Meals On Wheels4u

[buzzer101]

I thought I'd post this as it may be of interest to others.

We received a few calls from some of the restaurant which we deliver from telling us someone had been in to see them to give leaflets and that they were starting a new food delivery service.

Having been given the name I looked at their website and to my horror noticed that it looked exactly the same as our site but with a different name. When I say same it was the same wording on the Homepage but changed very slightly. The Restaurant Index was identical, listing all the restaurants we deliver from and also the Minmart. Looking into a bit further we noticed even our food codes had been copied.

The restaurants that called me mentioned that they recognised one of the guys who had been in to see them and was in fact one of our drivers (some of you may have seen him, the old dark skined chap).

This really cheesed us of, as we are always very good to our staff and always happy to help them with anything they require.

Also what was most annoying is the fact we spent long days and late nights visiting all the restaurants, arranging meeting with them to discuss our business together, gathering the menus then manually imputing all the data which took forever and to find out someone had just pressed a few buttons and copied it all within a few minutes was URGH!!!

After talking to the local police who looked at both sites and who were very helpful, they called the other guys in and demanded that they shut down their site instantly as it was a blatant rip off from our site and our site is copyright protected.

They are now going out to the restaurants and doing the legwork which we did initially.

The restaurants we deliver from have been very loyal and said that they do not feel there is a need for another delivery service and that they are not interested in doing business with people that stole all our data.

We would also like to take this opportunity to thank all our customers for their support and suggestions.

We are still trying to get descriptions from some of the Asian restaurants and will load them on as soon as we are given them.

We also have a few additions as requested by our customers to our restaurant listing including Texas BQQ, Joe Jets, Girasole and El Diablo's.

Our Mini Mart is always expanding and now we have a larger range of product including Soft Drinks, Juices, Milk, Beers, and a fine selection of Wines (supplied by Darling Wine Bar), Phonecards, and many other products.

Cheers all.

[lukeskywalker]

Texas BBQ? Is this new? Where is it located?

[StevieH]

well they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery eh michael?

it's nice that your restaurants are remaining loyal and supporting you, am sure your happy customers will do likewise.

[patklang]

Thats typical of the way thais look at business.

[Nienke]

Really sorry that this happened to you.

However, they may be able to copy your site, but what they can't copy is your excellent service and hard work.

[Drew Aitch]

Really sorry that this happened to you.

However, they may be able to copy your site, but what they can't copy is your excellent service and hard work.

Any business is only as good as its people. Sure, anyone can get a website cloned, but service? Well, that's another matter!

I don't think there's really anything wrong with an ex employee setting up a rival business after learning the ropes on the job. After all, nicking ideas from a successful model is the cut throat nature of business anywhere in the world. A bit of healthy competition not only improves services and products (from those up to the challenge), but it keeps prices reasonable for consumers.

All that said, nicking a web site and entire customer base without building a set-up which is unique to the new venture, simply shows a lack of entrepreneurial flair, and is sure to fail, or at the very best, struggle to tick over.

If anything, it will be good to have a comparison as everyone can now rave about Meals On Wheels4u compared to its Mickey Mouse rival. Unless they excel and become the top dog of course!

Aitch

[Ulysses G.]

I have a few buddies with restaurants and they have no intention of changing delivery services.

[jackr]

Also be sure to also submit the dodgy site's URL to Google Report , telling them they've plagerised your site/pages. While G can't shut sites down, they can dilute inbound links and Page Rank so in theory it won't get very far in the SERPs.

You could also do a WHOIS search to see who they're hosting with and notify them that they've copied your site.

If you really want to screw them there's the all out denial of service attack

Whatever, though, don't take the cops' word for it that they'll make them shut it down.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Bang out of order. I shall continue to support you though. Lazy me.

[Greenside]

After talking to the local police who looked at both sites and who were very helpful, they called the other guys in and demanded that they shut down their site instantly as it was a blatant rip off from our site and our site is copyright protected.

They are now going out to the restaurants and doing the legwork which we did initially.

Firstly, I've been the victim of plagiarists on more than one occasion and although it's surprising to find the field to yourself if you have a successful enterprise running, to have an ex-employee stealing your data, copy and suppliers is particularly annoying, especially if you've taken the trouble to treat them well.

Drew H said he didn't think there was anything wrong with an employee learning the ropes with you and setting up in competition. I couldn't agree less. It's amoral, lazy, dishonest and generally the resort of those with insufficient imagination or education to do anything original for themselves. There's nothing wrong with some fair competition but this doesn't qualify. I doubt it would hold water here but most companies have a non-compete clause in their terms of employment which at least stops an employee starting up in competition in the same area - who cares if they go off to work the field in Mae Rim, after all. Even if only for effect, I'd have new staff sign an agreement - who knows it might scare someone else from trying in the future.

I'm amazed (and pleased to hear) that you managed to get the police to be involved in this at all. Did you have to do anything to attract their attention, so to speak?

Your suppliers are the key to winning out in this situation - they should certainly appreciate that the customer base is unlikely to support two businesses and in their own interest I hope they will either refuse to deal with the rip off merchant or at least keep him waiting rather longer than usual for his orders.

Good luck sorting it out.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Greenside

[madjbs]

What do you mean sign an agreement? He is an EX employee, any contract is void after the worker is no longer employed.

You might think it's lazy etc.... to do what has been done, but, that is business. If you don't protect your market well enough this kind of thing WILL happen and of course it will be annoying when it does. Perfectly natural.

I don't know what prices meals on wheels are charging, but if they are not marking up dishes, I fail to see how a new setup could work. If on the other hand, they have been taking advantage of their current monopoly and marking up the price of dishes, then the new service has a real chance of working. Look at foodbyphone and ChefsXP to see that in action.

Edited March 27, 2009 by madjbs

[madjbs]

That is NOT business, it is theft

If they copy the website word for word then yes.

However, an ex employee setting up on their own, using their experience gained to help set up their own business, NO!

How do you think industries advance in the world?

Edited March 27, 2009 by madjbs

[buzzer101]

Hi guys,

Texas BBQ is opposite Mike's Burger and is a Arby style dinner.

Mr H and Nienke

Thank you for the compliments.

Drew Aitch

I do agree that competition is healthy but the way they went about it is bang out of order (even having the same food codes proves it was a complete rip off).

The site and flyers are the same colours as ours, the wording very similar and also a similar logo.

We were just really upset as we did put in a lot of time, effort and cash to build the website and business from scratch.

Greenside

Thanks for the idea of an agreement, I'll draw up something which I hope should at least help them think twice.

The worst part of it was that the guy was still employed by us up until last weekend which is when we found out that our "still employed" staff member had been approching the restaurants and that is when we fired him. All the while he was pretending to be this nice hard working guy and when we did confront him he passed the butt onto his partner.

The police were very helpful (I think having my Thai wife doing most of the talking made a difference).

They looked at both the sites, asked us to go and print a copy of each sites Homepage, a list of 10 different restaurants etc and told us to come back in a few hours. When we did they compared the printouts and started laughing when they saw the resemblence as I say even the codes were identical.

I gave them the contact details from Whois website that I had printed, they called the number got them to come straight in asked us what we would like to do.

All we wanted was for them to do it the fair way which is how we did it so, we asked for the site to be closed down until they managed to do the work themselves.

Madjbs,

We donot mark up our menus. They are exactly the same as you would expect to pay at the restaurants. We do however have a few restaurants who charge an additional 5-10 bht for packaging for take out food which we then pass on.

Also as Vibe pointed out we feel it as theft not legitimate competition.

Once again thank you to all our customers for your support and I'm sure your loyalty will remain unchanged.

[jackr]

That is NOT business, it is theft

If they copy the website word for word then yes.

However, an ex employee setting up on their own, using their experience gained to help set up their own business, NO!

How do you think industries advance in the world?

How about reading the op and focusing on the issue at hand?

[tigerbeer]

Their phone numbers were listed in the WHOIS database of their website?? Thought most people used discreet services of the web hosting provider.

anyways sorry to hear about this buzzer. Have their website shut down and continue with your daily stuff. You have many people's support in this and your business so wish you all the best.

TB..

[FarangCravings]

Couple of points

1.) The police have no authority to order anyone to shut donw a website its a civil matter and if the copiers knew anything they would know that

2.) Unless a site is copied verbatem and your logo used then just because they use the same template and colors that does not constitute copying

3.) So are you saying that the restaurants will refuse calls for takeaway food and being picked up by another deliverer Hmmmm they must be making boatloads of money to be able to refuse orders not coming in from meals on wheels

4.) If the copyier whom i presume is Thai had any brains he would start a Thai version of Meals on wheels and deliver to the thai people who outnumber the farang market by miles. hel_l you could even expand your business to include this hel_l I might even do it.

I have had multiple business models that people try to copy and you know what I could not care less they see a good idea and think they can do it 99.999% of the time they cannot.

[damian5000]

After talking to the local police who looked at both sites and who were very helpful, they called the other guys in and demanded that they shut down their site instantly as it was a blatant rip off from our site and our site is copyright protected.

They are now going out to the restaurants and doing the legwork which we did initially.

Firstly, I've been the victim of plagiarists on more than one occasion and although it's surprising to find the field to yourself if you have a successful enterprise running, to have an ex-employee stealing your data, copy and suppliers is particularly annoying, especially if you've taken the trouble to treat them well.

Drew H said he didn't think there was anything wrong with an employee learning the ropes with you and setting up in competition. I couldn't agree less. It's amoral, lazy, dishonest and generally the resort of those with insufficient imagination or education to do anything original for themselves. There's nothing wrong with some fair competition but this doesn't qualify. I doubt it would hold water here but most companies have a non-compete clause in their terms of employment which at least stops an employee starting up in competition in the same area - who cares if they go off to work the field in Mae Rim, after all. Even if only for effect, I'd have new staff sign an agreement - who knows it might scare someone else from trying in the future.

I'm amazed (and pleased to hear) that you managed to get the police to be involved in this at all. Did you have to do anything to attract their attention, so to speak?

Your suppliers are the key to winning out in this situation - they should certainly appreciate that the customer base is unlikely to support two businesses and in their own interest I hope they will either refuse to deal with the rip off merchant or at least keep him waiting rather longer than usual for his orders.

Good luck sorting it out.

Yea, teach someone how to do something and then expect them not to try and grow out and do it themselves instead of making crap wages working for someone else.

You're joking right? That is the nature of business. What happened here with the stealing of the website was out of line, but hiring employees and expecting them not to make the best money they can from their knowledge?...To not take what they've learned and start their own business (or move to Mae Rim to do it?).

I think by having them sign some contract will have them thinking more than ever about learning and emulating. Here, sign this, it says you're not going to do what I do. Well, shit what you're doing must be pretty dam_n good if they're having me sign this contract.

Don't be greedy... We've seen what happens recently to farang business owners movin' in on Thai money...and it's all their money.

Forget the contracts...Just do your thing and keep on top of things solidifying relations with your partners and you'll be fine.... Someone already said that most of the people that try to emulate you will fail, you've got an additional benefit of already having an excellent grip.

[Greenside]

Yea, teach someone how to do something and then expect them not to try and grow out and do it themselves instead of making crap wages working for someone else.

You're joking right? That is the nature of business. What happened here with the stealing of the website was out of line, but hiring employees and expecting them not to make the best money they can from their knowledge?...To not take what they've learned and start their own business (or move to Mae Rim to do it?).

No, I'm not joking. If you treat your staff well and pay them fairly it's been my experience that by and large you'll get the same consideration in return. People running decent businesses (start-ups in particular) usually work orders of magnitude harder than their employees and that's without the investment and risks that go with the territory. That's not to say that this kind of thing won't ever happen but it certainly helps and since anyone hiring staff in Europe or the US has to have a contract of employment, taking steps to protect your investment (and other employees, incidentally) by including a reasonable non-compete clause is standard practice. The yardstick, by the way, is "reasonable" - of course you'd expect them to gain from the experience of working for/with you and starting their own thing is one of the possibilities. Isn't it simply prudent to have them to agree not to set up shop next door on the Monday after they walk out of your office, or worse still while they're still cashing your pay cheque as in this case?

I think by having them sign some contract will have them thinking more than ever about learning and emulating. Here, sign this, it says you're not going to do what I do. Well, shit what you're doing must be pretty dam_n good if they're having me sign this contract.

What a load of nonsense. Firstly, it's not some isolated bit of paper you thrust under someone's nose as you hand them a pen, it's simply a paragraph in the same document that tells them that you'll pay their wages regularly and give the right amount of tax to the authorities on their behalf in return for them coming to work at certain times. Secondly, people being offered a job will agree to most reasonable terms and making it harder for them to steal your business techniques or customers is entirely reasonable. If someone says they're not prepared to accept it then they don't get hired and cease to be a potential problem.

All that said, I don't know how Thai law treats this issue but I believe just the fact that the employee can be shown to have agreed to one thing and done another would be somewhat of a loss of face and so deter most people.

Don't be greedy... We've seen what happens recently to farang business owners movin' in on Thai money...and it's all their money.

I don't know what you're referring to but this is a good business model for an expat and not the kind of enterprise so likely to have got off the ground as a Thai start-up. It's not taking anything away from anyone, that is unless you belong to the "success is a finite commodity - he's successful so he's taking away some of mine" school of thought. Sadly, this is rather common in Asia and more depressingly in the UK too! Anyway, it's not a question of being greedy - he just wants to do his best to make something from the work he's put in and who can blame him?

Edited March 27, 2009 by Greenside

[gymshark]

So you got some competition, you'll just have to work hard to be better. Most of us have competition in what we do, I believe I read somewhere that it is healthy.

[damian5000]

Yea, teach someone how to do something and then expect them not to try and grow out and do it themselves instead of making crap wages working for someone else.

You're joking right? That is the nature of business. What happened here with the stealing of the website was out of line, but hiring employees and expecting them not to make the best money they can from their knowledge?...To not take what they've learned and start their own business (or move to Mae Rim to do it?).

No, I'm not joking. If you treat your staff well and pay them fairly it's been my experience that by and large you'll get the same consideration in return. People running decent businesses (start-ups in particular) usually work orders of magnitude harder than their employees and that's without the investment and risks that go with the territory. That's not to say that this kind of thing won't ever happen but it certainly helps and since anyone hiring staff in Europe or the US has to have a contract of employment, taking steps to protect your investment (and other employees, incidentally) by including a reasonable non-compete clause is standard practice. The yardstick, by the way, is "reasonable" - of course you'd expect them to gain from the experience of working for/with you and starting their own thing is one of the possibilities. Isn't it simply prudent to have them to agree not to set up shop next door on the Monday after they walk out of your office, or worse still while they're still cashing your pay cheque as in this case?

I think by having them sign some contract will have them thinking more than ever about learning and emulating. Here, sign this, it says you're not going to do what I do. Well, shit what you're doing must be pretty dam_n good if they're having me sign this contract.

What a load of nonsense. Firstly, it's not some isolated bit of paper you thrust under someone's nose as you hand them a pen, it's simply a paragraph in the same document that tells them that you'll pay their wages regularly and give the right amount of tax to the authorities on their behalf in return for them coming to work at certain times. Secondly, people being offered a job will agree to most reasonable terms and making it harder for them to steal your business techniques or customers is entirely reasonable. If someone says they're not prepared to accept it then they don't get hired and cease to be a potential problem.

All that said, I don't know how Thai law treats this issue but I believe just the fact that the employee can be shown to have agreed to one thing and done another would be somewhat of a loss of face and so deter most people.

Don't be greedy... We've seen what happens recently to farang business owners movin' in on Thai money...and it's all their money.

I don't know what you're referring to but this is a good business model for an expat and not the kind of enterprise so likely to have got off the ground as a Thai start-up. It's not taking anything away from anyone, that is unless you belong to the "success is a finite commodity - he's successful so he's taking away some of mine" school of thought. Sadly, this is rather common in Asia and more depressingly in the UK too! Anyway, it's not a question of being greedy - he just wants to do his best to make something from the work he's put in and who can blame him?

I still think you must be joking about thinking people shouldn't learn from where they work, and then go and and try to start their own businesses if they want. I guess, make a no next door clause... but thinking you have right to the city and that none of your employees should compete with you at some point in the future? Get off your rocker.

I don't think the OP is being greedy in the least BTW. Just stay away from the contracts... It's a bad idea. This isn't the US or Europe.

[Drew Aitch]

So you got some competition, you'll just have to work hard to be better. Most of us have competition in what we do, I believe I read somewhere that it is healthy.

But its not competition, its theft, no two ways about it. No doubt that they will have to work hard, as thats what they already had to do to get it established. Competition that is legit is healthy, but thats not what is happening here.

Agreed! Nothing wrong with taking your skills and or experience and setting up a rival company based on what you've learnt, but to take with you a complete business model and clone the whole operation deserves a slap!

I've bumped into a lot of unsavoury characters since i've been in Thailand, and believe it or not, but the biggest scum bags in the business world are, in my experience, other foreigners. I'm talking major scamming here and not a bit of petty pilfering from the locals.

Like i said earlier, a business is only as good as its people, and so whether this new outfit offer the same, similar, or better service than the original operation, remains to be seen.

I've never in my life seem so many businesses open and close as i have in CM. It seems that the locals here give 3 months, 4 at the outset, for a new venture to make a profit, and it it fails, the doors get firmly shut. Yesterday's hairdressers is today's internet cafe, is tomorrows coffee shop... Whatever happened to the long term vision? It used to be the case in the business world that many a new project was expected to run at a loss in the first year (or 2)

So, Mr. Meals On Wheels4u, it's my guess that you will know whether you have any serious competition from these scoundrels by July at the latest

Aitch

Edited March 27, 2009 by Drew Aitch

[danish84]

Don't worry Mike, you still have undying support from Hillside 4!! (Just as soon as I get back to CM)

/Morten

[Goshawk]

So you got some competition, you'll just have to work hard to be better. Most of us have competition in what we do, I believe I read somewhere that it is healthy.

agreed.. business is (ruthless) business. No point crying about the 'hows' & 'whys', just get on with it (yours) and give the other fella hel_l..

[65Craig]

Maybe it's just me, but isn't your name and concept Ripped from the "Non-Profit" Meals On Wheels organization that is all over America, UK, Australia and Canada? Also, your logo is very similar to some of the other Meals On Wheels logos. And you are complaining that someone stole your idea.

Anyway, welcome to Thailand, where ideas, copyrights, etc., are stolen or infringed on every second without any credit given or apparent government action taken against the offenders. What shocks me the most though, is the the fact you managed to get the police involved ($$$?). Normally, I would feel very sorry for you if your idea and name were original, but I just don't see it that way.

Good luck to you, and may the guy who offers the most efficient and reasonably priced delivery service be the winner in all of this.

[Greenside]

Nowhere has he claimed his business is original and like most others it certainly isn't. Most come from an existing idea adapted or improved to meet the needs of a different market or indeed the same market that may have moved on in its requirements and is no longer being served by a company grown complacent. His OP was to air his annoyance that an employee had simply lifted the results of his hard word and hung up his own open sign next door. There surely can't be doubt in anyone's mind that that is an underhand and fundamentally dishonest thing to do.

[WaiWai]

There surely can't be doubt in anyone's mind that that is an underhand and fundamentally dishonest thing to do.

Indeed not.

I strongly doubt the copycats can succeed, for a number of reasons. The sense of betrayal would probably be the worst aspect. However, that is something to move past and even have a laugh about.

I am thinking some foreigners must be involved; it would otherwise be very difficult to replicate the service.

Keep us posted, MoW.

[Rtwo]

It would seem that you’ve encountered one of the less attractive aspects of Thailand, the love of copying. I’m aware that what I may write will almost certainly raise howls of protest but I long ago came to the conclusion that this is a country lacking in originality and full of pirates. Indeed when I myself complained to a Thai friend about a similar thing happening to my business I was told that if I wasn’t prepared to accept that that’s how things work here then it would be best if I found somewhere else to get my products made and I’m sure they were right. I remember talking to a woman who assured me that my designs were “safe with her”, whilst she was standing in front of a pile of one of those very same items that she’s just finished making for somebody else. The brazenness of the woman stunned me so much I didn’t say a thing! I’ve had websites copied completely, logos, pictures, code (stopping that by the way, you’ll find is one of the easier things). People here have and continue to make millions of Baht out of my intellectual property and I can do nothing about it, I even get e-mails from company’s trying to sell me my own designs and one has even named themselves after one of my products! Here in Thailand you can do absolutely nothing, indeed if you make a fuss people think it’s you who’s being difficult, not the other way round. From the Beer Chang/Carlsberg fiasco to the Pizza Hut/Pizza Company the place has been witness to some of the most amazing acts of plagiarism that you can imagine. Ask yourself honestly, just how many people in this country run illegal computer software, how many people buy pirated DVD’s or wear fake branded clothing? And virtually nothing ever happens does it?

The essence of what I write is simply this, yes what they did was wrong, both legally and morally but Thailand whether you like it or not is not a place where either is considered particularly important and this attitude is becoming more commonplace throughout he world as evidenced by some of the replies that have been posted by non Thais; people no longer see theft as being particularly immoral and bearing in mind what’s happened recently to the world economy who can blame them. You ultimately have a number of options, you can; put up and shut up; you can attack, both legally and illegally or you can just say, oh sod it and move back to somewhere where you feel more comfortable but whatever happens you won’t change Thailand or the Thai’s. Don’t let it get you down but you must come to terms with the fact that as another member wrote, Thailand is not the US or Europe. Here’s wishing you the very best of luck.

[Thakkar]

It would seem that you’ve encountered one of the less attractive aspects of Thailand, the love of copying. I’m aware that what I may write will almost certainly raise howls of protest but I long ago came to the conclusion that this is a country lacking in originality and full of pirates. Indeed when I myself complained to a Thai friend about a similar thing happening to my business I was told that if I wasn’t prepared to accept that that’s how things work here then it would be best if I found somewhere else to get my products made and I’m sure they were right. I remember talking to a woman who assured me that my designs were “safe with her”, whilst she was standing in front of a pile of one of those very same items that she’s just finished making for somebody else. The brazenness of the woman stunned me so much I didn’t say a thing! I’ve had websites copied completely, logos, pictures, code (stopping that by the way, you’ll find is one of the easier things). People here have and continue to make millions of Baht out of my intellectual property and I can do nothing about it, I even get e-mails from company’s trying to sell me my own designs and one has even named themselves after one of my products! Here in Thailand you can do absolutely nothing, indeed if you make a fuss people think it’s you who’s being difficult, not the other way round. From the Beer Chang/Carlsberg fiasco to the Pizza Hut/Pizza Company the place has been witness to some of the most amazing acts of plagiarism that you can imagine. Ask yourself honestly, just how many people in this country run illegal computer software, how many people buy pirated DVD’s or wear fake branded clothing? And virtually nothing ever happens does it?

The essence of what I write is simply this, yes what they did was wrong, both legally and morally but Thailand whether you like it or not is not a place where either is considered particularly important and this attitude is becoming more commonplace throughout he world as evidenced by some of the replies that have been posted by non Thais; people no longer see theft as being particularly immoral and bearing in mind what’s happened recently to the world economy who can blame them. You ultimately have a number of options, you can; put up and shut up; you can attack, both legally and illegally or you can just say, oh sod it and move back to somewhere where you feel more comfortable but whatever happens you won’t change Thailand or the Thai’s. Don’t let it get you down but you must come to terms with the fact that as another member wrote, Thailand is not the US or Europe. Here’s wishing you the very best of luck.

That is the best response so far.

I feel for the OP as I've been there (thought not since moving to Thailand).

In the Thai context, I suppose the OP has done all that can or needs to be done. To the OP: Best to get on with what you do best—run your business. The copycat, while undoubtedly a thorn on your side, is unlikely to succeed because he's fundamentally lazy. While he may have saved himself a few steps with his tactic, he only wins if you take your eye off the ball.

Good luck to you.

[meadish_sweetball]

Pizza Hut/Pizza Company

This would be the work of the (officially at least) richest person of Western descent in Thailand, Bill Heinecke, who first introduced the Pizza Hut franchise into Thailand and went on to start Pizza Company...

Getting rich by being a better copycat than the locals?

Would it classify as a case of FIT... Winnie?

I also agree that you probably will retain most of your business if you just stay focused.

[Ajarn]

Don't worry about this guy I think. He is too visible in a limited market to be successful, maybe he should try it out in Chiang Rai or Issan or down south. Plenty of opportunities in other markets I feel. And maybe you can make a deal with him with you as the name owner

Edited March 31, 2009 by Ajarn