Financial Crisis

[mccw]

I agree.

Way too high taxes / cost of living and the "benefits" need breaking.

I hope Thailand doesn't fall down the same path.

[NeverSure]

Manarak, I can't get the quote system to work. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Ford. Today the workers make an average of $28 per hour plus about $10 in benefits. In addition, they have a generous retirement program which they can collect on top of their government social security payments. In total they cost Ford, General Motors and Chrysler about $70 per hour, or about $150,000 per year, per employee.

This is just the average. New people make less and people with time on the job make more. Link

Yes, the main stream media quote will say the workers don't make that much, but will go on and explain that they cost that much including retirement benefits.

Now, these are "blue collar" factory workers, not rocket scientists. These are people who walked in off the street with no education.

Remember, life in the US is much cheaper than in other developed countries due to a lack of import taxes, and I don't even have to pay a sales tax or VAT. Even just a base of $28 per hour, or maybe $55,000 per year plus health insurance, vacation and other benefits is solid middle class.

I submit that it is totally government which causes the high cost of living through taxes, and inflation from the printing presses.

I submit that the Ford business and employee model still works.

I submit that everyone except those born wealthy starts at the bottom and determines his future by how hard he wants to work.

I submit that the problem is government, not Ford.

I further submit that even nations have to start at the bottom and work up as Western countries did.

I submit that back in the day when so many people actually had a typical family farm they were dirt poor as people in Isaan are today. I submit that they are better off working for Ford with a lighter work load and more money and more luxuries.

Edited May 27, 2013 by NeverSure

[manarak]

Manarak, I can't get the quote system to work. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Ford. Today the workers make an average of $28 per hour plus about $10 in benefits. In addition, they have a generous retirement program which they can collect on top of their government social security payments. In total they cost Ford, General Motors and Chrysler about $70 per hour, or about $150,000 per year, per employee.

This is just the average. New people make less and people with time on the job make more. Link

Yes, the main stream media quote will say the workers don't make that much, but will go on and explain that they cost that much including retirement benefits.

Now, these are "blue collar" factory workers, not rocket scientists. These are people who walked in off the street with no education.

Remember, life in the US is much cheaper than in other developed countries due to a lack of import taxes, and I don't even have to pay a sales tax or VAT. Even just a base of $28 per hour, or maybe $55,000 per year plus health insurance, vacation and other benefits is solid middle class.

I submit that it is totally government which causes the high cost of living through taxes, and inflation from the printing presses.

I submit that the Ford business and employee model still works.

I submit that everyone except those born wealthy starts at the bottom and determines his future by how hard he wants to work.

I submit that the problem is government, not Ford.

I further submit that even nations have to start at the bottom and work up as Western countries did.

I submit that back in the day when so many people actually had a typical family farm they were dirt poor as people in Isaan are today. I submit that they are better off working for Ford with a lighter work load and more money and more luxuries.

In the US the problem is less acute than in Western Europe.

Maybe Fordism still works in the USA, but in Europe, an increasing number of people are just "Johngalting out".

The high cost of living in Europe is caused by high labor costs, the weight of regulation, high taxes, high real estate costs and other "forced expenses" that aren't taxes (social security, TV duty, car ownership duty, health insurance, pension duty, etc.).

While many of the high costs are related to taxes and social policies of the government, inflation on real estate prices is not due to the government's printing press but to stable wages and mortgages that are too cheap.

Money and standard of living are not the only scales on which happiness is measured.

Do you know Maslow?

For some, the feeling of empowerment is also important for happiness.

Why I think there is something wrong with the current system:

In Switzerland I had been for a while in the 5% top earners.

So I began to make some plans for the future, looked at houses.

Guess what? even being in that income bracket, the price of the houses was so high that I would have had to pay the mortgage back during 40 years while living a comfortable but not so luxurious life. The house was nothing extravagant, just a 250 sqm house with 3 BR and a small garden, within 30 minutes of the city.

That really depressed me.

Not only that: the Swiss tax administration considers that one must pay income tax on saved rent !!! that's right, when you own your accomodation, the tax department will top up your taxable income with the amount of rent you would have paid for it!!! disgusting!!!

So I was even more depressed.

Luckily, I discovered the LOS shortly after and decided to Johngalt out.

I traded my well paid bank job for my current precarious internet business, and although I struggle for earning more than I spend every month, it's 100 times better than working with the narcissist decision-avoiding attention whores that were the top managers of the Bank! :-)

Edited May 27, 2013 by manarak

[NeverSure]

Manarak, I can't get the quote system to work. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Ford. Today the workers make an average of $28 per hour plus about $10 in benefits. In addition, they have a generous retirement program which they can collect on top of their government social security payments. In total they cost Ford, General Motors and Chrysler about $70 per hour, or about $150,000 per year, per employee.

This is just the average. New people make less and people with time on the job make more. Link

Yes, the main stream media quote will say the workers don't make that much, but will go on and explain that they cost that much including retirement benefits.

Now, these are "blue collar" factory workers, not rocket scientists. These are people who walked in off the street with no education.

Remember, life in the US is much cheaper than in other developed countries due to a lack of import taxes, and I don't even have to pay a sales tax or VAT. Even just a base of $28 per hour, or maybe $55,000 per year plus health insurance, vacation and other benefits is solid middle class.

I submit that it is totally government which causes the high cost of living through taxes, and inflation from the printing presses.

I submit that the Ford business and employee model still works.

I submit that everyone except those born wealthy starts at the bottom and determines his future by how hard he wants to work.

I submit that the problem is government, not Ford.

I further submit that even nations have to start at the bottom and work up as Western countries did.

I submit that back in the day when so many people actually had a typical family farm they were dirt poor as people in Isaan are today. I submit that they are better off working for Ford with a lighter work load and more money and more luxuries.

In the US the problem is less acute than in Western Europe.

Maybe Fordism still works in the USA, but in Europe, an increasing number of people are just "Johngalting out".

The high cost of living in Europe is caused by high labor costs, the weight of regulation, high taxes, high real estate costs and other "forced expenses" that aren't taxes (social security, TV duty, car ownership duty, health insurance, pension duty, etc.).

While many of the high costs are related to taxes and social policies of the government, inflation on real estate prices is not due to the government's printing press but to stable wages and mortgages that are too cheap.

Money and standard of living are not the only scales on which happiness is measured.

Do you know Maslow?

For some, the feeling of empowerment is also important for happiness.

Why I think there is something wrong with the current system:

In Switzerland I had been for a while in the 5% top earners.

So I began to make some plans for the future, looked at houses.

Guess what? even being in that income bracket, the price of the houses was so high that I would have had to pay the mortgage back during 40 years while living a comfortable but not so luxurious life. The house was nothing extravagant, just a 250 sqm house with 3 BR and a small garden, within 30 minutes of the city.

That really depressed me.

Not only that: the Swiss tax administration considers that one must pay income tax on saved rent !!! that's right, when you own your accomodation, the tax department will top up your taxable income with the amount of rent you would have paid for it!!! disgusting!!!

So I was even more depressed.

Luckily, I discovered the LOS shortly after and decided to Johngalt out.

I traded my well paid bank job for my current precarious internet business, and although I struggle for earning more than I spend every month, it's 100 times better than working with the narcissist decision-avoiding attention whores that were the top managers of the Bank! :-)

I get it. Good stuff.

But, that's you and that's me. By coincidence I started life as a banker. I think that helps us communicate maybe. But I hated it, hated working for the company, hated the big city they transferred me to...

But I don't think everyone is cut out to work for himself. Some people need the security (perceived) of a "job." In fact I think that's most people and I didn't know anyone else who quit the bank for the far less "prestigious" and risky business of being a building contractor. But I had to. I was driven. I couldn't stand working for someone else. The only reason I chose contracting was that I already knew something about it because my dad did it.

The other guys at the bank thought I was nuts to walk out into thin air with nothing underneath me but desire.

Everyone isn't like that and never has been. Even back in the day when there was this small corner hardware store that has been wiped out by the big home center, that hardware store owner had employees. There were more employees than business owners.

I knew small farmers who went to work at times for someone to make ends meet. Sometimes it was a business in town.

So I can't say that Ford is bad because most of those employees would be in a world of hurts without those jobs. They weren't even motivated to get an education.

I don't know much about the European model, but what I do know I don't like. I don't like what America is becoming either. It's called too much government. We used to joke and say "It's a good thing we aren't getting all of the government we pay for." I can't tell that joke well anymore because I'm getting more government than I want. It still isn't the same as Europe, but we Americans are hard assed independent.

I can't explain Switzerland because I don't know anything. We have so much land that if one stays away from the city there's plenty to go around. That's especially true if it's something like what I have instead of good farm land. I chose a view property on a hill that's wooded. I cut down trees on the view side. The land isn't all that valuable. I knew how to build and did it cheaply. I mean like $200k for the home + land. I doubt if I would stay in that country or London either because I KNOW I wouldn't go to New York or San Francisco or any similar place.

Bottom line, I really don't think we disagree on much, at the heart of it.

Not proof read.

[yoshiwara]

Manarak, I can't get the quote system to work. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Ford. Today the workers make an average of $28 per hour plus about $10 in benefits. In addition, they have a generous retirement program which they can collect on top of their government social security payments. In total they cost Ford, General Motors and Chrysler about $70 per hour, or about $150,000 per year, per employee.

This is just the average. New people make less and people with time on the job make more. Link

Yes, the main stream media quote will say the workers don't make that much, but will go on and explain that they cost that much including retirement benefits.

Now, these are "blue collar" factory workers, not rocket scientists. These are people who walked in off the street with no education.

Remember, life in the US is much cheaper than in other developed countries due to a lack of import taxes, and I don't even have to pay a sales tax or VAT. Even just a base of $28 per hour, or maybe $55,000 per year plus health insurance, vacation and other benefits is solid middle class.

I submit that it is totally government which causes the high cost of living through taxes, and inflation from the printing presses.

I submit that the Ford business and employee model still works.

I submit that everyone except those born wealthy starts at the bottom and determines his future by how hard he wants to work.

I submit that the problem is government, not Ford.

I further submit that even nations have to start at the bottom and work up as Western countries did.

I submit that back in the day when so many people actually had a typical family farm they were dirt poor as people in Isaan are today. I submit that they are better off working for Ford with a lighter work load and more money and more luxuries.

In the US the problem is less acute than in Western Europe.

Maybe Fordism still works in the USA, but in Europe, an increasing number of people are just "Johngalting out".

The high cost of living in Europe is caused by high labor costs, the weight of regulation, high taxes, high real estate costs and other "forced expenses" that aren't taxes (social security, TV duty, car ownership duty, health insurance, pension duty, etc.).

While many of the high costs are related to taxes and social policies of the government, inflation on real estate prices is not due to the government's printing press but to stable wages and mortgages that are too cheap.

Money and standard of living are not the only scales on which happiness is measured.

Do you know Maslow?

For some, the feeling of empowerment is also important for happiness.

Why I think there is something wrong with the current system:

In Switzerland I had been for a while in the 5% top earners.

So I began to make some plans for the future, looked at houses.

Guess what? even being in that income bracket, the price of the houses was so high that I would have had to pay the mortgage back during 40 years while living a comfortable but not so luxurious life. The house was nothing extravagant, just a 250 sqm house with 3 BR and a small garden, within 30 minutes of the city.

That really depressed me.

Not only that: the Swiss tax administration considers that one must pay income tax on saved rent !!! that's right, when you own your accomodation, the tax department will top up your taxable income with the amount of rent you would have paid for it!!! disgusting!!!

So I was even more depressed.

Luckily, I discovered the LOS shortly after and decided to Johngalt out.

I traded my well paid bank job for my current precarious internet business, and although I struggle for earning more than I spend every month, it's 100 times better than working with the narcissist decision-avoiding attention whores that were the top managers of the Bank! :-)

I get it. Good stuff.

But, that's you and that's me. By coincidence I started life as a banker. I think that helps us communicate maybe. But I hated it, hated working for the company, hated the big city they transferred me to...

But I don't think everyone is cut out to work for himself. Some people need the security (perceived) of a "job." In fact I think that's most people and I didn't know anyone else who quit the bank for the far less "prestigious" and risky business of being a building contractor. But I had to. I was driven. I couldn't stand working for someone else. The only reason I chose contracting was that I already knew something about it because my dad did it.

The other guys at the bank thought I was nuts to walk out into thin air with nothing underneath me but desire.

Everyone isn't like that and never has been. Even back in the day when there was this small corner hardware store that has been wiped out by the big home center, that hardware store owner had employees. There were more employees than business owners.

I knew small farmers who went to work at times for someone to make ends meet. Sometimes it was a business in town.

So I can't say that Ford is bad because most of those employees would be in a world of hurts without those jobs. They weren't even motivated to get an education.

I don't know much about the European model, but what I do know I don't like. I don't like what America is becoming either. It's called too much government. We used to joke and say "It's a good thing we aren't getting all of the government we pay for." I can't tell that joke well anymore because I'm getting more government than I want. It still isn't the same as Europe, but we Americans are hard assed independent.

I can't explain Switzerland because I don't know anything. We have so much land that if one stays away from the city there's plenty to go around. That's especially true if it's something like what I have instead of good farm land. I chose a view property on a hill that's wooded. I cut down trees on the view side. The land isn't all that valuable. I knew how to build and did it cheaply. I mean like $200k for the home + land. I doubt if I would stay in that country or London either because I KNOW I wouldn't go to New York or San Francisco or any similar place.

Bottom line, I really don't think we disagree on much, at the heart of it.

Not proof read.

Man with bee in his bonnet.

[cheeryble]

.....this from Cheeryble three weeks ago:

Surprised no-one has mentioned the Reinhardt and Rogoff fiasco and the possible ill-effect their "work" has had on European policy vis a vis austerity......and whether European policies might now be adapted to be less tuned to the RR message and more in tune with growing the economy.

There is no doubt their paper had a huge worldwide effect on policy and outcomes of that policy, and likely a retrograde one.

Perhaps one of our posters can check if there's a public debate happening in public in Europe about this yet, or whether it's all behind closed doors for now as there will be so much egg on so many faces and could mean such a reversal in attitude.

.....this from the FT today:

EU eases hard line on austerity

France, Spain and the Netherlands to be given a waiver on the annual 3% deficit limit on condition national governments embark on labour market reforms

http://link.ft.com/r/DHGUVV/A5RA3E/0GDNGN/FK5P6Y/87UM85/SN/h?a1=2013&a2=5&a3=28

[manarak]

France embarking on significant labor market reforms? not going to happen.

[NeverSure]

yoshiwara, on 27 May 2013 - 17:36, said: Man with bee in his bonnet.

Brilliant. Great debate. Well thought out. Lots of effort. Surely we have the master at work here.

[NeverSure]

.....this from Cheeryble three weeks ago:

Surprised no-one has mentioned the Reinhardt and Rogoff fiasco and the possible ill-effect their "work" has had on European policy vis a vis austerity......and whether European policies might now be adapted to be less tuned to the RR message and more in tune with growing the economy.

There is no doubt their paper had a huge worldwide effect on policy and outcomes of that policy, and likely a retrograde one.

Perhaps one of our posters can check if there's a public debate happening in public in Europe about this yet, or whether it's all behind closed doors for now as there will be so much egg on so many faces and could mean such a reversal in attitude.

.....this from the FT today:

>

EU eases hard line on austerity

France, Spain and the Netherlands to be given a waiver on the annual 3% deficit limit on condition national governments embark on labour market reforms

http://link.ft.com/r/DHGUVV/A5RA3E/0GDNGN/FK5P6Y/87UM85/SN/h?a1=2013&a2=5&a3=28

The EU can't, under its system, have strict austerity. Its economy is a socialist model with many promises made to its citizens for which it must pay. Its economy is based on a false belief that the government, not the private sector creates wealth. The truth is that a thriving private sector, free from too many regulations and taxes, will accumulate money, invest, and hire people. The result will be profits from industry to tax, and people with jobs who don't need handouts but rather pay taxes into the system.

The EU is mistakenly on a path the puts government at the head, and the private sector at the tail, and the head is eating the body and the tail.

[mccw]

Its things like this that make me think the UK if not other northern nations are going to say enough is enough and tell the EU to butt out permanently :

The European Union is set to take Britain to court over benefits for migrants - setting the Government on course for a battle with Brussels.

The European Commission has accused Britain of discriminating against EU nationals who have been living and working in the UK.

The Commission says tests applied to check if claimants are eligible for benefits are unfair - and has referred Britain to the EU's Court of Justice over the matter.

In a statement on its website today, the EC said: "UK nationals have a 'right to reside' in the UK solely on the basis of their UK citizenship, whereas other EU nationals have to meet additional conditions in order to pass this 'right to reside' test.

"This means that the UK discriminates unfairly against nationals from other member states. This contravenes EU rules on the coordination of social security systems which outlaw direct and indirect discrimination in the field of access to social security benefits."

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has vowed to fight the Commission "every step of the way".

He said: "People in this country expect me to protect the benefits system from abuse and protect the money of hardworking taxpayers. So I will not stand by while the European Commission tries to water down the valuable protections we've put in place.

-sky news

You'd this when a major contributing nations about to have a referendum the EU might temper its fiddling but obviously they have no tact or even sense. I think they can not agree to any major changes in relationship and UK will vote to leave. Maybe good for the EU in the long run, they'll have to print more and devalue without those pounds coming in to prop up their mess. Good for UK to be free

[NeverSure]

Its things like this that make me think the UK if not other northern nations are going to say enough is enough and tell the EU to butt out permanently :

The European Union is set to take Britain to court over benefits for migrants - setting the Government on course for a battle with Brussels.

The European Commission has accused Britain of discriminating against EU nationals who have been living and working in the UK.

The Commission says tests applied to check if claimants are eligible for benefits are unfair - and has referred Britain to the EU's Court of Justice over the matter.

In a statement on its website today, the EC said: "UK nationals have a 'right to reside' in the UK solely on the basis of their UK citizenship, whereas other EU nationals have to meet additional conditions in order to pass this 'right to reside' test.

"This means that the UK discriminates unfairly against nationals from other member states. This contravenes EU rules on the coordination of social security systems which outlaw direct and indirect discrimination in the field of access to social security benefits."

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has vowed to fight the Commission "every step of the way".

He said: "People in this country expect me to protect the benefits system from abuse and protect the money of hardworking taxpayers. So I will not stand by while the European Commission tries to water down the valuable protections we've put in place.

-sky news

You'd this when a major contributing nations about to have a referendum the EU might temper its fiddling but obviously they have no tact or even sense. I think they can not agree to any major changes in relationship and UK will vote to leave. Maybe good for the EU in the long run, they'll have to print more and devalue without those pounds coming in to prop up their mess. Good for UK to be free

I'm am very, very glad that Britain didn't adopt the Euro. Not only aren't they stuck with the Euro, but it makes it a lot easier to manage their own economy and if desired, pull away from the Euro mess.

The only thing I wish Britain would do differently is to stop allowing immigration. But, that's really not any of my business. It's just that I deeply care about Britain, having been probably our best ally over time. I wish Britain didn't have this PC approach to ME immigrants, even after they immigrate. I think it's dangerous and expensive.

But the US has enough problems that it can hardly criticize anyone else. It's just two different cultures.

I will celebrate in the street if Britain tells the Euro countries to kiss its ass.

[PCA]

Its things like this that make me think the UK if not other northern nations are going to say enough is enough and tell the EU to butt out permanently :

The European Union is set to take Britain to court over benefits for migrants - setting the Government on course for a battle with Brussels.

The European Commission has accused Britain of discriminating against EU nationals who have been living and working in the UK.

The Commission says tests applied to check if claimants are eligible for benefits are unfair - and has referred Britain to the EU's Court of Justice over the matter.

In a statement on its website today, the EC said: "UK nationals have a 'right to reside' in the UK solely on the basis of their UK citizenship, whereas other EU nationals have to meet additional conditions in order to pass this 'right to reside' test.

"This means that the UK discriminates unfairly against nationals from other member states. This contravenes EU rules on the coordination of social security systems which outlaw direct and indirect discrimination in the field of access to social security benefits."

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has vowed to fight the Commission "every step of the way".

He said: "People in this country expect me to protect the benefits system from abuse and protect the money of hardworking taxpayers. So I will not stand by while the European Commission tries to water down the valuable protections we've put in place.

-sky news

You'd this when a major contributing nations about to have a referendum the EU might temper its fiddling but obviously they have no tact or even sense. I think they can not agree to any major changes in relationship and UK will vote to leave. Maybe good for the EU in the long run, they'll have to print more and devalue without those pounds coming in to prop up their mess. Good for UK to be free

I'm am very, very glad that Britain didn't adopt the Euro. Not only aren't they stuck with the Euro, but it makes it a lot easier to manage their own economy and if desired, pull away from the Euro mess.

The only thing I wish Britain would do differently is to stop allowing immigration. But, that's really not any of my business. It's just that I deeply care about Britain, having been probably our best ally over time. I wish Britain didn't have this PC approach to ME immigrants, even after they immigrate. I think it's dangerous and expensive.

But the US has enough problems that it can hardly criticize anyone else. It's just two different cultures.

I will celebrate in the street if Britain tells the Euro countries to kiss its ass.

I agree with your sentiments and basically most of it's content.

But how for example allies UK with the States at cultural principles while one has preserved and maintained it where the other one never had a solid root for it until today.

Saturday joke

[poanoi]

I'm just happy thai baht went down today

[NeverSure]

Its things like this that make me think the UK if not other northern nations are going to say enough is enough and tell the EU to butt out permanently :

The European Union is set to take Britain to court over benefits for migrants - setting the Government on course for a battle with Brussels.

The European Commission has accused Britain of discriminating against EU nationals who have been living and working in the UK.

The Commission says tests applied to check if claimants are eligible for benefits are unfair - and has referred Britain to the EU's Court of Justice over the matter.

In a statement on its website today, the EC said: "UK nationals have a 'right to reside' in the UK solely on the basis of their UK citizenship, whereas other EU nationals have to meet additional conditions in order to pass this 'right to reside' test.

"This means that the UK discriminates unfairly against nationals from other member states. This contravenes EU rules on the coordination of social security systems which outlaw direct and indirect discrimination in the field of access to social security benefits."

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has vowed to fight the Commission "every step of the way".

He said: "People in this country expect me to protect the benefits system from abuse and protect the money of hardworking taxpayers. So I will not stand by while the European Commission tries to water down the valuable protections we've put in place.

-sky news

You'd this when a major contributing nations about to have a referendum the EU might temper its fiddling but obviously they have no tact or even sense. I think they can not agree to any major changes in relationship and UK will vote to leave. Maybe good for the EU in the long run, they'll have to print more and devalue without those pounds coming in to prop up their mess. Good for UK to be free

I'm am very, very glad that Britain didn't adopt the Euro. Not only aren't they stuck with the Euro, but it makes it a lot easier to manage their own economy and if desired, pull away from the Euro mess.

The only thing I wish Britain would do differently is to stop allowing immigration. But, that's really not any of my business. It's just that I deeply care about Britain, having been probably our best ally over time. I wish Britain didn't have this PC approach to ME immigrants, even after they immigrate. I think it's dangerous and expensive.

But the US has enough problems that it can hardly criticize anyone else. It's just two different cultures.

I will celebrate in the street if Britain tells the Euro countries to kiss its ass.

I agree with your sentiments and basically most of it's content.

But how for example allies UK with the States at cultural principles while one has preserved and maintained it where the other one never had a solid root for it until today.

Saturday joke

Actually, people in the US love the Brits. As I've said before, just watch the US stop in its tracks when Kate and William visit, or when Princess Diana did. Rock stars. The US stopped cold to watch the Royal wedding. It WAS the news.

People in the US are shocked any time they discover the things some Brits can say about them, especially when the US continually shows such loyalty to Britain.

We wish only the best for Britain. We cried for your soldier killed in London. We care when you have problems. We would be there to help if you were in danger. We have plenty of our own problems and nothing to boast about, but we certainly think of Brits as friends.

As I said earlier, It was also Britain who decided to attack Iraq, and provided 1/3 of the troops for the invasion. This was a decision of Tony Blair and the Parliament. We don't understand the angry criticism of the US for doing that when Britain was in lockstep, equally involved. It's always Bush's fault. I didn't vote for him and didn't support his policies, but I don't understand the British hatred when they were up to their eyeballs in it, and at the time I thought they were friends and allies. The British intelligence declared there were WMDs and they decided to go to war.

It is for a fact a little disheartening. But I still love the British people.

[PCA]

Its things like this that make me think the UK if not other northern nations are going to say enough is enough and tell the EU to butt out permanently :

The European Union is set to take Britain to court over benefits for migrants - setting the Government on course for a battle with Brussels.

The European Commission has accused Britain of discriminating against EU nationals who have been living and working in the UK.

The Commission says tests applied to check if claimants are eligible for benefits are unfair - and has referred Britain to the EU's Court of Justice over the matter.

In a statement on its website today, the EC said: "UK nationals have a 'right to reside' in the UK solely on the basis of their UK citizenship, whereas other EU nationals have to meet additional conditions in order to pass this 'right to reside' test.

"This means that the UK discriminates unfairly against nationals from other member states. This contravenes EU rules on the coordination of social security systems which outlaw direct and indirect discrimination in the field of access to social security benefits."

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has vowed to fight the Commission "every step of the way".

He said: "People in this country expect me to protect the benefits system from abuse and protect the money of hardworking taxpayers. So I will not stand by while the European Commission tries to water down the valuable protections we've put in place.

-sky news

You'd this when a major contributing nations about to have a referendum the EU might temper its fiddling but obviously they have no tact or even sense. I think they can not agree to any major changes in relationship and UK will vote to leave. Maybe good for the EU in the long run, they'll have to print more and devalue without those pounds coming in to prop up their mess. Good for UK to be free

I'm am very, very glad that Britain didn't adopt the Euro. Not only aren't they stuck with the Euro, but it makes it a lot easier to manage their own economy and if desired, pull away from the Euro mess.

The only thing I wish Britain would do differently is to stop allowing immigration. But, that's really not any of my business. It's just that I deeply care about Britain, having been probably our best ally over time. I wish Britain didn't have this PC approach to ME immigrants, even after they immigrate. I think it's dangerous and expensive.

But the US has enough problems that it can hardly criticize anyone else. It's just two different cultures.

I will celebrate in the street if Britain tells the Euro countries to kiss its ass.

I agree with your sentiments and basically most of it's content.

But how for example allies UK with the States at cultural principles while one has preserved and maintained it where the other one never had a solid root for it until today.

Saturday joke

Actually, people in the US love the Brits. As I've said before, just watch the US stop in its tracks when Kate and William visit, or when Princess Diana did. Rock stars. The US stopped cold to watch the Royal wedding. It WAS the news.

People in the US are shocked any time they discover the things some Brits can say about them, especially when the US continually shows such loyalty to Britain.

We wish only the best for Britain. We cried for your soldier killed in London. We care when you have problems. We would be there to help if you were in danger. We have plenty of our own problems and nothing to boast about, but we certainly think of Brits as friends.

As I said earlier, It was also Britain who decided to attack Iraq, and provided 1/3 of the troops for the invasion. This was a decision of Tony Blair and the Parliament. We don't understand the angry criticism of the US for doing that when Britain was in lockstep, equally involved. It's always Bush's fault. I didn't vote for him and didn't support his policies, but I don't understand the British hatred when they were up to their eyeballs in it, and at the time I thought they were friends and allies. The British intelligence declared there were WMDs and they decided to go to war.

It is for a fact a little disheartening. But I still love the British people.

oops I think that you just have opened a can of worms so I rather go out for a steak.

Still good mood though hehehe but away from the screen.

[manarak]

.....this from Cheeryble three weeks ago:

Surprised no-one has mentioned the Reinhardt and Rogoff fiasco and the possible ill-effect their "work" has had on European policy vis a vis austerity......and whether European policies might now be adapted to be less tuned to the RR message and more in tune with growing the economy.

There is no doubt their paper had a huge worldwide effect on policy and outcomes of that policy, and likely a retrograde one.

Perhaps one of our posters can check if there's a public debate happening in public in Europe about this yet, or whether it's all behind closed doors for now as there will be so much egg on so many faces and could mean such a reversal in attitude.

.....this from the FT today:

>

EU eases hard line on austerity

France, Spain and the Netherlands to be given a waiver on the annual 3% deficit limit on condition national governments embark on labour market reforms

http://link.ft.com/r/DHGUVV/A5RA3E/0GDNGN/FK5P6Y/87UM85/SN/h?a1=2013&a2=5&a3=28

The EU can't, under its system, have strict austerity. Its economy is a socialist model with many promises made to its citizens for which it must pay. Its economy is based on a false belief that the government, not the private sector creates wealth. The truth is that a thriving private sector, free from too many regulations and taxes, will accumulate money, invest, and hire people. The result will be profits from industry to tax, and people with jobs who don't need handouts but rather pay taxes into the system.

The EU is mistakenly on a path the puts government at the head, and the private sector at the tail, and the head is eating the body and the tail.

Germany is definitely different from what you describe, which best fits France and to some extent Spain and Italy.

The part of the public sector in France (as I pointed out earlier in the thread) has risen above 50% (53% currently).

[mccw]

I thought the US I'd telling openly Britain to stay in EU and be its inside mouth piece.

The problem with British view of US is that scum tony and then brown with the gold basically went against the national interest and its people at the behest of America / faceless elite that has control of America. Most can see through the sham / whitewash of reports and other gov bla bla bla . It grates just as bad being told what to do by the US as it does the EU

[NeverSure]

I thought the US I'd telling openly Britain to stay in EU and be its inside mouth piece.

The problem with British view of US is that scum tony and then brown with the gold basically went against the national interest and its people at the behest of America / faceless elite that has control of America. Most can see through the sham / whitewash of reports and other gov bla bla bla . It grates just as bad being told what to do by the US as it does the EU

I am unaware that the US did, or would have the power, to tell Britain anything. You lost me on that, and surely Britain could have told the US to shove it, if it's true?

I see Britain as a sovereign nation, and a good one. If I were a Brit and angry about anything, it would be the control that the EU has over it. I can't believe that Britain succumbs to EU laws. That's who I'd tell to shove it.

I hate it that the US belongs to some international organizations to which is sometimes succumbs. Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

As I said, I love Britain and the British, and I will literally celebrate in the street if I hear that Britain pulled out of the EU, took its sovereignty back, took control of its immigration and to the extent it can its economy, and took its UK back.

Anyway, this thread is about the financial crisis, and surely Western Europe and the US are fair game for that. I hope we can all get back on the right track.

[Naam]

Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

what country tells other countries all the time what to do or not to do? Papua New Guinea?

[NeverSure]

Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

what country tells other countries all the time what to do or not to do? Papua New Guinea?

The question was: Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

As for Germany, it has to do what the US tells is to do because it spends no money on defense and instead relies on all the US taxpayer money to maintain a massive military presence there to protect it's sorry little ass.

But we were talking about a real country - England.

[yoshiwara]

Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

what country tells other countries all the time what to do or not to do? Papua New Guinea?

The question was: Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

As for Germany, it has to do what the US tells is to do because it spends no money on defense and instead relies on all the US taxpayer money to maintain a massive military presence there to protect it's sorry little ass.

But we were talking about a real country - England.

England may be a country when playing cricket or football, but otherwise in financial terms it is a part of the United Kingdom last time I checked (notwithstanding complicated oddities) Edited June 1, 2013 by yoshiwara

[NeverSure]

Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

what country tells other countries all the time what to do or not to do? Papua New Guinea?

The question was: Why would a country let others tell it what it has to do?

As for Germany, it has to do what the US tells is to do because it spends no money on defense and instead relies on all the US taxpayer money to maintain a massive military presence there to protect it's sorry little ass.

But we were talking about a real country - England.

England may be a country when playing cricket or football, but otherwise in financial terms it is a part of the United Kingdom last time I checked (notwithstanding complicated oddities)

There are four countries in the UK and I wasn't discussing Scotland, Ireland or Wales.

[chiang mai]

Methinks that using the term "Britain" solves the problem.

[NeverSure]

Well, not if you want to talk about England. Maybe I'm just brain dead, but I don't equate Scotland or Ireland with England, not even the people, and I haven't been to Wales so I don't know. As an outsider, I have a different view of England than I do the others. Not good or bad, but different. I've been to the three, and I didn't see a lot of similarity, good or bad.

[mccw]

Methinks that using the term "Britain" solves the problem.

There it is - what happened to the "Great" Britain

[NeverSure]

Methinks that using the term "Britain" solves the problem.

There it is - what happened to the "Great" Britain

Methinks it got overrun by PC leaders and Muslims and is now best called Britain. Nah, Great Britain is correct. Still, if I mean Scotland or Ireland or England or Wales, I say so.

Edited June 1, 2013 by NeverSure

[yoshiwara]

Methinks that using the term "Britain" solves the problem.

There it is - what happened to the "Great" Britain

Methinks it got overrun by PC leaders and Muslims and is now best called Britain. Nah, Great Britain is correct. Still, if I mean Scotland or Ireland or England or Wales, I say so.

As usual your thinking is hazy. Please refer to the Act of Union 1801 which superseded the one of 1707.

As per your 'overrun' comment typical of reactionary junk one might expect from someone who fails to understand why their observations are mostly dismissed as lightweight.

[NeverSure]

There it is - what happened to the "Great" Britain

Methinks it got overrun by PC leaders and Muslims and is now best called Britain. Nah, Great Britain is correct. Still, if I mean Scotland or Ireland or England or Wales, I say so.

As usual your thinking is hazy. Please refer to the Act of Union 1801 which superseded the one of 1707.

As per your 'overrun' comment typical of reactionary junk one might expect from someone who fails to understand why their observations are mostly dismissed as lightweight.

Yes if course. Always attack the messenger and let's not talk about UK or other EU immigration. Attacking the messenger makes one sound so brilliant and superior after all.

Is there anyone here including those from the EU who will defend immigration policies, or talk about what it's doing to government deficits?

Or is the EU perfect in every way, and totally immune from problems?

[NeverSure]

BTW I already said I love England and that extends to the UK. I still tell you that I will celebrate in the street if I hear that the UK pulled out of the EU and took its sovereignty back. I think the UK made a mistake subjecting itself to the EU, much of which is backward compared to the UK.

From my perspective, The UK rocks compared to most of the rest of the EU, with the possible exception of Germany. But Germany seems to call all of the shots for the Eurozone (and it's hard to blame them) but the UK has the history and culture to be proud of. I'm very happy for the UK that it kept its own currency. I'm betting that Germany wishes it had.

I wish only the best for the UK.

[chiang mai]

BTW I already said I love England and that extends to the UK. I still tell you that I will celebrate in the street if I hear that the UK pulled out of the EU and took its sovereignty back. I think the UK made a mistake subjecting itself to the EU, much of which is backward compared to the UK.

From my perspective, The UK rocks compared to most of the rest of the EU, with the possible exception of Germany. But Germany seems to call all of the shots for the Eurozone (and it's hard to blame them) but the UK has the history and culture to be proud of. I'm very happy for the UK that it kept its own currency. I'm betting that Germany wishes it had.

I wish only the best for the UK.

Now if only we could just do something about the people who live there!