Thai Boxing Vs Other Systems

[Avante]

Also the lack of Thais who make money in pro boxing shows their punches are weaker, as there is more money in this sport im sure theyd turn to it if they had the ability.

My dear friend..The Thais basically dominate the world champion professional world light weight boxing division exp: batam weight. light feather weight etc etc

Followed up will be the Fillipinos, the Cubans, the niggers etc..Just to name a few.

Usually when the average Thais fight in a street fight..They dun just throw punches..It is just not their style and its not like America here either. When a Thai fight..U can be rest assured they will fight dirty and downright unethical using everything they can get hold of to attack or perhaps kill you.

7 to one, Beer bottles, Motorcycle helmets, wooden stick with nails, knives, guns, Flying kicks, Punches etc.

If you ended up dead, the better. Thats the Thais mentality. For a dead man..He plot no counter revenge.

You boxed as a kid and you think you can knock a Muay Thai fighter out ? Watch this.

Muay Thai Vs Black Boxer

Doest even last one god dam_n round

Edited April 9, 2009 by Avante

[bertlamar]

what a bunch of myths.

First up, Thais ARE fairly dominant in boxing at the weight levels that they fight at; lightweight and lighter. Plenty of champs including a few hall of famers, Khaosai Galaxy being one if I recall. Successful at an olympic level. what more do you want?

The number of heavyweight Thais would be almost none, Thai people aren't that big. So no, we have not seen a Thai fighter that would be of similar size to say Mike Tyson (who once it was discovered how to beat him, was shown to be quite beatable, after all he is short and could be controlled as HOlyfield discovered, Holyfield being not even being a true heavyweight as a cruiser coming up rather than a born big man). We have however seen Muay Thai fighters from other countries using the Muay Thai system, excluding elbows, in contests like the K1. Basically, in the most highly paid striking sport (i.e. not MMA) mixed style contest, Muay Thai or some karate system encorporating large elements of Muay Thai is completely dominant; boxers such as Mighty Mo, former number 1 contender Francois Botha usually get schooled unless they learn specific MT techinques. Stan the Man is so far off what a world champion is you couldn't really use him as a guide.

K-1 is not the perfect guide anyhow, as half the weapons (grappling, elbows) are missing anyhow, and at a heavyweight level Muay Thai starts to become less and less elegant, in the same way a fighter like pernell whitiker in his prime was so much more skilled than Tyson in his; different skills at different weights; in heavy weights the abilty to land that one big hit (and tyson had power in both hands which is rare) is key. However, there is yet to be a decent boxer in either K-1 (heavyweight) or k-1 maxx (up to 75kg, so super middleweight) that has acheived anything. They get taken apart. Ditto for Kungfu.

The Kungfu fights of the 70s were a joke; under ring conditions, Muay Thai just is way faster as a kicking style with a ton more power.

Wing Chun and Muay Thai were the skills that a lot of the guys I used to train with had, and they serve very different purposes. A wing chun specialist no doubt could win a fight to the death, no rules, but all the finger strikes (sticky fingers) into pressure points, throat, eyes, etc; they are single attacks developed by a woman to destroy the opponent, it is not a fighting system. Ditto for MMA, i is brutal in MMA conditions, but if you aren't allowing grappling, then it isn't so useful. Ditto for Muay Thai, Muay Thai doesn't encourgage you to sit on your punches in a stance for that, because you open up to kicks; if there are no kicks, then boxing is a way better approach.

but under K-1/mixed martial arts type rules as per K-1, Muay Thai reigns surpreme, because it is a fighting sport for those conditions, with gloves etc.

I have little doubt that Ray Sefo for instance, would have easily beaten Tyson in his heyday at cruiser weight in the 90s under Muay Thai rules. He effortlessly schooled David Tua in boxing sparring when the Tua man first returned to NZ to fight and that was boxing alone. Incidentally he learned wing chun as well for a while, prior to switching to Mauy thai; the gym he trained at used to make all learn both I think at one point. There is a lot of similarity between wing chun and Muay Thai in the knee grappling transition; being able to sense and feel pressure and gain the inside control.

If you added in knees and elbows, a boxer like tyson would be extremely easy to stop from coming inside with a push kick; they would have no defense against a knee or elbow on the inside.... they would be stuck in the grapple.....their only hope would be landing a big punch but

You are welcome to your own observations, but the facts of the K-1 and other mixed martial art events in a gloves/ring environment have never shown that either boxer or wingchun/kung <deleted> on their own were even close to enough to win. The only people I've ever heard this sotr of stuff for have never held pads or fought with a decent muay Thai fighter.

at a lighter weight, it would be a more interesting contest...certianly in the K-1 maxx they had to modify the rules but even without elbows and limited knees, Buakaw and the other MT fighters have trod all over the kung <deleted> and boxer guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBExHg5A-Bw...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHdij5KbOVg

Even with the 30kg weight difference between mighty mo and Kaoklai, you can see the simple strategy against a boxer; let the guy come onto you, and catch him wrong stepped.

Given that any muay Thai fighter could add in other styles and skills if they wanted to, the system now used in Lumpini is basically the best you can do for the most part under MT rules. Obviously, less help in a street fight with no gloves, grappling, bottles etc.

[sanmiguel]

First up, Thais ARE fairly dominant in boxing at the weight levels that they fight at; lightweight and lighter. Plenty of champs including a few hall of famers, Khaosai Galaxy being one if I recall. Successful at an olympic level. what more do you want?

Thais are not even close to dominant in any weight division in boxing they never have been, there is the a couple of them in the mix amongst several of the lighter divisions thats not domination or even fairly dominant.

And it is a fact someone who has a stance and is trained at boxing would knock the head off a muay Thai boxer, in a boxing contest which if you read what i wrote is what i said.

If you wish to prove me wrong state examples of Thai's dominating queensbury rules boxing, at which point i'll be glad to admit im wrong, i'm pretty sure im not.

Cheers for the lead to the place in Sukhumvit, im only into fitness and slapping bags and pads about, i've a feeling these people arent into letting someone quietly go along and do this kind of thing.

From what ive seen regarding boxing in BKK where farangs are involved it seems to be aimed towards wanabee failed tough boys and university backpacker wanabee tough boys, ........ and gyms trying to make ludicrous profits 3000 bht a month for hitting bags is crazy money...... all i wish to do is 6 rounds of hitting a punch bag 4 times a week .... in England i pay 7 quid a week with the option of 6 different bags for this, and a perfectly equiped gym.

There must be somewhere in BKK that offers a similar option for a reasonable price.

Edited April 9, 2009 by sanmiguel

[oevna]

...

and gyms trying to make ludicrous profits 3000 bht a month for hitting bags is crazy money...... all i wish to do is 6 rounds of hitting a punch bag 4 times a week .... in England i pay 7 quid a week with the option of 6 different bags for this, and a perfectly equiped gym.

There must be somewhere in BKK that offers a similar option for a reasonable price.

3000 baht a month (58 GBP) is about 14 quid 50p a week, which I wouldn't quite put in the category of crazy money, but that is for 6 days a week and also includes training. You could probably negotiate a cheaper price with them if you are only going to hit the bags a few times a week. You might check out Chitlada Gym, which is located at 277 Soi Saen Suk, Praram 4 Rd. (Rama 4), Phra Khanong, Khlong Toei, Bangkok 10110 (off of Sukhumvit Soi 36).

EDIT -- clarifying, and adding more quoted text.

Edited April 10, 2009 by oevna

[Ritti]

From my background most kung <deleted> or karate styles wont last against M.T or boxing.

Kung <deleted> - most arts do NOT train for real combat. They are a points scoring system that requires fast attacks that are ineffective in a real situation. google MT V's TWD. after 3 or 4 hard leg kick the TWD boy can even stand let alone fight.

Boxers have much better hands and timing but with the boxing profile (which is side on) they also can not stand the leg or body kicks.

No Style will always beat a certain style.

Look at BJJ - stand up they will get smashed against an average MT guy but they take you down and you cry like a school girl.

This is the longest running forum question (which style beats all others) I would say MT is right up there but NONE are the best

[Sir Burr]

I know nothing about martial arts, but, I do like to watch MMA tournaments.

Seems to me, the most successful are Greco-Roman wrestlers that have learned a few basic strikes.

A wrestler gets you down none of your martial arts are of any use against him.

[bertlamar]

I know nothing about martial arts, but, I do like to watch MMA tournaments.

Seems to me, the most successful are Greco-Roman wrestlers that have learned a few basic strikes.

A wrestler gets you down none of your martial arts are of any use against him.

it all depends on the rules as we all seem to be agreeing.

Under MT type rules, MT is the best (obvious to me, but perhaps there are still some boxing and kung <deleted> skeptics; all I can say is almost every boxer or kung <deleted> or TKD champ that ever came to the MT gym I trained at ended up adapting; the idea Mike Tyson would be able to stay inside but not so far inside to wear an elbow or get tied up and then have to sustain 3 minutes of knees seems a bit unrealistic); under boxing rules, boxing is best; under MMA style which allows grappling, then AFAIK the grapplers tend to be able to include a few strikes and some defense and then get close enough to turn it into a grapple fight in which case the striking arts don't stand too much chance.

Things like Wingchun might be helpful in hitting someone in the throat or something, but under MT conditions if they were even close to effective, you would see them now. The main major change to MT in recent years IMHO has been less specialisation and more fighters able to 'do it all' plus a significant improvement in handwork relative to previous.

[Fun2Fun]

The receipt for doing well in MMA has for a long time been to combine BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling (and for some a bit of ground and pound added). Now some are adding more traditional boxing on top of this to get a further edge in their stand-up.

Karate/Kung-<deleted> practitioners have traditionally not done so well in MMA, mostly due to having no take-down defense and/or of the back fighting skills.

The noted exceptions in the later times can be said to Cung Le (3 time world champion, undefeated in his professional fighting carer in Kickboxing, Sanshou and MMA and is currently Strikeforce Middleweight MMA World Champion) and Lyoto Machida (Undefeated in MMA fights and up for the champion Light Heavy Weight title fight at the upcoming UFC 98).

Sanshou/Sanda is a form of Chinese Kung-<deleted> with full contact sparing and fights.

Almost forgot, until recently Chuck Liddell was a long reigning LHW champ in UFC combining Kempo karate and Koei-Kan karate with a great take down defence.

But then you have examples like Anderson Silva which uses Muay Thai at an exceptional level and is a standout in the UFC Middleweight division, and is considered the best Pound for pound fighter in MMA. Depending on who you ask that is, some would say Fedor Emelianenko (Sambo - a Russian martial arts style) is the pound for pound king.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Fun2Fun

[Gerry290]

Dia Duit! Conas a ta tu?

Ah! The age old argument! Style Vs Style!

When I saw this thread, like (God forbid, & God help the unfortunates involved in a car crash), but its a bit like happening upon a bad car crash, the police are there, but ambulance has not arrived yet. Half of you does not want to look at the bodies or injured, & the other half cannot help having a curious 1 second look, as your direct past the unfortunate accident scene.

I was like... (groan) "Oh No, do not open that thread" & other half of me out of an unneeded for curiosity, could not resist having a look!

As american pioneer, champion, fighter, great of Karate & Kick Boxing Joe Lewis former battle hardened recon US Marine, originally an Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate man, who later broke down the doors (as others did) & cross trained in many styles, with all the greats & martial arts champions & "masters" (word I use loosely) & trained with Bruce Lee, & many others.

Joe Lewis said always he does Not believe in "Styles", - "There are only kicks & punches" . Lewis is in his 60s now, & still training & teaching, & no doubt a true fighter. I think that is an excellent attitude, no styles, "only kicks & punches"... yeah yeah.. before anyone butts in... I know he does not mentioned knee, elbow, grappling, semtex, etc... but if we look at this comment on the "bigger picture"...

Or.. if I can get this "proverb" correct... the gist of it being...

"It is not the size of the dog, but the Size of the Fight IN the dog".

The general thought (reading Geoff Thompson ebook "3 Second Fighter The Sniper Option" the other night, Geoffs thought was this, as many other leading experts often say similar. Usually or More often than not (allowing for the occasional exception to the rule of thumb) as per combat sport or a "match fight" under MT rules say VS Western Boxer the MT guy has odds on his side. Under grappling rules the Wrestler "usually" will beat the Western boxer etc etc.

The criminal street violent experienced psycho knife blade no qualms b*stard perhaps with some past formal knife training who smokes 80 cigs a day, snorts things, & drinks booze to unhealthy levels or perhaps no training, just street experience with the "shank" with a knife outside on the street will slice us all to ribbons & gut us like a fish, before we can blink never mind do <insert your chosen combat system of choice here>, because he has used "deception" & set us up, or "distracted" us, & never do we see the blade, as he conceals his weapon, before re-concealing it into out guts.

Or perhaps the exact same street violent criminal, lets remove the knife, & replace it with a strike, a head butt . again employs "deception. distraction, sets us up" & BANG.... "ambush attack" with the 1 or 2 techniques he knows, but has used for real, 100s & 100s times... a punch, headbutt, followed by several steel capped toe doc marten boots into our face.

As much as I hate them, the odds (on a street situation) is well in these guys favor.

I take no sides in the debate as for me my belief "who cares what colour the cat is as long as it kills the mice" (borrowed from Geoff Thompson Real Punching Vol 1 DVD & well worth checking out" , as I prefer to consider a mix of "just kicks & punches, no style" with "size of Fight in Dog".

Certainly not to criticize the ring combat sports champion fight, some will destroy all on the street, perhaps others will do not well at all on a street attack, as there is no coach, no ring man, X number of weeks to get "mentally ready" for the fight", its dark, lonely, perhaps fell unwell that evening, & out of no where comes the unexpected sudden Street confrontation. One thing for sure, is last place anyone wants to be on street is on the ground, certainly the bjj or grappler will 9/10 dominate on the ground, that domination of one attacker , is no use, when strange boots appear from no where to stomp the ground mans head into pavement, or the grounded attacker pulls concealed blade & bangs it into ground fighters groin, or spits a ball of phelm into face, & bites nose of ground man so hard, he freezes like electric shock.... maybe??? Regardless, on street ground is not the place to be. (I ve been there, 12+ kicks in face from attackers buddies as my head was rammed into corner of pavement. Whites of both my eyes were pure red for over 4 weeks after. I did manage to fight off enough to survive, get to feet & escape, on later did the injuries kick in, long time ago that but a good lesson re the ground.)

Kung &lt;deleted&gt;? we got many styles, over 1000 maybe 2000 styles of kung &lt;deleted&gt;? WT center line "Fact" (not concept.. FACT) is excellent & with a very loose bastardized self learned (Paul Vunak Jeet Kune Do "Straight Blast" being one source & other reading or vids), version of WT center line with "straight blast" (only i use palm heel open hand strikes & massive mental aggression) found it very useful in a few confrontations, where I had no option but to go physical.

Indeed, read CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHTING by Jack Dempsey you will learn a lot of the "Art" of boxing. (lots to learn in there for sure).

However, not sure if the guy is still around, but perhaps 15 years ago, as he wrote a monthly training feature in a USA mag on martial arts, was a Chinese American New Yorker, a Kung &lt;deleted&gt; Sifu called Scotty Wong, who taught & trained in a style of kung &lt;deleted&gt; called "JOW GAR", (I think Jow Gar is a not too far off the better known Hong Kong Gung &lt;deleted&gt; Style called "Hung Gar"). This Scotty Wong guy also was/is a hardcore biker of the outlaw variety (not sure which MC) & in New York his "Kwoon" was either Brooklyn or Bronx. Scotty Wong taught & trained Jow Gar full contact bare knuckle with head contact allowed, & fought all out... I think he had 6 students!!!

Again, getting back to "no style, only kicks & punches" it is "HOW" you train, not "WHAT"you train.

My own original martial art.. mugendo kickboxing... depending on student & what they wanted, (aside from the 84-89 years, which was brutal, i.e. sparring 20 Irish lads, many only with bag gloves as no one had any money in the 80s, construction laborer was usual profession, sparring usually denigrated into a brawl, no rounds, & minimal supervision, with assitant instructor in charge... as sensei had vanished again for 1 - 3 months, & no one except a teenage me, would ask nor answer, my unwelcome teenage questions about "where Sensei was? or why has Sensei vanished again?", usually would get an extra pasting during sparring just for asking "stupid questions"?

Years later, I heard snippets of info, that certain people may had been "politically active" & "sensei" & some of the brown belts, a tight close knit crew, being good opportunists, were pocketing the proceeds of their, freelance heists unsanctioned by the "organization" they belonged too but done in name of this organization using the "kit" of said "org", as opposed to turning the proceeds over to the so called "cause"! (Actually, I think when I heard these rumors about my old kickboxing karate club instructors, I never heard about any of them a trace nor mention, other than some had move v fast to far away lands... I think their "boy scout" organization, which was around & about in the small border village of North East Ireland, across 20Km to the famous town nicked named "El Passo" found out about their "freelancing" & the "emerald isle" they departed with the speed of 1000 gazelle. ) I still wonder?!?!

Back then nothing did we know of this "carry on" in the midst of our karate club, however people of this mentality, did make for harden task masters to learn karate that was changing into kickboxing. Tough days. (ok side story nothing to do with debate, but indicates harden types trained there.. looking back at those years).

My point re the kick boxing I did, was these more modern days, kickboxing can be taught in the hard way, or on the opposite way, kick boxing can be taught as a fun, fitness, workout, with light easy fun sparring, (which is F All use for street self defense the fun fitness version of kickboxing, while the harder way is certainly more aligned to success on the street. Same with Muay Thai.. someone was telling me last year here in Pattaya there is a "Social Muay Thai" class which is for fun, & fitness, not fighting, & that is fine, as long as people doing the "Social Muay Thai" do not fancy themselves as the next Diesel Noi !

Again... if I am going to pick holes in a fighting system, I will pick holes in a "style" I do myself called Krav Maga.

Krav Maga is hype marketed especially the the American Krav Maga, sell "McDojo Krav Maga" Franchise license with marketing plan. I was looking on Facebook yesteday, a well known European KM Instructor linked to sexy californian Krav BS Maga, posted a video clip & was raving how excellent it was, of some McDojo Krav Maga School in San Francisco.

Now the training looked fun, nice customers, a room full of nice looking women, & a few slick looking dudes, & the token few local cops training there. workout was good for fitness, looked like a fun kick boxing class with a bit of self defense thrown in. (why they wrap their hands, I do not know? perhaps make more money selling hand wraps?)

It was all touchy feely good fun... and that is fine, its healthy, it is good, as long as the people know what they are or are not learning.... the thing the angered me is... they were all convinced doing Krav Maga or the fact the Israeli Special Forces do Krav Maga, & they were learning it.... made them sure fire self defense experts... LOL! After a glorified Tae Bo class! &lt;deleted&gt;!

Only a few very specialized units in IDF learn KM to any level, a friend who served many years in IDF Duvdevan unit 1/100 pass selection, told me they did 4 month x 2 hours a day Krav Maga, which was full out, hard on, broken noses training, with monthly top up training after initial 4 months.. those who learn KM in IDF... its trained very like Muay Thai, (add in some dirty combatives tricks eye attacks etc & weapons stuff). It is more a few basic strikes, again sparred v like MT only with a street fight beat to it. (gloved fists, & punches are used to replace the open hand dirty strikes, as its hard to replicate them in full out full contact sparring.)

Krav Maga as trained in proper way, with hard contact, is more about building aggression & grit, as opposed to a grab a bag of many sexy californian krav maga "techniques". Most of the IDF KM Instructors have been life long martial arts people outside of the Military Krav Maga training. Itay Gil who I trained with, & was head of IDF KM training at one stage is in Martial Arts since he was 6 years old, his non KM -> recreational MA is muay thai & MMA. (He was guy on Human Weapon) and other MA Show "Fight Quest" IDF Krav Maga was totally Muay Thai similar... plus head trainer featured on the Fight Quest Krav Maga show is a Muay Thai guy, & also Pro Western Boxer. (He did a Pro Bout in March in Philly in USA,).

Lets add in fact too... any Special Force, be they SAS, IDF, SWAT Team, Irish Gardai Emergency Response Unit (who gunned down 2 criminals in Dublin other day who refused to drop shawn offs shot guns & point them at under cover police, 1 Gardai finished both with just 5 shots! YeeeHaaaa! good work. 2 scum less on streets of Dublin.)

Special Units jobs involve use of guns. Military usually long gun (M16 in IDF as no 1), short arm as back up, (unless of specific mission) & perhaps blade depending... little time is left for tricking about the Hand to Hand Combat.

My point on this, Tae Bo Krav Maga people (product of socially irresponsible Instructors filling peoples heads with false confidence), Special Forces learning KM, has little value to the average ordinary joe mr civilian (thats me by the way), again as my friend with mucho years experience undercover in elite IDF unit Sayeret Duvdevan when I pressed him a few times about "what sort of Krav Maga training did you learn" got a bit annoyed at me missing the point, & pulled out a semi automatic & angrily shouted as he point at the pistol... "See that gun or my M16 I told you about......THATS REAL KRAV MAGA WE USE IN IDF... UNDERSTAND!!!!!"

Point taken.. & a very good point too. Sorry to bust the bubble on the "myth of Krav Maga'... there you have it from the most elite of the elite.... & Sayeret Duvdevan currently are trained in Krav Maga by Itay Gil (Human Weapon) who I am aligned with as per my own training. Its only as a back up, the Israelis leave nothing to chance.

Not taking from a Special Force guys ability & grit & fortitude, but since Gun is their job.

For street self defense, my own belief, is one would be better, learning from a reality self defense or martial arts person who has experience on the street. Perfect example... Geoff Thompson with his 9 years experience on rough violent night club doors, (plus karate, boxing, muay thai, judo, wrestling training he has), or someone who teaches a good mix of combatives/street Lee Morrison www.urbancombatives.com whose experience is on civilian street & training is aimed at civilian street, or Krav Maga which is not of the sexy variety but aimed at civilian street with Contact Training. or others...

Again... its still "punches & kicks" and more importantly "not size of dog but size of fight in dog" me thinks...

Since I stopped ring fighting kickboxing 8 years back, (not that I was much good as a combat athlete... I did make Irish champ one year & Irish national kick box team once... a gypsy no 1 european belt contender, hammer crap out of me in UK fight..lol.. I did finish... but relieved of my duties as a member of Irish team due to my defeat. lol!)...

These days... as regards by own interest of self defense on street for ordinary joe on the street against muggers, robbers, or just violent after pub attacks... if one was training a bit in either boxing, kick boxing or Muay Thai with good sparring, & some extra training, topped up monthly in the Geoff Thomson Self Protection Method, which anyone with basic experience can learn from his DVDs, & add in proper krav maga (or the better elements of it) with the best secret of them all, often forgotten easy to learn & proven & tested... WWII & Before 'Combatives" from Col. W.E. Fairbarin, Sykes, Col Rex Applegate, & O Neill. (most were Judo men, & grapplers, but in street never recommend a grappling approach), & the combatives system was develop on the 1920s Street of Shanghai by the Police which all except applegate served in, & developed combatives in over 700 real life street fights, & refined it in WWII... you got a nice mix of "just punches & kicks".... if that is too much.. just jack russell terrier style bit the f**ker! LOL!

(as a finish, of course, in the combat sport ring, if the grappler gets the non grappler on the ground, the non grappler is dead meat... just on street ground is not place to be. )

I am writing an essay in a humorous comical way, based on a true story which happened me as a teenage bruce lee crazy Green Belt, who decided to stand up to an older local "hard man" teen, where I attempted to try stupid "street defense insiders secret" that was doing the rounds in the 80s. It demonstrates a very important point about BS crap being taught, like a martial arts "snake oil" thing, which i rant more about below.

My essay is almost done & is called "Karate me F**Kin' Ar*s" join my krav maga thailand news letter as I will email when post it to my web site in about 3 or 4 weeks. if anything, you get get a laugh at a very stupid me, confronting the bigger proven local "hard man".....coming soon "Karate me F**Kin' Ar*s"

God Bless

G

Edited May 19, 2009 by Gerry290

[Oscheck]

Why kickboxing rules? Because its the most practioned martial art, its easy to learn, and effective and people like to watch it. Its the biggest pool with competition so the most talent keeps coming out. Most k1 and freefight champions are kickboxers who learned additional martials arts. Muy thai is hardly practioned, outside Thailand. Does it make kickboxing the best? Or does it make muy thai beter, because it's kickboxing with some additions?

I've practioned wing chun for some time and watched a comparison fight between the son of my teacher, about 1.70 m, 70 kg (-) against a skilled kickboxer (ran a welknown kickboxing school in Rotterdam) about 1,80 m, 80 kg (+). The kickboxer never got dangerous, because he didn't get the change to, and no the wing chuner didn't knock him out, but he stuck to him like glue and he decided which direction the kickboxers would go, and that was back, back, back, back left, back right. But it wasn't nice to look at.

So if you would organize a competion to make money and entertain people, what would you choose?

Its all about kicks and punches, stabilty, flexibility. And a hard head, if you want them to hit you. If you want to get hit, learn muy thai, it's testosterone driven. If you had any braincells before you started , they're surely gone after

Personally I like aikido, not easy to learn, but it adds something to your personality. Live is like a dance.

But never got any further then two introduction lesson's and reading some books. hehe Too much traffic.

And like stated before, you can be the best, but if someone unexspectedly puts a blade between your ribs...

Surprise is the best system I guess... Or maybe awareness??

Hurting people is easy,

loving them takes some effort.

Dedicated to the 7? security people who tried to kill me Tuesday morning.

[Gerry290]

So if you would organize a competion to make money and entertain people, what would you choose?

And like stated before, you can be the best, but if someone unexspectedly puts a blade between your ribs...

Surprise is the best system I guess... Or maybe awareness??

Hurting people is easy,

loving them takes some effort.

Competition... WWF Hulk Hogan style wrestling -> or whatever its called these days...

this past 20+ years it has consistently been on TV, Cable, Live events, (not that I watch it, but I notice the ads!).

Its like McDonalds... the kids want to go, to the daddies & mommies have to stump up for the tickets 2 adults x 3 kids tickets lol! (I got stranded in Boston airport once, due to snow blizzard, years back with the two vice president level manager of the dude who ran all that... told all about it) LOL!

awareness - yes always --- awareness, avoidance, run like hel_l - always number 1 "Defensive Tactic"

no need for willful fighting on the street. When I mention a street situation, I always work of the fact that awareness, avoidance, etc, run like hel_l, escape, are unavailable at that particular moment, leaving us in unpleasant position of having to go physical.

that wing tsun center line is very good, & my own self learned & probably quite technically my WYT standards incorrect version with blast, if you add an element of it into your boxing punch work, you might be surprised at how effective you can land a punch in btwn the guard of well trained boxer/kick boxer/MT dude (me being of kick boxing origins). Its good to know....i ve used it (my self learned version) & its a nice little ace up sleeve. As is some of older boxing tricks. famous martial artist & leading Combatives instructor from USA, Carl Cestari (just died last year) was an expert on old Bare Knuckle Boxing method, & made some excellent DVDs show how the old skools bare kunckle boxing specific strikes & guard & tactics were used. It is well worth looking into. 1 or 2 tools mastered that few have seen, can reall give your opponent a total "mind &lt;deleted&gt;". train yourself to fight off left & right side (south paw) & switch while sparring, as weird as it sounds, change feet to (south paw) but keep your guard orthodox (takes a bit of practice, & you got to make sure your covered), & you got to work it in gym alot so your smooth & natural with it... do this bizarre weird tactics mid spar & watch your opponents confused look given away by the tell tale eye flick, --- that is your 1 sec window to launch your bomb ;-) all that came via 1980s "Eastern Block" kick boxing trainer who learned from a "USSR" Russian Boxing Olympic coach. He incorporated into late 70s evolvement of kickboxing, Pedar Meijic was his name, had amazing hands, & such skills which he passed in mid - late 80s in seminars in Ireland. V good... not pushing a style its just a few tricks anyone can work out themselves... v effective.

Some of that Wing Tsun I seen is very similar to how western boxing was used up until very approx jack dempsey era finished. in facts he blames his own huge commercial success as the reason much of the art went out of western boxing.... what do i mean? back then there was no flicky jabs like we all do today, it was the Straight Lead a KO punch, with vertical fist & falling (drop) step footwork. right into center line, very hard to see it coming. Championship Fighting by dempsey explains all.... v good tool to have regardless of "style"

&lt;deleted&gt; styles & what is better. ----> none if u do not train. train & enjoy what you like. there always will be someone sooner or later who ll be better.

----

Just a quick question, as I do not really follow sport end too much... but I do not think I saw this in the thread...

in early 60s or (late 50s) did Japan Karate as Kyoshinkai Oas Oyama have a 5 kyoshinkai vs 5 MT fighters challenge which was held in Bangkok?

[EndofDays]

tyson in his prime would destroy a muay thai of equal size and weight, he was just way too strong and ferocious. plus he could take punishment like very few others.

You mean like the way Tyson destroyed the supposedly "washed-up" Holyfield in 1996?

Tyson's prime was the middle to late 1980's. Holyfield's prine WAS 1996. Your point moot.

[bertlamar]

Why kickboxing rules? Because its the most practioned martial art, its easy to learn, and effective and people like to watch it. Its the biggest pool with competition so the most talent keeps coming out. Most k1 and freefight champions are kickboxers who learned additional martials arts. Muy thai is hardly practioned, outside Thailand. Does it make kickboxing the best? Or does it make muy thai beter, because it's kickboxing with some additions?

Not sure where you are from, but where i grew up kickboxing might have existed at one point, but now it is all basically Muay Thai or actual martial arts like Karate, Kung &lt;deleted&gt; etc.

I think it is very very unlikely that Muay Thai is not the largest or one of the largest styles of contact sport world wide; I've watched and seen fighters from all around the world.

As for K1, most of the top fighters tend to have spent some time doing either Muay Thai or whatever that style is called Kyosho something or other? If it was real Muay Thai rules, then we would see all the fighters probably coming from a MT background.

MT is not kickboxing with additions; I don't think the two should be compared; kickboxing (from what I saw of it) is mostly karate with a freestyle boxing element; Muay Thai the kicks and elbows are quite different.

Certainly the majority of bouncers i knew back home, many at least had some understanding of Mauy Thai, and a bunch of Thai guys used to do security at clubs etc, they all work, but MT has the advantage of not causing permanent brutal damage. Training compared to boxing is a whole lot less brutal on the brain as well.

[braverrouge]

We were invited to teach Aikido at Fairtex a few years back.

During our time there I managed to convince some of those MT instructors to join us for fun.

I realized that most of the MT guys reacted very sensetive on wrist locks.

The other way around they didn't feel any thing when I was delivering a punch or other attack on their body.

My point of view for MT is as follow:

In the ring (MT rules)

- Never get in the ring with a MT fighter unless your a MT fighter yourself or you can take lots of pain

- If you still get in the ring, don't try to catch their kicks with your hands or shin bone ... it f__g hurts

The Thais comparing those low kicks on the legs as "Flattening tires"

- Don't let the MT fighter clinch you unless you know how to protect your ribs

Out of the ring (Your rules)

- From the view of an Aikidoka ... Get their wrist (It won't be easy ) and bring them to the ground ASAP or the other way around

- Ground fighters, get them to the ground ASAP and do whatever you think is best

- Boxers and kickers, don't even bother to punch or kick them. It may hurt you more then them. They are quite immune to

those kind of attacks

Conclusion:

- Avoid a fight with a MT guy

It may look very "Chicken" but if I had a choice I wouldn't fight to proof which style is better, regardless of what style my opponent is.

It's like having a table tennis player to compete with tennis player on a golf course using a basket ball.

I wonder which one of them would make the home run first ???

Here's an Aikido excercise I'd been teaching at my beginners class:

- Relax and take one glass of beer on your left or right hand (I prefer Heineken)

- Bring the glass slowly to your mouth without tensing up your muscles in your hand

- Ones the glass has reached your lips, drink from it and put the glass slowly back on the table.

- Repeat this excercise until the glass is empty and refill as often as you can.

After many years of practicing this excercise you will able to apply it as an Aikido technique and also to your every days life

[james24]

that post about top 5 martial artists coming to Thailand and getting knocked out in first round, that sounds completely made up. It depends on how good the fighter is no matter what art or sport they do

Edited May 21, 2009 by james24

[rockhardbkk]

First up, Thais ARE fairly dominant in boxing at the weight levels that they fight at; lightweight and lighter. Plenty of champs including a few hall of famers, Khaosai Galaxy being one if I recall. Successful at an olympic level. what more do you want?

I work with professional boxers in Asia and here's my take on what's been said:

Khaosai is the only Thai ever to have been elected into the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

Thais do not DOMINATE their divisions, however they regularly have decent fighters in the world ratings. Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it's favoritism from the particular sanctioning body.

There is however, a long list of current and former world boxing champions from Thailand...Below is a short list.

Khaosai and Khaokor Galaxy

Samart Payakaroon

Charchai Chionoi

Chatchai Sasakul

Denkasoan Kaovichit

Pongsaklek Wonjongkam

Sirimonkol Singwangcha

Yodsanan Sor Nanthachai

Sot Chitlada

Oleydong Sithsamerchai

Muangchai Kitticasem...

All told there have been around 35-40 world champions from the country.

Generally speaking, boxing gyms are in Muay Thai gyms and some Thais involved in the sports feel the only reason for someone to be in a gym with professional fighters is because they're going to fight. So some gyms don't want people who only come to train for a week or two.

As far as the five foreigners coming to Thailand and all getting knocked out - it's true. It was back in the 70's I believe, and a team of Chinese Muay Thai fighters from Hong Kong came over and got destroyed. A few years back however, a team of Chinese Sanda fighters took on some Thais and the results were split.

Also, to say that Muay Thai is not practiced outside of Thailand is ridiculous. It's practiced all over the world, probably more so than kickboxing.

[Tingnongnoi]

The fights against the Sanda fighters were under Sanda rules though not Muaythai, points higher for sidekicks and throws I believe and the Thai's that did better were from the more clinch orientated camps, rather than the strong kickers.

[braverrouge]

The fights against the Sanda fighters were under Sanda rules though not Muaythai, points higher for sidekicks and throws I believe and the Thai's that did better were from the more clinch orientated camps, rather than the strong kickers.

I wonder how the fight would have ended using traditional MT rules

- No point system, only the last one standing wins or the fighter gives up

[tigerbalm]

I would say traditional boxing would win over Muay Thai most of the time as i find it hard to imagine guy standing on one leg (while the other is high off the ground) would not be prone to a good hard left or a powerhouse right hook, if this was to happen he would only have one place to go south to the deck, his ability to duck and dive twist and turn whlst standing on one leg would be zero, you try purching on one leg and kicking out with the other and try to bob and weave, i just tried it and got some strange looks from the missus, Stupid farang written all over her face but we did have a laugh about it.

I do like to watch boxing and watch Muay every sat sun if i get the chance but it some times frustrates me that there is to much kicking holding and not enough punching. i keep finding my self saying hit him go on hit him (My mean streak coming out)

There must be some Thais (Fly weight, Welter or Bantam weight) that compete at high levels of traditional boxing around the world how do they fair?

And there are more than a few Farrang who compete in Muay thai boxing how do the farrang fair up against Thais?

[rockhardbkk]

I would say traditional boxing would win over Muay Thai most of the time as i find it hard to imagine guy standing on one leg (while the other is high off the ground) would not be prone to a good hard left or a powerhouse right hook, if this was to happen he would only have one place to go south to the deck, his ability to duck and dive twist and turn whlst standing on one leg would be zero, you try purching on one leg and kicking out with the other and try to bob and weave, i just tried it and got some strange looks from the missus, Stupid farang written all over her face but we did have a laugh about it.

I do like to watch boxing and watch Muay every sat sun if i get the chance but it some times frustrates me that there is to much kicking holding and not enough punching. i keep finding my self saying hit him go on hit him (My mean streak coming out)

There must be some Thais (Fly weight, Welter or Bantam weight) that compete at high levels of traditional boxing around the world how do they fair?

And there are more than a few Farrang who compete in Muay thai boxing how do the farrang fair up against Thais?

As I posted earlier, there are a fair number of world ranked boxers from Thailand. The best fighters are from the Jr. Welterweight division (140 lbs.) down to the Minimumweight division (105 lbs.)

As far as the Farang vs. Thai - there are quite a few foreigners who are as good or better than Thais, however, in general, the Thais are still the best Muay Thai fighters in the world.

[Oscheck]

Chok Dee,

Great sport aikido in which bar is it practiced?

I'm from the Netherlands, like many champions in kickboxing, K1, freefight, not that I am one. My style is to set myself free and run! Like hel_l if I have to. :run: (no smiley for that) Like in any style, you always fight yourself. I don't like fighting.

MT is a regional style also practiced in the neighboring countries, where they call it different names. Kickboxing is a mixture of MT like styles and western boxing with exclusion of using knees and elbows.

And in history wheels and printing is invented in many different places and times, or just borrowed. Its impossible to compare styles like stated before, they all come with different rules, and under their rules the style excelles. And... if... And if the cow passed bye, you look 'm in the @ss, like my former father in law liked to say.

Chok Dee to u all, I'm going to practice my newly acquired aikido form, not lifting a star but a chang instead.

And if you have to fight, let it end in what the french call a 'petit mort'. So make love, not war!

[Gerry290]

Hi

Can anyone with a good memory of the 1980s clarify this for me. Mid 1980s...

I am confused on this, as I think I am getting our farang champ mixed with with a different farang western boxer who fought a Thai (western boxing)...

Ok my question is...

Does anyone remember is mid 1980s Irish Boxer Barry McGuigan fought a Thai in the mid 1980s?

(McGuigan would have been of suitable weight).

I did check McGuigans fight record... not sure if I missed any fights, & found no Thai. I do not think it was for a World Title fight.. or could me not finding reference to this, be non scantioned fight etc??

I remember watching this, as the Thai entered the ring, traditional way climbing over the ropes & I m very sure in traditional costume of some sort, in the ring & Thai also was a Muay Thai Champion I remember commentator saying. (perhaps Harry Carpenter on Sports Night... lol).

Barry McGuigan was getting to his peak around this time, & for some reason I keep thinking McGuigan fought this Thai.

Its along shot... but can anyone shed any light on this for me please?

Kind Thanks

G

[Tingnongnoi]

Charlie Magri fought Sot Chitlada?, would have been around early 80's I think

[spysee]

Muay Thai beats boxing and martial arts, its the best striking style there is.

Brazilian jujitsu beats all

[Gerry290]

Charlie Magri fought Sot Chitlada?, would have been around early 80's I think

Hi thanks for that lead. I will check into this. I ll look on youtube.com I might find a video clip of this fight, as to this day with video like memory I can see the Thai fighter (in my op) climbing over the ropes of boxing ring. Since I grew up in arse end of Ireland, seeing such a thing in the 1980s, was amazingly strange, hence vivid memory in video style. Now if I was as good at remembering names lol!!

I think he even had a sword on his back (fuzzy re that part).

thank you.. off i go to youtube to find vid clip of Charlie Magri fought Sot Chitlada?, around early 80's

cheers

gerry

[Tingnongnoi]

the fight was in London in 1985 so could well be it?

[bertlamar]

I would say traditional boxing would win over Muay Thai most of the time as i find it hard to imagine guy standing on one leg (while the other is high off the ground) would not be prone to a good hard left or a powerhouse right hook, if this was to happen he would only have one place to go south to the deck, his ability to duck and dive twist and turn whlst standing on one leg would be zero, you try purching on one leg and kicking out with the other and try to bob and weave, i just tried it and got some strange looks from the missus, Stupid farang written all over her face but we did have a laugh about it.

I do like to watch boxing and watch Muay every sat sun if i get the chance but it some times frustrates me that there is to much kicking holding and not enough punching. i keep finding my self saying hit him go on hit him (My mean streak coming out)

There must be some Thais (Fly weight, Welter or Bantam weight) that compete at high levels of traditional boxing around the world how do they fair?

And there are more than a few Farrang who compete in Muay thai boxing how do the farrang fair up against Thais?

As I posted earlier, there are a fair number of world ranked boxers from Thailand. The best fighters are from the Jr. Welterweight division (140 lbs.) down to the Minimumweight division (105 lbs.)

As far as the Farang vs. Thai - there are quite a few foreigners who are as good or better than Thais, however, in general, the Thais are still the best Muay Thai fighters in the world.

The K1 is a good chance to see some decent boxers and all of them have had to learn some MT skills; boxing is not enough if you are allowed to kick; not surprising to learn that kind of like playing rugby and only kicking the ball without picking it up; if you are allowed to use another weapon, you do so.

The better K1 fighters especially in the K1 Max cross train and the hand skills of the MT fighters worldwide is a lot higher in some fights outside of Thailand IMHO, partly because there are no elbows in some fights, and partly because of the scoring; as I understand here in Thailand somehow the scoring favours certain styles.

In his heyday, you look at a MT fighter like Fanta or Sammart they had great hands, just sometimes they chose to use them (or not).

With regards to a hook- a hook is a medium distance punch, and the length of a leg is far greater so to land the hook would require coming in through the kick if you can get that lousy explanation - in addition good MT fighters have the ability to cover up and also to rotate their upper bodies back a little, so it is possible to kick and still be out of range of most punches especially upper cuts and hooks. A weak kicker is a sitter for a cross I guess but good technique means the jaw is covered from anything other than a really direct cross on the button; should on one side, standard boxing glove up on the other.

And the art of kicking anyway is to throw it not randomly, but when there is an opening to do so; e.g. guy throughs a jap drifts in; good kicker drifts to one side avoids the punch and counter kicks for instance.....many more defenses in boxing than bob and weave, as can also just block or move right out of the way; especially since in MT the distance is slightly greater perhaps than in boxing and the angles are a bit different. Also, a push kick is an easy way to totally screw a boxer, they come in and you just push them back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2XqMXbQGt4

If you watch, this guy (my hero) has it all; nice awareness of distance, nice cover in the kicks, great timing, movie star looks.

Edited June 8, 2009 by bertlamar

[MrHammer]

Muay Thai beats boxing and martial arts, its the best striking style there is.

Brazilian jujitsu beats all

On the ground that is! But its not very practical for use in self defence. Bad idea to be rolling around on the ground.

Muay Thai number one go go! Everyone who's in Thailand and fit should go for some training!

[EndofDays]

Muay Thai beats boxing and martial arts, its the best striking style there is.

Brazilian jujitsu beats all

On the ground that is! But its not very practical for use in self defence. Bad idea to be rolling around on the ground.

Muay Thai number one go go! Everyone who's in Thailand and fit should go for some training!

Real fights, fighting for your life, ALWAYS ends up on the ground. If you are tyrying to kill someone you want him face down on the ground with his back to you.

[bertlamar]

Muay Thai beats boxing and martial arts, its the best striking style there is.

Brazilian jujitsu beats all

On the ground that is! But its not very practical for use in self defence. Bad idea to be rolling around on the ground.

Muay Thai number one go go! Everyone who's in Thailand and fit should go for some training!

Real fights, fighting for your life, ALWAYS ends up on the ground. If you are tyrying to kill someone you want him face down on the ground with his back to you.

average street fight not the same as a fight for your life, fortunately most of us will see the first one, not the second one. In general, guys who knew how to grapple told me that a street fight you would try to avoid ending up on the ground unless you knew it was a 1 : 1 situation, otherwise you are relatively less mobile with a bunch of guys able to stick the boot into you.

Absolutely though 1 on 1 facing the wrong way with someone pounding the back of your head is about the worst way to end up other than the guy having a gun or similar.

The few street brawls or confrontations I've had the misfortune to be involved with, not one has ended up on the ground, because most street fights IMHO are a few hits and that's it.

Edited June 25, 2009 by bertlamar