2008bangkok Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 (edited) Hi everyone, i have a problems which has all of a sudden got alot worse any any help would be much appreciated... i have been working for my company since July 07, in December last year they terminated my employment as i got a bit drunk at the xmas do..aftre much pleading they reinstated too back the termination letter me but made me sign a open dated resignation letter... Roll forward to this December and the the MD has had to go back to the UK for medical treatment, during this time the directors who have been taking care of the company have found out that the MD has basicly mismanaged the company and the fact that we dont have any customers they decided to liqidate the company..and they havent paid us for November yet either.. I dont know what has happened since between the MD and the directors but basicly i recieved a email from the MD saying that he was happy to accept my resignation as of 1st December.. so basicly they have decided to use that opne dated resignation letter that i signed the year before against me.... I responded that i haven't handed in my resignation as if i did that i would waiver my rights to any severance pay etc Today i recieve another email telling me that they have informed the BOI that i no longer work for them and that inturn they will cancell my visa..so i presume effectly now i have no visa. My questions are.. Can they use the resignation letter against me even though the directors already told us before hand they were closing the company and couldnt pay us November salary plus the fact that the resignation letter is dated 1st december(which they filled in) but the passport number on it is for my old passport of which i renewed last febuary, so surely the letter cannot stand??? can they cancel the visa even though they have outstanding salary that they still need to pay me.. The fact is that although they are liquidatin the company they are tryin to claw back some money by still trading and not paying their staff..not one person in the company has been paid for november yets.. The annoying thing is that i still have a company laptop and phone and they have said that as i havent given back them yet they cannot calculate my final salary which is a crock off shi-te as i have told them that when they have my cheque ready i will give them back their stuff... Any help on this would be very helpful..they have put me in a position where me and the family are fuc_k_d basicly and i have a newborn so i really want all my money as bear in mind that if it wasnt for that resignation letter i would be intiliteld to november pay, 30 day notice pay,,13month bonus pay and 90 days severance pay so i am fuming... Thanks in advance Edited December 13, 2008 by 2008bangkok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008bangkok Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Anybody??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Can they use the resignation letter against me... Probably. You signed this to get your job back and they held it over you as an all powerful control factor, I doubt there is anything that you could do to negate it's value. If the company does not have money, how could they pay you anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 My questions are..Can they use the resignation letter against me even though the directors already told us before hand they were closing the company and couldnt pay us November salary plus the fact that the resignation letter is dated 1st december(which they filled in) but the passport number on it is for my old passport of which i renewed last febuary, so surely the letter cannot stand??? can they cancel the visa even though they have outstanding salary that they still need to pay me.. The fact is that although they are liquidatin the company they are tryin to claw back some money by still trading and not paying their staff..not one person in the company has been paid for november yets.. The annoying thing is that i still have a company laptop and phone and they have said that as i havent given back them yet they cannot calculate my final salary which is a crock off shi-te as i have told them that when they have my cheque ready i will give them back their stuff... Thanks in advance OK, Ill bite... 1. Resignation letter, you have signed it...yes they can use it against you, irrespective of the passport number. 2. Yes, assuming here its your work permit, not the visa, they have cancelled, if you are on extension of stay, you may in fact be on an over stay now...you are suppose to be out the country within 24 hours, or pay for a 7 day extension. They cant cancel your visa, but they can certainly get your WP pulled. 3. If they are liquidating the company, you may wait a long time before you get any money out of them, granted, employees who have not been paid are classed as preferential creditors, ie you will get paid out first, but it can still take a long time, while the company is being wound up... To go back to your original question...you dont need cheap legal advice, you need proper legal advice, if you want to persue this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 2008bangkok, the way I see it the answers are yes to all of your questions. The fact the passport number shown on your resignation letter is not the same as of your current passport can simply be interpreted that you wrote the wrong number in your resignation letter. It does not invalidate the resignation letter. Your mistake was to write and sign that open-dated resignation letter. The alternative would have been for you to sign a statement agreeing to immediate dismissal for cause, ie without compensation, if you were found to violate again the same work regulation for which you were reprimanded after the “incident” at the Christmas part you mentioned. Failing that, your employer could have given you a written warning to the same effect and have you acknowledge receipt of the warning in writing. -- Maestro P.S. For cheap (free) legal advice, go to the employment department or labour court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think_too_mut Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 For cheap (free) legal advice, go to the employment department or labour court. As the saying goes, "Never buy from a rich salesman and never hire a poor lawyer". Getting drunk at Xmas - was it a company's party? If it was, the company provided the alcohol to the staff? Completely different situation, if they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008bangkok Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 well thanks for the advice on this..to be honest i cant believe this is the case...unfortunately this was a pre written letter just requiring my signature.. the letter goes 1st december Dear.. with this letter i bangkok2008 passport number 123456 herby submit my resignation from the Company Name. At your convinence, i willbe glad to discuss the reassignment of my work to others.. okay so you guys are saying that this stands but surely it doesnt mean that i am resigning as of that very day surely????i would at least give notice period??please dont tell me that it also means that resign of that very day and therefore my extension of stay woul dbe invalid...nobody would shoot the,selves in the foot like that?? Soutpeel..what does okay ill bite mean??? just asking for a bit of advice if thats okay.,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Reading between the lines I think it was not so much the consumption of alcohol but his behaviour while under the influence. Best not to press the OP for details as it makes not difference and just deal with the fact of the resignation letter as it stands. Signed is signed. -- Maestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 …with this letter i bangkok2008 passport number 123456 herby submit my resignation from the Company Name… “With this letter I hereby submit…” makes it immediate in the absence of a specific date. The “hereby” makes it immediate, even though it may look just like a repetition of “with this letter”. Take for example the pastor’s pronouncement to the wedding couple: “I hereby pronounce you man and wife”. -- Maestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Soutpeel..what does okay ill bite mean??? just asking for a bit of advice if thats okay.,. I’m not Soutpeel but I tell you how I read that: “I accept the challenge to try and offer some useful information” -- Maestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think_too_mut Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 it makes not difference and just deal with the fact of the resignation letter as it stands. Signed is signed. A signed resignation letter is valid only if it has been processed by HR. If not - it does not exist, it's void. An average lawyer can get it right. I have seen situations where managers were forced by MD to sign a letter that says "If one of my staff makes another human error, I will leave the company on that day". Three managers that I know of are still with the company, even after a spate of mistakes that brought customers down, 6 years on, in different jobs. (Japan). Their signed letter has never reached HR and HR have a responsibility to request "Performance Improvement Plan" of 3 months. Then, dismissal. Same is in Australia. As it is from what I can read from the OP, it was a judgement of one man against another. If the offence was so serious, no more stay at work. Fired on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Soutpeel..what does okay ill bite mean??? just asking for a bit of advice if thats okay.,. I'm not Soutpeel but I tell you how I read that: "I accept the challenge to try and offer some useful information" -- Maestro Exactly...the OP had posted..."Anybody ?".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 …A signed resignation letter is valid only if it has been processed by HR… I am sure it will help the OP enormously if you can indicate the name of the Thai law that stipulates this requirement and if possible give a link to an English translation of the law. Would you be so kind as to do him this favour? -- Maestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 okay so you guys are saying that this stands but surely it doesnt mean that i am resigning as of that very day surely????i would at least give notice period??please dont tell me that it also means that resign of that very day and therefore my extension of stay woul dbe invalid...nobody would shoot the,selves in the foot like that??Soutpeel..what does okay ill bite mean??? just asking for a bit of advice if thats okay.,. Yes it does.... It may not mean the day you resigned, your extension of stay was invalid, it would depend on the day the company gets around to telling the labour department,you have resigned...therefore, if they informed the labour dept the same day as your letter, and if you are on extension of stay, you have 24 hours to bail the country or go and get a 7 day extension for THB 1900. This is one of problems of extension of stay for employment, you have to tread very carefully, if you are planning on resigning as you need to get a plan in place prior to pulling the plug, or hope you have an employer who will keep you work permit going while you get a plan in place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think_too_mut Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 …A signed resignation letter is valid only if it has been processed by HR… I am sure it will help the OP enormously if you can indicate the name of the Thai law that stipulates this requirement and if possible give a link to an English translation of the law. Would you be so kind as to do him this favour? -- Maestro I am just telling what civilizations have in place to deal with situations like this. Thailand is not too far off. Did you not send the OP to the Labour Department? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008bangkok Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 (edited) hey guys thanks for the advice/debate.. I cannot belive that the word herby in a letter would assume that it was instant resignation without giving notice??????would it?? Bear in mind that this letter was 1 year ago and they are trying to stich me up so they dont have to pay severance notice and bonus's .. as the we are tryin got quote the law does the fact that they havent paid last months salary when i was working for them mean anything??? i am goung down labour place monday but would like a rough idea of the situation Edited December 13, 2008 by 2008bangkok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 hey guys thanks for the advice/debate..I cannot belive that the word herby in a letter would assume that it was instant resignation without giving notice??????would it?? Bear in mind that this letter was 1 year ago and they are trying to stich me up so they dont have to pay severance notice and bonus's .. as the we are tryin got quote the law does the fact that they havent paid last months salary when i was working for them mean anything??? i am goung down labour place monday but would like a rough idea of the situation First of all "hereby", does mean instant unless its attached to a date, as other posters have written Secondly whether it was a year ago, a month ago or a day ago doesn't matter...the document is legal, you have signed it and you havent retracted it, in this case the company would have to acknowlege the retraction in writing, which dont think you are going to get somehow..do you.. The first thing labour is going to ask you, have you resigned...you say..No...they contact the company, and they produce the letter, signed by you...doesnt look good does it ? This sounds like a complicated situation you are in, and you really shouldnt be taking legal advice on this from us "barstool lawyers" to even have a chance at getting anything out of this, you need professional legal advice. With that being said, this company is undergoing liquidation, so even if labour or a lawyer took on your case and you won, who is to say there is even money left in the company to pay you the full amount...generally with liquidations creditors only get so many pence in the pound (or in this case Satang in Baht) of what they are owed. You may have ideas that you can get the money from the owners or directors in their personal capacity, if this is a limited company which is being liquidated, you basically cant hold officers of the company for the "debts" run up by the company...A limited company is seen as a "person" therefore responsibility for those debts is with that "person" and not the officers of the company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farseer Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 (edited) You signed a resignation letter so that is it in Thailand, you don't have a leg to stand on under Thai law, you quit of your own accord and that is what the letter says. Your signature, so the case is closed. You can go and see anyone you like but it ain't going to change the facts. And as for getting last months pay, that will disappear along with the company and your work permit. Also, don't bother getting a lawyer as they will cheat you, they will happily take your money again and again, until you just give up and go away. Thai lawyers never stop asking for money, and over half the time never even bother turning up at court. Edited December 13, 2008 by farseer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manjara Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 I would have said that the letter would be the initiation of the contracted notice period, i.e. if you have a contract that states your notice period is 1 month, then the resignation would theoretically take that long. If it's a thai company, rather than a multinational and if you are employed under thai law, then I would not think you would have much chance of getting all the monies you might otherwise have been entitled to under, say, UK law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008bangkok Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 I would have said that the letter would be the initiation of the contracted notice period, i.e. if you have a contract that states your notice period is 1 month, then the resignation would theoretically take that long. If it's a thai company, rather than a multinational and if you are employed under thai law, then I would not think you would have much chance of getting all the monies you might otherwise have been entitled to under, say, UK law. thank you..somebody with a decent brain..anybody who is anybody would say that a letter of resignation regardless of whether it said herby would mean you will work your notice..unless you are soutpeel who seems to either know more about me than i have let on!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuyDow Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 I would have said that the letter would be the initiation of the contracted notice period, i.e. if you have a contract that states your notice period is 1 month, then the resignation would theoretically take that long. Contracts are simply agreements between two parties. If one party wishes to vary the terms of the contract and the other party agrees, then an amended contract has been agreed. In this case the OP effectively resigned with immediate effect and the company accepted this. The company could have insisted that he observed the original contract and worked his notice period but, obviously, they are not going to do this under the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 thank you..somebody with a decent brain..anybody who is anybody would say that a letter of resignation regardless of whether it said herby would mean you will work your notice..unless you are soutpeel who seems to either know more about me than i have let on!!! You asked.... Posters have offered you some very sensible advice/opinions, but because you dont want to believe/accept the advice, you insult them. OK...my last bit of advice....you dont have a leg to stand on with...walk away - best of luck for the future and hopefully you have learned a few things.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Mix1up Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 thank you..somebody with a decent brain..anybody who is anybody would say that a letter of resignation regardless of whether it said herby would mean you will work your notice..unless you are soutpeel who seems to either know more about me than i have let on!!! You asked.... Posters have offered you some very sensible advice/opinions, but because you dont want to believe/accept the advice, you insult them. OK...my last bit of advice....you dont have a leg to stand on with...walk away - best of luck for the future and hopefully you have learned a few things.. you idgit your not helping!!! >yes the company will agree that you didn't resign the company won't pull your wp the company will honor all the monies owing to you< see i know better awfully bloody cheap too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think_too_mut Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 You asked.... Posters have offered you some very sensible advice/opinions, but because you dont want to believe/accept the advice, you insult them. Now looks like boiler room staff and their management. Let them bite each others bums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggomaniac Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Could any assistance be obtained at your Embassy, not necessarily with any lost pay, with emphasis on 'lost'; however they might be able clear up the status of your visa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Post with flame deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ataloss Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Your visa is most likely a Non-Imm-O 'B'. Thus, exit Thailand, say at Mae Sot or wherever convenient, and re-enter immediately. You will get an automatic 3 month extension on a NonImmO visa, which should give you some breathing room. Someone correct me if the rules have changed. Been there,done.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 If he is on an Extension from Immigration based on his job he is probably on overstay already. If his work permit is now cancelled. If he is on a Non Imm Visa obtained from a Consulate then he will still be ok on the Visa side of things. He can also get a 60 day extension from Immigration to visit his family. If he needs a stop gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008bangkok Posted December 14, 2008 Author Share Posted December 14, 2008 (edited) If he is on an Extension from Immigration based on his job he is probably on overstay already. If his work permit is now cancelled.If he is on a Non Imm Visa obtained from a Consulate then he will still be ok on the Visa side of things. I am on a extension of stay based on the work which they insisited on..i knew one day that it come and bite me on the arse but hey... I think the general info from everyone is that i aint got a leg to stand on..while if thats the case i accept it, i dont think its very fair.. I dont however think that a resignation letter dated the 1st of December with the word herby in it would qualify instant resignation which is something i will look into.. It is however imaterial as people have pointed out that if the company doesnt have the money they cant pay but it doesnt help feeling piss)d off that they wont pay you for you salary from November... Now it looks like im going to have to do the trip to Laos Does anybody know how i stand regarding handing company property back if they havent paid me??? Does that become theft or not?????? All of your help has been very thankful including soutpeel Edited December 14, 2008 by 2008bangkok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008bangkok Posted December 14, 2008 Author Share Posted December 14, 2008 If he is on an Extension from Immigration based on his job he is probably on overstay already. If his work permit is now cancelled.If he is on a Non Imm Visa obtained from a Consulate then he will still be ok on the Visa side of things. He can also get a 60 day extension from Immigration to visit his family. If he needs a stop gap. Really..can i get a 60 day extension without leaving the country and without having to get 7 day??how woul di get that and how much does it cost?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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