What Can I Do With This Land?

[reenatinnakor]

hi. am new to this forum and thailand in general and new to farming and know nothing about crops and stuff and this rainy season malarkey - im a computer nerd by trade and the only thing i know about agriculture is that pork chop tastes good - and thats probably not even classed as agriculture cos a pig is not a crop, i think! so any feedback to my stupid questions would be appreciated. my girlfriend has 140 rai near phanom sarakham and i was wandering what would be the most profitable thing to do with it? i have asked her if she has the land deeds and the contracts with the government that states what she can do and cannot do. she and her family seems to think that they can do what they want (within reason) and there is no such thing as a contract stating the limits of their work. but then i asked ok, so lets grow some cocaine plants and they said no that would be illegal - so i said so there are rules and regulations about what you can grow!! and having seen the surroundings it seems the govt would only allow sweet potato, pineapple, eucalyptus and rubber tree (sounds like lavatory when the thais say it) - because thats the only thing i see growing around here, save the odd patches that look likes a rice field. so why is nothing else grown around here? she said its because the people are poor and these are the most feasible and economical things to grow and that the soil and weather cycles dictates too.

so i asked her in 30 years no one has grown anything different or someone with money has not suggested to someone here that they want to develop the land and build a factory or something like that? she said for sure no - which i find hard to believe. so my feeling is that the govt have put restrictions on what these poor neighbourhoods can grow or do with the land so that they can have some land and only a little bit of cash from their hard work. seems hardly worth it to me.

so say i wanted to grow a completely new crop or create an organic farm or build a factory on the land making sneakers or nike footballs or something like that, and i had the capital to do it, what would i need to do? will the givt tell me to f off before i even get to 1st base? and what is the reason behind everyone growing sweet potato!!

thanks for any advice!

chi

[IsaanAussie]

hi. am new to this forum and thailand in general and new to farming and know nothing about crops and stuff and this rainy season malarkey - im a computer nerd by trade and the only thing i know about agriculture is that pork chop tastes good - and thats probably not even classed as agriculture cos a pig is not a crop, i think! so any feedback to my stupid questions would be appreciated. my girlfriend has 140 rai near phanom sarakham and i was wandering what would be the most profitable thing to do with it? i have asked her if she has the land deeds and the contracts with the government that states what she can do and cannot do. she and her family seems to think that they can do what they want (within reason) and there is no such thing as a contract stating the limits of their work. but then i asked ok, so lets grow some cocaine plants and they said no that would be illegal - so i said so there are rules and regulations about what you can grow!! and having seen the surroundings it seems the govt would only allow sweet potato, pineapple, eucalyptus and rubber tree (sounds like lavatory when the thais say it) - because thats the only thing i see growing around here, save the odd patches that look likes a rice field. so why is nothing else grown around here? she said its because the people are poor and these are the most feasible and economical things to grow and that the soil and weather cycles dictates too.

so i asked her in 30 years no one has grown anything different or someone with money has not suggested to someone here that they want to develop the land and build a factory or something like that? she said for sure no - which i find hard to believe. so my feeling is that the govt have put restrictions on what these poor neighbourhoods can grow or do with the land so that they can have some land and only a little bit of cash from their hard work. seems hardly worth it to me.

so say i wanted to grow a completely new crop or create an organic farm or build a factory on the land making sneakers or nike footballs or something like that, and i had the capital to do it, what would i need to do? will the givt tell me to f off before i even get to 1st base? and what is the reason behind everyone growing sweet potato!!

thanks for any advice!

chi

Chi,

Two issues. First water, I do not know the area but like most of Thailand, no water, few dry season crops. Second, sweet potatoes will grow with very little input and are a consistently good cash crop that grows quickly.

Isaanaussie

[Khonwan]

Hi chi

Your girlfriend is correct (as is Isaanaussie). The government does not dictate what can or cannot be grown (obviously, illegal narcotic crops cannot be). You can build a factory should you wish, if the land has chanote title (not sure about Nor Sor 3); Sor Por Kor and squatter-rights land must be used for agriculture or activities supporting agriculture, which does include livestock. The sweet potatoes you are referring to are almost certainly cassava (tapioca).

Rgds

Khonwan

[IsaanAussie]

Hi chi

Your girlfriend is correct (as is Isaanaussie). The government does not dictate what can or cannot be grown (obviously, illegal narcotic crops cannot be). You can build a factory should you wish, if the land has chanote title (not sure about Nor Sor 3); Sor Por Kor and squatter-rights land must be used for agriculture or activities supporting agriculture, which does include livestock. The sweet potatoes you are referring to are almost certainly cassava (tapioca).

Rgds

Khonwan

Chi,

If Khonwan is correct and the potatoes are cassava, I take back the comment. No thanks, not for me.

As a general observation, there are no get rich schemes here in Thai farming. It is all about hard work and not different to most farming enterprises anywhere else. There is a shift in production economics with labour becoming scarcer and more expensive. This year machine cutting was cheaper than rice cut by hand near me. Tractors are becoming more numerous and ploughing after rain fed rice harvest is starting to be seen as a viable way to control weeds prior to the next planting. The takeout being that farming here is seeing capital replace the community based help-out schemes of the past.

Isaanaussie

[GungaDin]

Hi chi

Welcome to the forum.

I know as much about farming as you do.

Have you asked about the nearest water supply?

Without water you're stuffed.

Talked to the local water drilling guys?

Keep posting.

gd

[reenatinnakor]

thanks alot for your replies, very helpful. yes i guess water supply is an issue out here, but my girlfriends family are saying that the govt have secured a 500 rai area to build a water storage facility and will do in the next 2 years. i do see some cows grazing and the 1st thing i asked was how they can survive, theres no water!! but she said there is water but i dont think it will be a huge supply and i certainly cant see a river or a dam anywhere. but then they grow alot of rice in thailand so there must be water here.

it cant just be dictated by weather - they are allowed to grow rubber tree and that seems the most profitable thing to grow in these conditions? so why isnt most of the land filled with rubber trees? is it because of how long it takes to grow and take to market? - i mean i doubt the families around here can survive a few years without income waiting for the goods to flourish and go to market. i see just sweet potato everywhere. and that doesnt seem very productive, it takes 9 months to grow and take to market and then you plant it again. does the soil quality not erode? do they need to rotate the crops?

my gf has just shown me the attached docs for 7rai of her land. she said the govt came late last year to take aerial photos of everyones land and recovered the old existing land docs from the owners so they could produce this newer version, i guess this is like a title deed or something? but there seems little else documentation to go by.

might just build a ranch like South Fork and dig for oil! i dont know what else can be done apart from growing limited choice of crops or go the factory route. and like you said, if we cant grow narcotics then somewhere there must be some rules about what can and cannot be done?

thanks for any ideas.....IT is so much easier than farming! but thailand is awesome, i could stay here a long time.

chi

[Pakeha]

Search on rubber trees. You'll find a lot of info. For starters it will take about 7 years from planting before you see any revenue. Lot's of pro's to rubber trees but not the current price per kilo

[IsaanAussie]

Chi,

Where abouts is this heaven-on-a-stick land. If it is in my part of Isaan then the answer is there is nothing in the spoil (sorry, soil) to erode. Wait a couple of months and try digging a hole in it. Oh, by the way, don't embarrass yourself by buying a shovel or spade to dig that hole. Pick, dynamite, jack-hammer.... much more appropriate.

Issanaussie

[meadish_sweetball]

The title deed is a สปก Sor Por Kor which allows the person specified in the document to make use of the land under the Agricultural Land Reform Act, 1975 (B.E. 2518 ), and is subject to the rules, regulations and conditions stated by ALRO (the Agricultural Land Reform Office).

It is not a full-fledged chanote.

The website of ALRO has some information in English: http://www.alro.go.th/alro/eng_web/index.html

[Khonwan]

Hi chi

Welcome to the forum.

I know as much about farming as you do.

Have you asked about the nearest water supply?

Without water you're stuffed.

Talked to the local water drilling guys?

Keep posting.

gd

Hi GungaDin

Access to water is indeed much better, but not absolutely necessary. I have 200 rai but no borehole, creek, river, canal or piped water. I have a large pond but only use this for swimming (and previously for livestock drinking water). I harvest rainwater for all my house needs (two tanks hold over 100 tonne of water between them - enough for 7 months of no rain). I am quite content with this.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Khonwan]

thanks alot for your replies, very helpful. yes i guess water supply is an issue out here, but my girlfriends family are saying that the govt have secured a 500 rai area to build a water storage facility and will do in the next 2 years. i do see some cows grazing and the 1st thing i asked was how they can survive, theres no water!! but she said there is water but i dont think it will be a huge supply and i certainly cant see a river or a dam anywhere. but then they grow alot of rice in thailand so there must be water here.

it cant just be dictated by weather - they are allowed to grow rubber tree and that seems the most profitable thing to grow in these conditions? so why isnt most of the land filled with rubber trees? is it because of how long it takes to grow and take to market? - i mean i doubt the families around here can survive a few years without income waiting for the goods to flourish and go to market. i see just sweet potato everywhere. and that doesnt seem very productive, it takes 9 months to grow and take to market and then you plant it again. does the soil quality not erode? do they need to rotate the crops?

my gf has just shown me the attached docs for 7rai of her land. she said the govt came late last year to take aerial photos of everyones land and recovered the old existing land docs from the owners so they could produce this newer version, i guess this is like a title deed or something? but there seems little else documentation to go by.

might just build a ranch like South Fork and dig for oil! i dont know what else can be done apart from growing limited choice of crops or go the factory route. and like you said, if we cant grow narcotics then somewhere there must be some rules about what can and cannot be done?

thanks for any ideas.....IT is so much easier than farming! but thailand is awesome, i could stay here a long time.

chi

Sor Por Kor land, and as I've said, it must be used for agriculture or activities supporting agriculture, which does include livestock. No non-ag factories, no ownership of minerals/oil under the ground, no golf course, etc. The sweet potatoes you are referring to are almost certainly cassava (tapioca), i.e. not sweet potatoes. As I've also said, there is no list of crops that you are allowed to plant (under anti-narcotic laws, you cannot plant narcotics - not under ag regulations). In the case of cassava you ask if the soil erodes and if crop rotation should not be required - the answers are: not necessarily and yes - read pinned cassava thread for more on this.

[reenatinnakor]

Search on rubber trees. You'll find a lot of info. For starters it will take about 7 years from planting before you see any revenue. Lot's of pro's to rubber trees but not the current price per kilo

yes. they mentioned that it takes 8 years from seed to revenue so not very feasible if they need annual upkeep. thanks for all the replies. i will do more thinking and research.

[GungaDin]

Hi chi

I know as much about farming as you do.

Keep posting.

gd

Hi GungaDin

Access to water is indeed much better, but not absolutely necessary. I have 200 rai but no borehole, creek, river, canal or piped water. I have a large pond but only use this for swimming (and previously for livestock drinking water). I harvest rainwater for all my house needs (two tanks hold over 100 tonne of water between them - enough for 7 months of no rain). I am quite content with this.

Rgds

Khonwan

See, I told ya I know bugger all about farming!

(I know a bit about redclaw yabbies though)

PS Tell us about your rainwater harvesting tanks, concrete or plastics?

Above ground or buried?

cheers

gd

[soundman]

Being in Panom Sarakahm, you are only about 30km's away from one of the main Double A facilities. This makes looking at Eucalypt a very attractive option, also, one that doesn't rely heavily on water.

Have a look around that area, you will see that the two main crops being grown are Euca and Mun (potatoe or cassava).

[Khonwan]

PS Tell us about your rainwater harvesting tanks, concrete or plastics?

Above ground or buried?

cheers

gd

Catch it here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1870492

Rgds

Khonwan

[Khonwan]

Edit: Double post - Internet problems

Edited January 27, 2009 by Khonwan

[reenatinnakor]

Sor Por Kor land, and as I've said, it must be used for agriculture or activities supporting agriculture, which does include livestock. No non-ag factories, no ownership of minerals/oil under the ground, no golf course, etc. The sweet potatoes you are referring to are almost certainly cassava (tapioca), i.e. not sweet potatoes. As I've also said, there is no list of crops that you are allowed to plant (under anti-narcotic laws, you cannot plant narcotics - not under ag regulations). In the case of cassava you ask if the soil erodes and if crop rotation should not be required - the answers are: not necessarily and yes - read pinned cassava thread for more on this.

Thanks. Understand more now. So with sorporkor anything that is done on the land has to be deemed agricultural, so can have factory that processes plants but cant have factory that makes clothes. And with the chanote title deed that is more open and can do more of what you want? How can you change from sorporkor to chanote? Is that possible or not worth it? The majority of what is grown looks like the attached images - this is sweet potato? What about the taxes on the land? Are they paid annually and do they amount to much?

On another topic - whats the best way to get a visa extension? Im on a british passport so only get one month. I just read that a visa run cross border by land will only get me another 15 days. I do have a ticket to go to HK and can come back but then in another month will have to do it again. I guess they will question me at some point if i was to keep doing it so might as well try and go legitimate. Is it difficult to get a long stay visa?

Thanks!!

C

[jubby]

How to change from Sor Por Kor to Chanote, now thats a good question.

I suspect there are thousand of Thais and Farangs who would like to know the answer to that one. Its something that will have to come out in the wash one day ;-)

I could be wrong but I think Sor Por Gor is granted to a 'named' person and is allowed to be transfered to his family only. or something like that.

You cannot sell it to someone else, but everyman and his Dog has Sold it to someone else. I Think you have the paper with someone elses name on it , pay an anuall fee to the government and hope someone sorts out this mess later , Much later.

maybe there is a way of doing it for a price; I don't know ;-)

As for VISA's , pretty easy as long as you qualify. best post in the Visa section, The Moderators on here are Keen ;-)

[soihok]

A little off topic, but how about moving away from a cash crop to an investment and grow trees.

25-30 years could see a very handsome harvest, I,ve not looked into this ,,,only a thought.

Wife has 16 rai of farm land near Korat, I suggested build a medium sized roller coaster out of local timber, but no one was up for it for some reason.

So its growing chilli and cassava.

Cheers

[jubby]

Growing Trees thats what I do with the land. Lots of teak and now looking for some other species to plant. Thought about Rubber but I'm thinking its too labour intensive. might just let nature take its course and see what regenerates naturally. Good Investment financially ? Who knows.

[soihok]

Its worth looking into . Hardwoods that are sort after now will be premium in about 30 years time.

All depends if the land you have must produce a cash crop to support dependents.

And where it is,,geographically.

It depends if cash is needed immediately(annually).

I think I,ll look into this further.

[soihok]

What may regenerate naturally may be not be desirable.

But I share your enthusism(?).

The natural regeneration around my place seems to be mini marts.

[GungaDin]

The natural regeneration around my place seems to be mini marts.

[Khonwan]

Thanks. Understand more now. So with sorporkor anything that is done on the land has to be deemed agricultural, so can have factory that processes plants but cant have factory that makes clothes. Correct.

And with the chanote title deed that is more open and can do more of what you want? Correct.

How can you change from sorporkor to chanote? Is that possible or not worth it? You can't. The government does so from time to time, area by area. It is out of your control.

The majority of what is grown looks like the attached images - this is sweet potato? No - this is cassava (not a potato, and not sweet in the case of the commercial varieties grown here).

What about the taxes on the land? Are they paid annually and do they amount to much? Yes, paid annually. I've posted in the past but can't recall just now exactly how much - around 40 baht (70 baht?) per rai per year...in other words, virtually nothing.

On another topic - whats the best way to get a visa extension? Im on a british passport so only get one month. I just read that a visa run cross border by land will only get me another 15 days. I do have a ticket to go to HK and can come back but then in another month will have to do it again. I guess they will question me at some point if i was to keep doing it so might as well try and go legitimate. Is it difficult to get a long stay visa? As advised by jubby, post your extension of stay question in the Visa Forum (with a WHOLE LOT more detail...like whether you are working, have a Thai wife or children, or are retired).

Thanks!! You're welcome!

C

Rgds

Khonwan

[jubby]

What may regenerate naturally may be not be desirable.

But I share your enthusism(?).

The natural regeneration around my place seems to be mini marts.

The Enthusiasm , Which I think neither of us can spell ;-) Comes and goes ;-)

You'll be suprised what pops up if you give it a chance. When we cut the grass I make sure that anything interesting is given a fighting chance.

There's quite a few different trees species poping up alongside the teak. Its my little stand against monoculture. Quite interesting actually, I must have been a tree hugger in a past life.

I too think there should be some money in Timber in 30 ish years for the Kids and if not at least its envirmonmentally friendly.

[Iamemjay]

The normal Thai farmer's choice of crop is dictated by 3 main issues:

• suitability of conditions (soil fertility, availability of water and weather)
  
• their financial means (usually zilch, leading to quick return cash crops)
  
• marketing infrastructure
  

The government does not dictate what a farmer may or may not grow, but their decisions on what marketing infrastructure it will encourage in a particular district in effect does this - because most farmers will not have the means to get their produce to market other than via the locally provided packing houses/buyers etc etc.

To illustrate this point, I live near Fang (Chiangmai) where the "approved crops" - ie. where marketing infrastucture exists - are tangerines and lychees - and that's what most farmers, including my wife and I, grow. But there is NOTHING to stop a farmer going outside the "system" and choosing another crop, but in making that decision they will have to work out how they will get the produce to market. So when I decided that we would multicrop our lychee farm and grow arabica coffee too, I had to address the question of where I would sell my harvest.

In your area sweet potatoes must be the 'approved" crop and I would predict that there is a good setup of buyers, packing houses, transport etc for it.

If you are willing to step outside the system and grow something else, as long as you can answer the marketing question adequately, go for it!

To throw my tuppence worth in, instead of teak, why not look at some of the other harvest timbers in Thailand - yes, eucalypt (I have a plantation of that in a very low rainfall areas of Australia) or the "teak substitutes" ie termite proof timbers that have a VERY high ROI and do not need supplementary watering once established (You might need to put in a small dam to catch a rainy season's supply of water just for the trees' first few months.) I understand the type that is grown around here is harvested in about 10-12 years.

Near here a farmer with a relatively large lot has just ripped out all his tangerines and planted rubber. There is absolutely NO infrastructure for rubber within hundreds of kilometres from here, so I can only conclude that he decided his farm is big enough to provide those marketing means himself. Your wife's land would I dare say fall into the same category, provided you have the capital and can wait 7 years or so for any return.

Best of luck!!

Iamemjay

[chrisyork]

I agree wholeheartedly with the primacy of marketing infrastructure! Round where I live we have a Thai-Danish milk processing plant, so everyone rears dairy cows. Any crops are directed towards cattle feed. Any deviation from this engenders a lot of effort getting the product sold. Thai's aren't known for volunteering for a lot of effort!

You didn't address the soil quality / water issue. Near us we have spike of limestone plateau poking through the aluvial plain. I've looked longingly at this and thought how much like Greece it looks. This has prompted thoughts of olive trees. Anybody seen any in Thailand, any experience?

Chris

[NamSod]

hi. am new to this forum and thailand in general and new to farming

I have a similar situation. My wife is Thai and I am American. I am in IT and we have just a small plot of land (7 rai) which is more than enough for our little piece of paradise. The land is outside of Chiang Rai proper with a nice fast flowing canal/river next to it.

I used to be a horticulturist managing plant nurseries in Florida back in the '80's and '90's before getting into IT.

Professionally speaking as a horticulturist and descended from a long line of mid-western farmers (Illinois), my advice is, start small. Plants take time but are the most rewarding. I have honestly been considering growing hemp. I am talking about the industrial type that has very low thc and is apparently legal to grow in Thailand. The Akha grow it to make their hemp clothing. Its truly a miracle plant with upwards of 25,000 different products being made from it.

I have been looking for processing factories nearby but China appears to be the closest place so far. I have found many videos on Youtube about hemp growing and processing in China. Hemp grows to maturity in about 90 days and grows on poor soil. Water is still necessary.

The bottom line is, you will not get rich by farming in Thailand. Your goal should be to relax and enjoy life. Stop thinking like an American and above all else, dont give us farangs a bad name or should I say a worse name as many thais resent farang for 'taking' their land in the first place. Be nice and make 'mai pen rai' a big part of your daily language.

Peace and good luck!

Edited February 2, 2009 by NamSod

[reenatinnakor]

Thanks for more insight..... Especially the comments about the local marketing system in place makes alot of sense and I guess why everyone grows similar cos it works in their region. These people cant afford to take a niche risk I guess, mouths to feed and harvest comes only once or twice a year to feed those mouths. So what use is cassava then? Just cos the system dictates it, do they have to do it 90%!! They seem to grow it everywhere here. Is it just grown by default because it takes no effort and gets some centavos in the pockets of these communes come harvest? Will look it up on wikipedia. Philippines which has a similar climate to here, i saw grow loads of sugar cane, mangoes, bananas and rice and all in different areas - but i not see much of that here, maybe just where I am they dont grow it. But then I dont see much rice grown where I am near Chachoengsao either - but in the UK every single chinese restaurant have sacks of Thai Longgrain Rice in the garden shed!

Growing hemp sounds interesting with that quick turnaround. And we probably have enough land to build own processing factory if we solve the water supply issue.

Well got my visa so might as well stay here for another 3 months and see if I can work something out with the girlfriend. Better than being in the snow with no mountains in the UK!

And why why why why why are there no Mcdonalds anywhere?!! I thought that franchise makes money everywhere? I must have been on various buses for more than 20 hours on small roads and highways going to Ubon Ratchanthani then to Vientiane to get my visa and I did not see one single golden arches sign anywhere! I mean not one!! What is the probability of that? Isnt there some statistic that you will see the golden M after every 2 minutes of driving on any road on the planet??? Are they banned from thailand or something? Anyone want to go 50/50 on a franchise?!

CT

[GungaDin]

You were doing ok until you got to the macdonalds bit!