Converting Rice Land To Pasture

[BillyBobThai]

The in-laws have 20 rai that is being rented for growing rice once a year. My thought is to plant it with some sort of good grass and section off the field into 3 to 5 rai sections. With this I could put paw-in-laws, 20, local breed of cattle on it and change them to a new section every 4 to 5 days and turn a profit? He currently pays someone 100 baht head to move them around each day to feed. With a well fertilizered pasture, fenceded in, divided into smaller sections, how many cattle can I carry on 20 rai? What would be a good grass to grow in the Pichit area?

Many thanks.

[teletiger]

Ruzzie (Ruzziensis brachiara...spelling?) mixed with a legume (centro worked well for me) would be the choice. You don't mention irrigation. No rain from November to March, with not much in July usually. 10 cattle on 20 rai would need copious irrigation (pond water, not bore) and heavy urea. If it's grazed too low, it takes an age to come back, if at all. Keep them off it during heavy rain, otherwise you get a section of mud. Feed supplement during the dry season, as the cold nights will slow growth. Native grasses have only half the protein value of ruzzie, but grow twice as fast.....so take your pick. Are you talking about cow/calf pairs or beef cows? Then there's the price of calves or beef at the moment. Not something I'm keen to get back into. Plenty of better things to do with 20 Rai. :D IMHO.

Regards.

[Bizz]

The in-laws have 20 rai that is being rented for growing rice once a year. My thought is to plant it with some sort of good grass and section off the field into 3 to 5 rai sections. With this I could put paw-in-laws, 20, local breed of cattle on it and change them to a new section every 4 to 5 days and turn a profit? He currently pays someone 100 baht head to move them around each day to feed. With a well fertilizered pasture, fenceded in, divided into smaller sections, how many cattle can I carry on 20 rai? What would be a good grass to grow in the Pichit area?

Many thanks.

Have you checked the price of cattle lately buy buffallo.

[Pond Life]

Brachiara Ruziziesis.

I read that it needs good fertile soil.

Any suggestions for a forage grass that needs less fertile soil ?

Has to be available in Thailand.

Also where do you buy seed for this type of thing, agricultural shop, Royal project ?

[Maizefarmer]

With the most intensly managed piece of land you could get between 1.5 - 2 head per rai - but that is with intense management (i.e. on second thoughts forget strip grazing - there'll be too much hoof damage). To achieve this yield, excellent soil, irrigation and an ideal soil/grass match wil also be needed.

I doubt this will be possible with ex rice-paddie land - the soil just won't be able to carry it.

Ruzzi (or "Lucy" as the Thai's call it) will not growth well on ex rice paddie's. It will grow, but your yields will be low low low, and regrowth will be slow - and it tends to come out pretty tough on rice land as well - right from the start, as opposed to the toughness generally only starting after multiple re-cuts. It is an excellent forage grass given the right conditions, but on rice land its going to be very difficult to manage after the first or second cut. My advise: give Ruzzi a miss in this case - it needs well prepeared soil with good drainage, just for starters. If you do get it going, you will quickly find the work and cost invloved keeping like that will just not be worth it.

So just what will be viable? I am not sure anything will be at the density ratio you have indicated, but before you through any money at it, get a soil test done - salt residue is the big problem in crop going on ex rice paddie land - you will want to know just how much there is in the soil, and neutralise it before trying to grow a good quality grass forage crop, and secondly, you are going to have to reduce the amount of cattle you want to feed off that land. I think you'll struggle to maintain much more than 10 -12 head.

... and then there are a whole bunch other considerations.

- is this a ful time conversion, or are you intending to revert back to rice each season?

- do you have ample water for irrigation and what is it going to cost to irrigate in the dry season versus buying in fresh forage?

Whats possible to do is often very different to what is viable i.e. while, depending on the soil condition, it may be possible to get a good grass forage crop to grow on this land, the cost of managing it to may well be so much that it is not viable.

20rai is a rather large lot size to start off with. I would suggest you start off with a test lot of about 1 or 2 rai at most: cultivate that area for 2 - 3 recuts, during which time you will be able to get a fair idea of what the yields (kg) are for each cut, how long (time) it needs to grow between cuts, how much water needs to be applied, how much fertiliser and lastly, how much each yield drops from cut to cut - because it will start dropping quite rapidly at some point (which means reseeding/replanting and no feed during that time). In summary: if you want to maintain a herd of cattle off a set area of managed forage crop, it needs to be carefully planned out otherwise it can turn into an expensive failure - try getting forage in the dry season! - can be a nightmare (and very expensive).

[loong]

Also, how much will it cost to fence off these sections?

[teletiger]

Fencing off (electric) 1 section at a time, to enclose the cattle and costs will be minimal.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Not withstanding TeleTigers reply to your question about cost of fencing (agreed, won't cost much) - this suggests you are considering going down the "strip grazing" road. Have I understood this correctly, Loong?

It won't work.

I have a many years experiance with forage grass growing - there is going to be substantial surface damage from the animals hooves, which along with base grazing, are both going to result in considerable sections of the forage been uprooted (made worse by the frequent irrigation that will have to take place - you'll be having to irrigate at the very least twice per week for a good few hours, which is going to mean soft soil conditions -never mind the energy bill). I can't see it beenpossible to replace those uprooted sections and give them the time they need re-establish a root structure before the full land area has been grazed, and the cattle have to be recycled over previously grazed area.

As well, the fertiliser regime for forage grass from seed, versus regrowth from an established root system, are 2 different regimes which are seldom compatible. Remember, with most forage grass types in Thailand you have to cycle the cattle through the crop "on time" (which is quite rapid) to maintain the balance between volume/nutrient and regrowth (its complicated, but the base of the managment, is the need to prevent the grass from over growing and loosing its nutrient content).

You can try it if you wish - with a substantialy reduced heard size (say about 10 - 12 head), but with 20 head - it will quickly spiral into a frustrating situation.

Personally, its my opinion that this may just work with "cut 'n carry" if you reduce your heard size, but do not under estimate the amount of labour involved with a 20rai cut 'n carry model - it'll be a full time job!

I think you're cutting it too fine, but by all means, do your homework (read up and speak to as many Thai's as you can about "cut 'n carry" - go to the research station in Pak Chong - Thailands leading research centre for cut n carry research - and strip grazing), and give it a bash - if you can sustain it you're going to have all the so-called experts and a whole bunch of ag departments and feed/forage research units beating on your front door - you'll certainly have my full attention.

It will be a great project to pin to the forum and update as things progress.

All the best

[loong]

Not withstanding TeleTigers reply to your question about cost of fencing (agreed, won't cost much) - this suggests you are considering going down the "strip grazing" road. Have I understood this correctly, Loong?

No Maizefarmer, I'm not considering this at all. I just thought that the OP's idea of fencing off 20 rai into 3 to 5 rai sections could be expensive when considering the likely return after other expenses. I did consider a similar idea some years back, but decided that it wasn't a viable project, especially as I have no experience and no expert advisor.

QUOTE (BillyBobThai @ 2009-02-11 00:14:50

The in-laws have 20 rai that is being rented for growing rice once a year. My thought is to plant it with some sort of good grass and section off the field into 3 to 5 rai sections. With this I could put paw-in-laws, 20, local breed of cattle on it and change them to a new section every 4 to 5 days and turn a profit? He currently pays someone 100 baht head to move them around each day to feed. With a well fertilizered pasture, fenceded in, divided into smaller sections, how many cattle can I carry on 20 rai? What would be a good grass to grow in the Pichit area?

Other problems that I can foresee is that the land is likely top be flooded for part of the year as is Rice field. If not a full perimeter fence, other people are likely to be grazing their cattle on your carefully tended pasture unless you can keep an eye on it all the time.

[Isee]

This site should be of value at looking at what type of forage, the site loads a little slow but worthwhile to put up with.

http://www.tropicalforages.info/index.htm

[jopham]

If you are going to put them in a padock, how far is the padock for the house? Will they be secure or do you need someone to be there garding them during the the day and them to be retuned to the stables. There could be a lot of work involved just taking them to and from the padock every day.

This was needed for my brother in law.

My brother in law was keeping 25 cows and 10 calves. He had 65 rai and was still running out of forage in the dry season. It took him in the morning about half an hour to take them about 800 meters to his fields and the same in the evening. He needed to be there on the field because he was scared that somebody would steal them. He needed shelter for himself and needed water for the cows. During the day he would running up and down on his iron buffalo to get more water and to bring back the gras that he cut with a wipper snipper. He is not a lazy person but in the end after working very hard. He decided that it was much more cheaper and easier to to let a person walk with the cows all day long and for him to plant a crop on his fields. He sold them all about 4-5 years ago saying there was no money in cows.

Cheers Jopham

[slapout]

Mother cow with calf by side (beef cattle) will require 10 rai in the best of conditions, good grass which has plenty of rainfall, good soil, and fertilizer as needed. The cows will still require supplement of feed during winter, dry, Non growing season. This can be reduced (10 rai) by cross fence, rotation, and very close pasture care but probably only to 6+- rai. One good way of handling is to have several pastures (fenced), graze them in rotation with the last one being left for the non growing season, this gives them roughage to go with the supplement feed you give. This latter can take place under management when calves are weaned and cows are springing. We used to work on rotation by grass height, 3 to 6 inch height gives the best nutrition to cattle, with growth much over 6 inches you lose the value your after. Graze into the ground and recovery time is drastically increased. During the wet season the cattle must have a dry area they can get to (they will find it) or they will drop weight just tromping in the mud, plus they will tend to get sick as well as have foot problems. Anyone who thinks you can kick cattle out to graze, check them when you feel like it is in for a rude awakening. I have worked 100 up to 500 mother cows (beef) where we alloted 5 to as high as 50 acres/cow unit, depending on many factors. There is money to be made but I would not recommend it, except as a hobby in small numbers.

[teletiger]

Well...50 acres per cow unit is desert country. Arizona, New Mexico, Northern Territories. My personal experience in Thailand has been running 10 cow calf pairs on 30 rai -freerange, with enough left to supplement 40 (dry feed) bulls as a night time snack. In the winter the bulls snack was stopped and we had to supplement the cows. The only reason we supplemented the cows was to keep up their 1 calf per year (or less) regime. Our 30 rai pastures began as wanked out corn fields, that we fertilised with 15-15-15,( no soil analysis), sowed ruzzie and centro (Legume). In the following years we could have fertilised alot more (as to specifications) but found we didn't have to. By the third year the ruzzi was visibly slowing up, but the centro was still cracking on. Sold all the livestock last year and went over to corn. The ruzzi is still appearing and the bloody centro is trying to take over the garden. The term "fertile soil" is all relative. Add 15-15-15 and your soil is fertile.

Regards.

[slapout]

teletiger; The 50 acre/unit was beautiful Wyoming and it required 640 acres of alfalfa (irrigated), 3 cuttings to carry the cows thru winter. The 5 acre was Okla. and we used wheat pasture in winter with wheat hay supplement and protein cubes to maintain a calf/year. If you ran 10 cow calf pairs on 30 rai and could get a decent price for calves it might make some money in Thailand. I saw some imported bulls up in Fang area several years back, the locals would not use them as they thought they were too big for their cows. They were Lemo and weighted probably around 2 to 2200 lbs. The govt man looking after the bulls said AI was not a option?? The bulls probably ended up in stew pots over time. We do not have enough land to get into cattle and even if I did the wife makes pets out of livestock and refuses to butcher and eat the pets.

[BillyBobThai]

The rice field that I have refered to, will be raised 12 to 18 inches to help keep water problems down. I think, maybe the best thing to do, is let pa-in-law do his own thing and me just raise a couple for beef. Back in the states I put a beef in the freezer each year. They were Black Angus, that were grain fed for 90 days before slaughter. Is this breed available around here?

[loong]

Raise 20 Rai 12 to 18 inches?

Yes, I think let your Father in law do his own thing is best

[Maizefarmer]

The rice field that I have refered to, will be raised 12 to 18 inches to help keep water problems down. I think, maybe the best thing to do, is let pa-in-law do his own thing and me just raise a couple for beef. Back in the states I put a beef in the freezer each year. They were Black Angus, that were grain fed for 90 days before slaughter. Is this breed available around here?

Nope - BillyBobThai, they are not suited to the Thai climate.

Your best bet buddy is to get some local cattle - is there a local live animal market in Pichit? Otherwise, there is one of the biggest in the North/North east area in khon Khean - Wednesdays and saturdays if memroy serves me correct.

Its nice to have Angus and/or one or other of the big name prominent breeds we hear of in West, but truth of the matter is that as pure breds they are high maintanence and do not do well in this climate. That isn't to say they can't do well - they can - but the "inputs" feed, vet and maintenance wise mean they land up costing more to keep and maintain than you'll ever get back come slaughter time. And your big "input" with them i foresee been vet bills - they'll have poor resistance to local pests.

Fruity has a thread just below this - he was recently trying to sell some local bred animals - while the examples he has are expectional animals, its those type that are the best types to keep in semi-pro/small holding and hobby type farming - they are tough hardy animals, with excellent resistance to local pests and ruman systems well adapted to the tough local forages you'll end up with on paddy land. You'd have no prob's maintaing them on your ex-paddy land so long as the diet was well supplemented with clean water.

Stay away from prominent pure bred types - great animals they maybe, but none have been bred for Thailands conditions and inevatibly land up been more trouble than they are worth - with the one exception been the Texas Longhorn. There is a well established herd in Central Thailand (not far from Pak Chong - which is Thailand's prairy region and the best area in the country for cattle), but he doesn't sell them cheap - last time I heard he was asking Baht 60k - 80k per/head!!

[Isee]

Has anyone heard a new breed (as in for being present in Thailand) that is being crossed with the local Indu?? I seem to recall hearing a snippet of it but can't recall what the breed was...wasn't texas longhorn though. Maybe Aust Lowline? as I see someone has them in Thailand and posted some vid on youtube.

[Maizefarmer]

Nope - I haven't heard of them - seem to have rather short legs (was that deliberate breeding on there part).

Could be a good mix, could be a poor mix - best to go look at them and ask a 1001 questions.

There is no perfect cow for Thailand - a cow that is "good" on one farm may turn out to be useless on another farm: the animal is only part of the equation.

You can take most cattle types/mixes in Thailand and so long as you establish husbandry techniques which are well suited for it and the conditions in which it is kept, it will perform well. Wheather or not the required husbandry makes commercial sense is another story - and therein lies the skill: understanding the returns that are possible from various mixes and the husbandry models adopted to manage that particular type of mix. Get it right, and chances are it won't really matter what breed or mix you have, you'll do well.

When folk say this or that is a good breed or mix, what they usualy mean is that for that animal a good husbandry model has been established, which makes it possible for a farmer to manage the animal profitably for a given set of conditions - make sure the husbandry model is understood and that equivilant conditions can be offered.

[Isee]

Hi Maizefarmer,

I agree, lots of factors in cross breeding to take into account if you are trying to achieve an outcome - or just do it and see what happens Yes, the lowlines are short a*sed cows. To note some traits, these cows were breed to be smaller and consume less feed but yield a higher meat ratio. The breed is also known to have a good temperament for handling etc. I'm not sure how successful they will be in thailand where "big is better" as well as being "beautiful" overrides feed/yield ratios to the average thai farmer. As to what the positives are of mixing a lowline with an indu....not so sure - maybe just a fad to experiment. I would have thought a breed such as the lowline would be good in thailand as I've seen some BIG indu where they were struggling to control the animal (I knocked one back as they were asking silly money (whats new) but more importantly its temperament was poor imho). To be honest not even sure if the lowline was the breed I heard about. Yes, might be of interest to track down who has some of these and see what they have to say (not sure how objective they may be though). The breed to me makes sense if they can cope with the local feed offered by the average thai farmer, but what would be make or break is how they are received by the thai market.

[slapout]

Texas longhorn would not be my choice if I wanted to feed out a steer to butcher, age and eat. The longhorns were a cross of Spanish cattle and European cattle brought in in the early 1800's which bred with what the Spaniards left when they headed south along with the horse. At one time the longhorn was going the way of the buffalo and was nearly extent. many of what are called longhorn have been crossbred with horned cattle since the early 1900's to keep the horn span which takes about 4 to 5 years to attain. There are several cross breeds which would probably work in Thailand but where is the market for good quality beef. I would think its the latter that is keeping larger scale beef operators weary of Asia and much of the middle east. Some of the nicest grass country you will ever see can be found in Laos in some of the hill country, do not know what type, nutritional value, etc is but that would be a good place to start looking in my estimate. AI to a good quality brahama using crossbreed semen from Australia, South Africa or somewhere that have already got proven results in similar conditions may be a good starting point. Many packers/feed lots considered a good weight for butcher beef at about 1000 to 1200 lbs, we liked the 800 to 1000lbs which seemed better for personal use. We could get this weight with 60 + days of grain on a year old calf+-. Just my thoughts for what their worth.

[JungleBiker]

Has anyone heard a new breed (as in for being present in Thailand) that is being crossed with the local Indu?? I seem to recall hearing a snippet of it but can't recall what the breed was...wasn't texas longhorn though. Maybe Aust Lowline? as I see someone has them in Thailand and posted some vid on youtube.

University of Ubon Ratchathani is crossing Australian Black Angus Lowline with native cattle.

[JungleBiker]

Other problems that I can foresee is that the land is likely top be flooded for part of the year as is Rice field. If not a full perimeter fence, other people are likely to be grazing their cattle on your carefully tended pasture unless you can keep an eye on it all the time.

Best grass in this situation (seasonal flooding) would be Ubon Paspalum (Paspalum atratum).

[JungleBiker]

Brachiara Ruziziesis.

I read that it needs good fertile soil.

Any suggestions for a forage grass that needs less fertile soil ?

Has to be available in Thailand.

Also where do you buy seed for this type of thing, agricultural shop, Royal project ?

Well combining a legume as suggested above will help fertility (Ubon Stylo is another legume option).

But rather than Ruzi, I would suggest Mulato II (Brachiaria hybrid) for better nutritional quality and performance (but not for land which can flood). Seed available from University of Ubon Ratachathani (I have given links before - try the search).

[buffaloe]

i heard someone say something about buffalo.any chance anyone was talking about the american bison.would like some input about this topic.anyone ever try any american bison in thailand.please talk about this if you know if anyone has done so.thank you,buffaloe

[jandtaa]

forage pasture ( including lowland paddy field)for Thailand

don't know how useful this info is just part of my collection of pdf's on farming in los and not what I'm into at the moment