Can I Just Take My Son From Thailand As The Mother Cannot Take Care Of Him ?

[Centurion]

Hi I'm new here and I'm not sure if this the right place but here goes.

I've a problem with the lady who is the mother of my son. She is Thai, I am from Scotland.

Our relationship has broken up and she wants to take our baby away. She used to work in a bar and she admits that the only way she can get money is to go and be a prostitute. Or should I say that her desire for easy money means that she says she will do that. Our son would then be dumped with anyone.

She cannot take care of herself really and certainly cannot take care of our son. She is constantly drinking, staying out all night and doesn't care about anything. Any money is used for entertainment and any money left lying around is stolen. She even stole from our son's piggy bank.

She is using our son not as a bargaining tool for money but as blackmail for me to keep giving her money.

I want my son to come and live with me. I can change my work so that I am in Scotland all the time to give him a stable environment. I cannot work from Thailand. She is totally opposed to this and has threatened to just make my son disappear and quite honestly, I believe her.

I have been to two lawyers. One just wanted cash for sure and the other talked about a long winded legal action which could take years and was equally likely to fail. His reasoning is that whatever the reality, there would be an unlimited number of paid witnesses to say how good she was as a mother, how the family takes care of her financially (they cannot but ...) and how bad I am etc. I believe this after seeing how the Thais react and how they lie.

If we cannot come to some arrangement, I want to take our son from Thailand. He has Thai and UK passports. He is 3 years old and has never left Thailand before.

Can I ask what is there to stop me just getting on a plane and taking him to my house in Scotland ? Obviously there are no visa issues in the UK but what about exiting through immigration in Thailand ? Would a land border be any different to the airport ?

If on an indirect flight, say via the middle east or Hong Kong, Malaysia or Singapore, what would happen if we were at the changeover airport and the mother had somehow informed the Thai authorities that I had "kidnapped" the child ? Would they send us back to Thailand ? Are different countries different in this respect. I ask this as there are no direct flights.

I am more than willing for the mother to have near unlimited visitation rights but I want our son to be safe. Having him grow up as the son of a working and absentee prostitute, dumped on anyone needy enough of a few baht to take care of him, never receiving the things which money was provided or because his mother and her friends have spent it on entertainment is not good enough for me. Certainly it is not good enough for my son.

I believe that what I may have to contemplate is not illegal as I am the father but I certainly do not want problems at exit immigration. Are there potential problems ? If so, how are they overcome ?

I will continue to talk with her when she is sober enough to understand and still retain legal advice but before I tip my hand and issue proceedings which will certainly have her issuing threats and potentially kidnapping the child from me and denying me access, I would like some help on an alternative method of securing the safety of my son.

I have looked on the internet and was referred to this website from another forum as a good place to ask for help and receive information. I thank you in advance for any assistance.

[adjan jb]

Last year I took my 6 YO son out of Thailand (with the mother's consent). No questions asked at Suvarnabhumi Airport.

[Pushit]

Sad story, I would take the train to Malaysia and go from there.

[Arkady]

There are a lot of half farang children growing up in Isaan villages with their grandparents. They are loved as small children because of their cute luk krueng looks and can become a sort of mascot for the village. Life is probably tougher for them when they get older as there is an expectation in today's Thailand that farang luk kreung have been to international schools and are hi-so like so many of the models and pop singers. The village luk kreung speak Thai with heavy Isaan accents like their mothers and can't speak English at all.

I don't know much about the legal situation but doing it the other way round from the UK or US would I think be a serious criminal offence. I would suspect that, if she complained, you would be unable to visit Thailand again during a lengthy statute of limitations or risk being arrested at the airport. I doubt if the Thai government would bother to try to extradite you, or even if this is possible. But I suspect immigration requires a consent form from the other parent, if you are taking the child out of the country, as a foreign father and the child is travelling on a Thai passport which he will be difficult to avoid. She might also complain, if you snatch the child and Immigration might be alerted before you can get out. I don't know the answer to your question about getting the child sent back from neighbouring countries but suspect that the Thai authorities would not act very fast in dealing with other countries in a case like this that would involve going through the foreign ministries of both countries.

If it were me I would not want to take the risk of getting arrested at the border. The lawyer is probably correct in saying that a court case to get custody from a Thai court to take a Thai child overseas away from his Thai mother would be lengthy and would probably fail if she resisted it. My gut feeling is that your best bet might be to try to do a deal with the mother to sign a consent form to allow you to take the boy out of the country on a visit. Agree a certain amount of cash and arrange for it to be handed over at a lawyer's office on signature and take the boy to the airport as soon as possible after that. This would probably also mean that you can't come back to Thailand, as she could complain you took the boy on holiday and failed to bring him back. For a larger sum maybe you can get her to sign over custody altogether or even get the lawyer to trick her into signing a waiver of custody agreement which she thinks is a consent for a temporary visit abroad. A Thai family lawyer who did some prenuptial agreements for farangs marrying bar girls said the girls were incapable of understanding legal Thai and just glazed over when she tried to explain the agreements to them, as they just wanted to sign and get married.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Arkady

[Centurion]

Thanks for the comments. I expected some negatives but let it ride.

I think most so far have grasped the situation. Thank you for taking the time to read it and for replying.

If I thought it best for my son to remain in Thailand within a stable enlarged family group then I would put his interests first (as I always do) and just visit as often as possible. Unfortunately, that is not possible. The extended family are poor and whilst there is nothing wrong with that at all, they are also lazy, lack the knowledge to observe basic hygiene etc.

Any money they receive sees them waste it immediately. No new clothes are bought, no repairs made to the houses, no advancement of any kind. It all goes on nothing I can see except partying, paying back money borrowed (only to be borrowed again) and used to get themselves into more debt. Work or business is the last thing on their mind. Kids run around without nappies, fouling whenever and wherever. Shoes are hardly worn yet the dirt paths are riddled with broken glass, cigarette buts and all kinds of things. No children have been to a dentist or have a full set of inoculations. It is no place I bet any one of you would leave their child, even for one night. Yet that is where my son would most likey be dumped.

Please make any suggestions. I will not be offended, I am grateful for the comments.

[adjan jb]

Please make any suggestions. I will not be offended, I am grateful for the comments.

If I were you, I would take my son, his two passports and run to the nearest international airport.

Edited March 9, 2009 by adjan jb

[twschw]

Just how long have you allowed him to live in these conditions?

[Centurion]

Not dumb at all. The immigration officer didn't know I was taking my son out of the country with the mother's consent (I just mentioned that for your information) since she didn't asked me a single question. I could have been kidnapping my own son.

That said the OP has already mentioned that his son has a UK passport, so there's no need for a visa. Have you read his whole post, Enlighten one?

Thanks for your reply.

So did you go out on the Thai passport and no questions asked ? Was it the first time the child left Thailand ? Just what information did you have with you had you been questioned ? Did you have a return ticket ?

[think_too_mut]

I (Oz passport) travelled with my daughter (Thai passport) 3 times to Singapore and Hong Kong, the mother was present but there were no links in passport names (unmarried), the mother could have been anyone. No questions asked although it may have been obvious we were 1 family.

Just noticed your last post - yes, we had return tickets but nobody asked us to show anything. And the first travel was the first one ih daughter's life.

If I were to smuggle her out, I would use Thai passport to leave Thailand and UK passport from then on.

The mother can not divert the plane, after boarding, it is all finished.

The question is - if the mother would know or be bothered to engage a lawyer, what would your country say? As you describe the situation, she would not know what to do other than "think too mutt" and get dead drunk 2-3 times.

Check this thread in the Family & Children section.

Altough I did not like the tone of the naration at times, it probably shows what one of the lawyers told you - a long legal battle.

Edited March 9, 2009 by think_too_mut

[adjan jb]

Thanks for your reply.

So did you go out on the Thai passport and no questions asked ? Was it the first time the child left Thailand ? Just what information did you have with you had you been questioned ? Did you have a return ticket ?

My son went out on a (brand new) Thai Passport. I had his French passport in my hand but they didn't want to see it. We didn't have return tickets. We didn't know how long we were going to stay.

I had a letter from the mother along with a photocopy of her ID but I didn't have to show it.

He already went to France when he was 18 months (but on the way to France the three of us were traveling together). He returned to Thailand with his mother 2 months after me (I had to go back before them for professional reasons). At Paris CDG, his mother showed her Thai passport and his French passport (They don't have the same family name). No questions asked either.

Edited March 9, 2009 by sbk

[adjan jb]

The mother can not divert the plane, after boarding, it is all finished.

Centurion, I wish you and your son the best of luck and bon voyage.

[Pakeha]

If you have different surnames it's difficult. We always get questioned about my daughter because she has a different surname. She's on a Thai passport at the moment though.

Best of luck getting your boy! Sounds like you're doing the right thing. I.e Putting his interests first.

[BWFC]

I think if your surnames are the same then there wont be an issue, I travel with my daughter who is on a thai Passport but has my surname and I never get asked a single question.

Do a runner with your kid for his sake!

[CharlieB]

My wife and I took our daughter out of Thailand on a UK passport (She doesn't have a Thai one yet) and they made a bit of a fuss at the airport due to her not having an incoming immigration stamp on it. We tried to explain to them that she had been born in the country and after a while they accepted this, but insisted on putting incoming and outgoing stamps in her passport! Bizarre, but looks like you would be better using the Thai passport, if your son has your surname. You could always fake a letter from your Mrs and get a friendly Thai to type it and sign it. I'd only use it if it were a last resort though. Best to go and act naturally, like you're just going home for a visit.

[huski]

If anything Immigration will ask for your son's birth certificate, bring the original with you. They may ask where is your wife, but that is about it. One parent and child travel alone in and out of Thailand, not unusual.

[think_too_mut]

My wife and I took our daughter out of Thailand on a UK passport (She doesn't have a Thai one yet) and they made a bit of a fuss at the airport due to her not having an incoming immigration stamp on it. We tried to explain to them that she had been born in the country and after a while they accepted this, but insisted on putting incoming and outgoing stamps in her passport! Bizarre, but looks like you would be better using the Thai passport, if your son has your surname. You could always fake a letter from your Mrs and get a friendly Thai to type it and sign it. I'd only use it if it were a last resort though. Best to go and act naturally, like you're just going home for a visit.

Yes, using her Thai passport outbound is the way to go.

A foreign passport without any stamps, especially if the mother is not present, may lead to deniying you boarding and possibly some nasty stamp in your own passport and son's UK passport.

(My daughter has my name, it's in her Thai and Oz passport).

[spacefruit]

While in conversation with an international lawyer on a removed subject, he announced

"If you have a Thai passport as well as another, you MUST use the Thai passport in and out of Thailand..."

As it does not affect me I have not double checked.

And yes....GET HIM OUT!!!

[Centurion]

Just how long have you allowed him to live in these conditions?

My son does not live in these conditions. I would never allow that. I provide a house with western and Thai facilities, a new car, ample funding and a very well supported lifestyle.

[Centurion]

My son and I have the same surname. He has a western first name. His birth certificate shows the Thai translation of these names.

I have he passports and yes, use the Thai one to leave and the UK one into the UK.

I just want to thin ahead and overcome any potential hurdles by either having the correct paperwork, if possible, or circumventing the requirements somehow.

As the biological father, I cannot kidnap my own son. His mother threatens to have him removed to a place in Thailand where I would have no access, bleed money from me without me knowing if one satang is being used for his benefit and offers the threat of Thai people using violence should I track them down.

I love Thailand but not many of the people and I know that if I remove my son I cannot eve come back but that is the least of my worries.

PLease keep comments and suggestions coming, they are much appreciated.

[CrossBones]

Get him out over the weekend.

Nothing gets put on immigation computers between 6:00PM Friday and Monday Morning. Even if she files a complaint it wouldnt be until Monday morning they would see it and then it would be too late.

Do a runner, over a land border - on a Saturday morning.

If its too late, you could always wait until you see a sign at the land border that says "sorry for the delay our computers are not working" as you frequently see - and then you can leave the country mai pen raii.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Mario2008
Flame deleted and poster here by warned

[adjan jb]

Do a runner, over a land border - on a Saturday morning.

Land border? It will look sneaky (is that the right word?). Based on my experience (and other posters' experiences), an international airport seems better.

[Mario2008]

If you have shared costudy over the child, Thai law doesn't have parental abduction laws and you just could take your son with you. That will be different if the mother has sole costudy, then it would be kidnapping.

Thai judges will always have the best interest of the child in mind and are not biased towards foreigners. If you want to fight for costudy you might find that you have a stronmg case. I recommend that you start a dairy about all what happens, especialy regarding your child and the mother. It comes down on the evidence you and she gather.

[Centurion]

Get him out over the weekend.

Nothing gets put on immigation computers between 6:00PM Friday and Monday Morning. Even if she files a complaint it wouldnt be until Monday morning they would see it and then it would be too late.

Do a runner, over a land border - on a Saturday morning.

If its too late, you could always wait until you see a sign at the land border that says "sorry for the delay our computers are not working" as you frequently see - and then you can leave the country mai pen raii.

I'm sorry but could you substantiate your comments about computers not being updated between those days and times ? I'll hazard a guess that you cannot and I would also bet that the system is live and does not just back up overnight.

However, taking some of your post regarding time then I believe this would be the issue.

At some point the mother becomes suspicious. Of course, one would not make it obvious like taking the only pack of nappies or all the bottles etc. Substitutes would have to be bought and an acceptable amount of things taken, leaving the impression that nothing had hanged and the baby was just out with his father as per whatever the original ruse was. Making the mother absent such as when she goes for a night out sponsored by yours truly is better of course.

However, assuming that something raises her suspicions, what course of action would she take ?

I assume first that she would speak to the neighbours. Obviously you don't want them saying they saw me loading half the house into the car. If they knew nothing or little, then she would just wait, presuming she could not contact me on the phone. At what point she would even think about contacting the authorities, which I presume would be the police, I do not know.

Were the police informed, then what action could they take ? I am sure that if I said I feared abduction in the UK, all land, sea and air borders would be notified and a centralised computer would flag my name should I attempt to exit. How easy that is done in Thailand I do not know.

As for crossing a land border, then I think not. The only semi normal country is Malaysia and that means flying to South Thailand, then trekking over a border, all of which takes a lot of time, something I am keen to keep to a minimum.

If you have shared costudy over the child, Thai law doesn't have parental abduction laws and you just could take your son with you. That will be different if the mother has sole costudy, then it would be kidnapping.

Thai judges will always have the best interest of the child in mind and are not biased towards foreigners. If you want to fight for costudy you might find that you have a stronmg case. I recommend that you start a dairy about all what happens, especialy regarding your child and the mother. It comes down on the evidence you and she gather.

We were never married. Both our names are on the birth certificate. Our son has Thai and UK passports which I have. I assume we have joint custody as the natural parents. Thus, I see no reason why there would be an issue just exiting through immigration save for he instance where the mother has alerted the authorities.

I have already made an e-file going back over a year. However, nothing or perhaps little could be substantiated and were I defending, then I would "produce" such a diary for my client, which would be contested and attempt to nullify the other, real diary. The Thai, in this case his mother, could also produce endless witnesses, all bought and paid for. The baby is too young to have an opinion. If it dragged on for years, then he could be coached in siding with the mother's position.

Thanks again for the updated responses.

[7by7]

As your son has a both British and a Thai passport then you will probably have no problems removing him from Thailand and bringing him to the UK.

However, that may be the least of your problems if his mother decides to take action to get him back; such as reporting his 'abduction' to the police.

This is a very complicated legal area and you must seek professional legal advice before taking any action.

(Edited to remove question already answered by OP.)

Edited March 9, 2009 by 7by7

[torrenova]

If I read the OP right, all he is worried about is whether immigration would stop him at the airport. Then he is concerned about what might happen if he went back to the UK via a non direct route; would Singapore for instance do anything ?

Any worries after he gets his child to the UK are meaningless. He will be in the UK as he recognised father of a child with a UK passport. I doubt the child's mother would ever get a visa if he set his mind to it. Her specific comments about her returning to the oldest profession should be enough to have any visa request denied.

I suspect useless Thai lawyers and no need for any UK lawyers once in the UK is all the legal knowledge he needs. What he does need is to get past immigration with his baby and into the air on the plane. After that, goodbye Thailand, likely forever.

[7by7]

So what do you suggest he does if the police come knocking on his door because the child's mother has reported to the Thai police that he has abducted her son?

Child abduction by an absent parent and taking said chils across international borders is treated very seriously by the British authorities.

[mogoso]

Get him out over the weekend.However, taking some of your post regarding time then I believe this would be the issue.

I assume first that she would speak to the neighbours. Obviously you don't want them saying they saw me loading half the house into the car. If they knew nothing or little, then she would just wait, presuming she could not contact me on the phone. At what point she would even think about contacting the authorities, which I presume would be the police, I do not know.

What do you want to take outta the country your stuff or your son. I know a Scotsman has a reputation for being a wee bit tight with his funds, but in a situation where you want to not stand out, take the minimum amount of things for you and your son. You can buy more stuff when you get home. Easier to travel with a youngun when you travel light.

[Brigante7]

Please make any suggestions. I will not be offended, I am grateful for the comments.

If I were you, I would take my son, his two passports and run to the nearest international airport.

Agreed, get the first flight out you can. Give your son's mum enough money to go on a 3 day bender, that'll give you time to get away.

Hope everythinmg works out for you mate.

Brigante7

[Petesear]

I have flown in and out of Thailand with my daughter and have only been asked once, at Heathrow, where her Mother is....

I'd say go for it.... Good luck

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The very best of luck Centurion.