Double Standard In Thailand

[Ulysses G.]

Thaksin gets convicted and sentenced to jail for corruption, which he no doubt deserves, but none of the equally corrupt politicians on the other side, and there are many, are ever called to question. The Yellows close down Thailand's international airport, causing mayhem and damage on an unprecedented scale to Thailand's tourist industry and reputation. None are arrested and charged, let alone convicted. The Reds do likewise, causing chaos in equal measure, and they are attacked by the army and then rounded up, with Abhisit, our Mr. Clean who was brought to power by the Yellows, promising criminal procedings.

What does that say about the judiciary? Should they be convicted for deriliction of duty and uneven application of justice? What does that say about Abhisit? It's easy to see why people are getting sick of the system.

[dbrenn]

I have once read Thailand is stuck in the 18th century with 21st century toys. There is no way they are right for democracy. Note I didn't say ready, I don't think democracy is the means of government right for them. Some kind of more centralized rule seems better but hopefully someone who does look out for the interests of the poor. Simply calling them dumb and casting them off is an injustice to the country. They need more chances and resources. It's not right for the rich to hog it all for themselves.

The PAD has admitted publicly that they want a system to replace democracy, whereby the vote of the lower classes, or 'uneducated' people as the PAD openly and arrogantly describes them, is diluted. The PAD wants a system in which only some of the parliament representatives are elected, while the remainder is appointed, presumably by those faithful to the PAD and its army / judicial / bureaucratic clique.

There is an aspect to the argument that the PAD makes that is highly attractive to the middle classes and the elite, who don't trust the average Thai peasant who make up the majority, and certainly don't want the lower classes to participate in equal measure in the choice of those who run the country. The unfortunate upshot of this viewpoint is that it creates the kind of division that we are seeing now in Thai sociery, where the now better informed country folk are disregarding the traditional propaganda, and are enraged by those who they see are promising their democratic rights, while at the same time taking away those rights by toppling the man that they chose to govern them in a free and fair election.

Now if democracy is not right for Thailand, and let's say that it should be replaced by another system, what should that system be? Who in the minority should have the right to choose our master, and can we trust that they will always make the right decision? As much as democracy is an imperfect system, it is the best of a bad lot. There are examples of benevolent dictators, but they are outnumbered by the tyrants who kill and repress, as history shows us. At least democracy is blunt instrument with which the population can oust leaders who have forgotten that their sole purpose is to represent the will of the general public.

Thailand is in a difficult situation. Quiet has been restored temporarily, by force, but the underlying problem has not been addressed. There is a smell of fin de regime in the air.

Edited April 15, 2009 by dbrenn

[Heng]

How about a pretend democracy where most of the power is concentrated in the hands of a few dozen multinational corporations whose major shareholders names are rarely in the public spotlight? That way there's no figurehead to point the finger at. Oh... it's CP (P&G/Colgate Palmolive/etc.) behind this... it's PTT (or Shell/Mobil Exxon/etc) who ordered those death squads out... etc.

Once you give a company a one person personality, it gives the people someone to compare themselves to, to resent, to hate, to blame. Keep it general and distanced and the masses stay docile.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Heng

[Chaimai]

What does that say about the judiciary? Should they be convicted for deriliction of duty and uneven application of justice? What does that say about Abhisit? It's easy to see why people are getting sick of the system.

It shows that, within 5 months, Thailand has progressed.

[Marksamui]

I have once read Thailand is stuck in the 18th century with 21st century toys. There is no way they are right for democracy. Note I didn't say ready, I don't think democracy is the means of government right for them. Some kind of more centralized rule seems better but hopefully someone who does look out for the interests of the poor. Simply calling them dumb and casting them off is an injustice to the country. They need more chances and resources. It's not right for the rich to hog it all for themselves.

The PAD has admitted publicly that they want a system to replace democracy, whereby the vote of the lower classes, or 'uneducated' people as the PAD openly and arrogantly describes them, is diluted. The PAD wants a system in which only some of the parliament representatives are elected, while the remainder is appointed, presumably by those faithful to the PAD and its army / judicial / bureaucratic clique.

There is an aspect to the argument that the PAD makes that is highly attractive to the middle classes and the elite, who don't trust the average Thai peasant who make up the majority, and certainly don't want the lower classes to participate in equal measure in the choice of those who run the country. The unfortunate upshot of this viewpoint is that it creates the kind of division that we are seeing now in Thai sociery, where the now better informed country folk are disregarding the traditional propaganda, and are enraged by those who they see are promising their democratic rights, while at the same time taking away those rights by toppling the man that they chose to govern them in a free and fair election.

Now if democracy is not right for Thailand, and let's say that it should be replaced by another system, what should that system be? Who in the minority should have the right to choose our master, and can we trust that they will always make the right decision? As much as democracy is an imperfect system, it is the best of a bad lot. There are examples of benevolent dictators, but they are outnumbered by the tyrants who kill and repress, as history shows us. At least democracy is blunt instrument with which the population can oust leaders who have forgotten that their sole purpose is to represent the will of the general public.

Thailand is in a difficult situation. Quiet has been restored temporarily, by force, but the underlying problem has not been addressed. There is a smell of fin de regime in the air.

Democracy is not working in Thailand this is correct.

They might be able to find someone to turn to, I don't think it would be hard to find a person and people would respect it.

Have to be careful. I think there are other factors driving this but don't want to get drawn into in.

I think Thailand is going to have some very messy years ahead. One big event will then change the country forever but in what direction no one can guess....

[dbrenn]

What does that say about the judiciary? Should they be convicted for deriliction of duty and uneven application of justice? What does that say about Abhisit? It's easy to see why people are getting sick of the system.

It shows that, within 5 months, Thailand has progressed.

I don't really understand what you are saying. Are you saying that your definition of progression is a judiciary that selectiely applies justice in the toppling of an elected Prime Minister? If so, what other parameters are you using to measure progression over the past five months?

[LindsayBKK]

It's funny how everybody has a different prospective on the Thai political issues currently happening.

This is just Thailand, some of the most unusual people and habits in the world.

Sondhi Limthongkul was a partner and friend of Thaksin.

The Company went bankrupt and Sondhi lost Millions or was it Billions?.

So he heads the PDD (Yellow Shirts) to try and force Thaksin from government.

The Military did nothing to stop the protest because they do not like Thaksin.

Thaksin starts a UDD (Red Shirts) in revenge to try and force Abhisit Vejjajiva to resign.

Military move in and arrest Red Shirt Supporters. Some paid from Myanmar.

Military Support the Democrat Government and The K..g.

The K..g does not like Thaksin.

Thaksin paid Dan Rivers (CNN) when he fled to UK for a "I have done nothing wrong" interview.

Thaksin Lobbying CNN.

He wants to start a revolution. spiteful little %$#@!

He has no interest to be PM or return he is also trying get his money back.

He is divorced, millions poorer, and running out of countries to hide.

He was given 2 years for the first charge, many charges pending.

If he says he is so innocent why does he not return to face the music?

Abhisit Vejjajiva is doing a very good job under difficult circumstances.

Edited April 15, 2009 by LindsayBKK

[hhgz]

"I may not remember this correctly, but I believe that the when the US was forming it's government, they never intended the common rabble to elect anyone...I may be wrong, but the model of Democracy (the US) does not elect it's President by popular vote."

Where are you from Tony, Neptune? The US form of government and its constitution has been discussed all too often, especially in a forum that is supposed to be related to Thailand. Discussing the pros and cons of the US electoral process might allow you to vent your spleen, but it has nothing to do with Thailand.

[TonySoprano]

How about a pretend democracy where most of the power is concentrated in the hands of a few dozen multinational corporations whose major shareholders names are rarely in the public spotlight? That way there's no figurehead to point the finger at. Oh... it's CP (P&G/Colgate Palmolive/etc.) behind this... it's PTT (or Shell/Mobil Exxon/etc) who ordered those death squads out... etc.

Once you give a company a one person personality, it gives the people someone to compare themselves to, to resent, to hate, to blame. Keep it general and distanced and the masses stay docile.

Where does Barrack Obama fit into all of that?

[Lami]

From New York Times article, Thai Protests Reveal Deep Divisions, 2009/04/15.

Many red shirts say they do not trust the Thai media, which they accuse of siding with the government. Those from the provinces say they resent being looked down on as people who speak funny dialects. They draw the contrast between the light touch used by security forces last year against royalist protesters and the thousands of troops who forcibly dislodged the red shirts from Bangkok's streets this week.

"This country has a double standard, has no justice and will never be peaceful," read a comment on pantip.com, an Internet chat site that has a popular political section. "There will be civil war because people see that injustice has become an acceptable thing."

The government has closed down several Internet sites linked to the red shirts as well as a satellite television station that carried live broadcasts of the protests.

Double standards are entrenched in Thai society and culture.

To an extent, it must be said that the poverty of a large section of the Thai population may suit some (many?) foreign residents quite well.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Lami

[Chaimai]

I don't really understand what you are saying. Are you saying that your definition of progression is a judiciary that selectiely applies justice in the toppling of an elected Prime Minister? If so, what other parameters are you using to measure progression over the past five months?

I am saying that the government of the day failed to deal effectively with PAD and it's leaders; the government of the day dealy effectively with the red-shirts (apart from the Pattaya fiasco) and is taking decisive action against it's leaders.

That, in my book, is progress. The reasons are multifarious and not just fortuitous.

[Lami]

Just me noticing a distinct chill in the air and very little in the way of news updates, "The Nation" included?

[Singaporelovethais]

Just me noticing a distinct chill in the air and very little in the way of news updates, "The Nation" included?

No credible local news in Thailand. The Nation and Bangkok Post is de facto yellow shirt

[Lami]

I do think the presence is palpable right now .

A heavy, unpleasant presence ...

[chrislarsson]

Why do people still keep insisting that the previous government won the election.

The previous government was able to form a government in chorus with minor parties and factions to give it the numbers.

After the courts banned the main party and many of its members for among other things ,vote buying,enough of the factions joined the current government which gave them the numbers to form a government.

This is standard practice under many systems of government.

For instance Indonesia where the ruling party in the coalition only received 20% of the popular vote.

Israel where the party that received the majority of the vote was still unable to make up a coalition to govern.

India where the government is made up of a huge number of coalition partners.

Coalition governments are historically unstable as it only takes single small coalition partner to take their ball and go home to swing the numbers and bring a government down.

The current Thai government includes factions who were originally a part of the previous government but chose to swap sides thereby giving this government the numbers in the house.

Once a person is elected to parliament they have the freedom to chop and change affiliations for whatever reason,be it self preservation,or maybe to get their noses deeper into the trough,This can be very lucrative in a short period as they dont have to answer to their constituents until the next poll.

So why not hold free and fair elections ones and for all to get out of this spiral of protest.

Try to stop vote buying, but what's the big deal, as long as voting is anonymous, people can vote for anybody regardless if they received money or not. It's not like politics and elections are that clean in the rest of the world anyway.

Having the court deciding elections is for sure much worse, and it makes it a politicized institution. Do anyone really believe that Abhisit would be dismissed if he appeared in a cooking show?

[Seizhin]

Had to say this.. My friend who came from Malaysia spoke in English and was charged 50 baht for a plate of fried rice, I was charged 30 baht for the same thing.

Thailand is double standard indeed.

So to say, militaries were dispatched to capture the Red shirts and disperse them a day after they attacked the Royal Cliff Beach Resort.

But it's been a year ever since PAD led hundreds of thousands of protester for a free sleep on both airport, and the government house.

Away with the double standard, get them all in jail please.

[chrislarsson]

I don't really understand what you are saying. Are you saying that your definition of progression is a judiciary that selectiely applies justice in the toppling of an elected Prime Minister? If so, what other parameters are you using to measure progression over the past five months?

I am saying that the government of the day failed to deal effectively with PAD and it's leaders; the government of the day dealy effectively with the red-shirts (apart from the Pattaya fiasco) and is taking decisive action against it's leaders.

That, in my book, is progress. The reasons are multifarious and not just fortuitous.

It's not like the crimes by PAD have been prescribed. If there really are any progress in the current government, how come PAD leaders are still free? Any problems to find evidence? This could possibly also have avoided the reds from hitting the streets from the beginning.

[bonobo]

From my casual conversations lately with many Thais of a wide range of incomes, the general concensus I have heard is that both the redshirts and the yellowshirts were wrong and have been bad for the country.  The hope is that someone else comes through and both the reds and yellows fade away in to the dustbin of Thai history.

[chrislarsson]

From my casual conversations lately with many Thais of a wide range of incomes, the general concensus I have heard is that both the redshirts and the yellowshirts were wrong and have been bad for the country. The hope is that someone else comes through and both the reds and yellows fade away in to the dustbin of Thai history.

Thailand has to get serious about narrowing the income divide. You cannot tell poor ppl that they should not ask for anything, while they can see the lifestyle of rich ppl in Bangkok on TV. Thaksin just happened to be the person to wake the poor up, they will not disappear just because Thaksin does.

[chrislarsson]

pls delete

Edited April 15, 2009 by chrislarsson

[pattaya_girl]

Just was wondering, is the present PM married (to a woman) ???

[jayjayjayjay]

There is a discussion on whether Abhisit is actually in charge, and to answer this question we should perhaps take a look at the glaring double standard that exists in Thailand.

When the PAD causes chaos and enormous financial loss by shutting down the country's international airport, shooting and fighting in the streets, the army did nothing. When the Reds cause chaos, the army intervenes. Corrupt politicians in the yellow camp, and there are many, are ignored by the judiciary, whereas corrupt politicians in Thaksin's camp who are the elected government of the day are hounded for infractions as small as appearing on a TV cooking program, and expelled from office.

How undemocratic. There is a school of thought that says that Thailand is not ready for a democracy, that the poor majority is too stupid to vote sensibly and should therefore have its representation diluted by the elite. That is what the PAD has said publicly, but who trusts them or the old guard generals and elite who sponsor them and who have never really done anything to improve the lot of the average Thai.

Thaksin's lot are highly unpalatable, but they were an elected civilian government, marking the first time in Thailand's recent history that worn out and corrupt generals and career bureaucrats were not calling all the shots, bickering amongst themselves, and getting nothing done. The PAD tore down a fledgling democracy that was an example to other countries in SE Asia, and replaced it with mob rule. What they should have done was show how much support they really had by beating Thaksin at the ballot box, peacefully. They seemed unable to do that, and now we are in an unending cycle of street violence and Myanmaresque military intervention.

I notice that a lot of foreigners seem to miss this obvious double standard, automatically vilifying Thaksin as the devil incarnate, while holding up Abhisit and his lot as clean and democratic. Looking at the Bangkok Post or the Nation, which most foreigners depend on for political insight, I can see why. They are clearly biased toward the PAD, and have been since its inception.

Abhisit is a nice guy in a party just as rotten as the rest of them. In charge of Thailand he is not.

I second that.

[bf2002]

There is a discussion on whether Abhisit is actually in charge, and to answer this question we should perhaps take a look at the glaring double standard that exists in Thailand.

When the PAD causes chaos and enormous financial loss by shutting down the country's international airport, shooting and fighting in the streets, the army did nothing. When the Reds cause chaos, the army intervenes. Corrupt politicians in the yellow camp, and there are many, are ignored by the judiciary, whereas corrupt politicians in Thaksin's camp who are the elected government of the day are hounded for infractions as small as appearing on a TV cooking program, and expelled from office.

How undemocratic. There is a school of thought that says that Thailand is not ready for a democracy, that the poor majority is too stupid to vote sensibly and should therefore have its representation diluted by the elite. That is what the PAD has said publicly, but who trusts them or the old guard generals and elite who sponsor them and who have never really done anything to improve the lot of the average Thai.

Thaksin's lot are highly unpalatable, but they were an elected civilian government, marking the first time in Thailand's recent history that worn out and corrupt generals and career bureaucrats were not calling all the shots, bickering amongst themselves, and getting nothing done. The PAD tore down a fledgling democracy that was an example to other countries in SE Asia, and replaced it with mob rule. What they should have done was show how much support they really had by beating Thaksin at the ballot box, peacefully. They seemed unable to do that, and now we are in an unending cycle of street violence and Myanmaresque military intervention.

I notice that a lot of foreigners seem to miss this obvious double standard, automatically vilifying Thaksin as the devil incarnate, while holding up Abhisit and his lot as clean and democratic. Looking at the Bangkok Post or the Nation, which most foreigners depend on for political insight, I can see why. They are clearly biased toward the PAD, and have been since its inception.

Abhisit is a nice guy in a party just as rotten as the rest of them. In charge of Thailand he is not.

Finally, someone who sees it for what is is!

I think you are giving too many foreigners the benefit of the doubt...I believe most do get the point...they are just blinded by their "socialist" version of democracy...and they think just like the BKK elites who justify the need to "help" the Issaan crowd "learn" what is "right" and what is "bad for the nation".

Standard PC crap from standard socialist types. Most of the BKK elites got educated in liberal European, British, and American schools.

Edited April 15, 2009 by bf2002

[chuang]

The current side is a minority, just made up of better people.

These better people must be of rocket science calibre......

[cat5]

It's all very simple. The yellow shirts are the rich and elite and cannot live with the poorer majority determining the path of the government and country. What they (Yellow shits) have quickly realized is that with a democratically elected government, they lose control of their money through taxation. The poor, with the majority, could introduce and vote into law taxes on the rich to be distributed to the poor through welfare, health care and social security schemes.

This IS what it is all about.

As repugnant as Thaksin might be (for trying to avoid taxes on his communications company sale), he was unlawfully and unconstitutionally removed from office and he really is the only true democratically elected PM of this country. The fact that the judicial system and current government officials continue to ignore this basic concept makes them all corrupt and unfit for public office. They ignore the basic foundations of the rule of law.

Why aren't the Yellow shirt leaders also being rounded up under an arrest warrant?

Regards

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment and the original post.

[Losangels]

The current side is a minority, just made up of better people.

These better people must be of rocket science calibre......

The better people are teflon coated

[clausewitz]

This article from the local press makes similar points:

Red shirts more than just a bunch of Thaksin's supporters

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on April 7, 2009

"Fifty-fifty", was the response of a key member of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) when asked about the chances of his red-shirt movement overthrowing Abhisit Vejjajiva in the not-too-distant future.

The figure is as much a guesstimate as it is a description of the uncertain political situation in which Thailand finds itself at this juncture in political history - fifty-fifty. Anything is possible.

Tomorrow, DAAD paramount leader in exile, convicted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, hopes his followers will fight to restore "democracy" by showing their force in a sea of red. Those who show up tomorrow will include many more than passive Thaksin supporters and those organised by former Thai Rak Thai politicians from upcountry. It will be an unholy alliance of many groups wanting to tear down the old political order.

First are those opposing the September 2006 military coup which, incidentally, ousted Thaksin. Some of these people were never Thaksin fans. This writer knows of one female member, formerly very actively supporting the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD). But the coup convinced her that the military and the aristocracy who pull the strings were the greater of the two evils and had to go. Those with long-enough memory will also recall that DAAD co-leader Weng Tojirakarn was more than once on the PAD stage ranting against Thaksin too.

Many young reds who opposed the coup felt military intervention should have been consigned to history, as they had only a faint memory of the 1991 coup that ousted then premier Chatichai Choonhavan. They have a contempt for military adventure in politics.

Group two are those who feel Thailand needs to move away from a semi-feudal system where politics is orchestrated behind the scenes. They also want to see the monarchy institution truly outside politics.

A group of netizens, calling itself FARED (First Aid Red) have volunteered at the Government House rally site to offer first aid despite the fact none was trained in medicine. However, they have hired a nurse or two to teach them.

Some educated red shirts want to see a much more limited monarchy institution, like those in Great Britain or Japan, and have vented their frustrations on the Internet. A string of arrests and jailings, such as that of Suwicha Thakor, who got a 10-year term last week for lese majeste and for breaking the computer crime Act, have made it clear there are people unhappy about the current arrangement. The crackdown and the counter-reaction continues as police are eyeing to arrest more. With the Internet coming under close surveillance, one resorted to spreading attacks on the monarchy by distributing leaflets and was reportedly arrested on Saturday in Khon Kaen. These people pose a challenge to the commonly accepted belief that all Thais revere the monarchy institution and they want change.

The PAD's New Politics, which proposed limited electoral rights, and their seizure of the airports, also provided a turning point for others who have joined the red-shirt movement.

Group three are fuelled by general insults handed down by a large section of the press describing the protesters as a hired lowly educated mob who don't know what voting and democracy is all about - only serving to make more working class red and angry. These people can be found riding the bus back home from rally sites late in the evening, hating the anti-Thaksin media as well as PAD's New Politics which they regard as insulting and elitist.

So this is a war between new money, represented by Thaksin and his associates, some die-hard leftists, a young middle class fed up with old politics, educated as well as lesser educated middle and working class versus the PAD - which claims to represent the monarchy and moral politics and is run by the few and supported by the military, the bureaucracy, old money and old elites.

Now that Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanond has been openly dragged into the feud through Thaksin's allegation that he's behind the coup, the battleground is even clearer.

The PAD's momentum surged when it attracted people from many walks whom Thaksin had made his enemy during his abusive and egocentric rule as prime minister. Now the red DAAD have attracted many diverse groups who feel upset about the old powers and are willing to use Thaksin, and let Thaksin use them, to achieve victory.

This unholy alliance is getting stronger by the day as more and more people feel emboldened by the sheer numbers challenging the old establishment. And it's definitely more than just about Thaksin or PAD, Sondhi Limthongkul or even Prem.

[dave111223]

The sad part is that, for the most part, out of Thai that i talked to (during Songkrang) largely have no idea why they support 1 team or the other.

Example here's a conversation i had with my mother in-law who is a teacher at a public school.

Mother in-law - " I support the yellow team"

Me - "Why?"

MIL - "Rayong supports Yellow, and I don't like Thaksin"

Me - "Even though yellow team wants to scrap the 1-man-1-vote system? So regular people such as yourself will only have a 30% say in the government?"

MIL - "I've never heard of that, i'm sure you must have misunderstood".

Me - Look up PAD profile on ABS news website listing their core philosophy of 70% elite, 30% people government, and show MIL.

MIL - Silent/irritated look...."I support Yellow"

It's just so ironic to me that you would support a political movement designed to take away your political power...simply because you don't like one person.

[clausewitz]

The current side is a minority, just made up of better people. I don't identify with either group... I know you want to play dodgeball and all, but my comment was just an observation and I'm not on either team. I can poke fun at the other side as well... it's just not as funny. There is no set measure, it's an intangible (which is the main reason why it can never be copied by the others... no matter how hard they try).

It calls itself whatever it wants to call itself. And the cycle is perfectly natural, and is hardly unique in historical terms. All that happens is that the system topples over and over time, the same components of society end up near the top... just with different names/symbols/and logos.

Heng I kind of agree with this. What really makes my stomach turn is the way the elites can't admit they have no truck with Democracy(unless their man gets voted in). Why doesn't Abhisit be frank and say that his party is better and thus it doesn't mater what the majority want and that Thailand shouldn't have a voter based democracy. Jeez he even went on TV in a foreign interview with Dan Rather and said if there was a new election the Democrats would win.

[Losangels]

[ Jeez he even went on TV in a foreign interview with Dan Rather and said if there was a new election the Democrats would win.

Very confident isn't he? Then why not call for a new election?