Raising Other's Children

[haha]

my 2 cents...

when you make generalizations about people, you are expressing discrimination.

discrimination is a problem in this world.  in the extreme, it is termed "racist".

most people who display "racist" attitudes are not aware that they are being "racist".  many when told they are racist will say that there is nothing wrong with being racist.

awareness is the solution.  reaching the "next level".

the journey starts with being curious, and asking questions.  understanding the evil inherent in discriminations to the extreme.  and yes.

..it is evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Racist is a word you clearly do not understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others." ..definition from www.dictionary.com

when someone who is NOT thai passes judgment on ALL thais without REALLY knowing any thais, what do you call that?

when someone announces that thai people don't like taking care of other people's children, what are they trying to say?

...like I said. people who are racist don't know they are racist. ..even when told they are exhibiting such behavior.

people should be judged on an individual basis.

yes, some people whether they be thai, chinese, japanese, american, etc. don't like to take care of other people's children.

nuff said.

[bina]

race does account for differences among people sorry to inform you; it is only the additional connotations that you have added that become 'racist' .... no one mentioned superior or inferior, however, race /ethnic background do make a person who she/he is and then environment add on.... genetic diseases are race/ethnic identified (tay sachs, sickle cell, etc etc etc)

no one is being racist when they talk about social/ethnic/religious norms... they become racists when those same norms are used as fuel to say: we are better, superior, more intelligent, more normal, less primitive bla bla bla.....

no one here is judging any one (at least not me as your token israeli/american /ashkenazi /kibbutznik/non religious jew).... but at least by the labels i give myself, you may get a clue as to my background, norms etc... although i am also , i hope , a unique individual....who also happens to be the 'mia noi' of a thai foreign worker, and i try to see the world thru my eyes, and thai eyes....

so dont lecture me or any one else about race, the original question here raised interesting points and all this is now entirely off subject

'nuff said

bina

[chonabot]

race does account for differences among people sorry to inform you; it is only the additional connotations that you have added that become 'racist' .... no one mentioned superior or inferior, however, race /ethnic background do make a person who she/he is and then environment add on.... genetic diseases are race/ethnic  identified (tay sachs, sickle cell, etc etc etc)

no one is being racist when they talk about social/ethnic/religious norms... they become racists when those same norms are used as fuel to say: we are better, superior, more intelligent, more normal, less primitive bla bla bla.....

no one here is judging any one (at least not me as your token israeli/american /ashkenazi /kibbutznik/non religious jew).... but at least by the labels i give myself, you may get a clue as to my background, norms etc... although i am also , i hope , a unique individual....who also happens to be the 'mia noi' of a thai foreign worker, and i try to see the world thru my eyes, and thai eyes....

so dont lecture me  or any one else about race, the original question here raised interesting points and all this is now entirely off subject

'nuff said

bina

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You beat me to it Bina , nice post!

People are too quick to throw this label around and thus stifle any new thinking into ways of understanding other cultures. We ARE different , if not the world would be a very sterile and colourless place.

Sometimes these differences cause a lack of understanding/cohesion , sometimes when we ask questions that may help us to better understand, people , possibly scared of this knowledge , will label us incorrectly ( Mr HaHA).

End result = confusion and ignorance .

Edited January 28, 2005 by chonabot

[kat]

race does account for differences among people sorry to inform you; it is only the additional connotations that you have added that become 'racist' .... no one mentioned superior or inferior, however, race /ethnic background do make a person who she/he is and then environment add on.... genetic diseases are race/ethnic  identified (tay sachs, sickle cell, etc etc etc)

no one is being racist when they talk about social/ethnic/religious norms... they become racists when those same norms are used as fuel to say: we are better, superior, more intelligent, more normal, less primitive bla bla bla.....

no one here is judging any one (at least not me as your token israeli/american /ashkenazi /kibbutznik/non religious jew).... but at least by the labels i give myself, you may get a clue as to my background, norms etc... although i am also , i hope , a unique individual....who also happens to be the 'mia noi' of a thai foreign worker, and i try to see the world thru my eyes, and thai eyes....

so dont lecture me  or any one else about race, the original question here raised interesting points and all this is now entirely off subject

'nuff said

bina

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I have a lot to say on this topic, but Bina beat me to it. Well spoken, Bina.

I will just say that I am mixed-race by blood, and mixed-heritage by adoption (and NOT raised by my biological father, but my adopted father). My parents, extended family, friends, neighborhood, and socio-economic background are black and latino. I am biologically of mixed Asian, Indian, and Eastern European blood; and, oh yeah - I look mostly white to most people. I have had to deal with the issue of race and identity when most human beings are still figuring out where to go potty. I've also been educated in the Northeast area of the states, when multiculturalism and political correctness were at their peak. I was one of their loudest proponents at one time. How we learn

What I'm saying is that your moral compass of what is fair and just may not change, but the more you learn, the less the world is black and white, or politically correct; it just is. And this "we are all the same, we are the world" business is catchy as a song, but tells us nothing about each other or the world. But it does remind us that we are all humans on the planet together. "Everybody's all the same" can also be a sign of guilt or fear of difference, where someone cannot discuss them in a confident matter. Just about any person of color knows this, and all discuss the differences of other people of color, races, and cultures.

And actually, for the record, we are not discussing race here, we are discussing culture.

By the way, I am going to respond to another poster's comments directed at me. I'm sorry if I have wasted others time with this previously. If you are tired of it, skip this edited part. My comments are embedded in the quote with asterisks:

Let me try and start again to try and understand your question and it's point. You've already stated your opinion, so that's not a question. And, no, that is not a flame 

Your question was a simple yes or no question, right? Do Thai men......? Right?

I answered sincerely and honestly because you asked for responses. My point was clearly that this is a yes or no question that can have no definitive answer other than my first response (polite, too.)

******Where have I stated my opinion on this issue, except for the comments on this post?  Up until now, I have rephrased the thread's question, or stated facts. ****** 

You then had some tiff with chon, and I was confused about that in relation to your question, and your hostile response to Chon. You asked the same yes/no question again. Never one to run away, and still trying to get you to a question that made sense, I gave you the benefit of some doubt,

And I again pointed out the pointless question you asked.

******   Oh thanks, for trying to show me the way    More proof of your very polite and thoughtful manner.  Here's a hint:  before you start issuing directions to others, you should make sure you know where you're going yourself.

First of all, this wasn't my "pointless" question, but one posed by the thread.  If it's so pointless, why have you followed it for so long?

Secondly, if you can read, you can obviously see that I didn't start the flames.  Chonabot flamed me first (no hard feelings, it's the way things go), as a continuation from another thread.  If you don't know what you are talking about, then why insult?  Since you can obviously read, albeit selectively, I can only surmise that your thought processes are formed by your giant male chauvinst ego.  That's not my problem, it's yours.  ******

Or, is my heart in the right place, and if so, I'll just continue on that path. Hey, I'm human, too. I have written here with ill feelings on occasion, but I don't get into insult-wars.

******Oh, you don't?  You tried to backhand me with an insult alluding to me as "son".  I guess in your world women who think for themselves are masculine.  So be it.  It's more of a reflection of you than me.  Just go and look at the first page of this thread to refresh yourself. ******

Strange (to me) questions can throw me off balance sometimes though. 

I'm really trying to be the best person I can in my final years. I will continue to make mistakes, and I will continue to try to make amends when mistakes are made, In this little exchange of ours, I fully accept my responsibilty for my words, but not for your own mistaken interpretations of my words. I certainly could have been less assertive and confrontive with you. That's the downside sometimes for my 'cut to the chase' style. 

Anyway, no hard feelings on my part. I'd still like to get more into your issues...

******I don't have a problem with confrontation, and I don't have a problem with direct talk.  But if you want respect, then treat others with respect.   ******

Ajarn quote from another post:

Yes, that's an interesting point, that this attitude might more prevelant in Asian societies than in the west. I'd like to hear more about why these men feel that they couldn't raise someone elses kid. I wonder if there's any real research out there...?

******Supposedly, you had this all sorted and answered for me in the first few posts of the thread, and tried to shut down my question with your explanation:  "some do, some don't".  But now you're asking for more research.  I guess you only consider it a good question when YOU ask.  Perhaps your other words are sincere, but if that is so, you should examine your condescending attitude.

No hard feelings though, because I don't think you will ever understand me.

******

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/color]

Sorry to everyone else. Half the time I ignore these things, but I wanted to respond to the selective judgements I often encounter on TV. I won't respond to this or bother you with it on this thread anymore.

Edited embedded quotes for clarity.

Edited January 28, 2005 by kat

[Ajarn]

I remember a while ago , on a different thread , Kwiz ( a Sri Lankan) voiced the opinion that he could not take on another man's child.

He expressed admiration for those of us that can do this.

Not Thai , but he may have some views and reasons for them that may uncover a few Asian standpoints.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's an interesting point, that this attitude might more prevelant in Asian societies than in the west. I'd like to hear more about why these men feel that they couldn't raise someone elses kid. I wonder if there's any real research out there...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ajarn, now I am confused from your statement. I bring up a point for discussion and you see no validity in it and wonder what I could ever get from an answer.

Now you seem interested and wonder if a study has ever been conducted. What gives mate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple. Your question was 'if', my question is 'why'. Can't see the difference?

[mbkudu]

I remember a while ago , on a different thread , Kwiz ( a Sri Lankan) voiced the opinion that he could not take on another man's child.

He expressed admiration for those of us that can do this.

Not Thai , but he may have some views and reasons for them that may uncover a few Asian standpoints.

Yes, that's an interesting point, that this attitude might more prevelant in Asian societies than in the west. I'd like to hear more about why these men feel that they couldn't raise someone elses kid. I wonder if there's any real research out there...?

Ajarn, now I am confused from your statement. I bring up a point for discussion and you see no validity in it and wonder what I could ever get from an answer.

Now you seem interested and wonder if a study has ever been conducted. What gives mate?

Simple. Your question was 'if', my question is 'why'. Can't see the difference?

Edited January 28, 2005 by mbkudu

[Ajarn]

I remember a while ago , on a different thread , Kwiz ( a Sri Lankan) voiced the opinion that he could not take on another man's child.

He expressed admiration for those of us that can do this.

Not Thai , but he may have some views and reasons for them that may uncover a few Asian standpoints.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's an interesting point, that this attitude might more prevelant in Asian societies than in the west. I'd like to hear more about why these men feel that they couldn't raise someone elses kid. I wonder if there's any real research out there...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ajarn, now I am confused from your statement. I bring up a point for discussion and you see no validity in it and wonder what I could ever get from an answer.

Now you seem interested and wonder if a study has ever been conducted. What gives mate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple. Your question was 'if', my question is 'why'. Can't see the difference?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess that means you can't

You "I have never heard this before and wonder if this is indeed an attitude within Thai society"

Me "I'd like to hear more about why these men feel that they couldn't raise someone elses kid"

Did you read it some other way? Or did I miss something?

And it's not a flame, just a clarification since you seemed confused...

[mbkudu]

Any way you slice it, you're either interested in the answer of the subject matter

or not. Just because I haven't heard it before means it doesn't exist? That's a good one. I am interested and you are obviously not. I'm not going to go further with this thread because I think it is tapped out.

Edited January 28, 2005 by mbkudu

[Ajarn]

Any way you slice it, you're either interested in the answer of the subject matter

or not. I am interested and you are obviously not. I'm not going to go further with this thread because I think it is tapped out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh? Where is that coming from? Of course I'm interested in an answer, That's why I asked the question... What is your problem here? I asked you for clarification earlier, since you only seemed to be asking a yes/no question, like kat, which you chose to ignore. Why? Why not answer with some reasoning rather than turning it into an unwarranted attack on me later on? Did I hurt your feelings somehow, and now your ego is in play? Why not respond in a sincere and civil way to my civil and polite questons to you? Were you actually seeking more of a 'why do some folks think this way?' but it came out as a yes/no? Did I interpret your words and questions too literaly? Or is that you can't answer?

Just because I haven't heard it before means it doesn't exist?

Where the ###### did that come from? I have no clue what you're on about here....I never said or implied anything of the sort...

Edited January 28, 2005 by Ajarn

[Ajarn]

Cheers

The word to concentrate on here is 'understanding'. And the first person we must learn to understand is our'self'. If we can learn to understand our own merits and shortcomings and the 'why's' of those merits and shortcomings, we can begin to understand others.

I completely agree. Understanding comes from within one's self, and closing our minds to ourselves doesn't help to suggest that we'll be much different with others

Anyway, still like to hear some more ancedotal experiences around child-rearing issues...

[Ajarn]

I found that many Turkish men would not even think of bringing up another man's child/ren...,  "I would not/could not do that, but it is all ok if you do that."

Strictly a face issue, or did any of them offer other reasons?

I'm a bit hard-pressed to see a down-side, it seems

[SarahH]

My husband is Malay-Thai, and he is helping me raise my two kids from my first marriage. He's never complained, and the kids love him just as their biological father who they still communicate with. Thankfully, both men are mature adults and get along really well. My exhusband defers to my husband on all questions of raising our children, and my husband listens to my ex's ideas and concerns, too.

I feel it is an individual thing, not part of somebody's culture. For those trying to generalize about men in Thailand, you are looking in the wrong direction. Like ajarn said, it's more important to know why people do what they do. I don't care that 5,876 Thais would look down on somebody for taking care of a child not of their blood. I do care to know why. Then maybe I could understand better.

[Pink Mist]

My Wife's youngest son lives with us here in Adelaide and this is the first I've heard about it being bad, I should be ashamed of myself.

[Boo]

yep blonco, u r a really bad guy, go beat yourself with a bunch of twigs or something

[nwh]

My GF and soon to be wife wantsto raise/adopt her girlfriend's child who will be born in 4 months. The girlfriend can't raise the child for reasons I don't wnat to go into. We ourselves looks like cannot have children.

What you'll hink about that?

[slimdog]

Two things I have noticed over the years.

Firstly, Many Thai families are looking after other peoples children.Whilst it is generally expected that this would be a task of Grandparents, circumstances and attitudes have changed over the past few decades and now it seems quite a common occurance for others in the "family" to take care and raise the children.In general the people raising the children are given "Carte Blanche" as to how the children are raised, schooled etc. The term "family" is of course quite a loose definition as it frequently includes close friends and others living in a close proximity as well as blood relatives.

Secondly, Whilst raising other peoples children is not un-common, adoption is. But then again it is not un-common for people to marry and not go through the legal procedures of involving the local Amphur.

What has changed considerably over the past 2-3 decades is the amount of international travel, and with it the need for legal documentation.

[bina]

slimdog, that is a really amazingly interesting point....maybe legal adoption has a different cultural weight and connotations (adoption makes the child your inheritor as in royal lineage adoptions etc among many cultures; i think the chinese did somethng like that? ) as opposed to just taking care of someone else's child.....trying to remember where else 'legal' adoption (legal as in ritualized, or made legal by law) was different than just 'raising the child as your own'... maybe the word 'adoption' has different subtle cultural meanings that we dont know about....would definately like to know more

just now i found out that my friend's wife is raising her best friend's daughter also,as the mother is single and working and the child isnt with the grandparents for some reason (maybe no longer living).... so essentially he is here working and supporting three and not two as i thought /understood, as he refers to his children only, but considers this third girl as a 'cousin'.... his wife is raising all three alone since he is here (in israel) ; i suspect the third girl is older and helps with the two small ones as well as company for the wife since she is alone for the past three years....

family organization does seem rather complex at least in rural thailand due to single parents, fathers being migrant workers etc....

i know that my parents find it strange that my youngest daughter 'lives' part time with my brother in law and family (three houses away from me, with four young children), sleeping there, eating, and travelling with them often, although i am the decision maker, law enforcer, and 'main caretaker', she is the 'big sister'for their children and they as a family provide her with parts of her life that maybe are missing with me; my oldest often sleeps at grandparents' house (also close by) as they are elderly, and like to have a grandchild sleep there often)... ravisher you may notice this in turkey and greece; among morroccan families, and yemen families, this is common practice; in thailand i noticed lots of children not of immediate family sleeping in houses with other family members etc... took me a while to sort out who was whom...

[aletta]

Here in Isarn it seems very much part of life to care for children of others who have gone to work in Bangkok.Very common indeed.

[haha]

race does account for differences among people sorry to inform you; it is only the additional connotations that you have added that become 'racist' .... no one mentioned superior or inferior, however, race /ethnic background do make a person who she/he is and then environment add on.... genetic diseases are race/ethnic  identified (tay sachs, sickle cell, etc etc etc)

no one is being racist when they talk about social/ethnic/religious norms... they become racists when those same norms are used as fuel to say: we are better, superior, more intelligent, more normal, less primitive bla bla bla.....

no one here is judging any one (at least not me as your token israeli/american /ashkenazi /kibbutznik/non religious jew).... but at least by the labels i give myself, you may get a clue as to my background, norms etc... although i am also , i hope , a unique individual....who also happens to be the 'mia noi' of a thai foreign worker, and i try to see the world thru my eyes, and thai eyes....

so dont lecture me  or any one else about race, the original question here raised interesting points and all this is now entirely off subject

'nuff said

bina

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry if you think I'm lecturing you. just trying to make you aware of what you are doing.

supposing someone posted a message on the board saying, "why are all americans axxholes". and then proceeded to say that that seems to be the social norm. and of course, another person says, let's continue this line of discussion because the original poster did post a legitimate topic.

...and then, you get all these other people jumping in saying, "yeah. I want to know too. ..why are all americans axxholes."

for the people who are not americans, the posting may seem legitimate. but for sure, there will be people (americans) out there who are pissed that this question was even discussed.

..and you are wondering why few thais are replying to the posting?

this reply is not intended to be a flame, or a lecture.

[haha]

to the forum admin, I was just trying to correct my grammatical errors. by no means was I going to delete my posting.

[mbkudu]

Haha, I do see your point. However, if you look on this forum (there is a thread going right now) you will see the generalisations flying, especially directed at American axxholes, and the poor French!

[bina]

this is one of the times when i get really frustrated that i'm in cyberspace and not sitting with you poeple over a coffee to discuss; way too complex to type out answers and anyway, 'haha' i live in such a politically volitile country that frankly i'm sick of discussing racism etc.... we eat it read it discuss it perpetrate it between the haulocoust and the palestinian problem, i'm really sick of questions of racism etc....

i do want to know about family life in northeastern thailand in all its ways, problems etc so if people dont mind keeping the discussion open ??? w/o yelling racism every second?

kat definately gave an interesting perspective to all this due to her racial/ethnic'/environmental background

Edited January 29, 2005 by bina

[p_brownstone]

Whilst raising someone elses' child - made necessary as a result of various circumstances - is a feature of the extended family structure in Thailand it is not at all common for families to Adopt children, unless the background of the childs' family is well known, for example if it is the offspring of a family member.

It is quite unusual for children to be Adopted from Orphanages - at least compared to the situation in the West etc..

In Thailand there is great concern over the childs' "Sandarn" the instincts, attitudes and basic character inherited from its' birth parents, which Thais believe cannot be altered or modified. Even if the child is brought up in an entirely different atmosphere or social situation to that to which it was born the firm belief is that these traits will eventually surface and perhaps bring the family name into disrepute for example.

By definition any child unfortunate enough to be placed in an Orphanage is considered to be of very low birth - having no family willing or able to take care of it - so a very risky candidate for Adoption.

[mbkudu]

Whilst raising someone elses' child - made necessary as a result of various circumstances - is a feature of the extended family structure in Thailand it is not at all common for families to Adopt children, unless the background of the childs' family is well known, for example if it is the offspring of a family member.

It is quite unusual for children to be Adopted from Orphanages - at least compared to the situation in the West etc..

In Thailand there is great concern over the childs' "Sandarn" the instincts, attitudes and basic character inherited from its' birth parents, which Thais believe cannot be altered or modified. Even if the child is brought up in an entirely different atmosphere or social situation to that to which it was born the firm belief is that these traits will eventually surface and perhaps bring the family name into disrepute for example.

By definition any child unfortunate enough to be placed in an Orphanage is considered to be of very low birth - having no family willing or able to take care of it - so a very risky candidate for Adoption.

Thanks P Brownstone for this insight to clear the air here. It is indeed interesting and something I did not know about Thai culture.

[kat]

Yes, that's an interesting point, that this attitude might more prevelant in Asian societies than in the west. I'd like to hear more about why these men feel that they couldn't raise someone elses kid. I wonder if there's any real research out there...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ajarn, now I am confused from your statement. I bring up a point for discussion and you see no validity in it and wonder what I could ever get from an answer.

Now you seem interested and wonder if a study has ever been conducted. What gives mate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple. Your question was 'if', my question is 'why'. Can't see the difference?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*****But you asked 'why' after the 'if' was already posed and discussed on the thread. In a sense, you asked the 'why' question after benefitting from the question of 'if'. When the answers are not assumed, it is important to first establish 'if' satisfactorily, and then proceed to 'why'. It is obvious that asking 'if' on a question like this will naturally lead to 'why'. But some people resist the initial 'if' question, as is evidenced on this thread and many others.

It is simple research structure: a broad question, followed by the collection of information and data, acceptance or rejection of the hypothesis, and a further examination of details that can explain why or how.

A broad question, that is then rejected or accepted based on a detailed study *****

Cheers

The word to concentrate on here is 'understanding'. And the first person we must learn to understand is our'self'. If we can learn to understand our own merits and shortcomings and the 'why's' of those merits and shortcomings, we can begin to understand others.

I completely agree. Understanding comes from within one's self, and closing our minds to ourselves doesn't help to suggest that we'll be much different with others

Anyway, still like to hear some more ancedotal experiences around child-rearing issues...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*****Yes, that's exactly right. One does first start with the ancedotes and discussions to compare and sift, which was the value of the thread in the first place ******

QUOTE(SarahH @ 2005-01-29 02:33:54

I feel it is an individual thing, not part of somebody's culture. For those trying to generalize about men in Thailand, you are looking in the wrong direction. Like ajarn said, it's more important to know why people do what they do. I don't care that 5,876 Thais would look down on somebody for taking care of a child not of their blood. I do care to know why. Then maybe I could understand better.

[right)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/right]

******It's very nice to hear about both your husband and ex-husband, Sarah. There is always the individual, and the culture. But even the concept of individual varies between cultures. Actually, we are not generalizing. We are trying to flush out the details of how different cultures view raising other's children. To say that we are all individuals and not products of culture is the biggest generalization of all, in my view. And actually, your initial statement about it not being part of somebody's culture is not accurate. As you probably know, adoption as a principle is rejected by Islamic teachings. Does that mean that no one will adopt another's child in a Muslim country? Obviously, no one can accurately make this claim, because there are individual decisions that contravene the majority everywhere. In this thread, I'm simply trying to verify the broad cultural beliefs, first. And I do this to work toward a deep understanding.

And as a point of logic, I fail to see how you can try to understand something if you first are not even sure of its existence. *******

.... so dont lecture me  or any one else about race, the original question here raised interesting points and all this is now entirely off subject

'nuff said

bina

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry if you think I'm lecturing you. just trying to make you aware of what you are doing.

supposing someone posted a message on the board saying, "why are all americans axxholes". and then proceeded to say that that seems to be the social norm. and of course, another person says, let's continue this line of discussion because the original poster did post a legitimate topic.

...and then, you get all these other people jumping in saying, "yeah. I want to know too. ..why are all americans axxholes."

for the people who are not americans, the posting may seem legitimate. but for sure, there will be people (americans) out there who are pissed that this question was even discussed.

..and you are wondering why few thais are replying to the posting?

this reply is not intended to be a flame, or a lecture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

******Actually people say Americans are &lt;deleted&gt; all the time, and quite freely on this forum. And most of the time, they base a lot of their criticisms on personal likes or dislikes. That is their OPINION. Whether or not Americans are &lt;deleted&gt; is not the discussion of a social norm, but a discussion of opinions. Of course, there are plenty of American social norms that people judge, which is their right. I understand that there is a lot to judge about America, as many other places. However, many of the judgements are ill-informed and often don't hold up well to a factual comparison to their own countries. In other words, they overlook the details that may explain why, or that contradict their conclusions. That's not called a factual or informed analysis of social norms, it's called ranting hypocrisy.

It's also very hard to substantiate opinion, because everyone has a different one, and therefore the research definition will be quite inconsistent, because as we all know, &lt;deleted&gt; come in all varities

The question of this thread is not an opinion, but rather a question of how different cultures view the same issue. That is a sensitive issue, but why do you assume examing different cultural approaches to practical issues is racist? And yet, it is done with repetitive regularity among Western cultures. It can also be a bit patronizing to think that Asian cultures need to be "protected" from comparative analyses or questions about culture.

I agree that applications or interpretations can be racist, but does that mean that anyone who asks the question is racist as well? I don't think so, because it is not a product of honest analysis, only censorship, which is more suspect than the question. ******

Whilst raising someone elses' child - made necessary as a result of various circumstances - is a feature of the extended family structure in Thailand it is not at all common for families to Adopt children, unless the background of the childs' family is well known, for example if it is the offspring of a family member.

It is quite unusual for children to be Adopted from Orphanages - at least compared to the situation in the West etc..

In Thailand there is great concern over the childs' "Sandarn" the instincts, attitudes and basic character inherited from its' birth parents, which Thais believe cannot be altered or modified. Even if the child is brought up in an entirely different atmosphere or social situation to that to which it was born the firm belief is that these traits will eventually surface and perhaps bring the family name into disrepute for example.

By definition any child unfortunate enough to be placed in an Orphanage is considered to be of very low birth - having no family willing or able to take care of it - so a very risky candidate for Adoption.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

******Yes, I have heard this explanation as well, by someone that has worked in orphanages and an AIDs hospice.

Also, for the record, I have already talked to several Thai women from various backgrounds (Issan and Bangkok, most university educated), and all told me that the thread's question is true for many if not most Thai men. I asked 2 Thai men, and they thought it was nice that others adopt or raise other men's children, but they wouldn't do it. When I asked why, I just got a very vague answer along the lines of .... it's not good for family life, or I want my family to be the only one for the woman." But I will continue to examine this question for awhile by asking others, digging up previous research (which I have been doing for awhile on other related questions regarding Thai women and family issues), and reading this thread.

Also, I remember when I first came here and sometimes mentioned that I was adopted (when questioned further about my background), the reaction always seemed to be one of embarrassed pity or silence. *

Edited January 30, 2005 by kat

[p_brownstone]

Also, I remember when I first came here and sometimes mentioned that I was adopted (when questioned further about my background), the reaction always seemed to be one of embarrassed pity or silence. *

Kat

I do not wish to in any way upset you, but your somewhat rambling, scattergun responses to this thread seem to demonstrate that you have your own personal problems.

Here you appear to intimate that since you "sometimes" .... "mentioned" you were adopted, this is worthy of particular note and comment upon. Indeed you imply that if Members do NOT Post in clear sympathy with your circumstances, even their very silence is in some way reprehensible.

Maybe you should open another, more personally specific Thread, but your contributions so far to this one add little of real value.

Patrick

[kat]

I certainly have my share of personal problems, like most people on this forum, and most anywhere.

However, your interpretation of my comment on being adopted was most definitely wrong. I am not intimating that Thai Visa members should comment on my personal experience of adoption. I am sharing my personal experience of a few local Thai reactions to my being adopted. Not at all factual, just my personal observations which may suggest a wider pattern, or not.

"Here you appear to intimate that since you "sometimes" .... "mentioned" you were adopted, this is worthy of particular note and comment upon. Indeed you imply that if Members do NOT Post in clear sympathy with your circumstances, even their very silence is in some way reprehensible."

And you lied; that was a personal attack. If you don't like my ramblings, don't read them.

[bina]

brownstone, that just clarifies what i was trying to say in a lot more words:

maybe legal adoption has a different cultural weight and connotations (adoption makes the child your inheritor as in royal lineage adoptions etc among many cultures; i think the chinese did somethng like that? ) as opposed to just taking care of someone else's child.....trying to remember where else 'legal' adoption (legal as in ritualized, or made legal by law) was different than just 'raising the child as your own'... maybe the word 'adoption' has different subtle cultural meanings that we dont know about....would definately like to know more

thats what i meant when i mentioned the chinese family line as a possible example (maybe incorrect example? maybe thai lotus if reading could clue us in?)

could you write the word 'sandarn' in thai maybe?? it will help me ask the question in a less convoluted way to my friends;

kat, maybe you should answer a few posts at a time in a post and then answer some more its just physically difficult to read your answers to the quotes you quote when its sort of strung out a lot.

i tend to visually lose track of whom said what and what you answer.... but your answers themselves are very clear and non ambiguous....

also it is really difficult to discuss non concrete things by typing them out ; my hat goes off to my sister who works with deaf and hearing impaired and does this a lot....