The Mistress, Aka Number 2

[geriatrickid]

If there are kids involved, I bet some of them would not be thrilled to find out what Dad was up to. My friend took it quite hard when his father left the mother for a mistress. He still won't talk to his father. He takes care of his mum, who went into a deep depression. He has to work 2 jobs to take care of his 2 sisters as well, all because of what Dad did. I've asked him why he didn't go kick his dad in the nuts for this and his reply was that his father will realize what he did when he is alone in his older years. Personally, I'd still have kicked the dad in the nuts.

[a2396]

I wonder if anyone has a more extensive insight into this mia culture? My current GF apparently is (and has been) "on duty for 7 years in such a situation. However, this hasn't stopped her from becoming involved with me and likely others. However, her interest in me, as well as the amount of time spent with me is limited. I think in part because she is quite in love with him. She has several other GF's who are also serving in similar capacity to Thai men. It would seem to me that there is a whole "sub-culture" of this activity and there are gradations of mia nois as to full-time, part-time, etc. Some may be requited to be exclusive to the man (the main sponsor) and others may not or possibly they are playing around without his knowledge.

[sbk]

I only know the area I live and the idea that the mia noi is servicing her man or has other men on the side just wouldn't fly where I live. Its too small and everyone knows everyone else and everyone else's business.

A mia noi, as far as locals are concerned, is not a gik, or something on the side but another wife and is treated as such. Often with their own house, and the man splits his time between the houses of his legal wife and his mia nois. Men who cheat or play around do not consider the girls mia nois and I am sure the girls do not consider themselves mia nois. The term "sponsor" would be considered quite insulting to the women I know who are mia nois as they do not consider themselves as prostitutes in any sense of the word but are, rather, the second wife and are treated as such by both the men and the community.

Perhaps Bangkok is different, perhaps Koh Phangan is different but I do know if you were to use such descriptive terms regarding these women as you have done here you would be committing a grievous insult to the ladies in question.

[a2396]

I only know the area I live and the idea that the mia noi is servicing her man or has other men on the side just wouldn't fly where I live. Its too small and everyone knows everyone else and everyone else's business.

A mia noi, as far as locals are concerned, is not a gik, or something on the side but another wife and is treated as such. Often with their own house, and the man splits his time between the houses of his legal wife and his mia nois. Men who cheat or play around do not consider the girls mia nois and I am sure the girls do not consider themselves mia nois. The term "sponsor" would be considered quite insulting to the women I know who are mia nois as they do not consider themselves as prostitutes in any sense of the word but are, rather, the second wife and are treated as such by both the men and the community.

Perhaps Bangkok is different, perhaps Koh Phangan is different but I do know if you were to use such descriptive terms regarding these women as you have done here you would be committing a grievous insult to the ladies in question.

Thanks for your reply. As far as I know, the woman I mention has no house or car, but is subsidised by a certain amount per month, which is not great. She has had this relationship for 7 years, according to her. He also takes care of her family from time to time. The man is in BKK and she is in an Issan city. She and her best GF do have other liasons with men. From what I have seen of this, it is a rather vague and undefined activity, with many gradations. It is frustrating to me because I would like a more involved relationship with this woman, who has put set limits on it and stated "I don't like anyone love me to much". She says she wants her freedom, etc, etc. I have decided I will just try not to take her to seriously.

[sbk]

Like I said, I only know about where I live but here, the relationship you describe would not be considered a mia noi. A mia noi is a wife to whom the husband owes the same responsibilities as he would his legal wife. As said, my husband's cousin has several wives, two of whom I consider friends. They all get along and he splits his time among them. And none of these women are with him because he pays them, he certainly doesn't have enough money to pay all of these women to be idle. He works, the wives all work.

I must point out that all of his wives were well aware of the other before agreeing to enter into the relationship. Not all men are so honest but then those men usually don't have such successful relationships either.

My neighbor had two wives, one in town, one next door. Kids by each wife are all about the same age (all adults now btw) and the only time the neighbor wife got upset was when she felt he was not dividing his time equally between her and the other wife. He stayed with both wives until my neighbor died from cancer. Now he has just the one.

[bina]

from my own (albeit) unusual experience a mia noi is a wife - she cannot play around, she is recognized, at least within her own community as the wife of... . she is not supported by the guy as a 'plaything' but is in all respects, a wife (has respect etc).

a friend of mine from the past recently had a friend of hers call me to say she had finally (at age 40+) had a baby with her husband, the husband has a mia leung in sackon nawan and she (the mia noi) from nongkhai area... she is now in bangkok...

it took several years but the main wife has come to terms, probably as the mia noi is a really sweet, low keyed lady. the major wife had lived w/o husband for almost 10 ys while he was here in israel as a foreign worker so living alone was never a problem... and the mia noi met her husband here.... (not talking about my past 'partner' who went back to live with his wife)..

a regular soap opera....

bna

israel

[a2396]

Like I said, I only know about where I live but here, the relationship you describe would not be considered a mia noi. A mia noi is a wife to whom the husband owes the same responsibilities as he would his legal wife. As said, my husband's cousin has several wives, two of whom I consider friends. They all get along and he splits his time among them. And none of these women are with him because he pays them, he certainly doesn't have enough money to pay all of these women to be idle. He works, the wives all work.

I must point out that all of his wives were well aware of the other before agreeing to enter into the relationship. Not all men are so honest but then those men usually don't have such successful relationships either.

My neighbor had two wives, one in town, one next door. Kids by each wife are all about the same age (all adults now btw) and the only time the neighbor wife got upset was when she felt he was not dividing his time equally between her and the other wife. He stayed with both wives until my neighbor died from cancer. Now he has just the one.

Well, perhaps my lady is "twisting the truth" a bit concerning her status, which is certainly not what you are describing. She may have been more like a standard GF (paid or otherwise) to this guy. She claims he has said he will take care of her for the rest of her life. This kind of promise leads me to think she had/has a baby by him, although she will not admit to such. I doubt if I will ever be revealed the real facts of her situation. She is just to mysterious.

[Patsycat]

I'm available between 5 and 7 weekdays, after noon on Saturday and never on Sunday. I am also expensive and expect to be treated well - financially and emotionally. I noticed the latest Hermès handbag is quite à la mode...

[torrenova]

I think we are talking about something completely different here man..... what you are describing is simply a prostitute (I don't care how polished she is). Even to the Thai guy who has her on salary for once or twice a month visits. We were talking about 2nd wives.

To most people, the description of the mia noi, though translated as small wife or commonly 2nd wife, conjures up a man of some means who has a wife and family but who, rather than hiring prostitutes or having a sequence of girlfriends, chooses to have one girlfriend who he supports financially. Higher up the wealth ladder, the girlfriend or mia noi (as they are interchangeable terms in the layman's eyes) may well have accommodation at her disposal, an expense account, an income and transport. A lateral thinker would perhaps term her a prostitute who can either service many for X baht a month or receive X baht a month from one suitor.

Some may argue that all mia nois are effective prostitutes as the basis for the relationship will undoubtedly have been the infidelity of the married man. Even if the woman instigated the affair, she chose to be second as opposed to trying to be first, probably for less and I means less in material terms. Thus it comes back to money once again.

If Thailand had 40m women and 20m men then it would be far more widespread but as the population is largely balanced, it must, at some level, mean that some men purchase more than their allocated share to the detriment of those with fewer resources.

I do not think of prostitution as anything other than a different profession and a worthy one. I have employed thousands of prostitutes. I have many friends who are prostitutes. Just out of interest, what is a girl who has a guy paying for all and sundry one night, in the vain hope that he might get lucky when the girl knew she was not even going to divulge her phone number ? With a prostitute yo know what you are getting when you pay your money.

Perhaps some mia nois think like some mistresses in the west, that the guy will leave his wife eventually and in the meanwhile why not live a relatively luxurious or carefree life at his expense.

I will consider adapting my interpretation if someone can recall an instance where a mia noi actually pays the guy to help keep his first family.

[sbk]

Your description does not fit any mia noi relationship I know torrenova. not one. But then perhaps rural Thailand is a different kettle of fish than urban Thailand.

Just as a secondary point, my husband's cousin does not refer to any of his wives as a mia noi. He considers them his wife. Not mia noi.

[Samuian]

I know a Thai who has 3 wives. #1 is his legal wife and is in her 50s. #2 is in her 30s and #3 is about 20.

All 3 wives live in the same house. He seems happy and I've never heard him complain or speak of any problems at home.

The majority of other married Thais I know have girlfriends or mias which leads me to speculate that there must be a lot of guys who don't have a female partner at all, or a lot of ladies are doubling up or there simply wouldn't be enough to go around (might explain why there are so many katoeys...making up the numbers?).

You got a valid point there in fact!

It's all about ego, too - on both sides!

[cathyy]

Out here in Isaan, I know a mia noi. She lives in an expensive house, and has a car, paid for by him. She gets a regular sum of money, too. Her "husband" is the father of her child. He spends as much time with her as he can, and takes her on trips. It seems be exactly what sbk describes, not what torrenova describes.

[Lami]

the description of the mia noi, though translated as small wife or commonly 2nd wife, conjures up a man of some means who has a wife and family but who, rather than hiring prostitutes or having a sequence of girlfriends, chooses to have one girlfriend who he supports financially. Higher up the wealth ladder, the girlfriend or mia noi (as they are interchangeable terms in the layman's eyes) may well have accommodation at her disposal, an expense account, an income and transport.

Undoubtedly, I think this description fits the role of quite a few urban "mia nois". The "mia noi" label does seem quite elastic, though. That's likely because it "gives face" to all of those involved in or affected by a variety of arrangements .

Of course, urban life allows much greater anonymity to both the men and the women engaging in these scenarios.

Broadly, I see the "mia noi" label becoming more a euphemistic term of use in describing a man's extra-marital relationships than a description of a role truly accepted in the social structure as it was/is in times past or in particular communities, such as some Muslim or some very traditionally Chinese ones (amongst others).

I'd add that where means permit, there seem often to be more than one "mia noi", not at all known to one another (though their existence is expected and accepted). The women make sure a substantial or ongoing commitment of some kind is made, and in good Thai style, few questions are asked.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Lami

[alaina]

I've taught about a half dozen children of mia nois. I can't say that I know all about the "marriage" aspect of the couple, the experience that I have had with the kids does not reflect well on them. These kids that I have taught go to expensive schools but do show signs of emotional neglect. When I have talked about these students with Thai colleagues and I mention that they are products of a mia noi relationship, they are quick to put together a list of the rest of the child's problems.

It's a unique set of problems. I have had students in families where the biological father is gone and there is a (good) stepfather in the picture and those kids seem much healthier than being part of a #2 (or 3, or...) marriage.

[ernest1966]

PattayaParent/Lami,

Its a widely misconceived idea that muslims can have 4 wives. It depends on the country and culture of the muslim community. It was done originally (so I am led to believe) because of the crusades and the lack of men folk and the need to keep the population up.

And, more than one woman (I'm gonna get crucified here) well, it may be a blessing but I am sure it could turn to a problem.... (phew, i think i saved myself there!)

[F1fanatic]

I only know the area I live and the idea that the mia noi is servicing her man or has other men on the side just wouldn't fly where I live. Its too small and everyone knows everyone else and everyone else's business.

A mia noi, as far as locals are concerned, is not a gik, or something on the side but another wife and is treated as such. Often with their own house, and the man splits his time between the houses of his legal wife and his mia nois. Men who cheat or play around do not consider the girls mia nois and I am sure the girls do not consider themselves mia nois. The term "sponsor" would be considered quite insulting to the women I know who are mia nois as they do not consider themselves as prostitutes in any sense of the word but are, rather, the second wife and are treated as such by both the men and the community.

Perhaps Bangkok is different, perhaps Koh Phangan is different but I do know if you were to use such descriptive terms regarding these women as you have done here you would be committing a grievous insult to the ladies in question.

Another term is polygamy.

I find it interesting that you find this practice not only acceptable but find it offensive that someone else would find it unacceptable.

[sbk]

I find it interesting that you seem to assume I would allow it for myself

Nope, I know the women involved and find it offensive that someone would refer to them that way. To me, they are human beings with feelings and deserving of dignity and respect. Not stereotypes to be judged.

[neverdie]

I'm available between 5 and 7 weekdays, after noon on Saturday and never on Sunday. I am also expensive and expect to be treated well - financially and emotionally. I noticed the latest Hermès handbag is quite à la mode...

Yo Patsycat....should I feel honoured that you threw me a FREEBIE then??

Where does this leave our relationship?

Yes, irregardless of any of your decisions you can still continue to shower me with gifts and good times

love nd

ps: Please keep our arrangement secret.....You know how upset SBK gets when she thinks she might have to share me

Edited May 1, 2009 by neverdie

[sbk]

ps: Please keep our arrangement secret.....You know how upset SBK gets when she thinks she might have to share me

Thats what I like about you neverdie, your never-ending sense of optimism

[slaninaj]

Well I am new on this board, but I can tell you this that was one of the main reason my wife want to marry a foreigner. because she did not want her husband to have a second wife. I far as I know it is common, do to my believe there is far more lady's then men in Thailand and a lot of lady's want some kind of relationship.

[neverdie]

ps: Please keep our arrangement secret.....You know how upset SBK gets when she thinks she might have to share me

Thats what I like about you neverdie, your never-ending sense of optimism

I thought it was because I was handsome sexy man .

for you sbk

[maccaroni man]

If there are kids involved, I bet some of them would not be thrilled to find out what Dad was up to. My friend took it quite hard when his father left the mother for a mistress. He still won't talk to his father. He takes care of

his mum, who went into a deep depression. He has to work 2 jobs to take care of his 2 sisters as well, all because

his mother is a drama queen and needs a kick in the bum to get her head out of her ass and take care of her children.

[IanForbes]

I do not think of prostitution as anything other than a different profession and a worthy one. I have employed thousands of prostitutes. I have many friends who are prostitutes. Just out of interest, what is a girl who has a guy paying for all and sundry one night, in the vain hope that he might get lucky when the girl knew she was not even going to divulge her phone number ? With a prostitute yo know what you are getting when you pay your money.

Interesting topic. I tend to agree with torrenova on his thoughts about Thai ladies of the night. It is a worthy profession that provides a need. I also have good friends in that "trade" and I NEVER look down on any of them. We do many things together besides the obvious.

That said however, doesn't Thailand have an ancient tradition where wealthier men had more than one wife? What about the ancient King of Siam and all HIS wives? Or, am I wrong and they were only concubines? But, what is the difference between a concubine and a wife if they all were looked after by the same man?

I believe that SOME men in Thailand are just carrying on an ancient tradition. Whether it works well for everyone involved would depend entirely on the those people involved. It certainly wouldn't work for me and I'm sure it wouldn't work for most women on this forum. But, it obviously works for some people or it wouldn't be happening.

The arrangements made between men and women should be nobody's business but the people involved. There are all shades from almost white to almost black, and everything in between. Most men pay one way or the other for the company of women, whether that means financially looking after the women on regular basis, taking them out for supper, taking care of her children from a previous relationship, spending time with the woman's family when he would rather be golfing, or flat out paying for sex. It's always a compromise whether it's enjoyable or not. Call it any name you want but it doesn't change the facts. Once the lust is gone, most marriages turn out to be a mutually accepted business arrangement. Whether they continue to exist together in a friendly manner doesn't change fact that it is a compromise based on a variety of factors of which money is just one part of the equation.

[F1fanatic]

I do not think of prostitution as anything other than a different profession and a worthy one. I have employed thousands of prostitutes. I have many friends who are prostitutes. Just out of interest, what is a girl who has a guy paying for all and sundry one night, in the vain hope that he might get lucky when the girl knew she was not even going to divulge her phone number ? With a prostitute yo know what you are getting when you pay your money.

Interesting topic. I tend to agree with torrenova on his thoughts about Thai ladies of the night. It is a worthy profession that provides a need. I also have good friends in that "trade" and I NEVER look down on any of them. We do many things together besides the obvious.

That said however, doesn't Thailand have an ancient tradition where wealthier men had more than one wife? What about the ancient King of Siam and all HIS wives? Or, am I wrong and they were only concubines? But, what is the difference between a concubine and a wife if they all were looked after by the same man?

I believe that SOME men in Thailand are just carrying on an ancient tradition. Whether it works well for everyone involved would depend entirely on the those people involved. It certainly wouldn't work for me and I'm sure it wouldn't work for most women on this forum. But, it obviously works for some people or it wouldn't be happening.

The arrangements made between men and women should be nobody's business but the people involved. There are all shades from almost white to almost black, and everything in between. Most men pay one way or the other for the company of women, whether that means financially looking after the women on regular basis, taking them out for supper, taking care of her children from a previous relationship, spending time with the woman's family when he would rather be golfing, or flat out paying for sex. It's always a compromise whether it's enjoyable or not. Call it any name you want but it doesn't change the facts. Once the lust is gone, most marriages turn out to be a mutually accepted business arrangement. Whether they continue to exist together in a friendly manner doesn't change fact that it is a compromise based on a variety of factors of which money is just one part of the equation.

You're assuming of course, that the woman earns a lot less than the man and that the relationship revolves around his money.

Its clearly going to come as a shock to you to learn that in the West, many women earn comparable amounts to their partner. The relationship rarely revolves around money.

Sorry - I know we're getting off-topic here, but the last post demanded a reality check!

[sbk]

Gotta agree with f1 on this one too. I think that you are applying your experiences to relationships and assuming that because in your experience they turned into mutually beneficial business arrangements that they all do.

They don't.

[IanForbes]

You're assuming of course, that the woman earns a lot less than the man and that the relationship revolves around his money.

Its clearly going to come as a shock to you to learn that in the West, many women earn comparable amounts to their partner. The relationship rarely revolves around money.

Sorry - I know we're getting off-topic here, but the last post demanded a reality check!

You are not off topic. I was just pointing out that there hundreds of factors why people (male and female, male and male, female and female) live together. It is a mutually accepted transaction that you can give any name you want to. It doesn't matter which person has the money and pays the bills, or if they contribute equally. It doesn't matter if the man gives the partner some spending money to do with as they wish. Many people are totally irresponsible with money and have to be put on a set budget or they quickly go into debt. My first wife was like that and it drove me nuts. I was the soul source of the family income... even though she was a trained nurse who chose not to work.

The original question, as I understand it, was about the old fashioned Thai tradition where a man had several wives and how they worked out. If they work out then I say no harm done. If they DON'T work out then something has to change. Unfortunately, most people are not willing to change enough to suit their partner. Or, in this case... partners. I can think of many reasons why a man or a woman might have a lover on the side, but not split up the original marriage. I can also see why the spouse might turn a blind eye to the arrangement. It's certainly not the norm and would be totally unacceptable to 95% of most couples, but obviously it DOES happen.

And, it IS possible to love more than one person equally, but in a different fashion. We can love our parents, we can love our children and we can love a long time friend. There may be no sexual passion left for a long time marriage partner, but that doesn't mean there isn't any love for that person.

[tulipgirl]

I can understand the Mia Noi situation, perhaps because of my French ancestry. After a while, a person may get a little bored with their partner, even though one may not have arguments or anything negative. If there is no need to divorce, I think it is possible to be committed to one person for life and have a lover as well, male or female, concubine, mia noi, whatever you want to call him or her.

I have several Thai friends who have fathers with Mia Nois. They tell me so when I ask them how many brothers and sisters they have.

“Well, I have one sister who is the child of my father and mother, but I also have 8 sisters and brothers but they are the children of my father and his 5 mia nois.”

I hear this more than occasionally; it appears to be the norm. They are not always rich.

According to a physician-friend, about 50% of his colleagues have one or more Mia Nois.

I must admit that I might be one of few women who was happily married in the Netherlands to a Chinese physician and very much in love but I had a male lover for six years. My husband knew about our friendship and accepted. My husband died in an accident after 3 years, while my lover got a girlfriend. I decided to move to Asia.

In Asia I told a boyfriend I wouldn’t mind if he would have a Mia Noi after a while, provided I could have a male concubine (is there’s a word for a male Mia Noi?). Controversial, perhaps, but normal in Asia for many people who can afford it, and also sometimes practical. As long as all parties agree with the arrangement.

In Bangkok I lived in a high-rise full of Mia Nois, often with children, waiting for their men in their big cars to visit them a few times a week. They would stay home and watch television all day long. Not very interesting, but financial security and perhaps love might bond those people to their masters. If the Mia Noi can find a better master, the man might be in tears. Some girls had more than one male sponsor and the men didn’t know about those arrangements. The girls kept a whole administration. Mister 1 likes this, Mister 2 likes that etc.

I think in the west those arrangements are unacceptable but in Asia more likely to occur.

[snuggzzz]

In most countries there are many 'Mia Noi', the man sets up the arrangement with or without his wife's knowledge. It's called 'affairs', a 'bit on the side', plus other names.

In the UK it is accepted in some households that they have an 'open marriage' thereby allowing each partner to a lover. These according to the statistics invariably 'Fail'. I must comment that no one appears to knows the cold hearted statistician. I have known of many colleagues who meet up regularly with friends of the opposite sex to relax and for mutual 'fun time'.

It is part of our rich cultures, particularly when West meets East for both men and women to look for 'fun times', it is much better organised here in Thailand,

[DaleBlue]

My Thai bf and I are not married, we just stay together. He has a very close childhood lady friend in Chonburi. Let just call her Miss X.

Miss X come from a wealthy chinese family. Since my bf introduce us, Miss X and I have been very good friend, and we often go to do the usual lady things together.

I suspect my bf and Miss X do have sex form time to time. Some time I slip in the question when he is least expected, he just joke and change the subject (which he is very good at).

I am not sure if I should ask Miss X about this. What if I am wrong? Will I upset Miss X? She is now a good friend of mine, and I do not know if that will be an insult to her.

[venturalaw]

My Thai bf and I are not married, we just stay together. He has a very close childhood lady friend in Chonburi. Let just call her Miss X.

Miss X come from a wealthy chinese family. Since my bf introduce us, Miss X and I have been very good friend, and we often go to do the usual lady things together.

I suspect my bf and Miss X do have sex form time to time. Some time I slip in the question when he is least expected, he just joke and change the subject (which he is very good at).

I am not sure if I should ask Miss X about this. What if I am wrong? Will I upset Miss X? She is now a good friend of mine, and I do not know if that will be an insult to her.

You pose an interesting scenario. I think for your own peace of mind you should find out. There are 2 ways. Either from him, or from Miss X. Since you have tried with him (although not using a more serious direct approach since you allow him to 'joke' his way out of the question), I would seek the information from her.

There are many ways to do this without offending her. Start talking about their relationship with her - i.e. why did it not progress to a romantic relationship. You tell her that you want to know so that you are able to better know her (which is the truth). Tell her how close you are to him and that you wish to know all about him to better be able to make him happy. Behave as though (and this may be true in any event) that finding out if they are sexually involved it would not have a negative impact on your relationship with either one of them, but in fact could bring you all closer.

Since you are wondering about it, isn't it better for you to find out once and for all?