Financial Crisis

[Naam]

this was good Keyser

and if as a species we don't even have the willpower to implement the basic necessary changes

to rectify the financial crisis itself ( as opposed to extend and pretend ) then there is Buckley's chance of making the

much much bigger sacrifices and changes to our lifestyles that will be needed to avoid some of the calamities mentioned in this film.

should the sacrifices become unbearable you are always welcome in our home for snacks and drinks.

do you mind if I post this generous invitation on the Occupy Wall Street website ?

i don't mind as 99% of the protesters can't afford a ticket to Thailand and the remaining 1% would ask "who or what is Thailand?"

[ronz28]

Technology usually requires some tweaking and hopefully that will occur before they destroy the planet with fracking causing earthquakes where they aren't expected, perhaps under nuclear power plants not designed to be subject to earthquakes. Nuclear contamination can't be stopped once the disaster occurs as evidenced in Japan no matter how much they try and conceal it. US oil and gas industry needs to do a better job of fracking to stop the earthquakes its causing as reported today:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-12/earthquake-outbreak-in-central-u-s-tied-to-drilling-wastewater.html

Science provides the productivity gains that we need to advance our standard of living, but safety first.

[flying]

Science provides the productivity gains that we need to advance our standard of living, but safety first.

+1

[KeyserSoze01]

The doco was a wake up call for me also. As a species, we are on a hell bound train and it appears there is no way to stop it.

[KeyserSoze01]

Technology usually requires some tweaking and hopefully that will occur before they destroy the planet with fracking causing earthquakes where they aren't expected, perhaps under nuclear power plants not designed to be subject to earthquakes. Nuclear contamination can't be stopped once the disaster occurs as evidenced in Japan no matter how much they try and conceal it. US oil and gas industry needs to do a better job of fracking to stop the earthquakes its causing as reported today:

http://www.bloomberg...wastewater.html

Science provides the productivity gains that we need to advance our standard of living, but safety first.

Don't think technology can help us with peak oil, overpopulation, carbon content in the atmosphere, climate change and the capitalistic economic model.

[brit1984]

Technology usually requires some tweaking and hopefully that will occur before they destroy the planet with fracking causing earthquakes where they aren't expected, perhaps under nuclear power plants not designed to be subject to earthquakes. Nuclear contamination can't be stopped once the disaster occurs as evidenced in Japan no matter how much they try and conceal it. US oil and gas industry needs to do a better job of fracking to stop the earthquakes its causing as reported today:

http://www.bloomberg...wastewater.html

Science provides the productivity gains that we need to advance our standard of living, but safety first.

Don't think technology can help us with peak oil, overpopulation, carbon content in the atmosphere, climate change and the capitalistic economic model.

Of course technology can help

Which economic model would you recommend?

[ronz28]

Regarding, technology helping us with peak oil, overpopulation, carbon content in the atmosphere, climate change and the capitalistic economic model I can offer the following for discussion:

Fracking is a relatively new technology that has produced so much natural gas in the US that it is in significant oversupply and the price has dropped below $2 per MMB Tu now from over $12 in 2007 and in the process additional oil has been discovered that also helps us with peak oil. Natural gas is far cleaner than coal or oil to burn and is a good transition fuel to use until scientists invent more cost effective solar cells, wind generators, fuel cells, safer nuclear power, etc. I am confident the capitalist model of rewarding inventors with patents and profits will provide that additional incentive beyond pride in work to drive people to discover those inventions that will solve the energy/climate issues and benefit all of us.

Overpopulation can be prevented with the use of birth control pills etc.that were invented and tested with clinical trials by scientists. Now, people just have to be educated to use them to control population growth.

[mccw]

Overpopulation can be prevented with the use of birth control pills etc.that were invented and tested with clinical trials by scientists. Now, people just have to be educated to use them to control population growth.

This view is evidenced by the fact that most developed nations populations are either flat, in decline or if growing only because of immigration.

The problem is that stable population doesn't match with expansionist current form of capitalism. Less young to pay for the old etc.

I think maybe the only way a stable population, or even shrinking, could work would be a blend of socialism and capitalism. So most key industries like, power generation, food production, etc would be government controlled and run for the "people" as opposed to being high jacked by the "workers" / unions. The waste in today's world is staggering. So much food but people can't afford it. So distribution on a basic level also handled on as localised level as possible. Everything above shelter, warmth, food and education can be free from gov control and trading through fiat money is no problem if we (I mean the government acting in our interests) have control of the money supply.

To have a government acting in our interests there'd need to be state funding of political parties; banning of donations; more oversight check and balances, transparency etc.

None of these changes are likely. Infancy everything is sliding in the opposite direction.

Currently The demographic problem hasn't even been attempted to be dealt with. It's inescapable.

By the time it's upon the whole globe the population could well be 3 or 4 times what it is today. The current model may limp on for another couple of decades even.

I'm 28 so I expect I'll see the new era, certainly my kids will. Right now I think is the begging of the end of the old/ start of the turmoil of transition.

The other problem is that of technologies being suppressed by powerful corporations.

Possibly we have the tools right now to sort a lot of this mess out but the system won't allow it.

Probably global catastrophe and or system collapse will be needed until collective will will force what needs to be done.

[mccw]

"global spreads has gone in to administration" "clients accounts frozen" "big hole in clients accounts" "money missing"

Bloomberg

Sorry I can't post a link because I pad linked content never seems to work

[midas]

desperate and pathetic

Black Market in Spain: Cash Transactions Exceeding 2,500 Euros Now Banned

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/04/black-market-in-spain-cash-transactions.html

[Naam]

desperate and pathetic

Black Market in Spain: Cash Transactions Exceeding 2,500 Euros Now Banned

http://globaleconomi...ansactions.html

did "Mish" miss the cash cap of €UR 1,000 which is in force since three months in Italy?

[mccw]

In the west we have millions of people paid to sit on their <deleted>. Why not set them to work building solar farms, roads, digging coal etc based on their abilities? If they don't do it or not work satisfactorily then only vouchers to stay alive - no more cash hand outs.

This is probably another thing which can only come after major calamity.

[brit1984]

In the west we have millions of people paid to sit on their <deleted>. Why not set them to work building solar farms, roads, digging coal etc based on their abilities? If they don't do it or not work satisfactorily then only vouchers to stay alive - no more cash hand outs.

This is probably another thing which can only come after major calamity.

... no government will stop it because those lazy buggers are the cheapest votes available

[midas]

In the west we have millions of people paid to sit on their <deleted>. Why not set them to work building solar farms, roads, digging coal etc based on their abilities? If they don't do it or not work satisfactorily then only vouchers to stay alive - no more cash hand outs.

This is probably another thing which can only come after major calamity.

... no government will stop it because those lazy buggers are the cheapest votes available

yeah well I hope such governments have worked out where they're going to get

the money to pay those lazy buggers and I hope they're not banking on higher taxes

because I don't believe you can get blood from a stone

[brit1984]

In the west we have millions of people paid to sit on their <deleted>. Why not set them to work building solar farms, roads, digging coal etc based on their abilities? If they don't do it or not work satisfactorily then only vouchers to stay alive - no more cash hand outs.

This is probably another thing which can only come after major calamity.

... no government will stop it because those lazy buggers are the cheapest votes available

yeah well I hope such governments have worked out where they're going to get

the money to pay those lazy buggers and I hope they're not banking on higher taxes

because I don't believe you can get blood from a stone

...they will print money of course

[midas]

In the west we have millions of people paid to sit on their <deleted>. Why not set them to work building solar farms, roads, digging coal etc based on their abilities? If they don't do it or not work satisfactorily then only vouchers to stay alive - no more cash hand outs.

This is probably another thing which can only come after major calamity.

... no government will stop it because those lazy buggers are the cheapest votes available

yeah well I hope such governments have worked out where they're going to get

the money to pay those lazy buggers and I hope they're not banking on higher taxes

because I don't believe you can get blood from a stone

...they will print money of course

and would you care to put a timeframe on how long that charade can be sustained?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17680904

[mccw]

If one Volos is worth 1 euro how is it any different to them giving each other a euro for their services?

[brit1984]

If one Volos is worth 1 euro how is it any different to them giving each other a euro for their services?

The Germans don't have to provide them with a never ending supply of Volos...

[mccw]

If one Volos is worth 1 euro how is it any different to them giving each other a euro for their services?

The Germans don't have to provide them with a never ending supply of Volos...

If one Volos must be first bought with one euro then it's no real different than Disney land money.

If its that one Volos can be created through giving a service which can be exchanged back for something else later then this is the retaking of the money supply as covered in that "money masters" film.

No shortage of people wanting and ready to exchange services, but there is a shortage of euros I guess. So this is really fantastic for them. The 1 euro to 1 Volos exchange must just be for those who would like to buy something in the Volos only market but have no Volos from before hand.

Lookalike the retaking of power over money supply is really critical. I was surprised at the lack of comment about that film. These are the kind of solutions that could be taken on larger scales but the super elites powers are obviously far too great. even the little mayor knows its dangerous to offer such a thought as alternative and is quick to state allegiance to the EU bsnksters .

Does any one else find the ussurping of democracy as more than a bit unnerving? Not to mention the fact that no parties are openly talking about any alternative than just more or less debt to the bsnksters. No debate on money supply, let alone the topics we touched on earlier of over population, peak this that etc etc

[mccw]

Really we are all getting screwed so dam_n hard!

I've got far too much at steak to contemplate doing anything about it. But those 20+ % youth unemployed in Spain obviously don't. Not sure they really know what the problem or solution is though; just "the indignant ones" is so dumb

[flying]

Does any one else find the ussurping of democracy as more than a bit unnerving? Not to mention the fact that no parties are openly talking about any alternative than just more or less debt to the bsnksters. No debate on money supply,

Yes

And yes no debate no thought of change.

The system is beautifully broken & I guess at the end of the day we are as much to blame

as in many ways we allow it.

As you said & I agree......we SEE it......yet we allow it or wait thinking it will change....It has to change etc....

Yet we sit & wait & see the reality is more of the same....It will not change....Why would it?

The last go round was probably the greatest transfer of wealth in history.

Where is *their* incentive to change such a sweet deal?

At the end of the day the puppets/politicians do their masters bidding.

Our collective misconception is that we are their masters......Yet we are not.

From the beginning our *choices* are chosen for us.

Matter not who we pick as they are all originally placed in the Que by the real powers that be.

There is one way out of this & it ain't pretty

Edited April 14, 2012 by flying

[KeyserSoze01]

Technology usually requires some tweaking and hopefully that will occur before they destroy the planet with fracking causing earthquakes where they aren't expected, perhaps under nuclear power plants not designed to be subject to earthquakes. Nuclear contamination can't be stopped once the disaster occurs as evidenced in Japan no matter how much they try and conceal it. US oil and gas industry needs to do a better job of fracking to stop the earthquakes its causing as reported today:

http://www.bloomberg...wastewater.html

Science provides the productivity gains that we need to advance our standard of living, but safety first.

Don't think technology can help us with peak oil, overpopulation, carbon content in the atmosphere, climate change and the capitalistic economic model.

Of course technology can help

Which economic model would you recommend?

I don't have any answers, just questions like you.

Peak Oil - Fracking will allow us to retrieve oil that previously was not economically feasible to extract. This will extend the current energy model that drives civilization for a period of time. Natural gas is a likely candidate to replace oil as an energy source and many countries have already adopted LNG for vehicles and industry, Thailand be one. Acceptance is slow as infrastructure costs to implement are high. Oddly enough, the US has the largest LNG reserves, but the government has zero interest in implementing it, leaving it up to private enterprise to foot the bill. LNG does burn much cleaner than oil, thus reducing carbon emissions. Sadly, it will be too little, too late as humans continue to pump co2 into the atmosphere. Then we have power production, which is still primarily based on coal. Even with clean burning coal technology, it still pumps large quantities of co2 into the atmosphere. Humans need to find a non-fossil fuel replacement to drive civilization. Unfortunately, nothing is on the horizon.

Overpopulation - There is no answer for this problem unless draconian measures are put into place. The concept of free will provides dominion over a person's reproduction. This will have to be suspended. Then who decides who is allowed to reproduce and who doesn't? China's experiment in population control is an abject lesson in this plight. Population growth is way down in developed countries, while running rampant in developing countries. It seems educated folks are breeding themselves out of existence while the lower rungs of society continue to breed like rabbits. If nations cannot agree on a strategic energy plan for future generations, it is not feasible to believe that population control will have any success.

Climate change / Carbon content in the atmosphere - There is no answer for this condition, except to cease all carbon output and hope that the earth heals itself over the next several million years. The problem is that the damage is done and the tipping point is upon us NOW to do something about it. There are many that scoff at the facts, but the results of atmospheric carbon content is all around us. The oceans of the world are sinking carbon from the atmosphere, which is the intent. The problem is that the volume of carbon is growing at a rate which is affecting the chemical content of the oceans, raising mean temperatures, raising acidity and killing off the animals at the bottom of the food chain. We lose the oceans, we lose the planet. Game over.

Economic models - Much like the energy issue, agriculture expands to keep up with population growth. A very slippery slope as the supply chain for food stuffs hinges on the energy model to deliver goods to market. In the US, cities have on average 7 days of food stuffs to supply stores. The first hint of a crisis sends people into a frenzy, hoarding food. Any disruption in energy delivery stops food deliveries, resulting in chaos in a matter of days in most cities. Those that live in an agrarian, subsistence economy state the best chance of survival. Urbanites stand little chance as they no longer have the skills to fend for themselves outside their bubble or civilization.

Capitalism - A premise which is based on growth. How can any system be sustained on growth when there is a finite limit to the resources used to feed the economic engine. Granted, the great experiments in socialism and communism in the 20th century failed miserably as human nature prevents successful acceptance and adoption to these theorems.

----

At the end of it, there is very little any of us can do individually to change the course of civilization. It would be one thing if we have time to change course, but that is no longer feasible as it would require all peoples of the world to agree on change and the resulting pain. Far too easy to continue on the current path to destruction and turn a blind eye to the facts.

The earth reached 6 billion human inhabitants in 1999. That number jumped to 7 billion in 2011. Estimates are for 9 billion by the year 2050. The earth does not have the resources to support this type of population growth.

Much like everything else humans come into contact with, we act before considering the repercussions for future generations. We can no longer afford to ignore the facts if the humans are to continue being the dominant species on the planet. We have viewed the planet as a resource to be consumed at our leisure. This will have to change. Unfortunately, humans have proven time and time again that they will take the easy way out, giving little consideration for the future. Collectively we have lived through the peak of human civilization on the earth, while leaving a mess for future generations.

[Naam]

Really we are all getting screwed so dam_n hard!

I've got far too much at steak to contemplate doing anything about it. But those 20+ % youth unemployed in Spain obviously don't. Not sure they really know what the problem or solution is though; just "the indignant ones" is so dumb

the situation in Spain is much worse. overall unemployment 25%, of young people till age 25 it's 50%!

[ronz28]

King of Spain was out killing elephants as the people of his country suffered.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/9204680/King-Juan-Carlos-of-Spain-operated-on-after-elephant-hunting-accident..html

Real estate market in Spain must really be taking a hit if half the young can't get jobs to afford a place to live away from their parents.

[Naam]

Telegraph and Daily Mail =

[mccw]

Really we are all getting screwed so dam_n hard!

I've got far too much at steak to contemplate doing anything about it. But those 20+ % youth unemployed in Spain obviously don't. Not sure they really know what the problem or solution is though; just "the indignant ones" is so dumb

the situation in Spain is much worse. overall unemployment 25%, of young people till age 25 it's 50%!

Sweet Jesus! And the austerity is only just beginning ; yet everyone for some reason thinks this crises is practically over?

[churchill]

Really we are all getting screwed so dam_n hard!

I've got far too much at steak to contemplate doing anything about it. But those 20+ % youth unemployed in Spain obviously don't. Not sure they really know what the problem or solution is though; just "the indignant ones" is so dumb

the situation in Spain is much worse. overall unemployment 25%, of young people till age 25 it's 50%!

Sweet Jesus! And the austerity is only just beginning ; yet everyone for some reason thinks this crises is practically over?

I think that the financial problems ..future pension funding , care for populations , education , is too much for any politician -- the ones who decide what should and will be done -- to understand , along with the infighting , bribes and undertable cash for favours ... nothing ever gets done .

Why is the world spending so much on military .. instead of a fighting force , countries should provide a help force ..instead of spending so much to try to design weapons to kill .. they should be spending to design programs to produce safe , healthy food , provide water , manage climate change ....

And there are solutions to many problems .. We can manage problems on a local basis ...

Finances , currencies , spending , funding , HFT , need attention but can be solved ...

Computers are now programed to take advantage and profit .. and can they loose ? sell a ton of crap you don't own .. the price crashes .. buy it back at a 50 % discount ...They have no feel for grain shortage , or oil costs they are just programmed to make profit ...

so I think they should be banned from trading .. so that we all have a level playing field .. if not i think the whole system will eventually be bought to a stop .. a 2 week holiday for banks , markets , currencies whilst the whole system is reset .

Edited April 15, 2012 by churchill

[midas]

If its that one Volos can be created through giving a service which can be exchanged back for something else later then this is the retaking of the money supply as covered in that "money masters" film.

well this is how I interpreted it. In other words it is backed by something tangible not just by the printing press.

as a society the central banksters clearly don't have the self-discipline to stop taking the easy way out

so we need something valuable to which any currency can be tied

there is this of course - the old cliche " time is money " takes on a new dimension

http://www.mostwatch...is-money-movie/

Edited April 15, 2012 by midas

[churchill]

and Lagarde already begging from countries that need her funding ..

IMF chief Christine Lagarde will struggle to bag more funds for a 'firewall'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9204049/IMF-chief-Christine-Lagarde-will-struggle-to-bag-more-funds-for-a-firewall.html

What is the solution ...print

Edited April 15, 2012 by churchill

[Naam]

Really we are all getting screwed so dam_n hard!

I've got far too much at steak to contemplate doing anything about it. But those 20+ % youth unemployed in Spain obviously don't. Not sure they really know what the problem or solution is though; just "the indignant ones" is so dumb

the situation in Spain is much worse. overall unemployment 25%, of young people till age 25 it's 50%!

Sweet Jesus! And the austerity is only just beginning ; yet everyone for some reason thinks this crises is practically over?

it will take many years till the crisis in Spain is over. for more than a decade the country's economy expanded or rather exploded due to construction based on extremely low interest rates which accompanied the adoption of the EURo. except for tourism at the coast there is not enough viable industry which could absorb even a tiny percentage of the jobless, respectively offer young unemployed people the possibility to learn a trade.

the same applies more or less to Portugal and Greece but not to Italy.