Financial Crisis

[Naam]

It's a sad day when we turn to 'Realtors' estate agents for any kind of insight into which way the economy is going. They are agents, they make money on commission and they are rightly regarded as being the scum of the property business - lower down that banks and lawyers.

yeah right! and you are the offspring of Vishnu and Mother Theresa and take care of widows and orphans in Saudi Arabia financed from your own pockets.

[GuestHouse]

Naam, you perhaps need updating - I'm no longer in Saudi Arabia, I've been reassigned to a project in Thailand.

But please accept my apologies if you are or ever have been a 'Realtor' - My comment that these 'Percentage Agents' are "are rightly regarded as being the scum of the property business - lower down that bankers and lawyers". Is a widely held view and one that I happen to agree with.

Edited December 23, 2009 by GuestHouse

[flying]

that applies to your country, not to mine and not to a lot of other countries. in the Greatest Nation on Earth™ it is indeed legal to "hand over the keys" and walk away even if you have the means to pay your mortgage. but this is in my view fraud because not only the shareholders/depositors of the lender but also those who take mortgages in future will be hurt as they will have to pay with higher fees/interest rates to compensate for the loss caused by fraudsters. i am not a christian but i believe in the universal commandment embedded in all religions/faiths i know and that is "thou shallst not steal!" those who condone or even advocate it are in my book sorry low level creatures without character!

that banks and lenders are the "bad-uns" does not change morals!

To clarify....Yes I agree that it is immoral & the beginning of a slippery slope. For those who default as a means of increasing their position.

I once flambasted a guy on another forum that was bragging how he bought a bigger better house then defaulted on his primary residence because it was underwater on equity. That type of behaviour is immoral & lacks the good faith that was given with the mortgage.

The ones I was speaking of were the victims of predatory lending & now found themselves unable to continue in good faith the contract as written. It is sad too that many of these were still good risks in many ways if Zobama's hope for home owners was actually more than mere lip service yet again.

[midas]

it is clear Naam has has no clue. Just trying to cover his back by saying that in Germany you would go to prison if you handed back the keys of your mortgaged property and stopped paying, even if you were able to pay.

Please show the law that tells that Naam (Mr. conventional wisdom).

learn reading little poor boy or refrain from deliberate wrong interpretations and accept finally that i'm not doing any homework for you. now back to your dark corner where you belong. do not (repeat NOT) dirty it up. use kleenex!

this is what i said: "not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD!"

"it is clear" that you too have a criminal mind which condones fraud. do you also own a rice field or only a buffalo... perhaps with calf?

p.s. there is no such thing in a civilised country like "handing over your keys" and run away from debt.

Now we have advertising how to carry out FRAUD on the internet

" You Walk Away, LLC is located in San Diego and run by a team with over 50 years of combined real estate and legal experience. It is the objective of You Walk Away, LLC to empower homeowners who purchased their homes at the peak of the real estate market to take control of their financial future. We strive to help people understand their rights and know their options so they do not feel helpless "

http://www.uwalkaway.com/about.php

“ HALLELUJAH... AMEN. PRAISE THE LORD! THE RIGHTEOUS non-PARASITIC ONES THAT DON’T PROMOTE WEB SITES ABOUT WALKING AWAY FROM YOUR MORTAGE WILL GO TO PARADISE..”. :

[Naam]

The ones I was speaking of were the victims of predatory lending & now found themselves unable to continue in good faith the contract as written. It is sad too that many of these were still good risks in many ways if Zobama's hope for home owners was actually more than mere lip service yet again.

i agree that there must have been quite a number of real victims. but a lot of them who agreed that false incomes are entered in mortgage applications and knew that they will never be able to make the payments are as guilty as those who then approved the loans. one should also not forget that most of these applications were made by agents who pocketed fat commissions and passed the buck to the actual lenders.

[midas]

but this is in my view fraud because not only the shareholders/depositors of the lender but also those who take mortgages in future will be hurt

as they will have to pay with higher fees/interest rates to compensate for the loss caused by fraudsters. i am not a christian but i believe in the universal commandment embedded in all religions/faiths i know and that is "thou shallst not steal!" those who condone or even advocate it are in my book sorry low level creatures without character!

that banks and lenders are the "bad-uns" does not change morals!

Now it is my turn to tell you to “ get the fàck real “ Naam

According to you average Joe Citizen should still keep a stiff upper lip and give an example to the business

world about morals even after being financially sodomised……….you are too funny for words…………

Companies, Auditors, Rating Agencies and Regulators All Committed Fraud Which Helped Blow the Bubble and Sowed the Seeds of the Inevitable Crash

But the most interesting portion of Black's talk was the role of fraud by numerous businessmen in blowing and then bursting bubbles.

Making loans to people who are uncreditworthy, because they’ll agree they’ll pay you more, and that’s how you grow rapidly. You can grow really fast if you loan to people who can’t you pay you back.

In other words, the companies intentionally make loans to people who will not be able to repay them, because - during an expanding bubble phase - they'll make huge sums of money. The top executives of these companies will make massive salaries and bonuses during the bubble (enough to live like kings even even if the companies go belly up after the bubble phase).

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009...encies-and.html

Edited December 23, 2009 by midas

[Naam]

Naam, you perhaps need updating - I'm no longer in Saudi Arabia, I've been reassigned to a project in Thailand.

But please accept my apologies if you are or ever have been a 'Realtor' - My comment that these 'Percentage Agents' are "are rightly regarded as being the scum of the property business - lower down that bankers and lawyers". Is a widely held view and one that I happen to agree with.

no need to apologise GH. i have never been a realtor, nor a banker nor a lawyer but i hate generalising and i give a flying fàck what view is widely held. these views are equivalent to the views of those who spend their leisure hours on bar stools and claim "all Thais are lazy and all thai females are whores!" i was often enough as a tourist in Thailand before i settled here and i've heard these derogatory comments many times

[Abrak]

No wonder we are all in such a mess - They must be rea......lly desperate .

Lloyds Agrees to Pay $3.6 Billion to Raise $2 Billion

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...x1MFU&pos=4

What amazes me is that surely they could have raised this capital by offering say 6 or 7 percent to depositors like me, who would have been keen to move GBPs to them at that rate. At the moment Lloyds are offering very unattractive rates to savers. They above issue means that they are paying a massive 12% every year for 15 years. This is an incredible price to pay for capital.

There must surely be a very nasty can of worms behind this.

I have no idea whether the Lloyds issue is correctly priced but it isnt that exciting.

1) It is tier 1. capital (therefore essentially equity) where by Lloyds effectively has a put at par in 15 years.

2) It is subordinated to even subordinated debt (by definition) (therefore a comparison to Trimas 'senior' notes is hardly comparable as they will be senior to sub debt and may be collateralized.)

3) They are perpetual.

4) Redemption is essentially a put by the company at par (although there is a step up in the event of non-redemption.)

I find it difficult to accept that any investor would accept 6-7% returns on such a basis.

If you look at the Barclays issue last November, mostly to Middle Eastern investors it offered (roughly)....

1) 14% coupon over 10 years. Step up based on 14%.

2) A 4% upfront fee to the buyers.

3) The equivalent in value of free warrants at an exercise price at 198p (price subsequently reached 350p)

A deposit at Barclays is guaranteed by the UK Government.

[teletiger]

US 3rd qtr GDP gets revised down to 2.2% from 3.5%. Thats an astonishing 59+% overstatement of GDP growth!

But hang on, wasn't it universally accepted that stimulus added 2.2% to growth? Soooo, the US is still in recession?

Don't tell anyone, but John Williams at shadow stats reckons even the revision might need revising down.

Not to worry. Markets are up.

Merry Christmas (of whatever flavour) to all and sundry. 'And a happy and prosperous New Year.

Kindest regards.

[AlexLah]

it is clear Naam has has no clue. Just trying to cover his back by saying that in Germany you would go to prison if you handed back the keys of your mortgaged property and stopped paying, even if you were able to pay.

Please show the law that tells that Naam (Mr. conventional wisdom).

learn reading little poor boy or refrain from deliberate wrong interpretations and accept finally that i'm not doing any homework for you. now back to your dark corner where you belong. do not (repeat NOT) dirty it up. use kleenex!

this is what i said: "not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD!"

"it is clear" that you too have a criminal mind which condones fraud. do you also own a rice field or only a buffalo... perhaps with calf?

p.s. there is no such thing in a civilised country like "handing over your keys" and run away from debt.

There are ways to end a contract Naam, even in Germany. If you are not able to pay the monthly mortgage the house will be sold and the remainder of the balance needs to be payed off in whatever amount is reasonable, based on the then current income of the mortgage taker. No jail time here.

If you are able to pay but want to end the contract, same thing. House will be sold and you need to pay back the remainder (same scenario as above), no jail time.

Now the interesting part is when the bank sold your loan to some investor as an MBS or some other derivative. The above scenario's are decided in court (contract law). So when the original lender of the money sold your loan to some other party it means you have no contract (wet ink signature of both) with the 3rd party and the original issuer of the loan has no right to chase you for the remainder of the balance.

Therefore even in Germany you can ask for "The Note" when in court.

Whatever the outcome, you will not go to jail.

[lannarebirth]

Now the interesting part is when the bank sold your loan to some investor as an MBS or some other derivative. The above scenario's are decided in court (contract law). So when the original lender of the money sold your loan to some other party it means you have no contract (wet ink signature of both) with the 3rd party and the original issuer of the loan has no right to chase you for the remainder of the balance.

This is an interesting part Alex because I've spent a lot of time dealing in notes, mortgages and Deeds Of Trust. In almost all cases where my name is included in the document I will also have the words "or assignees" included. This would not require "wet ink" signatures of both the leinholder and the debtor to legally convey an interest in the debt to a new leinholder as the debtor has already signed their approval of conveyance. It would only require that the interest is conveyed legally.

It is so difficult to fathom that in the 60 odd pages of documents one has to sign to get a home loan that their wouldn't be some sort of lawyerese to that effect. I do agree that if that language is not present a valid contact does not exist between the homeowner and the current note holder. I guess the original seller of the note could buy it back at a discount and then foreclose. hmmm

[AlexLah]

So you agree that when a bank sold the loan to a third party (Without mentioning the assignees) the mortgage taker can just walk away, no matter in which country the contract has been made?

Just asking.

[lannarebirth]

So you agree that when a bank sold the loan to a third party (Without mentioning the assignees) the mortgage taker can just walk away, no matter in which country the contract has been made?

Just asking.

Walking away is a separate issue Alex. The ability to do that is conditional on the language of the note. There are loans that are no recourse whereby the securitized collateral is the only damages a lienholder may seek. Recourse loans can allow lienholders to attach other assets or income of the debtor. Inevitably it will end up in court.

The thing is when going to court, one needs "standing". If the new lienholder is not the lienholder of record they have no standing (from my understanding) and I am not aware how they may bring an action. I'm sure there are court cases being prepared now to address this very issue. It will be interesting to see how they turn out.

Edited December 23, 2009 by lannarebirth

[flying]

Uncle Sam's Collections Crunch and Record Deficits Continue; Press Coverage Virtually Non-Existent

[Naam]

There are ways to end a contract Naam, even in Germany. If you are not able to pay the monthly mortgage the house will be sold and the remainder of the balance needs to be payed off in whatever amount is reasonable, based on the then current income of the mortgage taker. No jail time here.

If you are able to pay but want to end the contract, same thing. House will be sold and you need to pay back the remainder (same scenario as above), no jail time.

Now the interesting part is when the bank sold your loan to some investor as an MBS or some other derivative. The above scenario's are decided in court (contract law). So when the original lender of the money sold your loan to some other party it means you have no contract (wet ink signature of both) with the 3rd party and the original issuer of the loan has no right to chase you for the remainder of the balance.

Therefore even in Germany you can ask for "The Note" when in court.

Whatever the outcome, you will not go to jail.

topic missed! as usual only bla-bla with out relevance! sit down. you will repeat the class. copy of this decision to your parents.

note to myself: do not (repeat NOT) waste any time to comment on bullshit presented by ignorants who do not understand what is discussed.

[flying]

Interesting

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24470953/Sprott-December

[AlexLah]

So you agree that when a bank sold the loan to a third party (Without mentioning the assignees) the mortgage taker can just walk away, no matter in which country the contract has been made?

Just asking.

Walking away is a separate issue Alex. The ability to do that is conditional on the language of the note. There are loans that are no recourse whereby the securitized collateral is the only damages a lienholder may seek. Recourse loans can allow lienholders to attach other assets or income of the debtor. Inevitably it will end up in court.

The thing is when going to court, one needs "standing". If the new lienholder is not the lienholder of record they have no standing (from my understanding) and I am not aware how they may bring an action. I'm sure there are court cases being prepared now to address this very issue. It will be interesting to see how they turn out.

Lana, examples here: http://www.endlessfrauddetection.com/modul...index.php?id=19

As you say you have spend a lot of time in this legalese stuff would you mind trying to answer a few questions I have?

They are related to finance and contracts but not necessarily with the "crisis" (but maybe they are).

[12DrinkMore]

So here it comes, face the facts all you UK and US tax payers. And probably more than a few western economies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/persona...clear-debt.html

A survey from the Department for Work and Pensions showed that some 25 per cent of workers intend to stay in employment for another few years after the official retirement age, with a further 12 per cent planning to work for “a long time” after this date, and another 6 per cent planning to work longer for another employer.

Well dream on you old dreamers.

Who is going to employ these 25% of the work force after the age of 65? Currently unemployment amongst the 18 to 24 year olds is at the highest ever level. And these are young, (maybe keen) and certainly prepared to accept a much lower salary than you older folks, who expect to carry on at the same salary level.

Just read that again, TWENTY FIVE PERCENT of the aging population NEED to work on because they haven't saved enough to support themselves. This problem is massive, and not yet hit the economy, but is now very imminent, as the "boomers" relentlessly march towards old age and do not have enough savings, or, and with this I have a little issue, consider that any investments and assets they have should be passed tax free to the brats. I have an issue because

1. I consider that the average person should save to support themselves through retirement and not consider it a right to pass on an inheritance to the brats, whilst the State provides.

2. I personally know here in Thailand more than a few "brats" waiting for the "Bangkok Pension", namely they scam money of the parents and basically are waiting until Mum and Dad are dead and expect to carry on getting pissed and playing in the bars on the proceeds of selling the "family home".

WAKE UP MUM AND DAD, if you are reading this. Go and spend the lot on yourselves....

Time to review finances in a major way for the next decade, starting in 2010.

[12DrinkMore]

This article has an extremely poignant view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columni...government.html

I could make some quotes but indeed the whole article is relevant.

I am beginning to hate this word "global", which is now being used for political actions, and of course, the spending of tax payers' hard earned cash, just because it is now "global" and so these damned "masters of the disaster" can continue to ensure they have some unnecessary global role and are able to suck the blood out of the productive workers and industrial companies, who actually make something we want/need to buy.

We are having our income forceably taxed to keep these globalised leeches in their self-important global positions.

Edited December 25, 2009 by 12DrinkMore

[flying]

This article has an extremely poignant view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columni...government.html

I could make some quotes but indeed the whole article is relevant.

I am beginning to hate this word "global", which is now being used for political actions, and of course, the spending of tax payers' hard earned cash, just because it is now "global" and so these damned "masters of the disaster" can continue to ensure they have some unnecessary global role and are able to suck the blood out of the productive workers and industrial companies, who actually make something we want/need to buy.

We are having our income forceably taxed to keep these globalised leeches in their self-important global positions.

Well I guess the tin foil hat guys have been warning NWO ( New World Order ) for some time now.

I guess the money changers would like that

Merry Christmas

[flying]

Hey 12D .......Looks like some on your side of the pond are speaking up.

Albeit in un-parliamentary language

Like one comment said....Too bad he wasn't talking to Brown at the time

[Naam]

This article has an extremely poignant view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columni...government.html

I could make some quotes but indeed the whole article is relevant.

We are having our income forceably taxed to keep these globalised leeches in their self-important global positions.

to

The Right Honourable 12D, Esq.

subject: personal pronoun "we"

Dear Sir,

since years Telegraph articles concern only people who use pliers to put on socks, underwear and occasionally condoms. puleeeeze... refrain in future to use the personal pronoun "we" if it only concerns you, respectively the global brave brigade of tin foil hat soldiers who wear pampers and sleep on rubber sheets. of course you are free to use the expression "we" by adding "except Naam™, his wife and his dogs".

your faithful and obedient servant,

Naam

[midas]

it is clear Naam has has no clue. Just trying to cover his back by saying that in Germany you would go to prison if you handed back the keys of your mortgaged property and stopped paying, even if you were able to pay.

Please show the law that tells that Naam (Mr. conventional wisdom).

learn reading little poor boy or refrain from deliberate wrong interpretations and accept finally that i'm not doing any homework for you. now back to your dark corner where you belong. do not (repeat NOT) dirty it up. use kleenex!

this is what i said: "not paying your debt when you are able to pay is FRAUD!"

p.s. there is no such thing in a civilised country like "handing over your keys" and run away from debt.

And I always thought USA was a civilised country

Anyway it’s not FRAUD because Newsweek say it’s “ the American Way ”

" It's not just happening in real estate. According to Standard & Poor's, through Dec. 18, 262 corporations had defaulted on bonds they had sold to the public, twice the total of 2008 and "the highest default count since our series began in 1981.

Or take amusement-park operator Six Flags, which filed for Chapter 11 because it couldn't make good on a $300 million interest payment coming due. The company didn't have the resources. But its biggest shareholders sure did ( what was that you said about shareholders being hurt Naam .....)

Strategic defaults are the American way, and I'm not talking about strapped middle-class borrowers who prefer spending money on vacations to staying current on their payments. Deep-pocketed companies, billionaires, and institutions that can afford to stay current on payments strategically default all the time. ”

Default Nation

If billionaires don't feel guilty about walking away from their debts, should homeowners?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/227941

Edited December 26, 2009 by midas

[flying]

Happy New Year

While You Were Sleeping… The Economy Collapsed

[midas]

Happy New Year

While You Were Sleeping… The Economy Collapsed

I am just trying to decide what will go broke first........a European country......could even be tiny Latvia

Dombrovskis: ‘we will just go bankrupt’

http://balticreports.com/?p=7167

or one of your states ?

Arizona's Coming Government Collapse - from Governor Jan Brewer

http://www.resistnet.com/forum/topics/ariz...source=activity

[Naam]

And I always thought USA was a civilised country

you thought wrong Midas, but you are excused. you have no idea because you never lived in the Greatest Nation on Earth™

[Naam]

If billionaires don't feel guilty about walking away from their debts, should homeowners?

if Nazis killed millions of Jews without feeling guilty, should you and me be allowed to kill each a single one?

[Naam]

I am just trying to decide what will go broke first........a European country......could even be tiny Latvia

you decide? you really must be a powerful man Midas. i envy you! what is your secret? ploughing rice fields with a buffalo? or separating grain and husk when harvesting?

i couldn't even decide what my dogs will have for dinner at Christmas Eve. they decided to share mine

[teletiger]

If billionaires don't feel guilty about walking away from their debts, should homeowners?

if Nazis killed millions of Jews without feeling guilty, should you and me be allowed to kill each a single one?

Will they be bankers?

Regards.

[midas]

And I always thought USA was a civilised country

you thought wrong Midas, but you are excused. you have no idea because you never lived in the Greatest Nation on Earth™

It is you that is wrong.......... lived and worked in LA for 2 years and visited at least 14 states with my work