Legal Questions

[Bob Chittie]

Three questions. All hypothetical of course.

1. As an American in Thailand, what does it take to be extradited to the US? Is fraud that normally carries a 5 year maximum prison term enough?

2.Along the same lines, when one travels around the world, at entry points in the US and other countries, would such a crime flash up on the computer of the immigration/customs official or is it too small time to crowd their databases?

3. And would such a crime have any affect on one's ability to apply for and receive a Thai visa at consulates throughout the world?

I'm writing a movie script. Accuracy is best. Thanks.

[udon]

I'm writing a movie script. Accuracy is best. Thanks.

Yeah, right.

Maybe contact with the US Dept of Justice would be the 1st step.....!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'm writing a movie script. Accuracy is best. Thanks.

Yeah, right.

Maybe contact with the US Dept of Justice would be the 1st step.....!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got it from a man in a pub

or

A friend asked me to find out

[britmaveric]

Yes- you will be caught and extradited at entry points.

[Bob Chittie]

Yes- you will be caught and extradited at entry points. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So every crime committed around the world goes into one big database that all immigration officials have access to? It seems a little hard to believe. I know of people who have fled the US on marijuana smuggling charges who now travel the world, avoiding the US of course.

What is your opinion based on?

This is going to be one great movie.

[Bob Chittie]

I got it from a man in a pub

or

A friend asked me to find out

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My brother's friend's Unlce asked me to find out. He might be writing a movie too. I'm not sure.

[mbkudu]

Once they have little chips implanted in all of our asses, they will know exactly where the h### everyone is at every second of each day. GWB says ten years it will be this way for all Americans....hmmm. Guess you could scratch your retinas out to throw them off the scent .

[Richard Hall]

In any case the crime must be severe enough to justify an international arrest order and therefore actually considered a serious crime from a global point of view.

Therefore, that someone gets extradited because that person has cheated on taxes in his home country is very unlikely while drug dealing (even if it is "just" marijuna) may be considered differently paritcularly in some countries here in Asia where drug related offences are seen to be more severe than in their Western equivalents.

A few years ago there was a German guy wanted by Germany for fraud in the amount of millions of Euros. That person made an open and fabulous living in Pattaya without fearing the authorities. Eventually, however, he was extradited to Germany because.... you guess it, not because of the arrest order in Germany but rather cheating on taxes in Thailand.

Conclusion: As long as the hosting country has not own personal interest (for example an individual has not commited a crime that is major from the hosting country's point of view or there is interest for political reasons) a foreigner may have a nice living without needing to fear extradition. The situation may, however, take a full turn overnight, namely in the very moment that person commits an offence, even a petty one, in the hosting country.

Guess, this is plenty of advice to base a realistic script for a movie on.

Happy writing and filming.

Richard

Edited January 7, 2005 by Richard Hall

[Flummoxed]

I'm writing a movie script. Accuracy is best. Thanks.

Yeah, right.

Maybe contact with the US Dept of Justice would be the 1st step.....!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All time classics:-

* My friend has a strange growth on his penis, could you advise please.

* My friend wants to know where the go go bars are, huha, he just wants to go and look

* My friend wants to know if they'll chase him for his debts back home

* My friend got robbed by a prostitute

[Bob Chittie]

In any case the crime must be severe enough to justify an international arrest order and therefore actually considered a serious crime from a global point of view.

Therefore, that someone gets extradited because that person has cheated on taxes in his home country is very unlikely while drug dealing (even if it is "just" marijuna) may be considered differently paritcularly in some countries here in Asia where drug related offences are seen to be more severe than in their Western equivalents.

A few years ago there was a German guy wanted by Germany for fraud in the amount of millions of Euros. That person made an open and fabulous living in Pattaya without fearing the authorities. Eventually, however, he was extradited to Germany because.... you guess it, not because of the arrest order in Germany but rather cheating on taxes in Thailand.

Conclusion: As long as the hosting country has not own personal interest (for example an individual has not commited a crime that is major from the hosting country's point of view or there is interest for political reasons) a foreigner may have a nice living without needing to fear extradition. The situation may, however, take a full turn overnight, namely in the very moment that person commits an offence, even a petty one, in the hosting country. 

Guess, this is plenty of advice to base a realistic script for a movie on.

Happy writing and filming.

Richard 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Richard. In my movie script, the crime is not serious from a global standpoint, but still, considered fraud in the US with a maximum 5 years prison term. Did our German friend cross international borders without concern too?

[sua yai]

Ronnie Biggs is alive and kicking.

[sua yai]

Ronnie Biggs is alive and kicking.

[Gazza]

I can see the film's blurb now.

'A true movie based on the replies from Thai Visa Dot Com'

[Richard Hall]

Thanks Richard. In my movie script, the crime is not serious from a global standpoint, but still, considered fraud in the US with a maximum 5 years prison term. Did our German friend cross international borders without concern too?

As long as there is a valid passport and no international arrest order crossing the passport should be no problem. Certainly the home country has always the chance to declare a passport invalid and then certainly the holder is in kind of deep trouble.

On the other hand there is still something like human rights that means if a person is just suspected to have commited a crime but there was never a legal process I think revoking the passport can not be easily done from a legal point of view.

It will become, however, interesting at the moment when a passport expires and hence there is no other legal way to get it extended or replaced but going to an embassy of your home country which is considered soil of that country and for sure the appropriate information will be in their database. An arrest would most likely occur here or at least extending the passport could be denied. Now that suspect has the only options:

- Forge a passport

- Continue to stay in the hosting country but illegally (certainly not crossing any borders ever)

The famous "Biggs case" is a little different. Usually he was subject to extradition BUT he was father of a child with Brazilian nationality. Obviously, the Brazilian law does not allow extradition in this particular case. The welfare of a Brazilian citizen is considered to be above global interests at least from the standpoint of Brazil.

So it depends pretty much on the situation and also the laws of the hosting country. Well, now you are in a situation to add some spice to that story. Make that fraudster a father of twins in the hosting country. He might be a criminal but on the other hand a loving and caring father that other innocent people depend on. Being the person deciding about extradition is surely not desirable anymore.

The question is all of a sudden now: Hand the person that scammed let's say an institution of the US government for money over for punishment and rid some people of their basis of life or just decide the social aspect is of greater importance. In real life national interest usually beats international interest.

To come up with the most likely and logical conclusion one would need to get the full scoop of information and then also know all the loopholes in the laws of a country. Nevertheless, there are still other aspects that may change the outcome such as political issues between the country, money, connections etc. etc.

Life is a game sometimes with very unpredictable outcome. Therefore you can basically "sell" everything and make people believe it if it just comes in the right wrapping. Also the reason why some movies/directors/actors/scriptwriters get an oscar and others don't and why there are good and bad lawyers.

Good success and "may the force be with you".

Richard

[Richard Hall]

I can see the film's blurb now.

'A true movie based on the replies from Thai Visa Dot Com'

Yep, and all members are entitled to get 50% off the tickett price but only if they wear the official Thaivisa.com shirt. This is what is called true "marketing".

Here the synopsis in brief:

"Dr. Pat Pong will be a renegade that had scammed George out off a case of Chang Beer which is punishable with five years of prison without a drop of booze but eventually he finds shelter in Dave's bar in Pattaya where he fathers six beautiful children (luug krueng) with LC which prevents him to get kicked out of LOG (Land of the Grins, a fictitious county somewhere in Asia)."

A real true-to-life flick with chances for the big prize.

Edited January 7, 2005 by Richard Hall

[ProThaiExpat]

If your movie is set in the present day, you should consider what is being done by the U.S. to obtain cooperation and information sharing between countries regarding "undesireable" travellers. Thailand is joining the U.S database for travellers, U.S. is paying for the computers, so everything that is entered into the Thai entry and exit computers by immigration appears on the U.S. database.

I believe many countries are joining in and I would be surprised if there isn't something similar between the EU and the U.S.

While extradition is of legal interest, practicallity should be considered. All Thailand has to find out is that a visitor to Thailand has commited a crime in his home country and expulsion results. Any long staying expats are required to advise if they have been convicted of any crimes and are denied entry if they are crimininals.

Likewise, "information" from foreign governments is often followed up by Thai authorities and after investigation, deportation for newly discovered irregularities such as overstay, non registered visitors, etc. Any excuse to get rid of the expat who is reportedly a criminal in his home country. I doubt if the niceities of conviction are considered.

Since the regulation of foreign nationals is rearely subject to legal review in any country, I think the host countries are running rampant over the civil rights of expats and there is little legal redress.

An expose movie of what governments do to expats within their borders is a fertile field for outrage.

Edited January 7, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[Ted]

Great reading!

I actually had to tell the Ronnie Biggs story today to my Singaporean colleagues (before reading this link) when they asked why there were 'so many English on the run in Thailand'

What I could come up with (after assuring them it wasn't that many, and dare I say it theres probably one or two Singaporean bad eggs floating around there too) was

Sunny

Cheap,

Reasonable English spoken

Thai Culture comparitably accepting of foreigners

Easy to get around

Still (becoming decreaingly so) loosly controlled

Beautiful women

Did I miss any?

[Pie Boy]

Hey Chittie, Why don't you head off to Koa San Rd and drag some of the scruffy backpackers to play extras ?

What about writing a novel about an ageing European guy who falls in love with a beautiful thai lady and spends the rest of years living in a small village in Isaan, getting pissed everyday complaining about how hot it is whilst wondering what all the locals are talking about.

To break his torture he heads of to the big smoke (korat) once a month to cool down in the air conditioned shopping malls?

Or is this too unrealistic?

Perhaps we should have a new topic "great movies to make in thailand".

Oh dear me.