Can Anyone See The Thai Tutsis And Thai Hutus?

[LaoPo]

TELL IT AS IT IS

Can Anyone see the Thai Tutsis and Thai Hutus?

By Pornpimol Kanchanalak-Published on November 20, 2008

UP to a certain point in Rwandan history, the country's two prominent tribes, the Tutsis and Hutus, coexisted in harmony. Despite differences in lifestyle and division of labour, the two groups for several hundred years lived as one, speaking the same language, inhabiting the same areas, intermarrying, following the same traditions, and obeying the same king, a Tutsi. There were disagreements between the majority Hutus and minority Tutsis, but there was peace.

>snip< (I didn't post a large part of the article in "The Nation - Opinion" because it describes the history of the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda but the complete article is in the link, below)

The tragic history of Rwanda and the struggle to maintain the fragile yet costly internal political truce should serve as a lesson that the path of hatred leads nowhere but to a calamitous nightmare.

We Thais are now divided into our own Tutsi and Hutu camps. The animosity appears to have grown too deep and is beyond any rational remedy. We are heading towards a point of no return. Increasingly, the country appears doomed.

The seat and symbol of our political system, the Government House, is no longer the place from which our country is run. It is not only that the physical building and its vicinity has been violated; it is the crushing defeat of the spirit of democracy, respect for the rule of law, and harmonious coexistence commonly known as unity despite differences.

Some may say that the takeover was justified and inevitable, as it was the end result of having a government that had severely abused its authority and power while in office. For whatever reason this came to be, the fact remains that ours is an abnormal political situation.

Our Tutsis and Hutus have leaders who are prepared to go for broke, to fight the "Last War" - the one that ends all wars. On one side we have the publicly professed goal of protecting the institution of democracy, whose meaning is lost upon many of us. On the other side, we have a stigmatised, intelligent, versatile and resource-rich figure who says his back is against the wall and will use any means, and go to any lengths, to restore his "dignity", and in the process get back assets which he believes are rightfully his.

Both leaders have followers, many of whom genuinely believe in the righteousness of their respective paths. Vindictiveness replaces our usual give-and-take attitude. Fierce disagreements erupt, even within families and among close associates and friends - because everybody seems to be taking sides. More people who used to sit on the fence are abandoning their comfort zone and jumping into the fray. War has been declared.

Rwanda in recent years has shown the world the extraordinary lengths to which people are prepared to go to gain and hold on to power, and the result has been catastrophic. If Thais cannot learn from this lesson and continue on this unyielding path of hatred, we will face a self-fulfilling prophecy, one that has been whispered often these days.

There will be blood.

From: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/20...on_30088837.php

LaoPo

Edited November 23, 2008 by LaoPo

[siam4ever]

More people turned out for the marathon yesterday in Bangkok than the PAD protest. The fact is most Thais don't care who is waving the feminine napkins around or whose billions were seized by the military. Rain falls, rice grows and gangs fight; it is the nature of life.

[Ta22]

This is a classic example , when there is a off set of wealth and power.

since taksin - the balance is off set and party and player try to gain from this storm .

- while Tutsis & Hutus seem simliar in ways . , the thai problem is one that had been rooted . for a long while ,

it had been clam partly due to the good teaching and easy going way of the thai .

the mai pen rai lifestyle . but as people get blinded by MONEY . educated thai . come up with ways to kill the goose for the golden egg.

.

sad to see all this going on . i miss the thailand i saw 10 years ago .

but to speak out louding . this is all part of bangkok at the moment . whil ethe TV blasted with news .

life seem to go on as per normal in the smaller moo bann .

.

cos thai know in their heart . be it the new or old leader. there will alway be someone who choose to leech on the kind hearted .

[h90]

Tutsis&Hutus is a racist conflict.

PAD against Thaksin is people against corruption and abuse of power....

Something complete different.

[Ta22]

Tutsis&Hutus is a racist conflict.

PAD against Thaksin is people against corruption and abuse of power....

Something complete different.

" HOW NAIVE "

Is lway easy to blame someone for your Problem .

human is less responsible for oneself and prefer someone else to take the blame for our inability

" HOW SAD "

The world can alway do with less people like you the self rightous one , who choose to cut your path , instead of co-exisit .

[h90]

Tutsis&Hutus is a racist conflict.

PAD against Thaksin is people against corruption and abuse of power....

Something complete different.

" HOW NAIVE "

Is lway easy to blame someone for your Problem .

human is less responsible for oneself and prefer someone else to take the blame for our inability

" HOW SAD "

The world can alway do with less people like you the self rightous one , who choose to cut your path , instead of co-exisit .

What are you try to tell?

Thaksin wasn't corrupt and didn't kill people?

All the hundred thousands of supporter have a secret evil mission I don't know about?

Somchai has nothing to do with Thaksin and is a honest trustworth premier?

PPP didn't has anything to do with vote buying?

[LaoPo]

Tutsis&Hutus is a racist conflict.

PAD against Thaksin is people against corruption and abuse of power....

Something complete different.

I agree that the Tutsi/Hutu conflict is of a different nature and extremely complex but goes well beyond -just- ''racism'', unfortunately. It is not as simple as -just- racism, which is horrible enough.

And, there are similarities with Thailand as well....

"In the modern day, the difference between Tutsi and Hutu is often stated as that between those in commanding and subordinate social positions........Some Hutus own cattle and have important social standing. However, the Tutsi are the elite of the country, and people have been known to switch groups, reinforcing the idea that the Hutu and Tutsi labels are labels of class or caste rather than tribe or ethnicity as is usually portrayed by the media and militants on both sides..."

-Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Tutsi_and_Hutu -Origins of Tutsi and Hutu-

..rural and elite....where have I seen that before ?

However, I don't see a copy of the 1994 Rwanda genocide happening in Thailand, not even close. May Buddha and God forbid even one more death due to the ongoing clashes...

LaoPo

[JimsKnight]

Yeah, but Africa is Africa and Asia is Asia.

Different races have different styles.

All out warfare between PAD and the PPP parties, for example is very unlikely as it's not 'thai' way to do this

[kmart]

Oh, come on.... "Hutus vs Tutsis"...? That was genocide / mass murder on a grand scale.

The "red shirts vs. yellow shirts" shenanigans in Bkk right now in more reminiscent of "Its A Knockout", tbh.

[GuestHouse]

Keep your eye on the Nationalism thing.. if there is going to be tribalism it will be wrapped in a flag.

[CuriousGeorge77]

The only difference between the Tutsis and the Hutus is that the Belgians designated people as Tutsi or Hutu on the basis of cattle ownership, physical measurements and church records.

Its a shocking amd saddening but logical extension of the blue eyes expiriment... give some power over the others based on physique and chaos ensues.

Edited November 24, 2008 by CuriousGeorge77

[dave111223]

I don't see how it compares at all.

Hatred based on Political views VS. Hatred based on Race are 2 total different animals.

Any Thai person could wake up one morning and decide "I'm going to support XYZ party" and they would be welcomed by XZY party.

Do you think a Tutsi could one morning wake up and decide "I'm going to be a Hutu" and be welcomed by the Hutus?

Plus with Political disagreements you get the luxury of sitting on the sideline and "Having no opinion", "Maipenrai" etc...

Whereas you have to be either be Tutsi or Hutu; you can't say "I've decided to be neither".

Edited November 24, 2008 by dave111223

[tmd5855]

Keep your eye on the Nationalism thing.. if there is going to be tribalism it will be wrapped in a flag.

Tribalism wrapped in a flag, hhmmm, good expression.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. As the old saying goes?

At the end of the day its like any other conflict. The other side has "GOD", the "People", or doing it "for the people" on their side. Never do they say it's because they want power, money or influence..........................

One thing is for sure, two trains on the same track, on collison course.

None can veer off owing to the track, cannot slow down owing to mometum. Lets hope they run out of "Steam"

[Gravelrash]

Tutsis&Hutus is a racist conflict.

PAD against Thaksin is people against corruption and abuse of power....

Something complete different.

" HOW NAIVE "

Is lway easy to blame someone for your Problem .

human is less responsible for oneself and prefer someone else to take the blame for our inability

" HOW SAD "

The world can alway do with less people like you the self rightous one , who choose to cut your path , instead of co-exisit .

What are you try to tell?

Thaksin wasn't corrupt and didn't kill people?

All the hundred thousands of supporter have a secret evil mission I don't know about?

Somchai has nothing to do with Thaksin and is a honest trustworth premier?

PPP didn't has anything to do with vote buying?

You are the classic example of the one eyed fanatic. And what is more disturbing is that you seem to a a rebel without a cause so have latched onto one here in Thailand, something that has nothing to do with you. I would further hazard that you appear to have the fanatics simplistic view of events.

I think the article was suggesting it better if less black and the white fanatics like yourself salivating about a final confrontation and the more rational heads that are looking for a solution the better.

We have heard your tired rants ad nauseum. What is required is a compromise that all sides can live with until a better more permanent solution is garnered. He did this and they did that belongs in the schoolyard and not with a country's political stability, and by extension ALL the populations welfare.

[Briggsy]

Tutsis&Hutus is a racist conflict.

PAD against Thaksin is people against corruption and abuse of power....

Something complete different.

Or maybe not.

The elitist urban wealthy Chinks vs the poor downtrodden rural Laos.

[sassienie]

The power struggles in Thailand are mainly to do with class structure.

More so than this being political or race divisions, it depicts the deep rooted caste system here in Thailand, that most Thais except and do not acknowledge it exists, unlike in countries such as India and Pakistan.

Average Thais, only wish to plod on with their lives and not become involved in these power battles between the hierarchy, that will not make the slightest bit of difference to them, who ever gets in.

Equating the war between Tutsis and Hutus to the political crisis in Thailand, is total nonsense.

I have not seen any Hutus in Chiang Mai for years and the only Tutsis I know of, are at the end of my legs, 5 toes on each.

Edited November 24, 2008 by sassienie

[britmaveric]

Both are corrupt, so dare say its all a wash. No right/wrong - only shades of gray.

[womble]

Utter rubbish comparing the troubles in Africa with the divisions here.........

The fact is the division is between two sets of wealthy Thai's dominated by Chinesse immigrants on both sides.

One group of Chinesse immigrants though has been clever enough to give handouts to the poor majority many of which coming from issan and are true Thai's.

What is sad is the true Thai people are allways controlled by a chinesse immigrant minority most of which have been here only severel generations.

There was indeed a backlash severel decades ago which led to the chinesse changing their names to Thai sounding names.

The sooner Thaksins frozen money is confiscated for good, the sooner the country can go about getting back to normal.

As long as that huge amount is sitting in limbo then those that can benefit from it being released will continue to tear this nation apart.

Does anyone know the timeline and order of events for the money to be confiscated for good. They should use that money on projects in poor rural areas, building schools and hospitals.

wouldn't it be ironic giving the $ to the very people who were bought off in order for a tyrant to amass such wealth all the while claiming he was only in power to help the poor...........

[robee]

Utter rubbish comparing the troubles in Africa with the divisions here.........

The fact is the division is between two sets of wealthy Thai's dominated by Chinesse immigrants on both sides.

One group of Chinesse immigrants though has been clever enough to give handouts to the poor majority many of which coming from issan and are true Thai's.

What is sad is the true Thai people are allways controlled by a chinesse immigrant minority most of which have been here only severel generations.

There was indeed a backlash severel decades ago which led to the chinesse changing their names to Thai sounding names.

The sooner Thaksins frozen money is confiscated for good, the sooner the country can go about getting back to normal.

As long as that huge amount is sitting in limbo then those that can benefit from it being released will continue to tear this nation apart.

Does anyone know the timeline and order of events for the money to be confiscated for good. They should use that money on projects in poor rural areas, building schools and hospitals.

wouldn't it be ironic giving the $ to the very people who were bought off in order for a tyrant to amass such wealth all the while claiming he was only in power to help the poor...........

not informed and educated enough at this time on thai politics,but i do not belive what i read or hear on the news so i look for info on forums. read last evening more on thaksin but dont understand why he has so many loyal followers up here in issan.

[meom]

One group of Chinesse immigrants though has been clever enough to give handouts to the poor majority many of which coming from issan and are true Thai's.

What is sad is the true Thai people are allways controlled by a chinesse immigrant minority most of which have been here only severel generations.

True Thai people?? I guess anybody with a Thai passport is a true Thai people.

Most Thais with chinese ancestors would think of themselves as Thai first and if you go back several generations even the man at the top has some chinese blood.

[tomahawk]

Seems more like the bloods and the crips than hutus and tsustsis, or whatever they are. Except colors are red and yellow, instead of red and blue. I am only an observer in all this, and don't have a nickel in the outfit. But there are a few questions I have about this situation. Do the people on both sides of this issue have any clear ideology they adhere to, or are they just following a particular boss they are loyal to. And are any of the leaders of eithe rof these groups sincerely interested in the welfare of Thailand, or are they just the usual corrupt politicians looking out for their own self-interests?

Most of the Thai people I knonw have the opinion that the people involved should just go to work and they are just lazy people with nothing better to do than fight with each other.

[camerata]

We Thais are now divided into our own Tutsi and Hutu camps. The animosity appears to have grown too deep and is beyond any rational remedy. We are heading towards a point of no return. Increasingly, the country appears doomed.

The Nation has been promoting this "civil war" angle for a while now. It's a serious situation but it isn't as serious as The Nation would have us believe. It certainly isn't racial conflict. It has aspects of class conflict played out through proxies, but since it's well known that in Thailand "the country makes a government, the city breaks it," it only goes into uncharted territory if PAD and its backers ("the city") don't win.

[CuriousGeorge77]

The power struggles in Thailand are mainly to do with class structure.

More so than this being political or race divisions, it depicts the deep rooted caste system here in Thailand, that most Thais except and do not acknowledge it exists, unlike in countries such as India and Pakistan.

Average Thais, only wish to plod on with their lives and not become involved in these power battles between the hierarchy, that will not make the slightest bit of difference to them, who ever gets in.

[/b]Equating the war between Tutsis and Hutus to the political crisis in Thailand, is total nonsense. [/b]

I have not seen any Hutus in Chiang Mai for years and the only Tutsis I know of, are at the end of my legs, 5 toes on each.

You missed my post, didn't you. There are no real racial differences between Hutus and Tutsis. It was a label superficially applied by Belgium, and it was used to create a class of Rwandans who would support Belgium. The Tutsi's were given land and ownership in exchange for support, and the Hutus were given the short end of the stick. After a while, the Hutus got tired of stuck with the short end of the stick by the Tutsis (a.k.a. the upper class), and they fought back. And forth. And back. And forth.

[Plus]

I think the article was suggesting it better if less black and the white fanatics like yourself salivating about a final confrontation and the more rational heads that are looking for a solution the better.

Yeah, that what the article was suggesting.

BUT...

All this neutral/no-to-violence/compromise movements and groups have thier heads so high up their &lt;deleted&gt; that no solutions come out of them whatsoever.

They all spend hours pontificating how nice it would be if PAD and the govt ..... bla bla bla.

They can't stop Thaksin from controlling the government. They have no idea how, they don't want to even think about it, they pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

[siam4ever]

I think the article was suggesting it better if less black and the white fanatics like yourself salivating about a final confrontation and the more rational heads that are looking for a solution the better.

Yeah, that what the article was suggesting.

BUT...

All this neutral/no-to-violence/compromise movements and groups have thier heads so high up their &lt;deleted&gt; that no solutions come out of them whatsoever.

They all spend hours pontificating how nice it would be if PAD and the govt ..... bla bla bla.

They can't stop Thaksin from controlling the government. They have no idea how, they don't want to even think about it, they pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

It's hard to stop Thaksin from controlling the government, especially since that's what the preponderance of voters want. They didn't want Samak and his cooking shows, they wanted Thaksin. They don't want his brother-in-law, they want Thaksin. Put Chamlong and his pumpy rumpy boy Sondhi on the ballot and see how they score!

Edited November 25, 2008 by siam4ever

[Plus]

Yes, it is hard, but there's no other way.

The majority of voters might one day decide to sodomize their children - doesn't mean it should be acceptable.

Back in 2003 the majority cheered on during the drug war that left thousands of innocent people dead - the majority here is capable of truly awful things.

The "white" brigade has no solution to "people want Thaksin back" idea either.

[citizen33]

Yes, it is hard, but there's no other way.

The majority of voters might one day decide to sodomize their children - doesn't mean it should be acceptable.

Back in 2003 the majority cheered on during the drug war that left thousands of innocent people dead - the majority here is capable of truly awful things.

The "white" brigade has no solution to "people want Thaksin back" idea either.

What happened was wrong and there are no two ways about that. But if we want to understand why so many ordinary people supported the killings, there isn't much point in the hyperbole about thousands of innocent people. For the first time in my life I saw a man shot dead near a cafe in a mid-Isan town. Within a couple of days two friends of mine gave me first-hand reports of two others shot dead in local restaurants. All three were well-known local drug dealers. Despite my shock, neighbours I talked with had no tears to shed.

[Plus]

The Human Rights Commission has found 800 murdered people had no connection to drugs whatsoever.

That is not the point, however - the majority wanted it and there was no one in this country to stand up and put a stop to that senseless massacre. The point is that the majority doesn't automatically make it right.

And even that is not the point of my original post on current reconciliation attempts.

The "whites" all agree that Thaksin should be punished, regardless of the majority views, they just don't want to think how it could possibly happen.

[bassmaster50]

It seems people in this country like to use the word "democracy" alot, but don't really understand what ti means. Whether people like him or agree with him is not the point. The fact is Thaksin was legally elected by the people. All those who have followed him were elected by noone. They were self-appointed, or chosed by a few individuals with influence. If Thaksin were impeached in a legal proceeding, then it still could have been democratic. But that did not happen. The people chose Thaksin and unless there were a subsequent election and they chose someone else, it is not reasonable to assume he is not the leader they want.

[fresnoboy]

If you don't read a newspaper, you are uninformed,

if you do read a newspaper, you are misinformed.

Mark Twain