Thai-farang Relationship(s)

[No beleeeeve!]

Two cents away....

Well, you opened yourself up here, and I got some time to kill so here goes.....

Everything you mentioned sound like strikes in the relationship. Big age difference, former prosititute, you're well traveled (gives you a false sense of knowledge, nothing you learned elsewhere applies in Thailand unless you lived in some other Southeast Asian country), and the feeling that you have to please the family.

Why on God's great earth with so many girls to choose from would you pick a former hooker? And yes, Isaan girls do have a bad track record but I will save that for others to go on about.

Of course the girl doesn't care about the age difference because that usually means more of your accumulated resources at her disposal. A strapping young lad fresh from college can't support her and her family and your relationship!

Plus, as you said you are older so you are less likely to be cruising the bars for an even younger current/former BG.

I could go on, but as mentioned, there are a million posts about the failure rate of Westerner/prostitute relationships and but a few rare examples to support their success so that the guys who want to hear the rare example find what they are looking for.

On here when someone posts this question, they are not really looking for the truth so much as someone to agree with their position so that they can use that to support how they feel and go do what they were going to always do to begin with, which is pursue/stay with the BG/former BG. And despite the overiding evidence that these relationships are doomed to fail, guys still let their little tiny heads do their thinking and go for it anyway.

When faced with something I just can't figure out, I use what I call the "Grandmother test." If I told my story to my Grandmother and felt like a complete idiot or if it was so bad I couldn't even tell her, then something is wrong about my situation that I need to correct. It is just a little thing I use to add clarity, I really don't even need to tell her anything.

You get the point. Ask yourself this. If you one day introduce this girl to family/work colleagues/ etc. and someone asks what she did before her current job, will you tell them she was a prostitute? If you have to lie about your g/f, that is something wrong too.

Yes, there are one in a million exceptions, but those exceptions do not negate the majority.

Good luck!

[meemiathai]

This must be the longest troll I've ever seen!

The only thing is you must be really ugly to still be single at the age of 51!

From what I have read from you, I'll guess the chance of you being cheated by a girl is slim.  Not many girls are that stupid.

Oh, wow, ouch, that’s just the sort of witty, intelligent repartee that really hurts.

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

[easyb]

Now that is a thoughtful, well written post that has a lot that's worth reflecting on. Thanks for taking the time to write it and add value to the conversation.

I'd take some exception to your "grandmother test". I think there are some things in my life that aren't anyone's business. Let's say my future wife and I met at a drug rehap, or a 12 step program for over-spenders or maybe we met at the office and she was still married at the time, or in an adults only Internet chat room, or any number of things that might yes be indicators that we're less than perfect people but not necessarily something I'd feel compelled to share with people, even my grandmother. Is it a lie to gloss over with "oh it's a long story" I suppose - one of the many small lies we all tell as social lubricants and smooth the edges of life. I would agree that other than that if I felt compelled to make up some elaborate story about our ages, or that she had been an executive at IBM in Thailand or her family is really rich or some such because I was fundamentally embarrassed about who she was then I think your point is spot on. And btw I do have one friend who I trust in all things and he knows all (and tells me to watch my step). It was a little awkward but I do think it good to have someone you trust in these matters other than anonymous posting on the Internet, but maybe that's me.

Let me ask you one hypothetical question - if everything else was the same except she hadn't ever worked as a BG, just done factory or administrative type jobs or maybe worked retail in a department store what would you say to the core questions. I'm not trying duck your solid advice just understand the cultural issues.

It is perhaps interesting to reflect that in most western countries around half of marriages end in divorce. So even when all the factors seem to align we has humans are only so-so in understanding how to pick a mate and maintain a relationship. (divorce btw is a very complex statistical subject so I'm sure we could thrash on that one but suffice to say divorce is very common and rising in most western countries). And I put myself squarely in that camp having my 20+ year marriage fall apart a few years ago. It's something that happens even when the social factors are aligned - what makes love and relationships work is another complex subject..

thanks again No beleeeeve!

[easyb]

This must be the longest troll I've ever seen!

The only thing is you must be really ugly to still be single at the age of 51!

From what I have read from you, I'll guess the chance of you being cheated by a girl is slim.  Not many girls are that stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, wow, ouch, that’s just the sort of witty, intelligent repartee that really hurts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I'm sorry. I did take that wrong. Once you said I was ugly I got all upset, ran into the bathroom, looked at myself in the mirror and said ten times "###### you're good looking" I should have paid attention to the happy face.

Now I understand what you are saying (or I think I do) which is you think after reading my posts that a girl would be happy to be with me and wouldn't cheat and mess things up. If that's the case 1000 appologies for jumping to conclusions. Thanks for setting the record straight and again sorry about the misunderstanding.

[aughie]

This must be the longest troll I've ever seen!

The only thing is you must be really ugly to still be single at the age of 51!

From what I have read from you, I'll guess the chance of you being cheated by a girl is slim.  Not many girls are that stupid.

Oh, wow, ouch, that’s just the sort of witty, intelligent repartee that really hurts.

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

He writes like an intelligent man so you don't know why he is still single and not taken. Only a stupid girl would attempt to trick this guy and screw up a good thing.

Edited January 17, 2005 by aughie

[meemiathai]

Two cents away....

Well, you opened yourself up here, and I got some time to kill so here goes.....

Everything you mentioned sound like strikes in the relationship.  Big age difference, former prosititute, you're well traveled (gives you a false sense of knowledge, nothing you learned elsewhere applies in Thailand unless you lived in some other Southeast Asian country), and the feeling that you have to please the family.

Why on God's great earth with so many girls to choose from would you pick a former hooker?  And yes, Isaan girls do have a bad track record but I will save that for others to go on about.

Of course the girl doesn't care about the age difference because that usually means more of your accumulated resources at her disposal.  A strapping young lad fresh from college can't support her and her family and your relationship!

Plus, as you said you are older so you are less likely to be cruising the bars for an even younger current/former BG.

I could go on, but as mentioned, there are a million posts about the failure rate of Westerner/prostitute relationships and but a few rare examples to support their success so that the guys who want to hear the rare example find what they are looking for.

On here when someone posts this question, they are not really looking for the truth so much as someone to agree with their position so that they can use that to support how they feel and go do what they were going to always do to begin with, which is pursue/stay with the BG/former BG.  And despite the overiding evidence that these relationships are doomed to fail, guys still let their little tiny heads do their thinking and go for it anyway.

When faced with something I just can't figure out, I use what I call the "Grandmother test."  If I told my story to my Grandmother and felt like a complete idiot or if it was so bad I couldn't even tell her, then something is wrong about my situation that I need to correct.  It is just a little thing I use to add clarity, I really don't even need to tell her anything.

You get the point.  Ask yourself this.  If you one day introduce this girl to family/work colleagues/ etc. and someone asks what she did before her current job, will you tell them she was a prostitute?  If you have to lie about your g/f, that is something wrong too.

Yes, there are one in a million exceptions, but those exceptions do not negate the majority.

Good luck!

See, most of these people are capable of making a lot of seemingly valid points like they understand a lot and are very insightful, but they absolutely fail to look at things with more than one angle.(that is other than the farang male's angle)

And I would say most of these people also believe farangs are superior to Thais(perhaps subconciously).

And yes, Isaan girls do have a bad track record but I will save that for others to go on about

there are a million posts about the failure rate of Westerner/prostitute relationships and but a few rare examples to support their success so that the guys who want to hear the rare example find what they are looking for.

They look at things on the surface and won't give a few more seconds to think about them.

They fail to realise what sort of farangs frequent the bars.

They fail to see how nice?brilliant? some farangs are.

They fail to see how astronomical the number of times farangs cheat on BGs cos they aren't even able of understanding a single thing the gals say.

They fail to see how capable of understanding other people's culture some farangs are.

They fail to see how many times it's the stupidity of the farangs who make things fail.

They fail to see normal relations break up as well.

And when some of these relations turn sour, they think ah! It's because they are exBGs and from Isaan as well.

And perhaps most importantly, they fail to even have a slight glimpse at how inteligent or stupid the OP is!

[meemiathai]

This must be the longest troll I've ever seen!

The only thing is you must be really ugly to still be single at the age of 51!

From what I have read from you, I'll guess the chance of you being cheated by a girl is slim.  Not many girls are that stupid.

Oh, wow, ouch, that’s just the sort of witty, intelligent repartee that really hurts.

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

Oh I'm sorry. I did take that wrong. Once you said I was ugly I got all upset, ran into the bathroom, looked at myself in the mirror and said ten times "###### you're good looking" I should have paid attention to the happy face.

Now I understand what you are saying (or I think I do) which is you think after reading my posts that a girl would be happy to be with me and wouldn't cheat and mess things up. If that's the case 1000 appologies for jumping to conclusions. Thanks for setting the record straight and again sorry about the misunderstanding.

Thanks!

No need to sorry at all!

I feel happy now.

[meemiathai]

This must be the longest troll I've ever seen!

The only thing is you must be really ugly to still be single at the age of 51!

From what I have read from you, I'll guess the chance of you being cheated by a girl is slim.  Not many girls are that stupid.

Oh, wow, ouch, that’s just the sort of witty, intelligent repartee that really hurts.

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

He writes like an intelligent man so you don't know why he is still single and not taken. Only a stupid girl would attempt to trick this guy and screw up a good thing.

Thank you too.

[cdnvic]

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

What a load of crap.

Easyb you haven't been around long enough to know our resident farung basher. meemiathai sits around waiting to be insulted then lashes out calling us all 'stupid' or something similar, then when someone calls him on it he backs off with "oh my english not too good" or "I didn't mean you" or similar garbage.

Read back through his posts and you'll see that his english up to then is fine, he just has some agenda against non-thais.

Just don't take him too seriously

cv

[No beleeeeve!]

You are welcome...just know I am on your side on this. I am not questioning your values or applying mine to your situation. But I always say if I have to lie about something, I need to change what I am doing so I don't have to lie about it. I would say that lying about your g/f being a former prostitute certainly isn't a "little white lie" it is a huge lie!

I often rant on various boards about this situation because I think guys deserve better and after seeing so many of my friends get screwed over by these very type of girls in Thailand it still boils my blood. I really wish this didn't happen and I had nothing to write about this topic. I wish you all the luck as well.

And only one friend who asked my advice on this topic ever actually listened, took the information for exactly what it was, and believed it. He didn't get angry with me, and he realized that what he was doing was a waste of time, he moved on, and is totally happy he did. He was mixed up with a girl who was a freelancer and I caught her lying and her house of cards came tumbling down. Now, he found a great girl, no lying to speak of, she isn't a hooker of any nature, and he couldn't be happier.

All my other friends asked for my advice, I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear, and they did what they wanted to anyway. And they too, came up with a million "what ifs."

Oh, I don't actually tell my grandmother things, it is just an example to prove a point. And there are exceptions to every discussion that centers around human behavior but let's just call it as it is.

One should only really ask hypothetical questions to explore other potential options that may come up in the future so that one is prepared. Here it just serves to avoid the reality of the situation.

And as I said, I really don't think people who ask that question here really want to address the issue directly anyway.

The thrust of my point is when given the choice, and you do have a choice in Thailand, why choose a former BG? If (this may not apply to you) it is a lack of social skills and/or the easy availability of a BG/former BG what does that say about your stance in life? Not trying to drag ya through the mud, just being real with you.

If you want to chat about cultural issues, let me dig up one of my previous posts on this topic one day.

I wrote somewhere before it is like a hamster dating a goldfish, there are just too many fundamental differences in the cognition of the cultures. Like building a wonderfully solid house on quicksand. You are fighting some depressing odds and even then it takes a concentrated effort to achieve happiness. But let's be honest, most guys likely wouldn't get a girl 20-30 years younger than them in their home country like they can in Thailand so they fight the good fight anyway. Great for them. I hope it works for you.

Okay...back to the relationship thing...I did see one exception while in Thailand. One, yes one. I did say one, and one only.

One relationship between a a British guy and a former BG. I have seen many guys dating girls, but only one that was a deeper, fulfilling relationship, not just one of these "We get along great, I get to walk around with a 20ish tart on my arms and feel great about myself" type of relationships either. But one where the couple talk about things in life, worlds events, Thai/British history, science, whatever.

In the end here of my rambling...I have just one question...don't you feel you deserve better?

Good luck....

[meemiathai]

Just in case you misunderstood me, the whole post was meant a compliment.

Perhaps was my poor way of expressing or my english.

Is there anyone here who understood what I was trying to say?

What a load of crap.

Easyb you haven't been around long enough to know our resident farung basher. meemiathai sits around waiting to be insulted then lashes out calling us all 'stupid' or something similar, then when someone calls him on it he backs off with "oh my english not too good" or "I didn't mean you" or similar garbage.

Read back through his posts and you'll see that his english up to then is fine, he just has some agenda against non-thais.

Just don't take him too seriously

cv

Glad to see that you understand me so thoroughly.

[pnustedt]

I've been married 5 yrs to an Isaan I picked up in a bar 8 yrs ago. We have a good relationship.

Many of my mates also have relationships with Isaan girls they picked up in bars. Most of them are very happy and I do not see the problems that are being spouted on this thread.

I don't think a good relationship with an Isaan ex-bar girl is an exception - rather the general rule. Treat her good and with respect and you will be well rewarded with a valuable companion for the rest of your life.

Perhaps you should think your long term plan as eventually living in Thailand? I'm sure your partner would miss her family if she moved to US.

[easyb]

<deleted his whole post/reply above to just answer this question - easyb>

In the end here of my rambling...I have just one question...don't you feel you deserve better? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Don't you deserve better" is an interesting question. Let me interject a quick tangent first. The other day I was talking to someone and said I was trying to understand the "why" of this relationship. They said to me "I find it helpful some times instead of asking "Why?" ask "to what purpose?"". Indeed.

I had a good wife for 20+ years who is the mother of two fabulous children that I love with all my heart. We were good friends in so many ways and shared many common interest. She came from a good family, university education, intelligent, talented, articulate and really quite good looking to this day. I loved her. I adored her. But I did wake up one day to find myself working my tail off, taking care of everything for someone who didn't have the time to really say thanks. Who had a long list of things for me to do and grievances about things I'd done. Someone who was happy when I'd take off on another couple of a week trip and not afraid to complain about it when I came home. This is a woman I could dress up and take to any function, who I didn't have to lie about and who I always felt quite happy and proud to have as a wife. Now these things are always 50%-50% and I learned a lot about myself coming out of this marriage thanks to a really good therapist (and not embarrassed to disclose that). But one thing I did learn was that I deserved better - or perhaps I should say I deserved to learn to be a better man so I could have better. I'm a loving, generous, kind man who for my family (immediate and extended) and friends I'd do pretty much anything. I work hard, provide for my family, come home every night (when I'm in town) and most times make dinner - not out with the boys at bars, playing golf, watching TV or the rest. The last three years I've averaged around $300,000 a year in income. My kids go to top private colleges, we take amazing vacations together (or did). And yeah I've got my share of pain in the tush traits as well. I'm not a saint. However, I woke up one day to someone who thought this was all her God given right on this planet and treating such a man with kindness and respect wasn't really required. It broke my heart but I left her because I deserved better or wanted to learn to have better. To this day and for many years I'll support her. She'd have me back in a heartbeat but you know what? I deserve better now but the hard job is for me be the man that is ready for "better".

Frankly I don't know what I "deserve" in this life. I suppose on one level we all get exactly what we deserve, no more, no less and I guess the above wouldn't be any exception. I got what I deserved - and I've tried hard to change my self-perception so next time I'm happy when I get just that - what I deserve.

I can tell you what I want. I want someone I can share mutual respect with. Someone who can share their feelings at something less that a screech. Someone who knows how to talk things out. With understanding. Someone who will be kind to me, gentle with me, appreciative of my hard work and dedication to family. Someone who likes it when I'm a strong leader of the family and not threaten to see me cry. Someone that has deep values that intersect with mine in good ways. Someone who shares my sense of good fortune to be together. Someone who enjoys the simple things I love, family, walks, cooking, friends. Someone that makes me want to be a better man.

Over the holidays I talked to my sister, parents, brother and friends that go back 30+ years about this woman. To be honest not one person really cared about the details on how we met. Without exception they provided good caution, sound advice and in the end said something to the effect "if it makes you happy you should do it and we will accept whatever you do - because you deserve better than you had in your last marriage"

Do I deserve better than a this woman who happened to work as a BG for a few years? I don't think it's mine to say what I deserve because in the end that's exactly what I'll get, no more, no less. My question is "will this person bring to me, and can I bring to her, the happiness and companionship we both want?" In other words "to what purpose". Maybe it's my karma to learn to love someone like her, maybe it's a lesson in humility, in forgiveness that I need to learn to have the redemption within myself. Maybe in accepting her flawed past it's a way to accept mine. To just let go of the past and look ahead. Just maybe she brings the real inner qualities I want in a relationship. And maybe the gulf between us is too wide for any number of reasons. Love doesn't span any chasm - some are just too wide. Maybe she's a bad case of me trying to be a good guy going too far. I don't know to be honest and figure it's probably a better part of a year more before I do. I'm not in a hurry.

[easyb]

I've been married 5 yrs to an Isaan I picked up in a bar 8 yrs ago. We have a good relationship.

Many of my mates also have relationships with Isaan girls they picked up in bars. Most of them are very happy and I do not see the problems that are being spouted on this thread.

I don't think a good relationship with an Isaan ex-bar girl is an exception - rather the general rule. Treat her good and with respect and you will be well rewarded with a valuable companion for the rest of your life.

Perhaps you should think your long term plan as eventually living in Thailand? I'm sure your partner would miss her family if she moved to US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I can could live in Thailand. For the next 5-10 years it's hard to imagine that just given my job and opportunties here in the US but when I'm ready for another gig, more relaxed but low-pay sure, from what I've seen and know of myself I'd be OK in Thailand. In the meantime I do worry about her missing Thailand and family if she were to move to the US. I wonder often if that's the real deal breaker here. Experience with that would be interesting to hear.

[chico]

i have to underline what pnustedt said : we live in isaan too, many farangs around here, and from all i know only one who get cheated by his girlfriend (maybe him coming only once a year for a couple of weeks is not too easy for her also), all other relationships are doing fine, some with bigger, some with smaller age gaps.

obviously all of the ladies have worked in bars before, how could they otherwise speak english, or get to know farangs - i do not know any, who liked their "job", but if you have a child, husband has a new (younger, prettier, richer) wife, what to you do? apart from having to support the parents too?

we have been living quite a while in europe, all my (real) friends know her, where she comes from, none has ever been disrespectful to her, they love her for her straightforwardness and humourous replies, and since we are living now in isaan and only going for holidays to europe, to visit my mother, they are always organizing a gettogether to meet us.

maybe i should mention the sozial class we are talking about : doctors (med), university prof, school teachers, mp, ass gm of big bank, exec vice pres of internat conglomerates and so on.

i have been married in europe before, not too succesful, i have never been a real good boy, i truly do not know if and why i deserve such a lady : beautiful, intelligent (although as in isaan with little education), caring and absolutely honest.

i do support her family, although both parents have died in the last five years, but i lend money to her brothers, who had been borrowing before (at 5%/month) and they do are paying back, but without interest!

and that was my offer, when i saw their situation, my wife never asked me to do it!

one more point, easyb, i never looked for any (permanent) relationship, I did not wanted any more of that, having had some bad ones (in europe), it just happened that we met, and since then, we are together -i did not think, it would work, but thought, what the ######, just "wait and see", and now, i must say : I DO NOT REGRET ANY MINUTE OF IT, but then, this is my wife and me, and certainly others will be different, just to let you know, if you want to do it, you better believe in it, than it will work!

[srisatch]

She, then, is 27. That's getting on for a Thai. But stuff the age difference; I don't think that is the point!. At that age she is hardly a trophy wife! How old is the daughter? Where is the father/husband?

If you have met the family in BKK, have you been to where they live in BKK? And to the market/stall or whatever? Go to the Issan home...where are her sisters and brothers?

Where does she live? You don't say. Where do you stay with her?

Its just normal stuff. As some-one says you sound like a smart guy but US smart and Issan smart ain't the same.

All the BG stuff is generalisation-but as the Thais say- "If the dog don't shit there is no smell"

I don't sense what is in it for you-other than the obvious-

On the Visa stuff it is all in the 'official sites'. Don't know about the US but the Brits are keen on 'genuine marriages/relationships'-you need to live together/prove you are supporting each other or you her and the kid-have a life in common..keep your bills-phone bills-remittance slips-bank statements..any doc that looks good.

Take it slowly

Good luck

Thanks a million for spending your valuable time reading this – any help or answers greatly appreciated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[srisatch]

Oh well re what I just said..Either my computer is upside down or I am..but I am new to this too-don't you just hate that freaky word newbie!? So I had not read what you last wrote... I am older than you-so not so wet behind the ears and thus an old fart,too..not that such an appellation would have gone down well in the multinational where I worked

I live in LOS and France, have a Thai wife and kids. She is/was not a BG and is not from Issan..a place she don't have much time for but then that's Thais.

For us the biggest problem has been language, followed by confidence. There is a lot of put down to contend with. When we are in Europe she is to my eye a normally confident, secure, beautiful woman-she is 28, to whom guys are continually making propositions just as they would if she was a French woman-well more so! But here she is always likely to go into 'I am a worthless woman' mode usually brought on by visits to family, monks, friends of parents. Many of her friends are competent business women but in the face of the shittiness of Thai boys they are quite fazed. Also that she has a farang husband always gives the Thais the chance to behave as though was a bar girl...after all where else could we have met...in a university as it happens..but they are not going to start with any other assumption. She can't believe how everyone traets her like just another person in Europe, while here it is all judgmental...think on't!!

[Darknight]

Oh well re what I just said..Either my computer is upside down or I am..but I am new to this too-don't you just hate that freaky word newbie!?

7 more post to go for member srisatch , keep up the good work

[easyb]

She, then, is 27. That's getting on for a Thai. But stuff the age difference; I don't think that is the point!. At that age she is hardly a trophy wife! How old is the daughter? Where is the father/husband?

If you have met the family in BKK, have you been to where they live in BKK? And to the market/stall or whatever? Go to the Issan home...where are her sisters and brothers?

Where does she live? You don't say. Where do you stay with her?

Its just normal stuff. As some-one says you sound like a smart guy but US smart and Issan smart ain't the same.

All the BG stuff is generalisation-but as the Thais say- "If the dog don't shit there is no smell"

I don't sense what is in it for you-other than the obvious-

On the Visa stuff it is all in the 'official sites'. Don't know about the US but the Brits are keen on 'genuine marriages/relationships'-you need to live together/prove you are supporting each other or you her and the kid-have a life in common..keep your bills-phone bills-remittance slips-bank statements..any doc that looks good.

Take it slowly

Good luck

Thanks a million for spending your valuable time reading this – any help or answers greatly appreciated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, 27

Daughter 5

Father, ex-boyfriend gone, assume she could track him down but no contact in years

Yes I have met the family many times. When in Bangkok we go to their house, or should I say room, on the outskirts of Bangkok. Sometimes we go out to eat but most times just spread out on the floor, have some food and beer and talk. The extended family is all there, brothers, wives, kids, cousin and niece plus friends around. Have met others, aunt, cousin. We have all gone on weekend trip together - sleeping with her, mother, daughter and brother in a big bed together :-) I've been to their market stand (or one of them, they have another somewhere else), very basic but they make a living.

She does not live with her family, too far from her work. She lives in Thonburi. I stay in her apartment when I'm in Bangkok. Every day off and maybe 1x extra a week she goes home to see family and daughter so we do the same when I am there but maybe see the family a little more. It’s a long taxi ride but she likes to take me out there for an hour or so visit in the evening then we come back to her apartment.

I get along with daughter fine, in fact I wouldn't want to get too close at this point, it's not fair to a child who likes me and I know wants a dad. So I take that slow but we play games and have a little fun. When her mom calls me from her parents the daughter and I chat on the phone a little. She’s learning Thai just like me! (all speak Issan at home)

I know many of her friends. Some are still BGs, some ex-BG, and some with families and were never BGs. And co-workers, spend some time with them. We have things we do, typical I guess like go play badminton with friends.

Next trip we go up to Issan to mooban. They still have their home there.

What’s in it for me? The relationship, maybe one that’s a little different than I could find here. Love yes, companionship, a family – the same thing anyone wants. I like having a woman in my life, one woman. Some of the ways people describe this in other posts resonates with my experience so far. Just a nice heartfelt relationship with someone I love and who loves me. Good times doing the wonderful, simple things in live. Just the same as anyone else.

Thanks for the visa info.

[easyb]

Oh well re what I just said..Either my computer is upside down or I am..but I am new to this too-don't you just hate that freaky word newbie!? So I had not read what you last wrote... I am older than you-so not so wet behind the ears and thus an old fart,too..not that such an appellation would have gone down well in the multinational where I worked

I live in LOS and France, have a Thai wife and kids. She is/was not a BG and is not from Issan..a place she don't have much time for but then that's Thais.

For us the biggest problem has been language, followed by confidence. There is a lot of put down to contend with. When we are in Europe she is to my eye a normally confident, secure, beautiful woman-she is 28, to whom guys are continually making propositions just as they would if she was a French woman-well more so! But here she is always likely to go into 'I am a worthless woman' mode usually brought on by visits to family, monks, friends of parents.  Many of her friends are competent business women but in the face of the shittiness of Thai boys they are quite fazed. Also that she has a farang husband always gives the Thais the chance to behave as though was a bar girl...after all where else could we have met...in a university as it happens..but they are not going to start with any other assumption. She can't believe how everyone traets her like just another person in Europe, while here it is all judgmental...think on't!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This other Thai woman I met in the US said as much as she loves and misses Thailand she wants to live in the US because of how she is treated. Her view, and it's just one person, was that it's eaiser for a woman in the US once you get used to the culture, because she is just treated like another person. And yes in the US I don't think people would assume we met in a bar unless maybe they know that scene well. Maybe some would assume "mail order" but for people who know me and that I travel a lot in Asia to say "met while I was in Thailand" is enough for them, Thailand is 8000 miles away and they don't have time to wonder about details. They accept on face value what it is.

Thanks for the post

[No beleeeeve!]

Okay, ask yourself this. Why isn't it that men that go to Thailand and settle down with current/former prostitutes not do so in their home country?

And why I think it is not the most productive choice in Thailand is because of not only what type of girl goes into that profession but ALSO what it does to them while they are in it. All of this when there are plenty of great non-prostitute Thai women to choose from.

None of that "I didn't choose love, it chose me garbage" either.

My guess is that the easy availability of these women is the answer. The majority of the guys who do this (yes there are exceptions, enough of the exceptions trying to disprove the majority already) often cannot get a 20-30ish lass back home, so when one bats an eyelash at the guys here they jump on it.

All in all, there is a choice but when one chooses a prostitute then he has to deal with the cumulative psychological effects of that for a long time to come when you can avoid that all together. It's that simple. Why choose the extra grief.

And yes, as mentioned earlier NOT by me...I have seen the Aussies seem to do well with settling down with current/former prostitutes, what is your secret???

[Pink Mist]

this is deteriorating into a BG thread, much more and it's out the window.

[fisherd3]

censored in the light of the above.

Censored though factual and inoffensive..

Edited January 18, 2005 by fisherd3

[easyb]

Okay, ask yourself this.  Why isn't it that men that go to Thailand and settle down with current/former prostitutes not do so in their home country?

And why I think it is not the most productive choice in Thailand is because of not only what type of girl goes into that profession but ALSO what it does to them while they are in it. All of this when there are plenty of great non-prostitute Thai women to choose from. 

None of that "I didn't choose love, it chose me garbage" either. 

My guess is that the easy availability of these women is the answer.  The majority of the guys who do this (yes there are exceptions, enough of the exceptions trying to disprove the majority already) often cannot get a 20-30ish lass back home, so when one bats an eyelash at the guys here they jump on it.

All in all, there is a choice but when one chooses a prostitute then he has to deal with the cumulative psychological effects of that for a long time to come when you can avoid that all together.  It's that simple.  Why choose the extra grief.

And yes, as mentioned earlier NOT by me...I have seen the Aussies seem to do well with settling down with current/former prostitutes, what is your secret???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the risk of angering Bronco I’d like to take a stab at this. Let me say also I’m playing a little of the devil’s advocate here….

I think you’re looking at the whole thing on one dimension. There is a common tool in business where you take a square and divide it into four sections. You have one criteria be the Y axis and the other be the X axis. Say something like Wealth is the Y and Health is the X. The upper right hand square is lots of wealth and lots of heath – the optimum. The lower left is no wealth, no health – a bummer. Upper left and lower right you have wealth without health and health without wealth. And from those two you can decide is it easier to get to the top right by buying health or getting wealth if you’re healthy. Got it?

<this is going to be a guy example but the ladies will understand how to impute a gal’s version>

There are 6,000,000,000 people on the planet. Around 3,000,000,000 are women. Now if I take out the ones that are married, too old, too young, not attractive to my taste, unsuitable by personality – whatever I’m sure I’m left with some 1/million of a percent or 3000 women who are really, *really* great matches for me. And I bet 300 of them would be near perfect. Now all I have to do is maybe date 300,000 women to find these three hundred. Oh I wish…The fact is there will always be a better woman for you. The odds are huge that this is true. The reality of this short life is that we accept good enough in many things and make it work. Every woman I could meet I’m going to look at and accept something that’s less than perfect or ideal for me. I’ll make some trade-offs. Now a Boston Matrix would be good to measure these trade-offs.

Really off the top of my head I’m not sure the factors I’d put into my Boston Matrix – often you have a number of factors and give them weighted averages. Say “attractiveness” could be a combination of body build, facial features, race or ethnicity, age, etc. and “appropriate” could be common interest, background, culture, religion, good heart, wealth, etc. The upper right quadrant would be women that are highly attractive and highly appropriate. In the lower right are women that you hope you don’t wake up in the morning with. Then there are some who are attractive but not really appropriate for you (gotta love them) and some who are very appropriate but not attractive (gotta take home to grandmother). Overall I guess that’s it might be easier to get someone who’s attractive to be more appropriate than the other way but maybe it’s easier to get along with someone who’s appropriate but not attractive – you just get used to it and love them for who they are. It’s a risk-reward decision you make.

This may seem all to analytical but I really think this is the trade-offs we do in our heads. So let’s see – very working class, Issan, BG girl. Good points – attractive yes – OK that’s cool. Desirability – some stuff is good and some is a challenge. Maybe the “loyalty” factor is weighted equal to the “past partners” factors. “really ready for a decent guy” is weighted against the “looking for the right career” factor. In the end all this gets weighted and you make a pick and take a risk.

Yes I don’t doubt that there is a better Thai lady for me. But do I have six months a year to go to Thailand for 10 years and check out even .001% of the options? And you know I ain’t even been to Laos yet. Now meeting a woman “professionally” is not the best but at some level you met them, spent some intimate time and cut to the chase on one level. Then you look at the upside, downside and do some risk analysis and like every really great businessman – you go with your gut.

easyb

btw – if you know any really nice, “well breed”, sub-35 Thai ladies who would like to know a nice farang gentleman have them PM me. I haven’t made up my mind

[pnustedt]

Are you a consultant Easyb - if you aren't then you should be!

[chico]

btw – if you know any really nice, “well breed”, sub-35 Thai ladies who would like to know a nice farang gentleman have them PM me. I haven’t made up my mind

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if you "have a big heart" they will wait in line!

btw nasty people call this "heart" - wallet!!

[easyb]

Okay, ask yourself this.  Why isn't it that men that go to Thailand and settle down with current/former prostitutes not do so in their home country?

And why I think it is not the most productive choice in Thailand is because of not only what type of girl goes into that profession but ALSO what it does to them while they are in it. All of this when there are plenty of great non-prostitute Thai women to choose from. 

None of that "I didn't choose love, it chose me garbage" either. 

My guess is that the easy availability of these women is the answer.  The majority of the guys who do this (yes there are exceptions, enough of the exceptions trying to disprove the majority already) often cannot get a 20-30ish lass back home, so when one bats an eyelash at the guys here they jump on it.

All in all, there is a choice but when one chooses a prostitute then he has to deal with the cumulative psychological effects of that for a long time to come when you can avoid that all together.  It's that simple.  Why choose the extra grief.

And yes, as mentioned earlier NOT by me...I have seen the Aussies seem to do well with settling down with current/former prostitutes, what is your secret???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is good in the worst of us, and bad in the best of us. Not all 'decent' females turn out to be decent. And not all prostitutes turn out to be bad.

If easyb does not have the baIIs to go with his intuition due to 'public opinion' here on TV then he deserves exactly what he ends up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Ravisher 1000%. Let’s be clear – I didn’t ask in the beginning if I should be with this woman. I didn’t even ask about her professional background. I was interested in the experiences people had on age and culture. Really the whole BG thing is a digression but one that I’ll admit is at least somewhat relevant once you get past the replies that are the written equivalent of bubbling between the lips drool. But Ravisher is right – in the end I’m not looking for someone to make a call that needs to be done in my heart, and yes with a little balls, I’m trying to get educated, to get smarter, to learn. I mean jeezze should I post and ask if you all think she is good looking enough for me? What I really wanted, and got a reasonable dose of, is experiences good and bad with Thai women, who are a lot younger than the guy, with “humble” backgrounds and how these relationships work out. Oh and yeah, what kind of presents I should bring to hear parents. At this point all I can think of for the parents are matching t-shirts that say “my daughter got a farang and all I got was this lousy t-shirt”

[easyb]

Are you a consultant Easyb - if you aren't then you should be!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A consultant??? how insulting!!! You mean someone who sells their time by the hour for the whim and dreams of clients? What do you take me for??

Not me!! I work for a Fortune 500 company and I get to go out and find the most attractive consultants, no matter what the cost, who can make my every dream come true and make me a hero in my next business review. If I don't like them, or maybe they get a little over used, I find another who is fresh and full desire to please me. I'll admit I have trouble settling down - there are always new ones, fresh MBA's, so fresh you can smell the ink on the diplomas, their laptops with the latest version of Excell, new markers for the whiteboard. Oh stop me, I think I’m about to go hire another one….

[easyb]

Okay, ask yourself this.  Why isn't it that men that go to Thailand and settle down with current/former prostitutes not do so in their home country?

And why I think it is not the most productive choice in Thailand is because of not only what type of girl goes into that profession but ALSO what it does to them while they are in it. All of this when there are plenty of great non-prostitute Thai women to choose from. 

None of that "I didn't choose love, it chose me garbage" either. 

My guess is that the easy availability of these women is the answer.  The majority of the guys who do this (yes there are exceptions, enough of the exceptions trying to disprove the majority already) often cannot get a 20-30ish lass back home, so when one bats an eyelash at the guys here they jump on it.

All in all, there is a choice but when one chooses a prostitute then he has to deal with the cumulative psychological effects of that for a long time to come when you can avoid that all together.  It's that simple.  Why choose the extra grief.

And yes, as mentioned earlier NOT by me...I have seen the Aussies seem to do well with settling down with current/former prostitutes, what is your secret???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is good in the worst of us, and bad in the best of us. Not all 'decent' females turn out to be decent. And not all prostitutes turn out to be bad.

If easyb does not have the baIIs to go with his intuition due to 'public opinion' here on TV then he deserves exactly what he ends up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Ravisher 1000%. Let’s be clear – I didn’t ask in the beginning if I should be with this woman. I didn’t even ask about her professional background. I was interested in the experiences people had on age and culture. Really the whole BG thing is a digression but one that I’ll admit is at least somewhat relevant once you get past the replies that are the written equivalent of bubbling between the lips drool. But Ravisher is right – in the end I’m not looking for someone to make a call that needs to be done in my heart, and yes with a little balls, I’m trying to get educated, to get smarter, to learn. I mean jeezze should I post and ask if you all think she is good looking enough for me? What I really wanted, and got a reasonable dose of, is experiences good and bad with Thai women, who are a lot younger than the guy, with “humble” backgrounds and how these relationships work out. Oh and yeah, what kind of presents I should bring to hear parents. At this point all I can think of for the parents are matching t-shirts that say “my daughter got a farang and all I got was this lousy t-shirt”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

easyb, You say that you are trying to get educated here... so I will educate you. Let me tell you what the absolute truth is... You do not have any 'choice' in this matter. No choice at all. None!

What we humans do, is 'calculate'. We do not 'choose' anything at all in our entire lives, we calculate. We do this whether selecting a drink, a car, or selecting a woman/wife. We do the calculations based on what we are at the time, in the circumstances we find ourselves and with the information we have at that time... and whatever comes down on the side of 'plus' we do that thing.

I see the way your mind works with your four squares thing... I see that you do a LOT of calculating, based on who you are right now, and the knowledge you have at hand. But in the end it comes down to the 'intuition' or what we call 'gut feelings'. The intuition is the brains accumulation of all the knowledge we have, consiously and subconsciously on the matter at hand. Our 'gut' tells us what to do when the calculations become too complex for the conscious mind to make a clear cut analysis. When there is no definite 'plus' or 'minus'.

This is an enormously complex matter... therefore, in this time and in these circumstances and with your prestent knowledge, the 'gut/intuition' is your one and only answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't agree more. Like I said in the last line in my reply to beleeeeve "you go with your gut. " It good to collect info, get the facts, pay attention, do the math but in the end none of this makes the decision for you - in life or in business. You have to close your eyes and trust the wind blowing through your soul.

[kreon]

geez as a 300k+ earner you seem to have a lot of time on your hands

btw, whats wrong with those mba's....or is it the color and feeling of their skin

anyway businessman to businessman, i treat all relationships as just that, a business transaction that needs a evaluation, if you have a lot of +'s go for it, if too many -'s give it a miss

call me pervert, but i am a lover of young 18+ female students, have had a few mba's though.....not too bad

au revoir

Edited January 18, 2005 by kreon