How To Gain Parental Rights As A Father When Not Married

[Chanok]

Let me get this strait;

If the father legalise the child by making a petition to the court, will the father then have shared custody of the child?

-If yes, does that mean that the father and mother have 50/50 custody?

If not then what does it take to get that equally shared custody? What documents are needed?

[Mario2008]

Let me get this strait;

If the father legalise the child by making a petition to the court, will the father then have shared custody of the child?

-If yes, does that mean that the father and mother have 50/50 custody?

If not then what does it take to get that equally shared custody? What documents are needed?

He will be the legal father of the child. But the mother can contest that the father will also get custody of the child, together with her. It is not automatically granted.

[MikeyIdea]

Very interesting thread. I must question the correctness of one or two things I read though.

First my own information: I am not married and have a 5 year-old daughter born at Lat Prao hospital and of course, they were kind enough to do the registration for me too. Now that doesn't matter all that much for me because since I am Swedish, the embassy require me to get a certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) in order to make my daughter a Swedish citizen anyway. The Swedish Embassy is adamant that the certificate of fathership (bai rapp long boot) must be issued by juvenile court (saan yawachonn lae krabkroa). I went to Amphor in Muang Loei with the mother and easily got the bai rapp long bott there in 2-3 hours for a hundred bath or so, without going to court.

I went all the way to the district Attorney (ajjagarn) in Loei to try to go to court, nice guy by the way, and he told me that he would be happy to allow my case to go to court for the reason of clarifying that there is no "higher document" to prove that I am the father of my daughter in Thailand and to prove the validity of the documents I showed him, but not to get a certificate of fathership, because that I already had

Over to the Question:

I read in this thread that it is not possible to legitimize your child before she is 7 years old. I understand this as not being correct, or at least not followed in many cases. The district attorney was very clear to me that the documents I got proved that I was the father of my daughter according to Thai law. My Daughter was not even 3 years old when I did it. Yes, the mother signed but no one asked my daughter, they all just played with her

There are many Swedes in Thailand, most of us get the bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership) long before the child is 7 years old (by taking it to juvenile court), hence, it should be very possible according to Thai law to get the certificate of fathership before the child is 7 years old

Comment?

May I suggest that you "translate" the document names to English when you post, petition the court according to section 15480… I think that means to take the case to saan yawachonn lae krabkroa (juvenile court) and get bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership). Is this correct?

Some info to add

Petitioning the court according to section 15480 takes 3 months or so in Bangkok, always an option. I have a Thai-Thai couple friend going through this right now. It is actually fairly common, as many Thai's don't know the law too, and don't worry until it already has become a problem. The words that the lawyer uses is funny to listen too... "kaa do lae bott" (ask to take care of child). You go to court to ask to take care of your own child

Oupps

I tried to fly abroad with my daughter but without mummy (she had already gone through in another queue) and customs required my daughters birth certificate even though I showed them her Thai passport. I managed to clear this by being polite and smile and speak in quick and good Thai, arguing that I would never have been able to get the passport without the birth certificate in the first place. I feeling is that I would not have been allowed to take my Thai daughter out had I not been able to say that the mother has already gone through in the queue for Thai's

Mikey

Edited October 19, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

May I ask for another clarification - I am sure that I one day will need it... It's going to happen...

OK, I am legally the father of my daughter, we are most likely going to get shared custody 50-50 when we brake up.

1) Since we both are legal parents, isn't it so that while we both in practice can change Tabien Baan of the child, none of us have the right to do so without the other parents'consent? What if the mother goes and change without the father knowing? Can the father sue? As sad as it is but in custody cases, it is not uncommon that a strategy to use could be to make the other side look bad, from a legal standpoint...

2) Suppose that Tabien Baan is in Bangkok but the mother goes and changes it to her home village up-country without the fathers consent. Where would the father sue? I would assume where the crime took place which is in Bangkok but is this correct? Or would the father have to sue at new address?

3) Mario writes: There is also no law against parental abduction in Thailand. In case of trouble, the only way to go around it is to file for sole custody.

I assume the most likely case, the one that could happen to me in the future...: Both parents are legally recognized and have shared custody 50-50. The mother has no right to take the child up-country but she does so anyway. OK, the father can sue of course but sue for what? If parental abduction does not exist, then there is no kidnapping case. The father's only option is to sue for sole custody you write but on what grounds would he sue? Not being allowed to be with his child?

4) What about paying for the lawyers costs in cases like these? Who would have to pay the bill in the examples above? Can a father at least expect to get 50% of the bills awarded?

5) If there is such a thing as "court decided that since mummy broke the law by say e.g. taking child up-country without fathers consent, she should pay half of the lawyers costs for daddy", and here it comes - She doesn't pay. Now, can Daddy use the fact that mummy doesn't pay and sue? Can daddy use the fact that mummy is in debt to gain advantage and perhaps get more than 50% custody?

Mikey

Edited October 19, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Mario2008]

I read in this thread that it is not possible to legitimize your child before she is 7 years old. I understand this as not being correct, or at least not followed in many cases. The district attorney was very clear to me that the documents I got proved that I was the father of my daughter according to Thai law. My Daughter was not even 3 years old when I did it. Yes, the mother signed but no one asked my daughter, they all just played with her

There are many Swedes in Thailand, most of us get the bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership) long before the child is 7 years old (by taking it to juvenile court), hence, it should be very possible according to Thai law to get the certificate of fathership before the child is 7 years old

Comment?

Mikey

There are three ways of legitimising a child:

1. at birth

2. by declaration at the amphur

3. by petitioning the court.

Only when you want to make a declaration of the fathership at the amphur does the child need to be 7 years or older, as also the child needs t make a statement about aho his/her father is.

[mjperry]

There are three ways of legitimising a child:

1. at birth

2. by declaration at the amphur

3. by petitioning the court.

Only when you want to make a declaration of the fathership at the amphur does the child need to be 7 years or older, as also the child needs t make a statement about aho his/her father is.

Seems immigration in Bangkok don't view me registering the birth of my son myself as legitimising his birth. They said I couldn't get an annual extension to my Non-Imm O based on having a Thai son with his birth certificate and told us to go to the amphur and court to get him legitimised. That's buggered my plans if can't do that until he's 7 years old. They're suggestion, get married, if that's the case then sod 'em we're moving out of Thailand as soon as plans are made. Why should we be forced to get married just for this?

Martin

[Mario2008]

May I ask for another clarification - I am sure that I one day will need it... It's going to happen...

OK, I am legally the father of my daughter, we are most likely going to get shared custody 50-50 when we brake up.

1) Since we both are legal parents, isn't it so that while we both in practice can change Tabien Baan of the child, none of us have the right to do so without the other parents'consent? What if the mother goes and change without the father knowing? Can the father sue? As sad as it is but in custody cases, it is not uncommon that a strategy to use could be to make the other side look bad, from a legal standpoint...

2) Suppose that Tabien Baan is in Bangkok but the mother goes and changes it to her home village up-country without the fathers consent. Where would the father sue? I would assume where the crime took place which is in Bangkok but is this correct? Or would the father have to sue at new address?

3) Mario writes: There is also no law against parental abduction in Thailand. In case of trouble, the only way to go around it is to file for sole custody.

I assume the most likely case, the one that could happen to me in the future...: Both parents are legally recognized and have shared custody 50-50. The mother has no right to take the child up-country but she does so anyway. OK, the father can sue of course but sue for what? If parental abduction does not exist, then there is no kidnapping case. The father's only option is to sue for sole custody you write but on what grounds would he sue? Not being allowed to be with his child?

4) What about paying for the lawyers costs in cases like these? Who would have to pay the bill in the examples above? Can a father at least expect to get 50% of the bills awarded?

5) If there is such a thing as "court decided that since mummy broke the law by say e.g. taking child up-country without fathers consent, she should pay half of the lawyers costs for daddy", and here it comes - She doesn't pay. Now, can Daddy use the fact that mummy doesn't pay and sue? Can daddy use the fact that mummy is in debt to gain advantage and perhaps get more than 50% custody?

Mikey

1 and 2 you both can change it, I don't think you can sue the mother in this case. But better ask a lawyer.

3. You would sue on the base that the mother is unfit as guardian of the child, or that the relationship between both parents is such that it is not in the childs interest that the joint custody continues. The welbeing of the child will always be the central issue.

4 and 5 ask a lawyer.

The fact that the mother is in debt is not an issue, only the well being of the child. So the debt would have to touch the wel being of the child.

[MikeyIdea]

Thankyou very much for the answers Mario

Seems immigration in Bangkok don't view me registering the birth of my son myself as legitimising his birth. They said I couldn't get an annual extension to my Non-Imm O based on having a Thai son with his birth certificate and told us to go to the amphur and court to get him legitimised. That's buggered my plans if can't do that until he's 7 years old. They're suggestion, get married, if that's the case then sod 'em we're moving out of Thailand as soon as plans are made. Why should we be forced to get married just for this?

Martin

You are not forced to get married just for this and you do not have to wait until the child is 7 years old IF you take it to juvenile court (saan yawachonn lae krabkroa). I have a Thai friend going through this right now and it is no problem getting certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott) also if child is less than 7 years old. Taking it to juvenile court takes some 3 months in Bangkok.

Your problems with immigration I think is the old saga, if they don't know the law then it doesn't count. They don't know that as you as father registering the birth, the child is already legimised.

Marrio, you are right about that Amphor must ask the child too, I remember now. The officer in Loei did talk about asking the (not even 3 year old) child and mummy told her that Idea (that's my daughters name) is a big daddy's girl. That was enough. The 7 years can be flexible up-country

Mikey

Edited October 21, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

Mario, the reason why I ask what options I have if the mother change tabien baan to up-country is that I am locked working in Bangkok and also that I believe I would stand a better chance in a Bangkok juvenile court than in Loei

I assume that I must use juvenile court where the child is registered according to tabien baan when I register the complaint, is this correct?

Thanks

Mikey

Edited October 21, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Mario2008]

There are three ways of legitimising a child:

1. at birth

2. by declaration at the amphur

3. by petitioning the court.

Only when you want to make a declaration of the fathership at the amphur does the child need to be 7 years or older, as also the child needs t make a statement about aho his/her father is.

Seems immigration in Bangkok don't view me registering the birth of my son myself as legitimising his birth. They said I couldn't get an annual extension to my Non-Imm O based on having a Thai son with his birth certificate and told us to go to the amphur and court to get him legitimised. That's buggered my plans if can't do that until he's 7 years old. They're suggestion, get married, if that's the case then sod 'em we're moving out of Thailand as soon as plans are made. Why should we be forced to get married just for this?

Martin

If I'm not mistaken, you can get a declaration/form from the amphur that states who the parents of the child are and who has custody over the child. Otherwise petition the court to legitimise the child.

I'm not sure if immigration wants you to have sole custody over the child. It is a new regulation and it is still a bit unclear how they enforce this rule.

[Mario2008]

Mario, the reason why I ask what options I have if the mother change tabien baan to up-country is that I am locked working in Bangkok and also that I believe I would stand a better chance in a Bangkok juvenile court than in Loei

I assume that I must use juvenile court where the child is registered according to tabien baan when I register the complaint, is this correct?

Thanks

Mikey

I don't know about the court procedures and where you should file. You will have to aks a lawyer about this, who can also inform you if you can register a complaint.

Take into consideration that you will need to have a tabien baan on which to register the child. You might win, but still get nothing if you can't register the child anywhere in BKK.

[Chanok]

Is it true that Thai law says the child belongs to the father?

[Mario2008]

No. A child belongs to his/her parents and both have equal rights. When it comes to a divorce one of the parents can obtain sole custody. That is done by mutual consent or decided by the court. A judge takes the interest of the child at heart and makes a decision based on that.

[MikeyIdea]

Is it true that Thai law says the child belongs to the father?

No, absolutely not. Thai law actually gives the mother all rights unless specific conditions are fulfilled. In this thread, Mario and other knowledgeable guys give advice about these conditions. We can also see it like this; It is true that Thai law gives equal rights to parents, but the rights do not come automatically for the father, certain conditions must be fulfilled for him to get them

It is interesting to read how (well) Thai law tries to protect the child. But it is contradictory to western views and defies western common sense

Check http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf on page 15. Nowhere does it state anything about who is the property of who, only the legal child – father status

Section 1536 – Child born from parents married according to the law or within 310 days of marriage being voided is the legitimate child of the husband

Section 1537 – In case the mother divorces and marries again within 310 days, then the child is the legitimate child of the NEW husband. There are 2 speeds at which babies grow inside tummies in Thailand

But this really makes sense. Thai law tries to protect the child. The law is practically based, it does not care about the fathers birth right, it tries to protect the child.

If the marriage has gone sour and the mother and the father divorces before the child is born, AND there is another guy who marries the (pregnant) mother, then isn't it more likely that the child being the legitimate child of the new husband would be better for the child?

Imagine the old husband taking an active role in bringing up the child when the mother has a new husband…

Mikey

Edited October 22, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

Does anyone have a link to the Thai original of "Book 5 - Family" giving the Thai family law? The Thai original of this one http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf

Thanks

Mikey

[Chanok]

What are the conditions for the father to obtain shared custody / full custody of a child ???

Scenario;

Father

Let's say the father has no income, but has a substantial amount of money in a Thai bank account.

He's been living in Thailand for a number of years.

He speaks Thai very well.

Lives alone and no relatives in Thailand.

He comes from a country that offers world class education free of charge. However he wish to put the child in an international school in Thailand for a few years to begin with.

Mother

'Unfortunately' mother has a 100k monthly income from her business.

She lives in a large house (rented).

Many relatives but no parents. Some living with her in her house.

She will most likely put the child in a (worthless) public school.

She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time.

When father went abroad for 10 days she moved out of the house. Took everything with her and disappeared...

Of course there are many more details to it, but that's the basics...

Edited October 22, 2009 by Chanok

[MikeyIdea]

Chanok, the wellbeing of the child is the most important thing by far. Thai Family law puts the child first always

A Thai child has the right to his father and the father has right to his child. How long you've been here, how well you speak Thai and if you live alone or not is not that important. You need to prove that you have well contributed to the childs wellbeing before the mother took the child away (you need receipts too) and you need to prove that you are willing to and can contribute well in the future too. That the father has no income is a bugger, it helps if you can prove that you can well care for the child until adulthood, not only a couple of years.

A Thai child has the right to see her mother and a mother right to see her child too and you will never get sole custody unless mother agrees or has criminal record etc, so I don't think that talking about taking the child abroad in the future is going to be an advantage for you. The international school offering is a good bonus for you

Mother

Nice pay-check, if she can prove the income, then she can easily take care of the child. What she most likely will do in the future is irrelevant.

You need to check with a lawyer (specializing in custody cases) but from the one I have talked to and what I have heard about this, you should be able to get shared custody, you just need to prove what you have done in the past and that you want to, can and will do the same in the future.

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

Edited October 22, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Chanok]

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

That's the whole point by going to court isn't it?!

Interesting though that if she has (or will have) a criminal record I'll be able to obtain full custody.

[Mario2008]

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

That's the whole point by going to court isn't it?!

Interesting though that if she has (or will have) a criminal record I'll be able to obtain full custody.

A criminal record does not automtically leads to her being unfit to raise a child. The nature of the offense and how long ago will also play a role.

[UnEnlightened]

Ok, here is a 'hypothetical' question. Suppose you were to physically register the documents with the Amphur yourself thereby ensuring your name appears twice on the birth certificate. After reading this entire thread it seems that this is all that is required to legitimise your new born. As far as I understand it, this automatically entitles you to joint custody so long as the mother cooperates.

Now, if you were to return to your home country with your child but without the mothers knowledge or consent, have you broken any thai law? If you re-enter the country without the child, can you be arrested for anything?

[Mario2008]

Ok, here is a 'hypothetical' question. Suppose you were to physically register the documents with the Amphur yourself thereby ensuring your name appears twice on the birth certificate. After reading this entire thread it seems that this is all that is required to legitimise your new born. As far as I understand it, this automatically entitles you to joint custody so long as the mother cooperates.

Now, if you were to return to your home country with your child but without the mothers knowledge or consent, have you broken any thai law? If you re-enter the country without the child, can you be arrested for anything?

No, Thailand has no laws against parental abduction. But you would take matters in your own hand, which judges don't like and you could face a custody battle in the country you are leaving to. It is normaly not in the interest of the child to be held from one parent and can have serious effects on the welbeing of the child.

Nor can it be guarenteed that you will face charges in the country you are leaving to.

If a Thai judge in the meantime would issue sole custody to the mother, you could probably be arrested when re-entering the country.

[elektrified]

Thanks for the quick response Mario. I am listed as the father. As far as I can tell, the mother is listed as the one registering the birth. (She signed it.)

Unfortunately you didn't leaglise the child, so now your only option is to petition the court to be recognised as the father. if the motehr doesn't contest that shouldn't be hard. if you plan to marry the mother in the near future, that would automatically legitimise the child under Thai law.

Hi Mario,

Is it possible to "amend" the birth certificate so I can legitimize my child? Can we just request another be issued? Is there a stipulation between the parents or something?

We have of course already added the boy to the mother's tabien baan.

I just can't believe that they don't mention this "little" technicality when you obtain the child's birth certificate. I can't believe that I should have perused TV for legalities before doing something as simple as getting the child his birth certificate. My girlfriend said they never said a word about it when we were there.

Going to court seems ridiculous when there is no dispute.

Will this in any way cause a problem when we go to the U.S. Consulate in Chiang Mai to get the boy his U.S. Citizenship?

Thanks in advance.

[elektrified]

Hi again Mario,

As a follow up to my earlier post, if amending the birth certificate is not possible, how do we get this paper that is spoken about in this thread called certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott)? Where do we go to get it? I do not want to deal with lawyers, courts and the like to sort this out. My girlfriend will do all the legwork involved. Is it a form that can be obtained somewhere?

Thanks again for your advice.

[Mario2008]

When not done at birth, the legitimisation of the child can at a later date be done at the amphur if the mother and child declare that you are the father. But this can only be done when the child is atleast about 7 years old. If not, than the only option is to petition the court to be recognised as the father and legitimise the child. If the mother agrees to this it should not take that long, but there is no other way.

If it will be a problem towards US-citizenship of the child I don't know, it would depend on US law. People have no problem for instance requiring British nationality in cases like yours. Best inquire with the embassy or consulate staff.

[Chanok]

I've now talked to two different lawyers in two different firms.

A said that the child's mother has automatically full custody and B said that the father and mother share custody automatically.

A said that custody is almost never granted to the (foreign) father when going to court. B said that father can go ahead, if mother refuses to let

father see the child, and make a complaint and the court will rule that mother has to let father see the child.

BOTH A and B looked like I was an alien when I confronted them with the issue that Father must be on the BC twice. It was as if they didn't have a clue

what I was talking about when I tried to get that clarified. ?????????

B said Thailand doesn't have any parental child abduction law.

B also said that going to court will cost 80.000,- THB in starting fees. The initial letter to the mother asking her to sign a child custody agreement is +10.000,- THB.

<deleted> is going on here???????????????????????

The lawyers are just as confused as TV and it's contradicting advices from more and less enlightened members.

[Mario2008]

I've now talked to two different lawyers in two different firms.

A said that the child's mother has automatically full custody and B said that the father and mother share custody automatically.

The mother has sole custody, unless the father legitimises the child at birth.

A said that custody is almost never granted to the (foreign) father when going to court. B said that father can go ahead, if mother refuses to let father see the child, and make a complaint and the court will rule that mother has to let father see the child.

Many mebers have expierenced that the Thai courts are not biassed and will decide in the interest of the child.

BOTH A and B looked like I was an alien when I confronted them with the issue that Father must be on the BC twice. It was as if they didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I tried to get that clarified. ?????????

If you legitimise the child at birth, you can also legitimse the child later. But in that case you don't have automatic joined custody with the mother.

B said Thailand doesn't have any parental child abduction law.

That is correct.

B also said that going to court will cost 80.000,- THB in starting fees. The initial letter to the mother asking her to sign a child custody agreement is +10.000,- THB.

That depends also on the lawyers fee.

<deleted> is going on here???????????????????????

The lawyers are just as confused as TV and it's contradicting advices from more and less enlightened members.

My answers in blue.

Note that family law is a specialised area. You don't go to a lawyer specialised in labour law to get advice about criminal law. Make sure the lawyer you hire knows the relevant part of law. Another lawyer at the firm might be more specialised in that area.

[MikeyIdea]

What Mario2008 says is correct, I confirmed it with lawyer specializing in custody cases (or maybe it's more I confirmed the knowledge of the lawyer specializing in custody cases I contacted , anyway both say the same thing). <deleted> is going on is simple; Neither of the lawyers you contacted normally work in this area

One important thing to point out

The mother has sole custody, unless the father legitimises the child at birth, Mario writes

AT BIRTH… Those 2 words deserve capital letters. If you legitimize the child at a later stage (like I did), then you are the legal father but you do NOT (yet) have shared custody. That's a separate process

Edited November 12, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Chanok]

When going to court the judge will ask you about your income, right?

They question is what kind of prove of income will the court ask for?

And what if the income is from overseas, but I'm not doing any work here? Will they double check with my embassy?

If I have no steady income(not working), other than what ever money my family send me once and a while when I ask them for it, what will my chances be of 50% custody of my child?

Can I prove those money transfers to my Thai bank account?

[Mario2008]

When going to court the judge will ask you about your income, right?

They question is what kind of prove of income will the court ask for?

And what if the income is from overseas, but I'm not doing any work here? Will they double check with my embassy?

If I have no steady income(not working), other than what ever money my family send me once and a while when I ask them for it, what will my chances be of 50% custody of my child?

Can I prove those money transfers to my Thai bank account?

That is difficult to answer and you better ask a lawyer. What do you want, sole or joned costudy? It will make a huge difference if you want sole costudy or joined costudy and if the mother agrees or not.

[MikeyIdea]

It isn't too difficult to get shared custody 50/50 in Thailand. Sole custody is a totally different ball game

You need to prove that you have taken care of your child in the past, both practically and economically

Practically – You should be actively involved in her upbringing (as in taking her to school, teaching her homework, whatever depending on age)

Economically - It is not at all required that you are the sole contributor to the economy in the family for you to get shared 50/50 custody BUT; You need proof that you are contributing well, keep all hospital bills, school fee bills and all receipts.

And

You need to prove that you intend to do the same in the future.

The law is a bit different in Thailand. You have to earn the right to get custody as a father (unless you did it at birth). I assume that you have earned the right to get custody practically and intend to do the same in the future, so the practical side won’t be an obstacle at all. Only money left

The father of a friend of my daughter is going through a court process right now (Thai-Thai custody case). He is rich playboy style Thai and haven’t shown any income in his life. The father has been told by his lawyer to gather evidence. He has been out requesting new receipts from school, bills from psychiatrists at Samitivej etc. His lawyer does not bring the fact that he has never had any income up as a big issue, but he has 2 other things instead; 1) evidence through witnesses that he has been the only one contributing economically in the past and 2) receipts showing that he actually did pay some 40,000 bath per month for the kids the last couple of months before the mother took the children away and refused to let the father see them.

What about your case? Don’t know… You didn’t write if the mother will contest you getting 50/50 custody or not. I don’t know who the child is with now and how long the separation has been. You will easily get 50/50 custody if the mother does not contest of course. Always remember that Thai law puts the wellbeing of the child very much at the centre of things (more so than western courts). You need a lawyers advice but I would think that if you can prove that you have cared well practically and economically in the past and you can prove your past money transfers, then you should get 50/50 custody.

You can get print-outs from your bank of all movement in and out from your bank account, don’t know how far back. I can’t see a Thai court contacting your embassy in this case