Learning Difficulties

[xkkpafi]

I do not think its the tone rules, grammar, sentence constructions or any other language constraint that makes learning of Thia difficult. Its the attitude of the Thais towards farangs who wish to learn that is the problem. Many employ outright rudeness and humiliation techniques to making any progress in learning the language as difficult and as unpleasant as possible. Thais simply hate falangs learning 'their' language. They have several well worn techniques available, denial and humiliation being one of the most popular. The goons in Tesco Lotus are particularly adept at this. Rather than having the digital checkout display thrust in my face when its time to pay I prefer to try a smile, followed by a polite สะหฺวัดดีคฺรับ and เท่าไรคฺรับ. (I cant read the display anyway without my glasses). If Im lucky I get a reply like "sebenhundatahtafor" or some other incoherent rambling that is presumably based on English. The Kasikorn bank is another haunt where falangs are prohibited from speaking Thai. I once conducted an entire transaction with one of their goons with me speaking Thai and the goon returning kind of burbling noises more reminiscent of an 18 month old baby which, once again, was presumably based on English.

To me this is the greatest obstacle in making progress as it is disheartening and morale sapping and makes one really wonder if its worth the effort.

[wasabi]

I think you will get a wide variety of responses to this post. I do understand your frustration having encountered fierce opposition myself. I sincerely don't think it's fair to say 'All Thai's' don't want us learning their language though it is a sizable percentage. I have found the better I get at Thai the less opposition I face, so I have to think some of it is just annoyance at dealing with Farang's butchering the language, not that they want to retain the language all for themselves, though like I said even if you spoke as good as a native speaker you will encounter some nationalistic opposition, but you'll find some who you thought were in that camp actually didn't understand you. I intentionally go to many areas where no English is spoken and in these areas the Thai's I encounter do appreciate my speaking Thai. If I find a Thai person wants to speak English with me I oblige them and don't force Thai on them. I do prefer speaking Thai to practice it but I am battling against their own pride and desire to practice English.

There are enough Thai people who only speak Thai that this isn't a big issue for me. Had I not spoken Thai I would have not met my wife so it certainly has been worth it but there were times where I felt really annoyed at the opposition and nearly quit. You've got to decide for yourself is it worth it or not.

[xkkpafi]

Wasabi. Thanks for a good reply that helps me get some perspective about the problem. I'm glad I was not the only one that has encountered stiff opposition in learning Thai. You are right in your comments about falangs butchering the language and I can understand how some Thais would not like this. Unfortunately most of these Thais are also butchering English! You are very fortunate to have areas "where no English is spoken" and I can appreciate how your efforts are probably rewarded by the Thais in these places. I long to find such areas myself but unfortunately Hua Hin and its surrounds are a cultural and linguistic wasteland and offer no such places or opportunities. I'm fairly limited to finding shops, banks and other meeting places where falangs are not prohibited from speaking Thai, but its very hard work assembling such a list. โชก-ดี!

[CSS]

Wasabi. Thanks for a good reply that helps me get some perspective about the problem. I'm glad I was not the only one that has encountered stiff opposition in learning Thai. You are right in your comments about falangs butchering the language and I can understand how some Thais would not like this. Unfortunately most of these Thais are also butchering English! You are very fortunate to have areas "where no English is spoken" and I can appreciate how your efforts are probably rewarded by the Thais in these places. I long to find such areas myself but unfortunately Hua Hin and its surrounds are a cultural and linguistic wasteland and offer no such places or opportunities. I'm fairly limited to finding shops, banks and other meeting places where falangs are not prohibited from speaking Thai, but its very hard work assembling such a list. โชก-ดี!

This hasn't been my experience but maybe I could add a couple suggestions to facilitate more opportunities to practice Thai and avoid negative encounters. Like Wasabi, if the man or woman I am speaking to continues in English after it's known I speak Thai then I continue in English until the conversation hits an insurmountable wall, at which point I switch back to Thai. Also as Wasabi noted there may be multiple reasons why the man or woman you are speaking to wants to speak English. The situation I just mentioned is probably one where the person I'm speaking to simply wants to practice their English. It may also be that they are trying to be considerate towards me by speaking my language, or showing that they have an interest in me by showing that they have attempted to learn my language. Less generously they may want to show off (to me or their friends nearby) by speaking English to a foreigner.

I think the majority of the time it comes from the primary function of the interaction at a bank or grocery store is the interaction itself, and not language learning or acquisition. It may not even cross the mind of the people you meet at the bank or grocery store that you are practicing your Thai with them or trying to learn more Thai. They are just thinking about the transaction at hand and may believe (possibly mistakenly) that the transaction will be facilitated more smoothly if they speak English, thus they speak English to facilitate the transaction. When I'm in a situation where I know that the person I'm speaking to does the same thing (sell a soda, take a food order or so forth) and often does it with foreigners and in English then I assume they can perform that basic transaction in English just fine so I'll play along and conduct the conversation in English. I may even start in English only letting on that I know Thai when the conversation strays from the ordinary and begins to break down in English. This does, of course, often require more work from me than the conversation would require had we spoke Thai because I do have to concentrate to understand each word they say but I'm happy to be part of their language learning process. If a word is said particularly poorly or the wrong word is used I won't correct them directly but I will fabricate a sentence in my reply that uses the mispoke word or incorrect phrase said correctly so that they can hear it correctly without breaking the conversation or calling them out on the mistake. If they are interested in learning (many are some aren't) then they'll catch on and for those that aren't interested, correcting them directly wouldn't have helped anyway, only made the conversation choppy and possibly turned it negative. I digress. In most of these situations and particularly those where the other person is focused on the transaction and not the linguistic exchange or where they are trying to practice English themselves it may help to simply state at the beginning of the conversation/transaction that your Thai isn't very good/or in need of improvement (regardless of the level it's good to start self-deprecatingly), that you would like to practice and if they wouldn't helping you and speaking Thai. I feel this directness of purpose would help improve the majority of the negative experiences you have experienced. Then again it may not.

There are many other possible reasons why those you speak to do not want to hold the conversation in Thai, one of which very well may be, as you said, that they don't want you to learn Thai, though I personally have never run across that particular experience. However, I rarely spent time in Hua Hin or anywhere further South and each region is very different. Nor did I spend much time in any heavily touristed location.

Sorry for the length. I hope it's helpful.

All the Best

[phaethon]

I can't say that there is any malice in it, but I do get frustrated when I try out my best Thai and, at the first hint of a hesitation or error, they instantly switch to English. I know they are trying to be helpful and perhaps sometimes, but not always, impatient, but I just have to remember that not everyone wants to be my personal language teacher.

A recent annoyance is that recorded message in 'English' that the girls at the change counter on the BTS play when they give you your change/card back. They don't even look at you and smile any more , just hit the button and 'next'. It doesn't help that the message ends with 'Have a nice day!' - the anthem of corporate insincerity and dismissal

(Note to self - look up the Thai word for 'rude')

Edited March 10, 2009 by phaethon

[mynextgig]

I do not think its the tone rules, grammar, sentence constructions or any other language constraint that makes learning of Thia difficult. Its the attitude of the Thais towards farangs who wish to learn that is the problem. Many employ outright rudeness and humiliation techniques to making any progress in learning the language as difficult and as unpleasant as possible. Thais simply hate falangs learning 'their' language. They have several well worn techniques available, denial and humiliation being one of the most popular. The goons in Tesco Lotus are particularly adept at this. Rather than having the digital checkout display thrust in my face when its time to pay I prefer to try a smile, followed by a polite สะหฺวัดดีคฺรับ and เท่าไรคฺรับ. (I cant read the display anyway without my glasses). If Im lucky I get a reply like "sebenhundatahtafor" or some other incoherent rambling that is presumably based on English. The Kasikorn bank is another haunt where falangs are prohibited from speaking Thai. I once conducted an entire transaction with one of their goons with me speaking Thai and the goon returning kind of burbling noises more reminiscent of an 18 month old baby which, once again, was presumably based on English.

To me this is the greatest obstacle in making progress as it is disheartening and morale sapping and makes one really wonder if its worth the effort.

Not sure of the OP's native language, but as a native english speaker we grow up listening to the huge variety of accents and dialects that the english language throws up and so its second nature for us to understand instantly what is being said, even if its the most appalling sentance construction and pronounciation. When spoken in Central dialect, Thai has very few differences in the way its spoken other than the formal and informal and therefore Thai's are only really used to hearing it spoken in a particular way.

I found that the better my prounounciation became the less inclined Thai's were to switch to english and so its definately worth spending time learning to sound Thai because if those 1st couple of sentances are correct then the Thai person you are speaking to will be much more confident in continuing the conversation in Thai, i think often its more a case of trying to avoid an embarrasing situation than just being rude.

That said, i have also been laughed at and ridiculed for very minor mistakes from the Thai people that i know well and who have no qualms about embarrasing me. You do need a thick skin to learn this language, but it is definately worth the effort and when you are able to confidentally hold a conversation in Thai with a Thai that wasnt expecting a farang to have mastered the language beyond a couple of words its pretty gratifying.

Dont give up !

[Felixer]

Keep at it MNG! I've been studying Thai for the past 6 months in Bangkok, and I now find that most Thais that I converse with, including strangers & "kon-kaai" actually like hearing a farang making an effort to learn the local language. I do come across a few locals who look at me as if I had spoken some foreign language to them, but that's probably because of my poor pronunciation with certain words (remember that most farangs have some type of accent). But the best way I have found to learn is to practice speaking Thai with Thais every day... because they usually will help you with corrections when needed... much cheaper than attending a Thai language school every day!

[eek]

I havent had quite the same experiences, but i remember one day I was determined to speak only Thai outside of my home. I played a trick on the people who responded to me in English. I told them in Thai that I dont understand English well and that I speak more Thai than English. Was really funny seeing their reactions. Of course, when they ask you what country you are from/language you speak, make sure you mention and obscure one, such as Estonia. Unless, of course, you are fluent enough in another common language.

[fresnoboy]

Keep at it MNG! I've been studying Thai for the past 6 months in Bangkok, and I now find that most Thais that I converse with, including strangers & "kon-kaai" actually like hearing a farang making an effort to learn the local language. I do come across a few locals who look at me as if I had spoken some foreign language to them, but that's probably because of my poor pronunciation with certain words (remember that most farangs have some type of accent). But the best way I have found to learn is to practice speaking Thai with Thais every day... because they usually will help you with corrections when needed... much cheaper than attending a Thai language school every day!

I'm sorry but, my wife doesn't know what "kon-kaai" means and so, I am at a loss to decipher your message.

[DavidHouston]

Keep at it MNG! I've been studying Thai for the past 6 months in Bangkok, and I now find that most Thais that I converse with, including strangers & "kon-kaai" actually like hearing a farang making an effort to learn the local language. I do come across a few locals who look at me as if I had spoken some foreign language to them, but that's probably because of my poor pronunciation with certain words (remember that most farangs have some type of accent). But the best way I have found to learn is to practice speaking Thai with Thais every day... because they usually will help you with corrections when needed... much cheaper than attending a Thai language school every day!

I'm sorry but, my wife doesn't know what "kon-kaai" means and so, I am at a loss to decipher your message.

I suspect he means "คนขาย","แม่ค้า" or "พ่อค้า", or "คนขายของ"

[Rionoir]

Wow I've never had this problem, but then again if I'm somewhere that they can speak English I will just let them speak English to me. I assume at a bank they really don't want to take any chances that you make a mistake with your Thai and perform the wrong transaction or something... just a thought. I don't think that's a good place to "try out" your Thai. heh

And I also understand Thais switching to English when my Thai starts to get a little crummy... because I do the same to my friends when their English gets bad. LoL Some of my friends our language levels are about on par with each other, and it's easiest for us to communicate by switching back and forth as necessary since neither of us has perfect command of the other language... (yet!)

Anyway my experience is probably exactly the opposite of yours... maybe you should take some long taxi rides. I swear if you say anything at all to those taxi drivers in Thai they will assume you are fluent and talk your ear off the entire trip!

[kriswillems]

Since day one I arrived in Thailand I speak Thai when ordering food in a fast food restaurant. The first 4 months people always replied English to me, even though I spoke Thai. After about 4 month Thai people began to reply in Thai.

I assume that the whole Thai population didn't change in 4 months, so that probably means my pronunciation was not good enough.

Now only very few people reply in English. I think these people are proud they can speak English and they want to show that, just like I want to show that I can speak Thai. I think it's more like a positive attitude than a negative attitude. We want to speak the language of our guest to make him feel comfortable.

[Felixer]

correct KW... i meant คนขาย ... or commonly known as "mee-kaa" (female seller) or "pho-kaa" (male seller)... a great way to practice your thai language, especially when counting if you are bargaining... makes you think extra hard when you're negotiating with your hard-earnt baht!

[TaoNow]

Hi. I would like to add one more perspective to the "language dual" some of us go through. There could be an element of status sensitivity involved when Thais persist in speaking English (even though your Thai may be superior to their English). They may have been recruited to their position (in the bank, supermarket, etc.) because of a tested ability to converse in English up to a certain level. Thus, to have to revert to Thai may feel demeaning to some in that you are "demoting" them to a lower status in the business. In other words, if all foreigners spoke Thai well, then persons with fewer qualifications could take his/her job.

I like the suggestion by CSS to proceed with them in English until you reach an impass, then try it in Thai.

Also, I would like to echo some of the other posters that this issue really only occurs in cities where there are a large number of foreign tourists. I have traveled extensively throughout the country and in virtually all locations (outside the tourist zones) Thai is most welcome.

[tgeezer]

I remember when people would call out 'you you' and how rude I thought them, it was not their fault they had learnt that คุณ was 'you' in English. In the same way we are taught that สวัสดี is hello in Thai and say it where in English we would say hello, often wrong. So everyone should give a little, there is more to it than words.

[loong]

Tgeezer

I'm trying to think of a situation that we would use Hello in English where สวัสดี is wrong. I can't think of any. Can you please give an example?

Now สบายดีไหม is generally translated as "How are you?" As far as I'm concerned it doesn't mean this, it means "Are you well/comfortable/ok"

Sometimes when I've spoken English to a Thai "How are you?", they've translated it to Thai as สบายดีไหม and then answered "Yes"

[tgeezer]

Tgeezer

I'm trying to think of a situation that we would use Hello in English where สวัสดี is wrong. I can't think of any. Can you please give an example?

Precisely, it does not mean 'hello'.

I would say if you don't know them and are not going to ask after their health then you don't speak. Here is a quote from a schoolbook;

การทักทายปราศรัย เป้นคุณสมบัติติดตัวของคนไทย คือ มักใชัอวัจนภาษาได้แก่ การยิ้ม และการไหว้ประกอบ การกล่าวมักใช้คำว่า สวัสดี เป็นการเริมต้น

It is a greeting to someone you know and as you see สวัสดี comes after the body language: smile, wai.

Of course as non natives we can do what ever we want but it is a bit disconcerting for Thais that are not familiar with our ways.

It was the mention of the cash-out in the first post which struck me as a bit odd, maybe the big Inter'stores should train their staff because we do feel at home there and tend to do what comes naturally.

I think there is an expression coined to cover the 'good morning' problem from the days when Thailand was trying to progress and everything from the developed countries had to be copied, something like สวัสดีอรุณ

I think สบายดีไหม means 'how do you do' I am reasonably sure that the answer is 'well thanks' same as English. It is not a question, only a greeting.

[DavidHouston]

Tgeezer

I'm trying to think of a situation that we would use Hello in English where สวัสดี is wrong. I can't think of any. Can you please give an example?

Now สบายดีไหม is generally translated as "How are you?" As far as I'm concerned it doesn't mean this, it means "Are you well/comfortable/ok"

Sometimes when I've spoken English to a Thai "How are you?", they've translated it to Thai as สบายดีไหม and then answered "Yes"

In the Lao language isn't "สบายดี" the equivalent of the Thai "สวัสดี"?

[loong]

Tgeezer

I'm trying to think of a situation that we would use Hello in English where สวัสดี is wrong. I can't think of any. Can you please give an example?

Precisely, it does not mean 'hello'.

I would say if you don't know them and are not going to ask after their health then you don't speak. Here is a quote from a schoolbook;

การทักทายปราศรัย เป้นคุณสมบัติติดตัวของคนไทย คือ มักใชัอวัจนภาษาได้แก่ การยิ้ม และการไหว้ประกอบ การกล่าวมักใช้คำว่า สวัสดี เป็นการเริมต้น

It is a greeting to someone you know and as you see สวัสดี comes after the body language: smile, wai.

................................................................................

.......................................

I think สบายดีไหม means 'how do you do' I am reasonably sure that the answer is 'well thanks' same as English. It is not a question, only a greeting.

การทักทายปราศรัย เป้นคุณสมบัติติดตัวของคนไทย คือ มักใชัอวัจนภาษาได้แก่ การยิ้ม และการไหว้ประกอบ การกล่าวมักใช้คำว่า สวัสดี เป็นการเริมต้น

I find it almost impossible to understand most book and newspaper Thai. Seems a totally different language to everyday spoken Thai. I suppose that it depends on the people one mixes with. Can you translate it to English please?

I think that there are a few typos in your example - very easily done, I'm not being critical. So maybe...

การทักทายปราศรัย เป็นคุณสมบัติติดตัวของคนไทย คือ มักใช้อวัจน ภาษาได้แก่ การยิ้ม และการไหว้ประกอบ การกล่าวมักใช้คำว่า สวัสดี เป็นการเริ่มต้น

อวัจน- what does this mean? Is it something similar to วัจนะ ?

I think สบายดีไหม means 'how do you do'

Again, I suppose it depends on who you mix with, but I don't know anyone who uses the phrase "How do you do". Maybe if I met the Queen.

[Felixer]

You are right DavidH... "sabaidii" is Laotian for hello...

[oevna]

...

Anyway my experience is probably exactly the opposite of yours... maybe you should take some long taxi rides. I swear if you say anything at all to those taxi drivers in Thai they will assume you are fluent and talk your ear off the entire trip!

This is so true! It is a great exercise in listening comprehension. I have also had taxi drivers who, when they found out I could speak Thai, used it as an opportunity to ask me to explain how to say various things in English, and what responses to expect from English-speaking tourists. I've gotten discounted taxi fares from giving basic English lessons to taxi drivers.

Edited March 24, 2009 by oevna