Govt. To Launch Sufficiency Economic Project On Mar 26

[animatic]

After reading more about this "self-sufficiency economy" model, it doesn't sound like a very good idea.

Firstly, it seems to be mainly about keeping poor people in place, which means to keep them poor, and nothing about rich people splashing their money on E-Class Mercedes' and Black Label Whiskeys. Consumption that certainly make a country less self-sufficient.

Secondly, it doesn't target the problems Thailand is facing today. Thailand is far too export dependent. One of the reasons for this is that domestic demand is low, and this in turn, is because too large of the pie ends up in a few hands. If a country wants to be self-sufficient it has to start consuming its own goods. I'm not saying it should not export, but when the size of export is 2/3 of the GDP, it's simply too much, and it makes it very volatile to downturns in the world economy.

There is a reason China is doing everything it can to increase domestic demand, and the reason for this is to make China more self-sufficient.

Thirdly, the argument that growing your own food will create increased security is nonsense. If this was the case, people in countries like Burma, Laos, North Korea, and countries in Africa would be the ones best off. That is certainly not the case. Food production is secured by using technology. And this "self-sufficiency" model seems to be against investments in technology, unless you have the money in the pocket, which poor people obviously don't have.

Chris, do you know who the author if the Sufficiency Economy is?

it is not this current administration for sure.

Burma can't transport it's goods anywhere, so no matter what It grows it's stuck.

Been there recently and seen first hand. Laos is in similar straits.

Viet Nam a bit better, but mostly from USA installed army era roads,

same as Thailand has.

Everyone complaining about this idea, seems to believe this is replacing

all other economic models for all segments of the whole country,

and so talk it down based on this misunderstanding.

This is more about sustainable farming a regional self reliance during down turns.

Such as the major one coming at us full speed.

Food is produced here and the logistics and marketing is the big issue.

The question remains when the world is not buying your products,

in the current climate because everyone is tapped out,

what do you do with your populace?

Big meqa projects and high budget long term boondoggles; ok for a few laborers,

or keep the great masses fed and functioning till the world climate improves.

While still maintaining larger projects ongoing, without losing the big picture.

This calls for PRACTICAL solutions, not political gamesmanship and name calling.

The anti-Sufficiency comments here seem more political than practically based.

[Oberkommando]

Remember, "some people will be more sufficient than others", or so we are told by those that wish to implement this policy of localism.

Of course the people who are dead set on implementing this policy are not living on the breadline, don't have financial worries and certainly don't need to worry where their next meal is coming from.

Pol Pot, another European educated leader, implemented a similar policy in the extreme, and look where Cambodia is today.

It is amusing to see people claiming this is the work of the current government. How foolish. This government doesn't have the choice nor does it make these 'executive' decisions.

[thaiwanderer]

Chris, do you know who the author if the Sufficiency Economy is?

it is not this current administration for sure.

Burma can't transport it's goods anywhere, so no matter what It grows it's stuck.(are you sure?)

Everyone complaining about this idea, seems to believe this is replacing

all other economic models for all segments of the whole country,

and so talk it down based on this misunderstanding.

This is more about sustainable farming a regional self reliance during down turns.

Such as the major one coming at us full speed.

A critique of the sufficiency economy is not possible.

It is correct to say that it is not aimed at replacing all economic models, it is however aimed at informing all areas and segments of Thai life (including all of the economy)(rather than merely farming - although its perhaps easiest to understand it in that context).

However mention of it by the PM is merely an easy soundbite - 2,000thb giveaways and more importantly the dire straits Thailands economy is in and the seeking of further loans (only a few weeks after the last lot which were said at the time likely to yield results with 2-3 months). Difficult to see when the current crisis will be repaid given the minimal repayments for 1997.

[Thai at Heart]

Excellent article

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/10/30...on_30017429.php

Conceptually, not a bad way for an individual to live their life. If everyone on mass can avoid excess, presumably the micro decision making can translate through to avoid macro disaster. Nice in theory, but I don't see how this translates into the government launching "sufficiency economy" projects. It seems more to me like an idea that should be given from parents to children along the lines of how they should try to run their lives, not a theory that demands "government" enforcement as an ideal.

No amount of government cajoling will stop people overextending themselves if they choose to, and it makes no account of those who are penniless or impoverished? However, calculated risk taking is the decision making process that builds economies, and everyone should be encouraged to get ahead. Living "sufficiently" won't achieve that. It may achieve stability but keeps one where one started.

There are many cultures that are averse to excessive debt on an individual level, but I am sure there are myriad studies about group psychology as to why seemingly intelligent people sign up for 120% mortgages and fail to survive the payments. We are witnessing globally what can happen if en masse people overextend themselves, but should we know choose to live sufficiently to try to avoid messes like these?

Edited March 30, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[Plus]

After reading more about this "self-sufficiency economy" model, it doesn't sound like a very good idea.

Maybe you should read some more. For example, there's a difference between "self-sufficiency" and "sufficiency". One was a model for small farmers presented a decade or so ago, the other is an approach to the whole economy that is built around knowledge and careful risk taking.

One needs to have lots of guts, or be totally shameless to critisise restraints in risk taking during current crisis. It's easier to critisise sufficiency economy instead, though it's basically one and the same thing.

[jayboy]

After reading more about this "self-sufficiency economy" model, it doesn't sound like a very good idea.

Maybe you should read some more. For example, there's a difference between "self-sufficiency" and "sufficiency". One was a model for small farmers presented a decade or so ago, the other is an approach to the whole economy that is built around knowledge and careful risk taking.

One needs to have lots of guts, or be totally shameless to critisise restraints in risk taking during current crisis. It's easier to critisise sufficiency economy instead, though it's basically one and the same thing.

I agree in current circumstances it's almost impossible to deny or refute at least the basic concept of the self-sufficiency model.However as Chang Noi pointed out in a recently posted quote understanding the idea is not enough:one needs to understand who (and I would say why as well) is interpreting them too.And in Thailand this I'm afraid means a few gallons of undiluted hypocrisy.

[Plus]

You mean to say that proponents of the theory don't practice it themselves?

You'd need to show some examples.

I know lots of people with the basically the same, "sufficiency" mindset - don't flash your money, buy only what's necessary, but at the same time don't be cheap and be prepared to pay for good quality. Avoid being emotional and greedy, think things over in a relaxed state of mind.

This mindset is quite popular, and is in line with Thai "culture" and buddhist principles.

[jayboy]

You mean to say that proponents of the theory don't practice it themselves?

Bang on the money

[Plus]

Is there ANY basis to this allegation? Any specifics?

I told you I know plenty of people who restrain their spending, I don't see any reason to call them hypocrites. I don't know any proponents of sufficiency theory who live "double" lives.

[jayboy]

Is there ANY basis to this allegation? Any specifics?

I told you I know plenty of people who restrain their spending, I don't see any reason to call them hypocrites. I don't know any proponents of sufficiency theory who live "double" lives.

I also know plenty of ordinary people who try to comply.I'm not talking about them but the country's political, business and social leadership who tend to mouth support for the philosophy, often for self serving reasons, but continue to live extravagant and wasteful lifestyles.

[Thai at Heart]

It would be interesting to know which brand of car the PM owns and drives. Imported with extreme taxes included or made in Thailand showing a little sufficiency and a modicum of support for Thai industry?

Is he walking the walk?

[samgrowth]

It would be interesting to know which brand of car the PM owns and drives. Imported with extreme taxes included or made in Thailand showing a little sufficiency and a modicum of support for Thai industry?

Is he walking the walk?

I don't know. But he keeps flying to the UK. Good thing Mark has 2 passport (like Giles). It would be handy one day if he has to get away quick (like Giles).

[Mario2008]

Members are adviced to keep His Majesty the King out of he discussion. Post with reference to the King deleted.

[jayboy]

It would be interesting to know which brand of car the PM owns and drives. Imported with extreme taxes included or made in Thailand showing a little sufficiency and a modicum of support for Thai industry?

Is he walking the walk?

I don't know. But he keeps flying to the UK. Good thing Mark has 2 passport (like Giles). It would be handy one day if he has to get away quick (like Giles).

Actually Abhisit is a rather poor target.His lifestyle is comparitively rather austere (as one would expect from a highly educated family with a strong tradition of public service) and I don't see any hypocrisy there at all.His Finance Minister is a flashier character -though oddly coming from a similar background to Abhisit - (he spent rather vulgarly silly sums on Hermes china I note:doesn't he know that a gentleman never buys his own china of furniture?): still it's his right to revel in his wealth which was made honestly.What's more he doesn't bleat on about self sufficiency to those much less advantaged than himself.

[Thai at Heart]

It would be interesting to know which brand of car the PM owns and drives. Imported with extreme taxes included or made in Thailand showing a little sufficiency and a modicum of support for Thai industry?

Is he walking the walk?

I don't know. But he keeps flying to the UK. Good thing Mark has 2 passport (like Giles). It would be handy one day if he has to get away quick (like Giles).

Actually Abhisit is a rather poor target.His lifestyle is comparitively rather austere (as one would expect from a highly educated family with a strong tradition of public service) and I don't see any hypocrisy there at all.His Finance Minister is a flashier character -though oddly coming from a similar background to Abhisit - (he spent rather vulgarly silly sums on Hermes china I note:doesn't he know that a gentleman never buys his own china of furniture?): still it's his right to revel in his wealth which was made honestly.What's more he doesn't bleat on about self sufficiency to those much less advantaged than himself.

I don't think we can possibly know how austere Abhisit is in his private life. However, he is the man signing the cheques for this program. It would be very interesting if anyone knows of anything he has done in his private life to follow it. Politics is a marketing game. Is he doing anything in his private life to follow this "sufficiency" economy.

I only mention cars for the simple fact that I reckon anyone who is willing to pay 3 or 4 times over the odds for a Merc doesn't understand the value of money and is in no way following the sufficiency concept. Don't get me started on 2.5mn baht for a Mini. Buy a Camry and have done with it.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[animatic]

It would be interesting to know which brand of car the PM owns and drives. Imported with extreme taxes included or made in Thailand showing a little sufficiency and a modicum of support for Thai industry?

Is he walking the walk?

I don't know. But he keeps flying to the UK. Good thing Mark has 2 passport (like Giles). It would be handy one day if he has to get away quick (like Giles).

Actually Abhisit is a rather poor target.His lifestyle is comparitively rather austere (as one would expect from a highly educated family with a strong tradition of public service) and I don't see any hypocrisy there at all.His Finance Minister is a flashier character -though oddly coming from a similar background to Abhisit - (he spent rather vulgarly silly sums on Hermes china I note:doesn't he know that a gentleman never buys his own china of furniture?): still it's his right to revel in his wealth which was made honestly.What's more he doesn't bleat on about self sufficiency to those much less advantaged than himself.

The wife outfits the house with china certainly,

but the husband outfits the investment portfolio with fine china too.

[Plus]

I don't know what Abhisit drives. The opposition was going to grill him for undeclared Honda CRV. Locally built.

A couple of years ago TRT/PPP or whatever they were called that time tried to get Apirak, then Bangkok governor, for illegally giving his wife Nissan Tiana, Camry equivalent.

For a long long time Japanese had no equivalents to Benz or BMW so it grew into a status symbol. However, local models of Benz are severly underpowered by western standards, they are not "flashy" in the same way they are in the West.

Now that Japs raised their game, my bosses wife switched from Jaguar to Camry, another big woman switched from Benz to Mitsubishi Spacewagon, and her husband, a retired admiral, drives Honda Jazz on LPG.

Also don't forget that personal posessions and things like houses cost relatively little for top performing guys like Korn, or big business owners like Thaksin. For Thaksin the pride of owning the biggest commercial satelliet in the world was his test of "sufficiency", I suppose.

Anyway, modesty goes a long long way in Thai society, and even the "flashy" types have learnt their lessons in 1997 crisis, too. Thailand hasn't really seen an equivalent of a dotcom boom since then, only a couple of years of stock exchange run that affected only a few thousand people, not the "old money".

I haven't seen or hear of ONE hypocritical proponent of suffiency economy.

>>>

Now would be a good time to give some examples, btw.

[samgrowth]

I don't know what Abhisit drives. The opposition was going to grill him for undeclared Honda CRV. Locally built.

A couple of years ago TRT/PPP or whatever they were called that time tried to get Apirak, then Bangkok governor, for illegally giving his wife Nissan Tiana, Camry equivalent.

Have not heard about Apirak for so long. Is he in jail already? In relation to payment for some over-priced fire truck or something like that.

[chrislarsson]

After reading more about this "self-sufficiency economy" model, it doesn't sound like a very good idea.

Firstly, it seems to be mainly about keeping poor people in place, which means to keep them poor, and nothing about rich people splashing their money on E-Class Mercedes' and Black Label Whiskeys. Consumption that certainly make a country less self-sufficient.

Secondly, it doesn't target the problems Thailand is facing today. Thailand is far too export dependent. One of the reasons for this is that domestic demand is low, and this in turn, is because too large of the pie ends up in a few hands. If a country wants to be self-sufficient it has to start consuming its own goods. I'm not saying it should not export, but when the size of export is 2/3 of the GDP, it's simply too much, and it makes it very volatile to downturns in the world economy.

There is a reason China is doing everything it can to increase domestic demand, and the reason for this is to make China more self-sufficient.

Thirdly, the argument that growing your own food will create increased security is nonsense. If this was the case, people in countries like Burma, Laos, North Korea, and countries in Africa would be the ones best off. That is certainly not the case. Food production is secured by using technology. And this "self-sufficiency" model seems to be against investments in technology , unless you have the money in the pocket, which poor people obviously don't have.

I think you may be confused between food security and financial security. If a rich state, like Singapore or UK, with good financial security (although right now with the banking situation even that is in doubt), does not grow any of its own food either as a nation or at an individual level, but relies on buying it, then you could say they are rather food insecure. In times of trouble or crisis, (whether natural disaster or something like the fuel blockade), then it doesn't matter how much money one has in the bank, if there is no food in your larder or in the shops, then you are going to go hungry. While the person who grows their own food, stores it sensibly for a rainy day and thinks about tomorrow is going to eat (no matter how much money they possess). That is food security, and believe it or not, most people in Laos are more food secure than in a rich country like Britain, purely because they can grow and gather their own. You may not know it, but during the fuel blockade in 2000, many supermarkets across UK were in hours of running out of food. Another day and there would have been a lot of hungry people with money in their pockets but no food to buy.

"Resilience" is a word you will be hearing a lot more about in coming years with regards to food security.

I'm not confused at all. This a completely different issue. If Thailand is self-sufficient depends on how much food is produced, it has nothing to do with how many people are working in food production.

With the same productivity as countries in the West, Thailand could produce the same amount of food with only 5% of the workforce, instead of close to 50% currently. But this can only be achieved through investments in technology, education, and better organization.

[chrislarsson]

I haven't seen or hear of ONE hypocritical proponent of suffiency economy.

>>>

Now would be a good time to give some examples, btw.

The problem is that it is hypocritical be default when it is being targeted towards poor people. Basically you are telling the poorest people in Thailand that they should not ask for more.

Great income inequality will always be a cause for social unrest in the long-term, and it's obvious now that Thailand is no exception. What Thailand needs are policies to narrow the income gap, not education for poor people telling them to be happy with nothing.

[DaleBlue]

Sufficiency Economic? Ask giles about it. He has an answer.

[fullwhenempty]

You can't blame politicians for playing politics, nor for showing a healthy dose of hypocrisy. Only the corrupt and immoral get to the top. Lying and acting are pre-requisites for the political class. What matters to all of us, is that people are able to survive a crisis, with the minimum upheaval both on a personal and national level.

The Capitalist consumptive model is unsustainable. The debt-based fiat money system is also unsustainable. At some point they will collapse, not least driven by the insane greed of the Wall St and banking criminal syndicates. You can't be having the nation's wealth transferred to China in place of cheap plastic goods ad infinitum, without producing anything of value yourself, as the Western World is discovering. Farmers will be the only ones who won't starve when all the supermarket shelves are empty. That is, if Monsanto and their like, will let them have the seed. Local bio-diversity is being wiped out and soils are being de-natured by artificial chemicals and the 'competition is a sin' corporate ethic. Control of the World's food supply is just one aspect of the policy of 'Full Spectrum Dominance' being conducted by Multi-National corporations and the self-appointed Masters of The Universe.

Unless sustainable models are supported, people are going to starve. It doesn't take a bent politician to point this out. We had a taste of what's possible when the boom and bust merchants jacked up the price of oil so they could unload their stock onto 'bagholders'. Nations came close to starvation as food prices shot up.

I'm all for the Royals supporting self-sufficiency or sustainability or self-restraint in any form. It's not some wishy-washy philosophical concept but a matter of survival. If there is a war between the racketeers running the White House and the rest of humanity then food, gas, electricity will be in short supply and the shelves could clear overnight. One would hope that Thailand is better placed than others with it's reduced exposure to toxic derivatives and it's ability to produce food. However, if hoarding were to occur, people in the cities could starve.

Perhaps the King knows something the rest of us don't.

[fullwhenempty]

Deleted. Duplicate post.

Edited April 4, 2009 by fullwhenempty

[kurtgruen]

To me, being Self-Sufficient is important. There are millions of people in this country, who are haunted by loan sharks on a daily basis. (20% interest per month, in most cases). Money that most of them can never pay back completely. Why, because they are buying on credit.

Almost every little hut in Issan and elsewhere in Thailand, has a TV with images of wealth bombarding it's watchers. Now they all want, what (they think) everyone in the West has.

I think one of the biggest problem to attack in Thailand, before the Suffiency Economy can work, is the money lenders. This can be done in several parts....

1. Teach people to live within their means and not borrow money

2. Have a major crackdown on money lenders

3. Help the poor, to initially get back on their feet and out of the endless cycle of borrowing and owing

4. Have efficient government programs for distaster relief, droughts, etc., protecting the hard working farmers.

[Minus]

Almost every little hut in Issan and elsewhere in Thailand, has a TV with images of wealth bombarding it's watchers. Now they all want, what (they think) everyone in the West has.

Spot on Buddy. That's precisely why the Thai system is doomed.

[animatic]

That and the kow tow culture, the combination breeds envy of a high order.

The loan sharks are the third element to the slippery slope.

I have an acquaintance, he moved to Issan with the lady

built a little shop and fixed the parents house the usual.

But his income was killed by a bad UK partner, their joint rental property got foreclosed,

and he hit the lao kao for a spell.

He came up for air to find that his lady

listened to some 'midnight ravings' of his about getting the building back

and making cash again. She took it on herself to take 800,000 in loans from the sharks.

Never told him till too late.

He came out of that nose dive to find her neck deep in debt.

Now she thinks to take a "Massage job in Dubai" believing this is

ACTUALLY massage and not indentured servitude.

But the loan sharks are looking at 80 year old mama's land

and house and such and so she's back to the wall.

And ALSO looking at the farhang as the money tree,

so leaning harder thinking he has something stashed.

All because of HER wanting to Keep Up with the Jones in Issanese,

and a scummy bloke in the UK who absconded with the rent,

never paying the taxes, nor mortgage for months till the bank

took the place, and screwing his partner of everything

AND his credit rating...

Two different legalities and cultures,

but loans outstanding can nail ya big time.

Edited April 5, 2009 by animatic

[Koo82]

Great income inequality will always be a cause for social unrest in the long-term, and it's obvious now that Thailand is no exception. What Thailand needs are policies to narrow the income gap, not education for poor people telling them to be happy with nothing.

They wear a watch costs 1 million Baht and teach the poor about sufficiency economy

Their main job now is to slow down or stop the reds from coming to Bangkok for the big red protest on the 8th April.

[Koo82]

These 2 young boys can't be able to develop Thailand, no matter what project they launch. They just don't have the ability.

[Koo82]

I think they will change the logo of NBT.

They changed from red to purple (not blue like you see in the photo). Here in Thailand purple is gay color.

This change costs about 50,000 to 100,000 Baht. How can they still have face to teach poor people sufficient economy?

[Pierrot]

To me, being Self-Sufficient is important. There are millions of people in this country, who are haunted by loan sharks on a daily basis. (20% interest per month, in most cases). Money that most of them can never pay back completely. Why, because they are buying on credit.

Almost every little hut in Issan and elsewhere in Thailand, has a TV with images of wealth bombarding it's watchers. Now they all want, what (they think) everyone in the West has.

I think one of the biggest problem to attack in Thailand, before the Suffiency Economy can work, is the money lenders. This can be done in several parts....

1. Teach people to live within their means and not borrow money

2. Have a major crackdown on money lenders

3. Help the poor, to initially get back on their feet and out of the endless cycle of borrowing and owing

4. Have efficient government programs for distaster relief, droughts, etc., protecting the hard working farmers.

Most people would't be able (me included) to buy a house, a car or start a business without borrowing money. The problem is not to borrow money but to borrow in a responsible manner.