Thai Boxing Vs Other Systems

[mc2]

i have a lot of respect for thai boxing but there are two systems that could beat it, boxing and kung <deleted>, all good fighers should be able to get in range.

anyone know if a thai boxing figher of equal size and strengh to a heavyweight boxer could defeat him ? from watching this video i doubt it, i havent seen any thai boxer that comes even close

same here, the thai boxer has no chance when in range, he wont even get a strike. this guy is too quick

[brycat]

I think you're underestimating Muay Thai a bit. I think no martial art is 100% effective against all others, but here's my opinion on your comparison:

Kung <deleted> is a beautiful martial art and is effective in many ways (off-line fighting, increasing reaction speed, agility, inner strength, etc.). When compared to Muay Thai, however, there's one thing it's seriously lacking- actual contact sparring.

I've trained Muay Thai in the past. Any decent school will incorporate sparring into their training regiment. For any serious Muay Thai fighter (i.e. professional fighters) this will not only be part of the training, it will be a key component. Muay Thai fighters are trained to take extreme punishment while fighting back. Kung <deleted> does not incorporate the same training regiment.

Why do I think this key point? I've also watched Kung <deleted> fights. The majority of black belt fighters, not all, will completely revert to awkward semi-Kung <deleted> fighting in competition when being hit/ really attacked. You can have the most beautiful technique in all of Kung <deleted>, but once you get smacked in the face (for real) it puts you off. No question about it. Kung <deleted> training focuses more on technique than real scenario application while being hit. It's a nice concept to think you can train yourself to never get hit, but it's not realistic. I promise in a fight an accomplished Muay Thai fighter will land blows and be able to take them as well while executing Muay Thai. Can the same be said about a Kung <deleted> fighter? Maybe, but highly unlikely.

Now, boxing vs. Muay Thai is a completely different scenario. A boxer can definitely get inside and do some serious damage to a Muay Thai fighter. You see Muay Thai boxers getting hit with punches all the time in fights. Quite frankly, Muay Thai punches are nowhere nearly as powerful, accurate or dangerous as western boxing.

In comparison to what I said about Kung <deleted>, boxing training also focuses as much on sparring, if not more, than Muay Thai. The only problem now is what type of sparring? Punching only. If a boxer faces a Muay Thai guy and they only box, the boxer will kill him. However, if a Muay Thai fighter can use all their weapons (elbows, knees, kicks) in addition to punching, the boxer will have no proper defense for them. Boxers simply don't have to worry about being elbowed, kicked or kneed when they ring fight, so why practice defense against them?

Boxers have phenomenal punches. I love the sport and would never dispute that. Certain components that allow a boxer to punch so well would fall right into a Muay Thai fighter's game plan. Example: I had a friend who was a golden gloves boxer. We were the same height and weight. He had a boxing stance (front and rear feet more closely aligned with shoulder towards the opponent to allow better punching), and I used a Muay Thai stance (shoulders more square with the front knee towards the opponent to allow for quick leg defense).

His jab was nearly a foot longer than mine and he could hit me at will when we boxed. (Of course- he was a golden gloves boxer!) When we sparred using kicks, however, he had no answer for the low kick to the leg. His stance allowed for no defense to the leg kick. I found I could avoid his jab more by throwing leg kicks which usually landed to the rear of his lead leg. A very painful place to receive a round kick. He was a far superior athlete to me but that was enough to upset his game. He just never had to deal with it before.

Muay Thai fighters would incorporate the same philosophy with their other weapons. Inside- use the chinch, knees and elbows. Outside- focus on staying outside the boxer's range with push kicks, round kicks and front check-kicks. Boxers just don't have experience with defense for these attacks. Muay Thai fighters, on the other hand, are just as tough as western boxers and are used to defending against punches as well as kicks, elbows and knees.

Now, I'm not saying that kung <deleted> practitioners or boxers couldn't adapt their game to accommodate a fight with a Muay Thai fighter. Nor am I saying every Muay Thai fighter could beat all boxers and kung <deleted> fighters. In their raw forms, I do think they have holes that the Muay Thai style can exploit. To say that either style could straight out beat Muay Thai is beyond a stretch.

There are many other martial arts that would give all three a run for their money as well. Brazilian jiu-jitsu, wrestling (yes I do consider it a form of martial art), sambo, etc. all focus on grappling which pure strikers have no answer to. Also, MMA is about the most effective, well rounded system that's out there now. It doesn't focus on a single martial art but combines the most effective aspects of all.

Now, I know since I mentioned grappling there's going to be someone on TV who's going to bring up the multiple attacker scenario (e.g. grappling is effective but it's not good against multiple attackers). Let's not go there. Everyone should know the best martial art against multiple attackers is track and field!!!

Edited April 6, 2009 by brycat

[joes125]

i have a lot of respect for thai boxing but there are two systems that could beat it, boxing and kung <deleted>, all good fighers should be able to get in range.

anyone know if a thai boxing figher of equal size and strengh to a heavyweight boxer could defeat him ? from watching this video i doubt it, i havent seen any thai boxer that comes even close

same here, the thai boxer has no chance when in range, he wont even get a strike. this guy is too quick

silly, are you saying anyone who does kung-<deleted> will beat a thai boxer

it is also the person, not the art

muaythai is NOT a martail art, it is a martail sport, anything with rules is not and cannot be considered a martial art

however, because they do alot of contact sparring they will often knock the daylights out of any kung-<deleted> man who many stay copying animals

same like TKD, karate, judo

they were never designed for real fighting

wing-chun is like communism ,looks great on paper, would not last one minute in the UFC

and guess what, never has, know why?

one has to mix the two, a reality based art mixed with contact drills.The best I have seen is kapap ( an israeli art far better than krav-maga and only taught on soi 13)

[oevna]

i have a lot of respect for thai boxing but there are two systems that could beat it, boxing and kung <deleted>, all good fighers should be able to get in range.

...

Why do you believe that? Is this from first-hand experience? Do you train in any martial arts? Specifically, any of the arts that you mentioned? Have you ever been in a fight, even a sport fight, against people who train in those styles?

That video of the Wing Chun practitioners shows them standing next to each other, barely moving around while practicing chi sao (sticky hands) drills. In a fight, people don't just stand close together at that range the whole time waiting to get hit.

[Avante]

Geez..I cant even be bother to find and post the evidence here. Boxing and Chinese kungfu are superior than muay thai ? Hahahahaha u must be living in your dream world.

Give credits to the Muay Thai fighters, mate. They are the only practical race in Asia that dares to fight it out with the world and not go around bragging about it. I never seen a chinese fighter who dare to fight it out hardcore professional farang fighter before. Not even once.

Chinese kungfu is pretty bull. With all that jumping around, fancyful moves. Their striking power doest hold shitz. It looks good and all mystical on screen. But i can ensure you it is all 'propangada' nonsense funded by their _______. The practical force momentum is just not there. One thing shows that they are very good at world advertising and branding. Which lead you to think that kungfu is 'great' and all. Let me give you some history lesson and facts. Some years ago, Somebody sent their top 5 best legendary kungfu master to rajadamnern stadium to compete with the Thais. These are all famous and skilled kungfu fighters not your average joe. They are the best in their field. Some held names like the dragon claw master, the legendary tiger fist etc. Results? They dun last a single round with the Thais. All knocked out flat. And you can bet the place where the losers came from are pretty shocked and sored about it. And right now they are doing some counter propangada just to make everything even out.

As for boxing, It is a very good practical and straight forward attacking system. And i respect it. BUT to say boxing will owned Muay Thai is also downright bull. Boxing has only two attacking fists. While the Art of Muay Thai uses all. 8 striking forceful powerful limbs. 2 attacking hands, 2 attacking elbows, 2 attacking knees, 2 attacking powerful long range kicks. Do the maths buddy. Hand boxing is also incorporated in Muay Thai. MT fighters knows what coming. While the boxer ain no nuts about Muaythai moves at all.

Get some professional Muay Thai fighter the same weight range as Tyson. And that fat buffaloe will get knocked the shitz out in the 1st round. The Thais like all Asians race doest have much fighters in the heavyweight range. Which is understoodable. If they happen to be well-sized. You can bet on my ass these Thais fighters will dominate the fighting world.

[Richb2004v2]

As someone else said I think the ultimate test is to fight in competition like the UFC, although that's not necessarily the best competition. In these kinds of competition many styles of fighting can be used together to overcome the opponent. Although there are restrictions they are fewer than in most fighting competition. I've never seen a Thai in these competitions but there are several Koreans and many Japanese competitors.

I think in terms of stand up fighting the K1 competition should distinguish the best style. Thailand does have an outstanding world class champion in K1, but only one as far as I know, so they still don't dominate that style either.

[mc2]

Geez..I cant even be bother to find and post the evidence here. Boxing and Chinese kungfu are superior than muay thai ? Hahahahaha u must be living in your dream world.

Give credits to the Muay Thai fighters, mate. They are the only practical race in Asia that dares to fight it out with the world and not go around bragging about it. I never seen a chinese fighter who dare to fight it out hardcore professional farang fighter before. Not even once.

Chinese kungfu is pretty bull. With all that jumping around, fancyful moves. Their striking power doest hold shitz. It looks good and all mystical on screen. But i can ensure you it is all 'propangada' nonsense funded by their _______. The practical force momentum is just not there. One thing shows that they are very good at world advertising and branding. Which lead you to think that kungfu is 'great' and all. Let me give you some history lesson and facts. Some years ago, Somebody sent their top 5 best legendary kungfu master to rajadamnern stadium to compete with the Thais. These are all famous and skilled kungfu fighters not your average joe. They are the best in their field. Some held names like the dragon claw master, the legendary tiger fist etc. Results? They dun last a single round with the Thais. All knocked out flat. And you can bet the place where the losers came from are pretty shocked and sored about it. And right now they are doing some counter propangada just to make everything even out.

As for boxing, It is a very good practical and straight forward attacking system. And i respect it. BUT to say boxing will owned Muay Thai is also downright bull. Boxing has only two attacking fists. While the Art of Muay Thai uses all. 8 striking forceful powerful limbs. 2 attacking hands, 2 attacking elbows, 2 attacking knees, 2 attacking powerful long range kicks. Do the maths buddy. Hand boxing is also incorporated in Muay Thai. MT fighters knows what coming. While the boxer ain no nuts about Muaythai moves at all.

Get some professional Muay Thai fighter the same weight range as Tyson. And that fat buffaloe will get knocked the shitz out in the 1st round. The Thais like all Asians race doest have much fighters in the heavyweight range. Which is understoodable. If they happen to be well-sized. You can bet on my ass these Thais fighters will dominate the fighting world.

tyson in his prime would destroy a muay thai of equal size and weight, he was just way too strong and ferocious. plus he could take punishment like very few others.

as for the kung <deleted>, at higher levels they go for critical spots like throat and eye. boxers and muay thai fighters dont get conditioned for that.

its also why you dont see systems willing to fight against it in its true form, because no one is willing to risk have a finger buried into their eyesocket or breathing passage crushed.

so assuming the kung <deleted> guy got the first strike in a critical region, its pretty much game over no matter what system.

[brycat]

tyson in his prime would destroy a muay thai of equal size and weight, he was just way too strong and ferocious. plus he could take punishment like very few others.

You mean like the way Tyson destroyed the supposedly "washed-up" Holyfield in 1996?

Come on, Tyson was a superpower boxer, but he certainly wasn't multidimensional fighter good enough to beat a muay thai fighter of equal size/ skill. You'd be better off choosing a boxer like Ali in his prime. I still don't think Ali would have a chance once he got his legs taken (though he'd fair much better than Tyson).

as for the kung <deleted>, at higher levels they go for critical spots like throat and eye. boxers and muay thai fighters dont get conditioned for that.

There's no conditioning for spots like eyes and throat, only defense. You show me someone who's conditioned their eyes to take punishment, and I'll show you a blind man. You show me someone who's conditioned their throat to defeat a full-fledged punch to the trachaea, and I'll show you a dead man!

These points are not easy to attack especially when you're trying to defend yourself from getting the s__t knocked out of you by a muay thai fighter. BTW, muay thai does practice defense for these attacks. You think it's somehow easier to attack the eyes/ throat than it is to land a punch to the face? You think a muay thai fighter is just going to let it happen? You've got to be kidding me!

so assuming the kung <deleted> guy got the first strike in a critical region, its pretty much game over no matter what system.

Assuming my dad hit your dad first, he could knock him out. Assuming? Come on man, you can never make assumptions when it comes to an actual fight. The degree of randomness is too great. That's why sparring is so important. Nothing is what you want it to be in a real fight. Making assumptions gets your ass knocked out in a real fight!

[Avante]

tyson in his prime would destroy a muay thai of equal size and weight, he was just way too strong and ferocious. plus he could take punishment like very few others.

as for the kung <deleted>, at higher levels they go for critical spots like throat and eye. boxers and muay thai fighters dont get conditioned for that.

its also why you dont see systems willing to fight against it in its true form, because no one is willing to risk have a finger buried into their eyesocket or breathing passage crushed.

so assuming the kung <deleted> guy got the first strike in a critical region, its pretty much game over no matter what system.

No buddy. I could frankly say its is always the other way around. Everytime when other arts challenged Muay Thai fighters. It is always them whining = oh no you cant use elbows strikes when fighting us, oh no you cant use two legs but only one leg rule. oh no you cant use both fists to punch but u can use both of your feet. Oh no you cant use your shloong to block our strikes. Bah bah bah bah etc.

If you want to fight the true art of Muay Thai, then fight it under its Thai rules. Sometime it makes me wonder whether these arts are they really challenging with MT or are they just fighting the Thai pples just for the fun of it.

Okay and for the Tyson thingy. Let just say that both of the fighters are of equal weight,height and size. Tyson in his prime (Aggressive,Powerful punches,Charging) While the Muay Thai who is also in his top prime. (Powerful punches, Smashing elbows, Clinch, Knees, Fast strong Roundkicks)

All the Muay thai guy has to do is just to block up his upper body. Deliver a speedy front thrust kick (Teep) to Tyson's midsection if he decided to come charging around to break his momentum. And deliver the counter strikes.

Or if the MT guys has all the patience in the world. He could just jump around in circling, not getting to close to Tyson, with his guards up and throw powerful fast low sweep kicks just weaken his two skinny legs. And its game over. Tyson couldt barely walk let alone charge. This technique is called 'Chopping the tree trunk' in Muay Thai or as the locals Thai fighters said " Poking the tyres"

There still many Muay Thai techniques that works very well against two handed boxers. But i wont go to it. Just too long winded. Have you guys ever try being grappled and clinched by a Muay Thai fighter ? Although it seems nothing complicated on screen. This one technique alone and continously knee the shitz out of you till you drop if u dun know how to break away from the MT clinch.

As for the UFC competition. Like i just said. The Thais has not much fighters in the heavyweight division. Its cost money and they are underfunded. Lack of assistance. Poor marketing & organisation. But i could say that alot of top fighters who do well in the UFC or anywhere incorporate Muay Thai striking in their mixed system.

As for Kung <deleted>. I rest my case. You wouldt see a UFC fighter use Drunken monkey or the kung <deleted> horse riding stance to fight, wouldt you ?

[joes125]

Geez..I cant even be bother to find and post the evidence here. Boxing and Chinese kungfu are superior than muay thai ? Hahahahaha u must be living in your dream world.

Give credits to the Muay Thai fighters, mate. They are the only practical race in Asia that dares to fight it out with the world and not go around bragging about it. I never seen a chinese fighter who dare to fight it out hardcore professional farang fighter before. Not even once.

Chinese kungfu is pretty bull. With all that jumping around, fancyful moves. Their striking power doest hold shitz. It looks good and all mystical on screen. But i can ensure you it is all 'propangada' nonsense funded by their _______. The practical force momentum is just not there. One thing shows that they are very good at world advertising and branding. Which lead you to think that kungfu is 'great' and all. Let me give you some history lesson and facts. Some years ago, Somebody sent their top 5 best legendary kungfu master to rajadamnern stadium to compete with the Thais. These are all famous and skilled kungfu fighters not your average joe. They are the best in their field. Some held names like the dragon claw master, the legendary tiger fist etc. Results? They dun last a single round with the Thais. All knocked out flat. And you can bet the place where the losers came from are pretty shocked and sored about it. And right now they are doing some counter propangada just to make everything even out.

As for boxing, It is a very good practical and straight forward attacking system. And i respect it. BUT to say boxing will owned Muay Thai is also downright bull. Boxing has only two attacking fists. While the Art of Muay Thai uses all. 8 striking forceful powerful limbs. 2 attacking hands, 2 attacking elbows, 2 attacking knees, 2 attacking powerful long range kicks. Do the maths buddy. Hand boxing is also incorporated in Muay Thai. MT fighters knows what coming. While the boxer ain no nuts about Muaythai moves at all.

Get some professional Muay Thai fighter the same weight range as Tyson. And that fat buffaloe will get knocked the shitz out in the 1st round. The Thais like all Asians race doest have much fighters in the heavyweight range. Which is understoodable. If they happen to be well-sized. You can bet on my ass these Thais fighters will dominate the fighting world.

tyson in his prime would destroy a muay thai of equal size and weight, he was just way too strong and ferocious. plus he could take punishment like very few others.

as for the kung <deleted>, at higher levels they go for critical spots like throat and eye. boxers and muay thai fighters dont get conditioned for that.

its also why you dont see systems willing to fight against it in its true form, because no one is willing to risk have a finger buried into their eyesocket or breathing passage crushed.

so assuming the kung <deleted> guy got the first strike in a critical region, its pretty much game over no matter what system.

you have to assume everything with most kung-<deleted> because they never get in the ring to prove anything

you have to be living in reality

all those death strikes do not mean squat if you do not spar- end of story- period

those blows will simply not land.

Not willing to fight- have you heard of the UFC?

Why do we never see all thse kungfuey there

answer- because they would not last a second.Not all- but most KF live in a dream world where they honslty delulde themselves into thinking that all that death delayed nonsense works

when I was 18 I dropped the malaysian kung-<deleted> champ on his little ass with a deadly art called boxing.Its from the west.

have you ever heard of it? they wera gloves and spar

there are no absoulutes,

tyson may of, he may well not of... how can you be so sure

can you tell me also who will win the next grand national?

Soon I will invite a top south american BJJ teacher to thailand.He also is great at MMA. Maybe we could meet and test those theorys.

Alex the very nice lituanian at bangkok fightclub whipped the thia armys champ ass at their base ( true to national form they then stopped him keeping the film of it) simply with BJJ.

He litrally destoyed the man who was not able to land one single blow. I saw my teacher ask people to go for eyes and bite- it made no differnance.

Not all are as good as him and the ground is NOT a place one wants to be.

[joes125]

tyson in his prime would destroy a muay thai of equal size and weight, he was just way too strong and ferocious. plus he could take punishment like very few others.

You mean like the way Tyson destroyed the supposedly "washed-up" Holyfield in 1996?

Come on, Tyson was a superpower boxer, but he certainly wasn't multidimensional fighter good enough to beat a muay thai fighter of equal size/ skill. You'd be better off choosing a boxer like Ali in his prime. I still don't think Ali would have a chance once he got his legs taken (though he'd fair much better than Tyson).

as for the kung <deleted>, at higher levels they go for critical spots like throat and eye. boxers and muay thai fighters dont get conditioned for that.

There's no conditioning for spots like eyes and throat, only defense. You show me someone who's conditioned their eyes to take punishment, and I'll show you a blind man. You show me someone who's conditioned their throat to defeat a full-fledged punch to the trachaea, and I'll show you a dead man!

These points are not easy to attack especially when you're trying to defend yourself from getting the s__t knocked out of you by a muay thai fighter. BTW, muay thai does practice defense for these attacks. You think it's somehow easier to attack the eyes/ throat than it is to land a punch to the face? You think a muay thai fighter is just going to let it happen? You've got to be kidding me!

so assuming the kung <deleted> guy got the first strike in a critical region, its pretty much game over no matter what system.

Assuming my dad hit your dad first, he could knock him out. Assuming? Come on man, you can never make assumptions when it comes to an actual fight. The degree of randomness is too great. That's why sparring is so important. Nothing is what you want it to be in a real fight. Making assumptions gets your ass knocked out in a real fight!

spot on

like to hear the veiws from someone like you on what they teach down at 13

have you seen the list of guy they're bringing over.

It reads like a who's who of top in martial arts. I like them because they do not brag, charge the earth, and have some realy intersting stuff

hey, is there any bando teachers in bangkok? there was one great young guy at the BR on 13, but he left.

Bando was great, as was the systema( russain stuff)

[joes125]

As someone else said I think the ultimate test is to fight in competition like the UFC, although that's not necessarily the best competition. In these kinds of competition many styles of fighting can be used together to overcome the opponent. Although there are restrictions they are fewer than in most fighting competition. I've never seen a Thai in these competitions but there are several Koreans and many Japanese competitors.

I think in terms of stand up fighting the K1 competition should distinguish the best style. Thailand does have an outstanding world class champion in K1, but only one as far as I know, so they still don't dominate that style either.

also spot on .

I think thats one test. Trying not to sound too karate kiddish sometime the best are those who have survived the real world.

Put me in the ring with anyone anyday rather than get in a free for all in a european street fight.

The trouble with competion is that it teachs one to compete and often, not always that thats not the only goal This is true for true martail artist's

[mc2]

as for the kung <deleted>, at higher levels they go for critical spots like throat and eye. boxers and muay thai fighters dont get conditioned for that.

There's no conditioning for spots like eyes and throat, only defense. You show me someone who's conditioned their eyes to take punishment, and I'll show you a blind man. You show me someone who's conditioned their throat to defeat a full-fledged punch to the trachaea, and I'll show you a dead man!

These points are not easy to attack especially when you're trying to defend yourself from getting the s__t knocked out of you by a muay thai fighter. BTW, muay thai does practice defense for these attacks. You think it's somehow easier to attack the eyes/ throat than it is to land a punch to the face? You think a muay thai fighter is just going to let it happen? You've got to be kidding me!

i think the assumption that the kung <deleted> guy will get the first strike is a reasonable one. they train specifically for rapid continuous attacks on critical targets, and are extremely difficult to block , even if the other guy is 100% defending something will get through and the moment he begins to attack he opens himself up to an immediate counterattack.

i just dont think the defence of a thai boxer or boxer would be adequate to deal with a barrage of high speed attacks, and yes i think it is easier to attack the eyes and throat than land a punch to the face because the outstreached hand increases effective range, plus the strike is not telegraphic because no need for power.

i have looked at some kickboxing fights on youtube and ... i dont know who the mike tyson of muay thai is but i saw one match by "stan the man" and i think its fair to say tyson would have eaten him for breakfast unless stan took his feet out right in the beginning. I think this is the kickboxers best weapon against other style, taking the legs out.

[mc2]

Not willing to fight- have you heard of the UFC?

Why do we never see all thse kungfuey there

like i said, because they dont allow throat and fingers into eyesockets.

in most situations the kung <deleted> guy will just use chain punches but against big , strong opponents like in UFC they must use critical strikes and since they are banned, we dont see much KF in UFC

[wolfmanjack]

Not willing to fight- have you heard of the UFC?

Why do we never see all thse kungfuey there

like i said, because they dont allow throat and fingers into eyesockets.

in most situations the kung <deleted> guy will just use chain punches but against big , strong opponents like in UFC they must use critical strikes and since they are banned, we dont see much KF in UFC

Don't forget a kung foo guy can attack the knees also. I studied a bastardized form of wing tsun and kicks to the knees were one of our first attacks we looked at. We practiced strikes to the eyes, ears and throat. We used our fingers, knees, elbows, the back of our wrists, feet, and our head. I do have to point out that we were learning for street fighting as self defence and not fighting in the ring. We were also not interested in gaining ranks. My teacher was qulified to teach TKD, Savate, jujitsu, and wing tsun. In his opinion Wing Tsun was the most useful with some additions from the other styles. As for other styles of kung Foo I do not know enough about them to comment.

i do not know how other schools do it but we sparred once a week without using the deadly strikes. We could attack people on the ground.

mc2 has a point about the speed factor. look at fight science. the kung foo guy could strike 3 times as fast as a rattle snake. He could strike faster than an eye blink and he could react almost as fast. My teacher could hit me without me being able to react. Bruce lee was a wing tsun practitioner until he developed jeet kun do. At the time he did green hornet he was the only person that they had to slow the camera down to be able to see his hands move.

Just to throw in my own story i fought 3 guys that jumped me in a convenience store. When the police showed up they thought a murder had been committed because of all the blood in the store. None of which was mine. The only mark on me was a red spot on my forehead where I got hit by a bottle when the fight first started. Two guys came at me from the front and one from behind. I came out on top against 3 guys using weapons and i was not even very good.

No requests for me to spar either, since i am too old and fat now.

[brycat]

1) Don't forget a kung foo guy can attack the knees also. 2) I studied a bastardized form of wing tsun and kicks to the knees were one of our first attacks we looked at. We practiced strikes to the eyes, ears and throat. We used our fingers, knees, elbows, the back of our wrists, feet, and our head. I do have to point out that we were learning for street fighting as self defence and not fighting in the ring. We were also not interested in gaining ranks. 3) My teacher was qulified to teach TKD, Savate, jujitsu, and wing tsun. In his opinion Wing Tsun was the most useful with some additions from the other styles. As for other styles of kung Foo I do not know enough about them to comment.

1) Muay thai specializes in attacks/ defense of the legs. I'd be really surprised (no, amazed) if a black belt in kung <deleted> could take out a professional muay thai fighter's knee.

2) Why was it bastardized? If it was so effective by itself it shouldn't have needed to be altered?

3) Your instructor was a wise man. Obviously he recognized the holes in wing chun and filled them using other martial arts. As I said in my previous post- no single martial art is perfect enough to defeat all others in its raw form.

Bruce lee was a wing tsun practitioner until he developed jeet kun do. At the time he did green hornet he was the only person that they had to slow the camera down to be able to see his hands move.

As long as we're talking about Bruce Lee, let's examine why he created jeet kun do.

He found that kung <deleted>, namely wing chun, lacked many practical applications. In addition to wing chun, he studied western boxing, jiu-jitsu (though not the same jiu-jitsu as today) in addition to many other martial arts. Bruce Lee was probably the first practitioner of MMA. If he was living today, I assure you jeet kun do would be very different than when it originated in 1965. His goal was to develop the best martial art system, and he knew that could only be accomplished by taking the best of multiple martial arts and putting them together.

While wing chun may have helped him to develop his speed to a certain extent, I'm certain it's wasn't fully attributed to wing chun. He was an extremely driven man who trained constantly. He possessed the determination and will power to drive himself beyond where normal people would quit. These are not qualities solely obtained from wing chun. These are the qualities of an extraordinary individual.

The Green Hornet ran from 1966 to 1967. At that time, jeet kun do was already past its inception. What you saw was a Bruce Lee influenced by multiple martial arts, not just wing chun. Having to slow down the camera? Well, like I stated before, I believe that was attributed to the individual, not just the martial art.

i just dont think the defence of a thai boxer or boxer would be adequate to deal with a barrage of high speed attacks, and yes i think it is easier to attack the eyes and throat than land a punch to the face because the outstreached hand increases effective range, plus the strike is not telegraphic because no need for power.

mc2- We're not talking about Mo trying to poke Curly's eyes out in the Three Stooges. A muay thai fighter not having an adequate defense for head attacks? (The last time I checked the eyes were in the head region, right? Neck not to far away either?) I think you need to go watch some fights in person at Lumpinee or Ratchadamnoen Stadium in Bangkok. Those guys are blazing fast and accruate with brilliant head defense.

Plus, if you remember Curly just stood there while Mo poked him in the eyes. A real fight is much more dynamic, and quite frankly, muay thai training takes the chaos that occurs in a fight into account. Kung <deleted> just doesn't. How's kung <deleted> going to poke muay thai in the eyes when kung <deleted>'s getting a barrage of whoop-ass coming at him? We're not talking about some drunk goofball throwing a roundhouse punch. In muay thai, we're talking about an individual who's been training hitting/ kicking while taking serious blows their entire career. Just not integrated into the kung <deleted> training, man!

[wolfmanjack]

1) Don't forget a kung foo guy can attack the knees also. 2) I studied a bastardized form of wing tsun and kicks to the knees were one of our first attacks we looked at. We practiced strikes to the eyes, ears and throat. We used our fingers, knees, elbows, the back of our wrists, feet, and our head. I do have to point out that we were learning for street fighting as self defence and not fighting in the ring. We were also not interested in gaining ranks. 3) My teacher was qulified to teach TKD, Savate, jujitsu, and wing tsun. In his opinion Wing Tsun was the most useful with some additions from the other styles. As for other styles of kung Foo I do not know enough about them to comment.

1) Muay thai specializes in attacks/ defense of the legs. I'd be really surprised (no, amazed) if a black belt in kung <deleted> could take out a professional muay thai fighter's knee.

First of all kung <deleted> does not have black belts. Nor does it have a multitude of different colored belts that TKD or Karate have. i have watched many muay thai fights on TV and they do not seem that fast to avoid having their knees taken out in a down and dirty fight. All of the fighters i have watched seek to absorb the kick to their thigh. If that kick was aimed at their knee instead of their thigh they would need to be retrained to avoid the kick altogether instead of being trained and conditioned to absorb the impact. Remember that it takes less that 20 pounds of pressure to break a knee. Avoiding the direct impact to the knee is essential and i do not see that in the Mauy thai fights that i have watched. None of the attacks are to the knees. They are all to the thigh are and from what i have seen the thigh attack is absorbed and not avoided.

2) Why was it bastardized? If it was so effective by itself it shouldn't have needed to be altered? I personally did not say that wing tsun in its pure form was the ultimate fighting style. My instructor was trained in many styles and believed that using wing tsun as the basis of your fighting style with the addition of a few moves from other styles was the best street fighting technique available. He also believed that it was the best style to defend against multiple attackers. It does indicate that muay Thai may not be the best fighting style to slightly modify to become the best fighting style. In my opinion many of the thai fighters lack punching ability and that is their downfall when it comes to international competition in their own sport. I watched a heavy weight championship mauy thai fight where the black guy form Holland ( if i remember correctly) won the fight by throwing the minimum number of kicks and by out punching the thai fighter.

3) Your instructor was a wise man. Obviously he recognized the holes in wing chun and filled them using other martial arts. As I said in my previous post- no single martial art is perfect enough to defeat all others in its raw form. I would have to agree with you that no style is the ultimate style against all other styles. What needs to be considered is what style would be the best to base your ultimate fighting style on? Personally i did not study wing tsun in its raw form so i can not say what all it included that I learned or did not learn. All i know is that what i learned was based on Wing Tsun with other moves added in.

Bruce lee was a wing tsun practitioner until he developed jeet kun do. At the time he did green hornet he was the only person that they had to slow the camera down to be able to see his hands move.

As long as we're talking about Bruce Lee, let's examine why he created jeet kun do.

He found that kung <deleted>, namely wing chun, lacked many practical applications. In addition to wing chun, he studied western boxing, jiu-jitsu (though not the same jiu-jitsu as today) in addition to many other martial arts. Bruce Lee was probably the first practitioner of MMA. If he was living today, I assure you jeet kun do would be very different than when it originated in 1965. His goal was to develop the best martial art system, and he knew that could only be accomplished by taking the best of multiple martial arts and putting them together.

Correct

While wing chun may have helped him to develop his speed to a certain extent, I'm certain it's wasn't fully attributed to wing chun. He was an extremely driven man who trained constantly. He possessed the determination and will power to drive himself beyond where normal people would quit. These are not qualities solely obtained from wing chun. These are the qualities of an extraordinary individual.

i agree to a point but I do have to point out that the National Geographic Fight Science tests indicated that the fastest practitioner of all the styles tested was a Kung <deleted> artist. This tells me that the training undertaken by the kung <deleted> artists emphasizes speed as opposed to strength of impact. It also indicated that boxing had the strongest punch, muay thai had the strongest knee impact, and TKD had the strongest kick. My opinion is that with the right training and the will to kill, speed may be the most important. if you are willing to destroy a persons knee, take out an eye, strike at the throat or strike at a persons temple then speed is your best asset. On the other hand i fought a guy one time that could hit me 3 times for every time i hit him. His punches did very little to me and every time i hit him he went down on the ground. He beat me in competition where each hit counts as a point but he was a bloody mess at the end of 3 rounds and i did not look like i had been in a fight. He was fast with no force behind his punches. A mixture of both has to be obtained unless you are willing to use strikes that do not need much force which is the point that mc2 was trying to make.

The Green Hornet ran from 1966 to 1967. At that time, jeet kun do was already past its inception. What you saw was a Bruce Lee influenced by multiple martial arts, not just wing chun. Having to slow down the camera? Well, like I stated before, I believe that was attributed to the individual, not just the martial art.

I don't think that the style bruce was using during the green hornet series mattered since it was all choreographed and was not my point. I only threw that in to emphasize how fast he was. I believe his speed was developed during his wing tsun days and was not a result of his developing new fighting techniques or are you saying he got faster as he got older?

i just dont think the defence of a thai boxer or boxer would be adequate to deal with a barrage of high speed attacks, and yes i think it is easier to attack the eyes and throat than land a punch to the face because the outstreached hand increases effective range, plus the strike is not telegraphic because no need for power.

mc2- We're not talking about Mo trying to poke Curly's eyes out in the Three Stooges. A muay thai fighter not having an adequate defense for head attacks? (The last time I checked the eyes were in the head region, right? Neck not to far away either?) I think you need to go watch some fights in person at Lumpinee or Ratchadamnoen Stadium in Bangkok. Those guys are blazing fast and accruate with brilliant head defense.

Are they 3 times as fast as a rattlesnake? can they strike faster than an eye blink ? The Kung <deleted> fighter that participated in fight Science can.

Plus, if you remember Curly just stood there while Mo poked him in the eyes. A real fight is much more dynamic, and quite frankly, muay thai training takes the chaos that occurs in a fight into account. Kung <deleted> just doesn't. How's kung <deleted> going to poke muay thai in the eyes when kung <deleted>'s getting a barrage of whoop-ass coming at him? We're not talking about some drunk goofball throwing a roundhouse punch. In muay thai, we're talking about an individual who's been training hitting/ kicking while taking serious blows their entire career. Just not integrated into the kung <deleted> training, man!

Serious blows in their style. Also some kung <deleted> schools have full contact training as well. I do have to admit that the most deadly attacks in both kung <deleted> and Muay thai are not allowed in friendly competition so we will never know will we.

[brycat]

Wolfamanjack- You seem to be putting a lot of stock into that episode of Fight Science. I watched it too and found it interesting up to a point. What you have to remember is the participants were hitting a dummy that wasn't moving or trying to hit back. The whole game changes when you introduce a true opponent trying to hurt you.

3x as fast as a rattlesnake? Ok, let's assume that's true. Would a person that fast be able to execute an eye gouge on a moving fighter, trained to defend themselves with the same speed as a when they hit a dummy? No way. The eyes are no bigger than a 10 baht coin. Quite small targets. Bobbing and weaving as well as blocks will really challenge the effectiveness of 3x rattlesnake speed.

And you yourself pointed out a time when you sparred with someone who was fast enough to land three punches to your one. You said you knocked him down every time you hit him. Did speed help him there?

No, speed is only one of the many components that make a good fighter. How would that speed work inside a muay thai chinch? I'll bet muay thai knees and elbows would win that scenario. How would a person's speed be affected if they weren't used to being (and I mean really) kicked, punched, elbowed or kneed? Hesitation kills speed. Pain is a great inducer of hesitation.

Some kung <deleted> schools have full contact sparring? Ok, what percentage are we talking about? 10-20%? (I personally think it's much lower than that, but for the sake of argument let's give old kung <deleted> the benefit of the doubt.) What percentage of muay thai schools have full contact sparring? I'm willing to bet it's no less than 70%. (Again, I'm relatively sure it's much higher than that, but let's be conservative.) Which fighter do you think can take a punch, kick, elbow, knee all while executing their martial art? I know who I'd put my money on.

Punching bags and dummies don't hit people. People hit people!!!

[oevna]

...

First of all kung <deleted> does not have black belts. Nor does it have a multitude of different colored belts that TKD or Karate have. i have watched many muay thai fights on TV and they do not seem that fast to avoid having their knees taken out in a down and dirty fight. All of the fighters i have watched seek to absorb the kick to their thigh. If that kick was aimed at their knee instead of their thigh they would need to be retrained to avoid the kick altogether instead of being trained and conditioned to absorb the impact. Remember that it takes less that 20 pounds of pressure to break a knee. Avoiding the direct impact to the knee is essential and i do not see that in the Mauy thai fights that i have watched. None of the attacks are to the knees. They are all to the thigh are and from what i have seen the thigh attack is absorbed and not avoided.

...

Then you haven't been watching (or paying close enough attention to) skilled Muay Thai fighters, because they do not seek to absorb any kicks to their thighs. A good Muay Thai fighter will check leg kicks by lifting the leg up with the knee bent and absorb the kick on the shin. If a fighter lands a leg kick on another fighter's thigh, it means that his opponent wasn't able to block it; it does not mean that he sought to absorb the kick on his thigh.

Here is a video describing the technique:

http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/low-kick-defense/

[Avante]

Aw..to those who kept arguing Chinese kungfu is the better fighting system..stop exchanging views and just tell me why the top 5 legendary chinese kungfu masters was knocked out cold by average muay thai fighters in rajadamnern stadium.

Just tell me why ?

[oevna]

Aw..to those who kept arguing Chinese kungfu is the better fighting system..stop exchanging views and just tell me why the top 5 legendary chinese kungfu masters was knocked out cold by average muay thai fighters in rajadamnern stadium.

Just tell me why ?

They will always make excuses, such as "the rule set was too restrictive and didn't allow them to use their deadly techniques," or "they were wearing boxing gloves, so they couldn't use the deadly techniques which required use of their hands."

In reality, the deadly eye-gouge, the deadly groin strike, the deadly throat jab, etc. are all much harder to pull off when your opponent is fighting back (unlike the compliant kung <deleted> demonstration videos that you see on the internet). And practitioners of "kung <deleted>" or other styles that profess that their skills are too deadly to test in the ring can always claim that using these techniques in sparring would result in killing their sparring partner, so they never have to prove what they say. It's illogical, but it keeps the delusion going.

[Avante]

Hong Kong Taiji expert Hu Sheng in a 1958 Challenge in Ratchadamnern Stadium Bangkok. Right: His fellow Taiji fighter Zhang Yaoqiang. They were the pioneer Kung <deleted> fighters to face Muay Thai in the Ring. Both were knocked out under 1 round.

1 of the 5 Hong Kong Kung <deleted> fighters getting knocked out a 1974 Challenge in Lumpinee Stadium, Bangkok. Right: Another Hong Kong Kung <deleted> fighter whacked in a Muay Thai Expo in Hong Kong, 1981.

Wushu master Xu Xiaolong smashing a rock with his iron palm in a 1985 Friendly in Shanghai Stadium, China. Right: Xu's iron palm proved ineffective against his Thai opponent a few moments later. The match was declared a draw just as Xu was abt to be knocked out. Hahaha irony..

A Malaysian Kung <deleted> fighter using a knee kick against his Thai opponent in a Sep 1974 Challenge in Kuala Lumpur Stadium. Right: Tan Guancheng, 1 of the 2 famous fighters who actually defeated their Thai opponents by points that day. Tan was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang (his hometown)". Remarks : Oooo such fancyful name..well not bad for a change lol. Too bad he didt knock out a MT fighter. Just by awarded 'points'. Corruption baised nationalism point system perhaps ? Afew Thai boxers told me 1st hand that if they were fighting overseas. Most of the time they have to knock the shitz out of their opponent just to shut the judges up and to prevent things like this to happen.

Hong Kong fighter Chen Zhaojia facing Montong in a Nov 1981 Challenge in Hong Kong. He was knocked out by knee kicks in 1 round. Right: Fellow fighter Guo Huaqiang also defeated that day. He put up a good fight, but threw in the towel in the 3^rd round.

Traditional Karate Masters who fought & lost - Left: Jul 1974 Lumpini Stadium. 2^nd Dan Wado-ryu Karate expert taking a beating from Ramchai. Right: Oct 1974 Ratchadamnern Stadium. 5^th Dan Shotokan Karate Shihan fought retired Muay Thai veteran fighter Chuchai. Chuchai won by TKO in the 2^nd round.

THE American Kickboxer's unpublicized defeats - Left: California Mar 1977. Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez's 1^st titanic struggle against Thai boxer Nalongleng. A high roundhouse finally downed him after a marathon 9 round. But the judges declared the match a 'No Decision' anyway. Left: Tokyo Rematch Aug 1978. Benny again learning the power of Muay Thai low kicks as well as knees. He lost by decision to Bayud after 6 punishing rounds. It was his 2^nd & last defeat. Benny never fought another Thai boxer again.

Another American Kickboxer who fought & learned - Left: Don 'The Dragon' Wilson beat Che Le & another Thai boxer in Hong Kong 1980. Right: Don getting punished for that by Samart in Lumpinee Stadium Dec 1983. He lost by decision but managed to endure 5 rounds of beating.

Kung <deleted> experts who fought with Thai boxers through the years always found themselves defenceless against a barrage of low/high roundhouses & elbow/knee strikes in the ring. Some of these experts had tremendous power - they could smash rocks & bricks with bare hands. Yet none of this power prove to be of any use at all in the face of rapid Muay Thai combos. Most of them could not even get a single blow to connect at all. On the other hand, Thai boxers see all sorts of openings in their rigid stances & took advantage of these to great effect. Almost all those Kung <deleted> fighters lost by knockout

Chinese Kung <deleted> History

[brycat]

Kung <deleted> experts who fought with Thai boxers through the years always found themselves defenceless against a barrage of low/high roundhouses & elbow/knee strikes in the ring. Some of these experts had tremendous power - they could smash rocks & bricks with bare hands. Yet none of this power prove to be of any use at all in the face of rapid Muay Thai combos. Most of them could not even get a single blow to connect at all. On the other hand, Thai boxers see all sorts of openings in their rigid stances & took advantage of these to great effect. Almost all those Kung <deleted> fighters lost by knockout

Exemplifies my point exactly. The sparring regiment muay thai incorporates allows them to deal with real attacks while actually applying their martial art. You get smacked anywhere in the body by a muay thai fighter, and you're not used to it, you'll be completely at a disadvantage. It just doesn't matter how fast, powerful or accurate you are. If you're not used to getting knocked around, but you assume you're good enough to avoid being hit, you're going to get knocked out!!!

Great historical synopsis of muay thai vs. kung <deleted> Avante!

[Avante]

Fight Science ? Take a look at the kung <deleted> guy. His face is pretty sore throughout the documentary. Everyone (Boxer, Muay Thai, Ninjitsu,etc) has practical moves to proudly show. While all he demonstrated was well nice.

He could be throwing 50 moves in 1 second for all i care..It doest prove anything.

The other guy who stood with a stucked up face throughout was the brazilian ju jit su guy. The art is cool. He could dislocate and break arm on the ground level.

Ong Bak 2 - Muay Boran The science of breaking limbs on standup level.

[Avante]

Great historical synopsis of muay thai vs. kung <deleted> Avante!

Thank you, Arigato Khun brycat San My pleasure

i like to move it , move it , move it

[brycat]

The other guy who stood with a stucked up face throughout was the brazilian ju jit su guy. The art is cool. He could dislocate and break arm on the ground level.

That was Rickson Gracie (brother of Royce, son of Helio Gracie). I studied BJJ under one of his extension schools in San Francisco, CA for about three years. He's about the best BJJ has ever seen. (That's something that's contested by nearly no one in BJJ, though there are some extremely talented new BJJ fighters coming out these days.)

In fact, when the Gracie family chose Royce to fight in the first UFC competitions, they chose him because he didn't look like a fighter (thin, unassuming, etc.). Royce has always given credit to Rickson for being better BJJ fighter. They didn't choose Rickson because, at least in those days, he looked all too much like a wrecking machine (which he was). They wanted to demonstrate BJJ coming from someone who didn't look threatening. Look how that turned out!

I've heard/ read stories and seen Rickson do some amazing things. Truly a genius of the art. Once he gets someone to the ground, it's over. In addition, he is a real gentleman (at least when you're not facing him on the mat). Can't give enough respect to the talents of that man.

[sanmiguel]

The thing with the Mike Tyson of old (ie before prison) was people knew exactly what he was going to do but they just couldnt stop him, though i dont think he was that great at taking a punch at least after prison where he was like a rabbit in headlights once hit.

When the news shows gangs of young Thais fighting on the street they usually seem to use their fists, as lets face if you do a kick in a street fight and miss youre pretty much in the shit and fists are quicker and more accurate.

Ive boxed as a kid and when i watch Thai boxing i think i'd knock them out no problem if the bout turned into a fist fight as their balance/stance for punching isnt right, but if it was me using Queensbury boxing rules against Thai boxing rules i reckon i'd just give up as i wouldnt know what was coming next.

Also the lack of Thais who make money in pro boxing shows their punches are weaker, as there is more money in this sport im sure theyd turn to it if they had the ability.

PS Im coming to BKK shortly can anyone tell me where there is a gym with punch bags preferably near to Sukhumvit that i can use, im not looking for a Muay Thai camp just somewhere to keep fit.

Edited April 8, 2009 by sanmiguel

[oevna]

...

PS Im coming to BKK shortly can anyone tell me where there is a gym with punch bags preferably near to Sukhumvit that i can use, im not looking for a Muay Thai camp just somewhere to keep fit.

Have you checked out Bangkok Fight Club? They aren't exclusively a boxing club, but they do advertise that they train boxing (in addition to Muay Thai, Jiu-Jitsu, MMA, etc.), and they are in the Sukhumvit area. Here is their English language web site:

http://www.bangkokfightclub.com/english/index.html

[joes125]

...

PS Im coming to BKK shortly can anyone tell me where there is a gym with punch bags preferably near to Sukhumvit that i can use, im not looking for a Muay Thai camp just somewhere to keep fit.

Have you checked out Bangkok Fight Club? They aren't exclusively a boxing club, but they do advertise that they train boxing (in addition to Muay Thai, Jiu-Jitsu, MMA, etc.), and they are in the Sukhumvit area. Here is their English language web site:

http://www.bangkokfightclub.com/english/index.html

another great new gym is behind the ambassador hotel on soi 13 in a condo

its the boxer-rebellion and has a really wide range of experts teaching.

SAVATE ( french kickboxing) muaythai,

JEETKUNEDO( bruce Lee's martiart- really good),

JUNFAN /JKD ( a more kung fuey version of JKD, ask them to explain it )

SILAT( indonesian/malay art) , Amok! ( the best blade art I have ever seen) WRESTLING

BOXING, MMA,

BJJ ( a machado student will be coming to give seminars I am told soon)

SYSTEMA( russain art)

KAPAP ( israeli art),

western /eurpean style swordmanship,

there s even a man who teaches film fighting! phew!

it goes on and on

they have police/ miltiary teachers, ladies /childrens /exective self defence programes ( which are some of the best I have ever seen)

The owner is qualified under many people ( jim wagner/avi nardia/tom sotis/mark stewart/ etc)

but quite modest and very approachable ( if you can ever get to meet him)

and if you do not like what you want they are quite happy to tell where youll find it

[joes125]

The thing with the Mike Tyson of old (ie before prison) was people knew exactly what he was going to do but they just couldnt stop him, though i dont think he was that great at taking a punch at least after prison where he was like a rabbit in headlights once hit.

When the news shows gangs of young Thais fighting on the street they usually seem to use their fists, as lets face if you do a kick in a street fight and miss youre pretty much in the shit and fists are quicker and more accurate.

Ive boxed as a kid and when i watch Thai boxing i think i'd knock them out no problem if the bout turned into a fist fight as their balance/stance for punching isnt right, but if it was me using Queensbury boxing rules against Thai boxing rules i reckon i'd just give up as i wouldnt know what was coming next.

Also the lack of Thais who make money in pro boxing shows their punches are weaker, as there is more money in this sport im sure theyd turn to it if they had the ability.

PS Im coming to BKK shortly can anyone tell me where there is a gym with punch bags preferably near to Sukhumvit that i can use, im not looking for a Muay Thai camp just somewhere to keep fit.

call lee at boxer-rebellion.net

0866109230