'Ruling out the foreigner'

[PNG]

and that is the text in thai for married foreigner let your wife read it so she can explain it to you

best regards

Pee Nok Gaeow (PNG)

สามีซึ่งเป็นคนต่างด้าวให้ความอุปการะแก่ภรรยาคนสัญชาติไทย

หรือเป็นผู้มีถิ่น ที่อยู่ในราชอาณาจักร ให้พิจารณาในทางไม่อนุญาตเว้นแต่สมรสกันโดยชอบด้วยกฎหมาย สามีประกอบอาชีพเป็นหลักฐานและมีรายได้สูงพอที่จะอุปการะภรรยาได้

หลักฐานและเอกสารประกอบการพิจารณาใบสำคัญการสมรสสูติบัตรบุตร (ถ้ามี)

หลักฐานแสดงฐานะทางการเงินของสามี หนังสือรับรองการทำงาน

ใบอนุญาตทำงาน หลักฐานแสดงว่ามีภรรยาเป็นคนสัญชาติไทย หรือเป็นผู้มีถิ่นอยู่ในราชอาณาจักร บันทึกถ้อยคำของสามีและภรรยา หลักฐานแสดงความเป็นโสดจากสถานทูต ยกเว้น กรณีหญิงไทยมีบุตรกับคนต่างด้าว และนำสูติบัตรมาแสดง เงื่อนไขและแนวทางการปฏิบัติ

สามีซึ่งเป็นคนต่างด้าวต้องมี เงินฝากไม่น้อยกว่า 4 แสนบาท เพื่อไว้ใช้จ่ายในรอบ 1 ปี หรือ มีรายได้ประจำไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ 4 หมื่นบาท หรือกรณีมีทั้งเงินฝากและรายได้ประจำแต่ไม่ถึงเกณฑ์ดังกล่าวข้างต้นให้คำนวณรายได้ประจำต่อเดือนเป็นหลักโดยเฉลี่ยนเงินฝากกับรายได้ประจำต่อ เดือนตามเกณฑ์การครองชีพไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ 4 หมื่นบาท การพิจารณาให้พิจารณาอนุญาตตามฐานะการเงิน กรณีมีเงินฝากหรือรายได้ประจำเดือนอย่างใดอย่างหนึ่งเพียงอย่างเดียว แต่ไม่ถึงเกณฑ์ที่กำหนดไว้ (4 แสนบาท หรือ 4 หมื่นบาท) ให้พิจารณาไม่อนุญาต

   

Full Thai text link:

http://www.gmorning.info/features_ruling_o...oreigner_th.htm

Thailand ruling out foreigners? New immigration rules from July, 2004

 Lt-Col. Banpote Kittiweera, Inspector of Chiang Mai Immigration Office. A charming man with a serious message. --PHOTO: CHIANGMAI NEWS

Immigration proposals in effect from July, 2004

A foreign husband wants to look after a Thai wife

The foreign husband must have not less than 400,000b in the bank or earnings of at least 40,000b per month.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Your beliefs are well founded. I continually warn members about some of the wild political statements made on here    for that very reason.  If the Government thought farangs    were nutters before, now they are certain. It seem to be     so illogical that some have next to no resources to call on    in case of unforeseen circumstances affecting them or their family.

[mrentoul]

Just because people don't have a lot of money doesn't make them the dregs of society

True. Please read that comment in the context of the stuff on terrorism which follows.

[pnustedt]

Is there other countries in the world that dictate what income a foreigner from a specific country has to earn to gain a work permit?  Is there discriminatory  rules such as these in other Asian countries?  Would be interested to know.

Yes. In Hong Kong domestic workers (usually Philippino,Thai or Indonesian) have different visas with a min. wage, employers pay a special tax and they do not obtain permanent residency as others can.

Every country has discriminatory laws and policies when it comes to immigration.

In Thailand there are many bogus companies set up for purposes other than trading - e.g. a back door way for a farang to own land. I am not surprised that the government wishes to curtail this activity.

I believe the sums required for retirement and marriage visas (income and/or deposits) are not unreasonable - I really do wonder how people imagine they are going to live/support a family on less. However, if there are people already legally resident in Thailand who can demonstrate that they are supporting themselves and their families on less, they should be left alone.

[marty]

DaveYo,

Exactly my thoughts. They can make it as difficult as they want for foreigners with the new rules.

[mrentoul]

do you really think these laws will effect the people they are targetting , the criminals and terrorists ? of course not.

and as for the dregs comment well over 70 percent of the population of thailand earn less than 5000 baht a month legally i.e without the black economy.are all these people dregs then ?

Yes to the first, or I wouldn't have said it. No to the second. We're not talking about Thais but westerners, who as PatPong says should have money to fall back on if they are living in a foreign land.

It seem to be     so illogical that some have next to no resources to call on    in case of unforeseen circumstances affecting them or their family.

Well put.

In Hong Kong domestic workers (usually Philippino,Thai or Indonesian) have different visas with a min. wage, employers pay a special tax and they do not obtain permanent residency as others can.

Every country has discriminatory laws and policies when it comes to immigration.

Exactly. Puts all the claptrap spouted here on racism into perspective. Everybody's doing it.

In Thailand there are many bogus companies set up for purposes other than trading - e.g. a back door way for a farang to own land. I am not surprised that the government wishes to curtail this activity.

I believe the sums required for retirement and marriage visas (income and/or deposits) are not unreasonable - I really do wonder how people imagine they are going to live/support a family on less. However, if there are people already legally resident in Thailand who can demonstrate that they are supporting themselves and their families on less, they should be left alone.

More good sense. This poster appears to have undergone a conversion.

[TRIPxCORE]

I read the link that George posted on here that came from the BKK Bureau of Immigration.  According to that link, my understanding is that monetary requirements for Non-IM O visa holders (foreign men married to Thai national) is 400,000 Baht AND 40,000 Baht per month.  Is that right or wrong?  Many people on here are saying one or the other but not both.  I took it to mean both.

[mattes]

Uhm what a palava!

Although it isn't mentioned I am assuming that if you invest 10million bht you can still obtain permanent residency?

[mrentoul]

.  You are lucky as you work for a large company that pay good wages. Many foreign folks have to work for much less for smaller companies who can't afford fat cat expat packages.

I'm not on a fat-cat expat package, as you put it. But what I am doing is working, unlike many of the westerners who toss in their lives to follow their girlfriends/wives to a country where neither is ever likely to earn much. You paid that price a long time ago, and I suggest you try to live with it.

...(some foreigners are prepared to work for less to be able to stay in Thailand).

You don't say. I happen to be one of them.

...Working on the basis of money will not keep the sex tourists, terrorists or undesireables out of Thailand.

Too early to tell.

...The whole point about living in Thailand (and putting up with quite a few disadvantages) is because it is cheap and warm. Remove the cheapness, and it losses its advantage. Then people look elsewhere to make their megre pensions/funds go further...

You sound like you think you're doing Thailand a favour by being here. You're not. It's the other way around.

[KhunKiKiad]

dear forum members that are the rules in thai

http://www.gmorning.info/features_ruling_o...oreigner_th.htm

i'm sorry for the person translate this to english it is enough 400.000.-THB or 40.000.-THB a month and the officer was wherry friendly the way he explain it so please no panic slow down if you don't believe translate it be a qualified interpreter

best gegards

to all

Immigration proposals in effect from July, 2004

EXACTLY

The officer was MUCH friendlier than the tone the translator used...and the 400 000 OR...REPEAT 0R...40 000 per month is very clear. (The word RUE is used...it means OR)

IMO the *cough* journalism used is very, very poor...and seems to have an agenda.

Vey irresponsible given the fact the journ would know 1005 this is an importnat topic for a lot of people.

[TizMe]

You sound like you think you're doing Thailand a favour by being here. You're not. It's the other way around.

Surely it is of mutual benefit. Even if the farang is living up country and only earning 20,000 BHT per month, this is 20,000 BHT that is being added to the local ecconomy. Ie. its being spent up country in mum and dad small businesses.

Furthermore, its being spent each and every month, so 240,000 BHT per year.

To Taksin and his cronies, this is peanuts. But to the local small businesses it is an important part of their income.

[pschef]

to pschef.........No i dont.Your friend the retired

guy used a 30 days stamp. Yes or no. You say everyone

have to pay 1000 bath. For touristvisa. non imm. 1 years

all have to pay right or wrong.Maybe im a little bit stupid

or too old 65

Once again thanks

TO PAVINA

My friend has a retirement visa, he is required to go and present himself to immigration. They told him if he went out to burma, that would cancel his visa and require him to re-apply. He told me all tourists were being charged 1000 for the day trip visa, more than this I dont know. It sounds like they are charging everyone to walk over, that means any kind of visa. I hope that clears this for you?? ???

[opalhort]

Hi,

somebody mentioned "family income" and "...between the two of you ... should be able to scratch together enough.." in reference to the 40K/month income.

as I understand it the income has to be in the name of the foreigner, evidenced by tax forms

ภ.ง.ด.90/91 and/or ภ.ง.ด.1 and 1ก

a family income of 100K is meaningless if the foreigner's income is below 40K.

here in Thailand the husband is still regarded as the head of the household and the breadwinner. evidence about this can be seen in the forms ภ.ง.ด.90/91 when you file a combined tax return.

did I understand this correct? if not maybe somebody could educate me.

Thanks

Rainer

[pschef]

dear forum members that are the rules in thai

http://www.gmorning.info/features_ruling_o...oreigner_th.htm

i'm sorry for the person translate this to english it is enough 400.000.-THB or 40.000.-THB a month and the officer was wherry friendly the way he explain it so please no panic slow down if you don't believe translate it be a qualified interpreter

best gegards

to all

Immigration proposals in effect from July, 2004

This is the first time I read something constructive, sorry since the start of this post. I feel a little less scary now, thank you

[mrentoul]

Surely it is of mutual benefit. Even if the farang is living up country and only earning 20,000 BHT per month, this is 20,000 BHT that is being added to the local ecconomy

I'm getting tired of these circuitous arguments. You guys just don't seem to get it. It's not your country, ergo the government is doing you a favour by letting you live here at all, never mind how much it charges for the privilege.

To put it another way, what do you bring to the bargaining table? You get to live here courtesy of your relationship with your wife. Now what...anything? How many countries let foreigners in the door for free?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

PSCHEF was the re-entry permit of 500 baht ex budget ? If a 12 month visa holder leaves the country without  a re-entry permit means the visa is at an end, and it necessitates going to another country and applying for an O visa and going thru the whole process again. And restarting the period of qualification for a resident visa.

[TizMe]

How many countries let foreigners in the door for free?

If they are legitimately married to a local, I would think that many countries would allow the foreigner to stay.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

MRENTOUL logic is not part of the equation in the debate here. In the past we have agreed to disagree, but I am with you here. Not one poster ever talked of the possibility of any happening to him or his family that might need a little nest egg to carry them through. Maybe the self sustaining  grower can do his own quad bypass.

[morphic]

The story today confirming that 'Or' as opposed to 'And' for savings and income means the requirement to obtain a one year visa is no where near as onerous and difficult as previously thought. In fact, I would say savings of 400,000 baht or earnings of 40,000 a month are a modest requirement, but necessary in order to ensure long stay visitors are indeed able to support themselves and/or their families. So this now seems to clear up a confused and frightening prospect.

I was therefore quite happy to read today's story. What I wasn't happy about was the wording. I think it was uncouth and insulting to talk about foreigners in terms of their 'quality'. Why not just state the financial requirement and explain it in terms of minimising the risk to Thailand of foreigners becoming burdens on the country rather than benefits? I doubt somehow this choise of wording was due to language problems. Rather, I suspect, it comes down to the attitude that certain people in authority have. Unforunately the attitude their wording reveals probably means further difficulties and threats await the falang, but we will just have to wait and see what they turn out to be.

For the moment though, most of us can probably stop worrying.

[TizMe]

Why not just state the financial requirement and explain it in terms of minimising the risk to Thailand of foreigners becoming burdens on the country rather than benefits?

How can we become a burden? We won't be lining up for unemployment benefits or sitting on the steps at MBK asking passers by for 5 baht.

If your logic is true, then maybe non returnable deposit to a bank account equivelent to the airfare home should do.

[TizMe]

I think it was uncouth and insulting to talk about foreigners in terms of their 'quality'.

I agree, if 'quality' is measured by $$$$ then i guess Mr Osama Bin Laden would be a foreigner of the highest quality.

[pschef]

PSCHEF was the re-entry permit of 500 baht ex budget ? If a 12 month visa holder leaves the country without  a re-entry permit means the visa is at an end, and it necessitates going to another country and applying for an O visa and going thru the whole process again. And restarting the period of qualification for a resident visa.

Dear Dr PP,

My friend has a 1 year retirement visa still not complete, hence the trips every month. The visa fee asked to walkover to Burma was 1000 Baht, thats for everyone I believe.

Thats why I was surprised he was refused, maybe because the process for 1 year retirement visa still is incomplete? but charging Tourists I have no idea why this has started ???

[jonwilly]

pschef, what you mean to say is that your friend does not have a retirement visa, does this mean he is on 30 day tourist visa's, hence the 1,000 B fee.

jon

[Dasekel]

mrentol: Obviously many people don't get it.

To put it another way, what do you bring to the bargaining table? You get to live here courtesy of your relationship with your wife. Now what...anything? How many countries let foreigners in the door for free?

Thailand, as many other countries in the world, benefits from having foreigners living and working here, at least from many of them. As did the USA and as do other countries all over the world, whether developing or developed countries.

It is not about who is exclusively profiting or who has the sole benefits. Both side benefit and this is good so and should be increased even more.

The new law on immigration will do the opposite and unfortunately it demonstrates the shift of the government (or the wealthy members of Thai society?) to more Xenophobia and materialism.

The fact that the new law has the potential to break up and perhaps even destroy families, just because a member of it is a foreigner, is shocking in a country where the family has traditionally a very high value.

Some may argue that the family need not break up if the Thai member(s) of the family join the foreign member(s) back to his/her/their homecountry. Maybe, but this would mean that Thailand is expelling Thai Nationals from their own homeland because they made the mistake to have a foreign family member.

Foreigners living in Thailand shall play their part and perform their duties to integrate themselves into Thai society and contribute to its well-being and development. In turn the government should be fair to those living and working here, especially if they are part of a Thai family.

The Taksin government has shown many times that it is not willing to do so and this is another disastrous step in the wrong direction.

Viet Nam will be happy in coming years to receive those who like to live and work in Southeast Asia but are no longer wellcome in Thailand.

[Spellbound]

My friend has a 1 year retirement visa still not complete, hence the trips every month. The visa fee asked to walkover to Burma was 1000 Baht, thats for everyone I believe.

Thats why I was surprised he was refused, maybe because the process for 1 year retirement visa still is incomplete? but charging Tourists I have no idea why this has started

Maybe this is the start of charging all tourists a visa fee, just how much baht would they collect at the airports Bangkok, Chai-Mai and Phuket.  ( JUST A THOUGHT ) If the immagration have not yet finished with thier new rulings  could they bolt this on aswell? .  We have to pay when we go to Cambodia etc !!!!!!

[Thaiboxer]

For all of the foreigners living and working in Thailand, this is a complete outrage!!! It exposes the blatant disregard for those who, in terms of their contributions, have helped Thailand's economy tremendously not to mention helping the Thai people learn about their visitors' world. Not every foreigner who visits Thailand has good intentions, but slamming the door in all our faces is not the answer. What if all the foreign countries did this to Thais? With this negative and ignorant attitude composed of fear and propaganda, Thailand as a nation will not get anywhere in the international scheme and will no doubt wind up an isolated nation in its own misery while the rest of the world moves on.

    It's time for those who have authority to realize that not all foreigners living here reflect the lifestyles and attitudes portrayed in Western films and that not all foreigners disrespect Thailand or its culture. Many Thais have made their home in my homeland (USA) and are helping our economy by being good citizens and working hard. It's true that most people would like to see their nation being settled by quality people, but then again, just what makes one a "quality person?" Is it a good and honest person or just anybody who has a lot of money? I think the second factor is used to determine "quality" more than anything else. It's a real shame, however, there will be those understand the problem us foreign nationals are facing will try to help us out.

[stanley89]

Nobody so far has commented on the exchange rate used by the Thai Immigration.  I am a retiree and every year I declare my pension (700 pounds UK per month) and my bank balance.  Last year (bank exchange rate 65 baht to the pound) immigration used their rate of 60 baht to the pound to convert my pension.  This year (bank exchange rate 64 baht to the pound immigration used their rate of 55 baht to the pound.  No explanation, no argument.  I know by now it's useless and against my interests to argue.  I just about scraped in this year, but I'll have to save something for next year it might be 40 baht to the pound by then.

[Butterfly]

Without the foreigners, Thailand would still be in the stone age and the population living in the forests.

However, this does not mean that the farangs should "immigrate" and have a "blank" cheque to do all they want here. I can understand the Thais need some kind of control by keeping the foreigners out. The laws in the western world to keep immigrants out are far worse than those in Thailand. Try to immigrate to the US or Europe and see what you will get.

I don't really have an answer for this change of situation and I am pretty much split on this issue.

[Dasekel]

No comments to the stoneage, etc., but

However, this does not mean that the farangs should "immigrate" and have a "blank" cheque to do all they want here. I can understand the Thais need some kind of control by keeping the foreigners out. The laws in the western world to keep immigrants out are far worse than those in Thailand. Try to immigrate to the US or Europe and see what you will get.

misses the point again.

If you are married to a European and want to live together with your family in the homecountry of your spouse you will not be confronted with a similar dilemma as it is going to be created in Thailand.

Part of the mess concerns the total disregard of families in this contexy. If the foreigner cannot cough up enough "Ami go home". His family can join or decide to "live happily separated" since.

[mrvietnam2001]

Is there other countries in the world that dictate what income a foreigner from a specific country has to earn to gain a work permit?  Is there discriminatory  rules such as these in other Asian countries?  Would be interested to know.

Yes. In Hong Kong domestic workers (usually Philippino,Thai or Indonesian) have different visas with a min. wage, employers pay a special tax and they do not obtain permanent residency as others can.

Every country has discriminatory laws and policies when it comes to immigration.

In Thailand there are many bogus companies set up for purposes other than trading - e.g. a back door way for a farang to own land. I am not surprised that the government wishes to curtail this activity.

I believe the sums required for retirement and marriage visas (income and/or deposits) are not unreasonable - I really do wonder how people imagine they are going to live/support a family on less. However, if there are people already legally resident in Thailand who can demonstrate that they are supporting themselves and their families on less, they should be left alone.

"""In Thailand there are many bogus companies set up for purposes other than trading - e.g. a back door way for a farang to own land. I am not surprised that the government wishes to curtail this activity.""""

Real good point.

Hmmmmmmm could the foundation for  a major property grab starting!

Mr Vietnam