ยำแซ่บ

[kriswillems]

I sometimes go to eat in ยำแซ่บ (shop/restaurant with Isaan style food that you can find in shopping malls all over Thailand) and I've always wondered why they put mai eek on แซบ. Does anyone know?

[Jay_Jay]

I sometimes go to eat in ยำแซ่บ (shop/restaurant with Isaan style food that you can find in shopping malls all over Thailand) and I've always wondered why they put mai eek on แซบ. Does anyone know?

You're right - according to the rules, แซบ would be a falling tone naturally. The thing is, when you say it in Thai, it's an irregular pronunciation - it's a short vowel sound - แซ็่บ ... Whoever brought it into the common Standard Thai marketing lexicon first probably thought that throwing a ็ in there made it look too foreign - but knew that a short dead low class vowel needed to have a mai ek to make sure that it falls.

Another anomaly is the irregular pronuciation of น้ำ .. this one is the other way round. อำ is usually short, but in this case it comes out as น้าม

[kriswillems]

Thanks. I didn't know it's pronounced with a short vowel.

[DavidHouston]

I sometimes go to eat in ยำแซ่บ (shop/restaurant with Isaan style food that you can find in shopping malls all over Thailand) and I've always wondered why they put mai eek on แซบ. Does anyone know?

For an extensive discussion on this question, please see:

http://www.thai-language.com/ubb_cgi/ultim...43;t=000426;p=1

[tgeezer]

I sometimes go to eat in ยำแซ่บ (shop/restaurant with Isaan style food that you can find in shopping malls all over Thailand) and I've always wondered why they put mai eek on แซบ. Does anyone know?

For an extensive discussion on this question, please see:

http://www.thai-language.com/ubb_cgi/ultim...43;t=000426;p=1

แซบ is a word in regional language, need the RID have made an entry for it at all? The fact that they did means that they did someresearch and concluded that it was แซบ . To show how it is currently rendered in the Isaan region they could have put แซ็่บwhich they chose not to do. As far as I have read it is used in names of restaurants, maybe the owners feel that the RID is wrong and this spelling is a demonstation of their proprietary interest in the Isaan Language which they feel usurped by the RID.

Unfortunalely it does no more than indicate that although the vowel length is known, for the tone, help is needed! More charitably maybe, as Nan says the short vowel is so ingrained that seeing แซบ Isaan people actually want to say แซ๊บ and are not at all confused by อ่ . I am surprised that the programme allowed อ็่ I wonder if it is legitimate.

Tried to edit this thought instead of but it got ruined think because I edited in 150% and it was first written at 100% first word should be แซ็่บ

Edited January 13, 2009 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

be แซ็่บ

this font is awful. แซ็่บ อ็่ oh it is alright now, I couldn't see อ่ it was alright before I edited

[meadish_sweetball]

As far as I know, it's not allowed to combine the vowel shortener with a tone mark, even though that would indeed be a more obvious way of writing it. I could be wrong about this but I believe it is what I have learned.

[kriswillems]

So the word is pronounced with a short vowel and falling tone, right?

I've also learned that a vowel shortener can not be combined with a tone mark. I wonder who ever invented this limitation, because it leads to confusion (and it's not useful for anything).

[tgeezer]

So the word is pronounced with a short vowel and falling tone, right?

I've also learned that a vowel shortener can not be combined with a tone mark. I wonder who ever invented this limitation, because it leads to confusion (and it's not useful for anything).

A case of 'two ไม้'s dont make a write.'

The RID make the rules. The reason is that the RID have chosen to put in the Isaan word for which Central Thai has a word อาร่อย If people in Isaan say แซ็่บ then why not show the fact and then they can change all the restaurant names. It seems to be a one off, although another board mentioned แรด but not with the meaning of rhino(I wonder how they say แรด rhino ) so not a Cantral Thai word. the only reason for this topic is that it helps to reinforce our knowledge of the tone rules.

[Richard W]

So the word is pronounced with a short vowel and falling tone, right?

I've also learned that a vowel shortener can not be combined with a tone mark. I wonder who ever invented this limitation, because it leads to confusion (and it's not useful for anything).

The rule would seem to be that you have no more than one diacritic per syllable, which is not an unnatural rule. Maitaikhu can be recognised as a diacritic because when ordering alphabetically, you only consider it as a tie-breaker.

While you may argue that combining maitaikhu with another above diacritic is ugly, WTT 2.0 actually allows it to follow two long vowels - sara ii (อี) and sara uue (อื)! I presume this is for writing the short diphthongs one gets in Northern Thai, though usually maitaikhu is apparently written on the following consonant, as in เขีย็ด and เขือ็ด in transliteration of a list of Tua Mueang vowel-consonant combinations. I say 'apparently' because this may properly just be a matter of the marks on one consonant invading the airspace of the next one. Tonemarks sometimes also appear to the right of above vowels!

With sara e, there is the old generally sound rule in closed syllables that in native words it is short and in Indic loan words it is long and needs no tone mark, so there should be no ambiguity - short with maitaikhu or a tone mark, otherwise long. The only regular process for getting tonemarks on Indic loan words applies to open syllables, as in เสน่ห์ [L]sa[L]nee. There are exceptions, such as native เหลน [R]leen and Khmericised เพชร [H]phet. However, changes in vowel length and loanwords have messed up this simple state of affairs, which did not apply to the other two vowels for which one may use maitaikhu, so now the restrictions on the use of maitaikhu are indeed a nuisance.

[Indra]

And my Thai teacher will simply explain that it is a ยกเว้น (exception)

Just like when you read ก็ (gor), which actually should be written as ก้อ

[tgeezer]

The curriculum teaches that ก็ is actually เก้าะ shortened.

Is there any need to use words which we have to look up in the dictionary? 'diacritic'; in fact having looked it up I don't think ไม้ไต่คู้ is one of those because it has nothing to do with tones or letters it applies to the vowel. So using your argument, although 'diacritic' does not appear in my English Thai dictionary it seems to fit ไม้วรรณยุกต์, so you would be using only one diacritic.

Am I being too pedantic?

Having written that I wondered if there were any diacritics at all, and looked it up again to be sure. Is ไม้วรรณยุกต์ considered to alter the value of a letter? I suppose it may because marks 1&2 indicate tones 2&3 respectively in the case of low class consonents.

Edited January 15, 2009 by tgeezer

[meadish_sweetball]

Is there any need to use words which we have to look up in the dictionary?

Why this aversion to learning new words? To avoid having to consult physical dictionaries, try this:

Type define:diacritic into the Google search box and click on the 'Search' button.

[tgeezer]

Quote

Maitaikhu can be recognised as a diacritic because when ordering alphabetically, you only consider it as a tie-breaker.

My objection is not to learning new words but the use of them, for 'look up in the dictionary' you could read 'have to Google' it changes nothing if you still can't understand what is being said. I have done both and still don't understand the above sentence, Do you? how does Maitaikhu becoma a diacritic because it is only considered as a tie-breaker. I can find nothing after Google or from the OED which refers to tie-breaking defining a diacritic. My post argues that since it applies to the vowel it is not a diacritic. I thought I was being quite reasonable, I need it in plain English, or Thai where I expect to have to look up new words.

Edited January 15, 2009 by tgeezer

[meadish_sweetball]

In retrospect I think I have to concede you are right, although for me 'tie breaker' was the word I needed to look up.

The way I understand Richard W, is that Maitaikhu is only used in the very last stage of alphabetic sorting (being the tie breaker casting the decisive vote between word X and word Y if they are otherwise similar).

Hence it is not an alphabetic (consonant or vowel) and what is left then, unless we create a specific group for it, is to assign it to the larger group of diacritics.

[tgeezer]

In retrospect I think I have to concede you are right, although for me 'tie breaker' was the word I needed to look up.

The way I understand Richard W, is that Maitaikhu is only used in the very last stage of alphabetic sorting (being the tie breaker casting the decisive vote between word X and word Y if they are otherwise similar).

Hence it is not an alphabetic (consonant or vowel) and what is left then, unless we create a specific group for it, is to assign it to the larger group of diacritics.

It appears that the proffesionals definition of a diacritic is anything which is not a consonent or a vowel used to write a word, probably goes all the way back to cuneiform when it meant something completely different.

It is a problem when English grammar is used to learn Thai, it has always seemed strange that people are happy to mix the two and how this can possibly help them in the street. For those of us who are not interested in specialised terms in English we would learn more if we had a discussion about whether they were เครื่องหมาย or สัญลักษณ์ rather than one on diacritic. Its not your fault just the way the forum goes, I shouldn't really comment when I don't agree I suppose, but as I have said before I have learned or relearned more English here than Thai.

[kriswillems]

Thanks Richard, for the detailed explanation and thanks Meadish and tgeezer, for helping me understanding it.

Today I went to the same mall and I noticed that besides barbecue plaza there's always a suki restaurant called จุ่มแซบฮัท. Just to confuse me even more they choose the mix up 3 languages (Thai / Isaan /English) and this time แซบ is written like in the RID.

Edited January 15, 2009 by kriswillems

[Richard W]

So using your argument, although 'diacritic' does not appear in my English Thai dictionary it seems to fit ไม้วรรณยุกต์, so you would be using only one diacritic.

Diacritic is a bit more general than ไม้วรรณยุกต์ 'tone mark', though I have also seen the word used to mean 'register mark', as on page 21 of a presentation on Chong orthography - note that they are using karan as a register mark!

How does Maitaikhu become a diacritic because it is only considered as a tie-breaker?

In two ways:

1) The use of 'diacritic' as a generalisation of 'accent' in technical discussions of sorting, e.g. the discussion of 'levels' in the Unicode Collation Algorithm. Note that this does not work in some languages, e.g. Swedish, where some combinations of vowel and accent are treated as indivisible letters.

2) I was also led to the term by its use in describing the computer layout of Thai characters and in some discussions of Thai collation, e.g. this, though perhaps I should have been more aware that they formally distinguish tone marks and diacritics.

[tgeezer]

So using your argument, although 'diacritic' does not appear in my English Thai dictionary it seems to fit ไม้วรรณยุกต์, so you would be using only one diacritic.

The point I was making is, that since Thai does not have a word for diacritic (yet) and the English dictionary describes it as changeing the value or tone of a consonent, it may apply in the case of low class consonents, however I concede the point on the groounds that linguists have their own techi. terms.

Diacritic is a bit more general than ไม้วรรณยุกต์ 'tone mark', though I have also seen the word used to mean 'register mark', as on page 21 of a presentation on Chong orthography - note that they are using karan as a register mark!

e.g. this, though perhaps *I should have been more aware that they formally distinguish tone marks and diacritics.*

** just noticed this I will read it again.

this Makes my point very well; for you chaps the language is an academic thing which is a feat of memory beyond most people of my age. It involves learning a whole new language which you have absorbed over a long period and possible can apply to a variety of languages making the learning of it worthwhile. For example: นฤคหิต or หยาดน้ำค้าง (ํ) rendered as Nikhahit possibly because that is how it is Japanese, Sanscrit, Pali, Khymer or whatever only confuses.

It is linguists who are responsible for naming the tones mid, high, falling etc. which is not what they are called in Thai and it was superfluous as a learning tool, although I concede probably vital linguistically. I don't blame you for this, we are stuck with it, just making my point that learning can be a lot simpler than it is on a specifically Thai forum.

Apologies for the queer rendering of my replies and the colouring of yours I have tried to edit without success so reading it requires work.

Edited January 16, 2009 by tgeezer

[Richard W]

For example: นฤคหิต or หยาดน้ำค้าง (ํ) rendered as Nikhahit possibly because that is how it is Japanese, Sanscrit, Pali, Khymer or whatever only confuses.

So who chose to call it นิคหิต in TIS 620-2533? The name 'ni(k)khahit' comes from Thai - only Thai and Lao have an aspirated consonant in the name - the cross-script version of the name is 'niggahita'. (Sanskrit 'anusvara' is a much commoner name for the same thing when talking across scripts.)

[tgeezer]

For example: นฤคหิต or หยาดน้ำค้าง (ํ) rendered as Nikhahit possibly because that is how it is Japanese, Sanscrit, Pali, Khymer or whatever only confuses.

So who chose to call it นิคหิต in TIS 620-2533? The name 'ni(k)khahit' comes from Thai - only Thai and Lao have an aspirated consonant in the name - the cross-script version of the name is 'niggahita'. (Sanskrit 'anusvara' is a much commoner name for the same thing when talking across scripts.)

You beat me to it. although as I would expect with a more scholarly argument; I was browsing my dictionary this morning and found that นิคหิต is actually less obscure(closer to the Pali) than นฤคหิต The school books don't have everthing in them at least not at the level of primary.

As an after thought I took a look at the reference and as expected don't know what I am looking at but found นิคหิต for which no symbol is given as is the case with the รูปวรรณยุกต์ probably a good reason for it.

Edited January 17, 2009 by tgeezer

[5tash]

So the word is pronounced with a short vowel and falling tone, right?

I've also learned that a vowel shortener can not be combined with a tone mark. I wonder who ever invented this limitation, because it leads to confusion (and it's not useful for anything).

A case of 'two ไม้'s dont make a write.'

The RID make the rules. The reason is that the RID have chosen to put in the Isaan word for which Central Thai has a word อาร่อย If people in Isaan say แซ็่บ then why not show the fact and then they can change all the restaurant names. It seems to be a one off, although another board mentioned แรด but not with the meaning of rhino(I wonder how they say แรด rhino ) so not a Cantral Thai word. the only reason for this topic is that it helps to reinforce our knowledge of the tone rules.

I think that the reason แซบ is found in a Thai dictionary is because it is a Thai word, an ancient Thai word. Many Lao/Isan words can be traced back to the Sukhothai era and are considered to be ancient Thai and can be found in a Thai dictionary. In fact if you read the Inscription of King Ramkamhaeng the Great a lot of those words are currently used in Lao/Isan and not central Thai. But are considered to be ancient Thai.

I would say that แซ่บ is ภาษาพูด (spoken language), which can be seen in chatrooms or SMS's (and Isan restaurants). I think แซ่บ spoken with a shorter syllable has become a trendy way for Thais to pronounce this word, especially the younger generation.

There are a number of words which are pronounced with a short vowel although the spelling indicates a long vowel:

เล่น

เล่ม

เก่ง

แห่ง

I'm sure there's more.

[mangkorn]

I think that the reason แซบ is found in a Thai dictionary is because it is a Thai word, an ancient Thai word.

Thanks for that, 5tash. It is somewhat disconcerting that "formal" Thai has relegated so many genuine words to the classification of "vulgar," when in fact they are the original speech of this land (e.g., กู, มึง, etc.).

Of course, average Thai people use such words every day. And why not?

[tgeezer]

So the word is pronounced with a short vowel and falling tone, right?

เล่น

เล่ม

เก่ง

แห่ง

I'm sure there's more.

[/quote

There seems to be something going on doesn't there? I don't think I should go into too deeply even if I were capable; there are many apparent inconsistencies for which a possibly false explanation can be formulated. This appears to follow the one mark above a letter rule, and in the other direction; short to long นำ nam น้ำ naam, also; best not to 'tink to mut'.

I 'dined' at a mutual fiends house where I receive instruction occasionally from a Thai language teacher. She doesn't speak English but is good at explaining and she stated that a genuine Thai word is, only one sylable and ends with ตัวสะกดตรงแม่ I was happy at the time because I was unprepared and thougt she meant all eight endings but only the initial letter for which the group is titled, ie. แม่ กก 'ก' counts but not ขคฆ Now on reflection if she said ตัวสะกดตรงแม่ it means only four แม่กม,แม่กง,แม่เกย,และแม่เกอว which seems few. I will look in the RID but am off to golf practise now, but something for someone to chew on if bored.