Beware Builder/architect Surin

[wildoates]

New builder started, open the bottom of house to find 6 inches of water, leaks everywhere. the drain pipe was a mess, running both ways, in a 1 1/2 inch pipe,

the new builders seems to understand things better, seems to be doing a much better job at plumbing, main water line under house 1 inch, a main trunk for the drain 3 inch, divided like it should be. hooking the vents up to the pipe and ect. much better job so far.

still waiting on court with the low life one

[Dave the Dude]

New builder started, open the bottom of house to find 6 inches of water, leaks everywhere. the drain pipe was a mess, running both ways, in a 1 1/2 inch pipe,

the new builders seems to understand things better, seems to be doing a much better job at plumbing, main water line under house 1 inch, a main trunk for the drain 3 inch, divided like it should be. hooking the vents up to the pipe and ect. much better job so far.

still waiting on court with the low life one

Pleased to hear it, Mike

Good luck mate

Dave

[dre1247]

From the OP's post it is difficult to see if builder/architect is completely at fault here.

What kind of contractual agreement did you have?

Did you clearly specify a type of window or agree tiling pattern?

It is essential to agree what is to be built, what is included in price and completion date before signing contract and starting work. Unless this was done both you and your builder have a different idea of what is expected.

How unfortunately it may be it appears you are paying to learn. First you trusted your fellow farang, don't, they come in all shapes and forms as Thais do. Your contract must specify everything as detailed as possible and if you like it or not, use a law office. I can go on and on, I see this happening on a daily base for I am installing alarms, usually during the building stage. By the way, aluminium window frames come in 5 qualities, but outside all look the same.

Edited September 14, 2009 by dre1247

[dre1247]

From the OP's post it is difficult to see if builder/architect is completely at fault here.

What kind of contractual agreement did you have?

Did you clearly specify a type of window or agree tiling pattern?

It is essential to agree what is to be built, what is included in price and completion date before signing contract and starting work. Unless this was done both you and your builder have a different idea of what is expected.

Undertand what you are saying, we have a contract, he is on the tarket date, not late, He had us pick out the items we wanted, and gave us a price for the house, now he is running short on money (due to his house being built) so he is short changing me. I showed him what I wanted for the kitchen, nothing real fancy,he made the comment that is a Farang kitchen, now says it was not in the budget. 1.6 for appox 100 sq meter 1 story house.

Home Mart is where the tile was picked out, they did the pattern, and that was what was given to the workers, I saw it, even had to give them a better copy but then he came when they were over half done says he changed the patteren??

Windows, he showed us what he was going to use, but that is not what they are putting in.

Yes I am at fault for not getting every single item listed but a mans word should be worth something.

I am just trying to warn others to beware of him.

"but a mans word should be worth something" for honourable people yes, for charlatans no. I am operating in the E Seaboard and there are plain crooks in abundance here, especially in the real estate business. I am in the prelim stages of setting up a web site highlighting those bad boys as many as possible. This is for the un expecting and (too) trustworthy new comers to take heed. I know of people literally lifted of hundreds of millions of baht, and no I am not joking.

But, unfortunately most new comers only trust their own country men (and women) not realising how criminal they are.

[dre1247]

Plenty of Farangs are getting ripped off by Thai builders in the Surin area. There is only one to go to ,to make sure of a good job, Alan the Builder. He charges a little bit more than the average Thai, but the job gets done exactly as the customer wants. Now, it could be that other builders in the Surin area know Alan's rates and have raised their prices accordingly to do shabby work.Two guys in the last three months have turned down Alan after seeing his plans & prices. BOTH have come back and said " I wish we had stuck with you, now it is going to cost us a lot more"

So there you go. A lot of Farangs like the idea of building a house in Thailand for next to nothing, but please remember. If you use a thai builder you must watch over them 24/7.

"Plenty of Farangs are getting ripped off by Thai builders in the Surin area" Sorry, it appears to me he was ripped of by a farang builder?

Excuses, I retract this, after reading back I realise we discuss a local company. Well let me warn you of builders of all nationallyties, I thought a Thai builder was a no brainer.

Edited September 14, 2009 by dre1247

[wildoates]

The new builder, so far, has done a great job. He seems to be a good builder, and takes pride in his work, as well as his workers doing quality work. There are some good honest Thai builders, but like always the bad ones are in the news more.

[Dave the Dude]

"but a mans word should be worth something" for honourable people yes, for charlatans no. I am operating in the E Seaboard and there are plain crooks in abundance here, especially in the real estate business. I am in the prelim stages of setting up a web site highlighting those bad boys as many as possible. This is for the un expecting and (too) trustworthy new comers to take heed. I know of people literally lifted of hundreds of millions of baht, and no I am not joking.

But, unfortunately most new comers only trust their own country men (and women) not realising how criminal they are.

May I make two polite suggestions

1) Buy your wife a gun and find a good builder to turn your house into a fortress.

2) Get someone to proof-read your site. I found your posts to be unclear and if its just me, I apologize in advance, it must be MY lack of communication skills.

Dave

[dre1247]

"but a mans word should be worth something" for honourable people yes, for charlatans no. I am operating in the E Seaboard and there are plain crooks in abundance here, especially in the real estate business. I am in the prelim stages of setting up a web site highlighting those bad boys as many as possible. This is for the un expecting and (too) trustworthy new comers to take heed. I know of people literally lifted of hundreds of millions of baht, and no I am not joking.

But, unfortunately most new comers only trust their own country men (and women) not realising how criminal they are.

May I make two polite suggestions

1) Buy your wife a gun and find a good builder to turn your house into a fortress.

2) Get someone to proof-read your site. I found your posts to be unclear and if its just me, I apologize in advance, it must be MY lack of communication skills.

Dave

Hi Dude (American perhaps), My wife doesn't need to support me in this, I am allowed as a Thai citizen to buy one myself. If I would write in my own native language (which is not Thai) you for sure would not get it. And if you would be able to write as good in my language as I do in yours you deserve an Oscar. Now, no more polite suggestions please LOL

Edited September 15, 2009 by dre1247

[wildoates]

OK had to pump out the septic tanks for the 2nd time, it seems so much water under house filled them again, so had the septic truck pump out the water under house also, the little pump the builder had just was not making headway to fast. now all water is gone all the plumbing is working well, and no leaks anywhere. the only plumbing left is under the kitchen sink and they will do that when they replace the counter top and sink.

They have fixed the ceilings in the 2 bathrooms and 2nd bedroow, and did a excellent job. Fixed the eve's and are now finishing painitng it again.

The electrican came and fixed the lights that did not work, looked at the AC line and said it was too small (done by powerbuy), but the orginal electrican put 2 AC lines in but the guys from powerbuy said they could not find them, well the new guy found them alright, and re wired the AC. Hot machine under kitchen sink did not work, found out that it was installed with the water running the wrong way, so it now has to be replace/repaired.

The builder was here yeaterday, looking at the work, wants to put a leech field off the septic tanks , to help them drain Going to have his concrete crew come out next to fix all the concrete around the house, then repaint the house.

Again all is going well, very happy with the new builder and his crew.

[Andyman]

Read this post with interest as i have built 6 houses in the last two & half years.......... none of this suprises me.

What i have learnt so far in Phuket:

Cost of building 6,000THB (Basic Thai construction) - 14,500THB (Ferang spec)

Always have a BOQ (Bill of quantity) with as much listed as possible, never take anyone on there word.

Be prepared for your builder to use this BOQ as a rough guide, its your job to point out the shortcuts and cost cutting, this will be a constant game and to be expected.

Your builder will expect you to buy electrical items (i.e. water heater) flood lights etc. and actually it is better that you get them, if not you will end up with the cheapest, nastyist stuff going and have to replace it anyway.

Doors can be another point, specify the type of wood and design in the BOQ along with the price also the make and model of the door hardware, otherwise cheapest warped doors will be selected.

Most builders will expect just cold water at sinks & basins, if you need hot water this will cost more, copper pipe, different taps, water heater, power supply and should be included in the planning stages & clearly marked on the plans & BOQ.

Electric supply to your house will not be included you have to pay for this.

If you can, after the intial mobalization payment has been made, structure the payments so you are in control of the build and can use this to your advantage if things go wrong.

Lastly just remember things are done differently here and will never be 100% as you imagined it, aim for 90% and accept 80% as a minimum, small things can be adjusted after, the main concern is the get the job finished to a resonable standard.

Forgot one last thing drains & septic tanks, make sure all pipe work drains in the right direction BEFORE they bury it.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Well finally got the wife fired up, met with the builder today. She sent him an email detailing all of the probems we seen with the build. He called her first trying to do the old soft shoe with his song and dance. Well she stopped him cold with the statement, "well you give me no choice but to sue you.", he listen to her at that point. We met, walked throgh the house pointing out all the problems and he will fix everthing the way we want it done. He did not once try and say "that to expensive". Everything went as what we asked for. They have about 2-3 weeks worth of work left to do, so we will see. He had a meeting with the leads and told them to do everything perfect because I was real picky. So we will see, but he knew he was in the wrong.

Sounds like your wife got the measure of the guy, which is good'

Many Thais do the right thing when they have to and not before, and not at all for a farang which is bad.

Good luck in your battle, sic the wife on him again...

[wildoates]

attend court yesterday, and the judge wanted a Mediator to try and work things out. Now we were at the court a week ago for this and the Builder never showed, but now they want to try it on the court date?? Well he finally showed up at 2 PM instead of 1 PM. We sit in a room and he told his side of the story, the wife told hers, well it came out that he was mistaken so it was clear he was going to loose. The suit is for 768000 baht, and they asked how much will we settle for, wife said 600000 baht. Now he is in the dark as what the total is for. It seems that the papers for are only disclosed to the court on court day, and not to the other party. The Lawyer had to advise the Mediator of this, and the Builder wanted time to think (or find out where to get the money) so now with the two lawyers schedule we go back on December 3rd.

[wildoates]

Attended court today, the Mediator tried to get a settlement. The builder would not commit to any figures, just kept telling us we wanted to much, wanted more of a discount. The Mediator asked the builder over and over to give a number, he would not. So now on to court, went in front of the Judge to get a court date, she asked about a settlement, our lawyer told her that the builder would not discuss, that he just is wasting our time and the courts time on this, that court is what he wanted, The builders lawyer just nodded yes. So a date was set for February, but then moved til July. The builder's lawyer told wife and her lawyer he did not care if he loses, that they will just appeal to the next court, so it will be years before we get any money. Wife just looked at him and said she don't care, cause now she wants it all, no settlement, and will ask the court for intrest. They know they are going to lose, now it is just a game to delay as long as they can.

[parryhandy]

Is there anything stopping him transferring any assets he has into somebody elses name before you "win" ?

[wildoates]

Is there anything stopping him transferring any assets he has into somebody elses name before you "win" ?

According to the lawyer, he and the courts will look at what he owned at filing time. If he transfers any assets, the transfer can be reversed. I asked about that.

[pigeonjake]

well im going to put my bit in, i agree with most, but what i would like to say is, if you get a farange builder in to do the job,HE DOSNT DO THE WORK, he gets the same thai builders you can get, the only thing to do is to be there all the time while your build is going on, or ask if there is a farange around who has building knolage to project manage the build for you, i dont agree at all about going to a farange builder, there isnt any teams of farange builders around surin or i dout in any other parts of thailand, my dad used to build a bungalow with just him his brother and my uncle ray, well thats the brickwork plastering ect, not the electrics and plumbing, dont be taken in by the high prices of a farange builder, like i said he will hire the same men you can hire,, just shop around, ask around, look at work in your village, believe me there is some good men out there, that wont rip you off, and dont build in the rice season there all busy, build out of rice season and youll get a better price too, just think about things ask the questions,, take care all jake

[Dave the Dude]

Hi Jake

Whats the difference in ' ask if there is a farange around who has building knolage to project manage the build for you' than Hiring a farang Builder??

Any Builder, Farang or otherwise is only as good as his team who works for him. Some Builder/Project Managers insist in high standards and some don't. Its best to see completed projects and speak to

happy customers.

Dave

[wildoates]

well, went to court today, what a joke.. they came in and offered 100K for a 700k bill, told them to take a hike, his lawyer saying will drag their feet for 5 years, I said don't care, then our lawyer told Palm to take the deal, told him to f&^k off. well the judge was a different judge than we seen before, feel they had it moved to someone they knew, he talked a deal before court, saying he would think that he would only award 200-300K and it would take years to get, that we should settle for 200K. they wanted to give us 50K in 30 days and 20 K per month until paid, judge and lawyer thought it was a good deal, told them to f#$k off. I paid all the money up front, he spent it on his own house and what ever, he can borrow the money. was told could not garnish his wages cause cant garnish government people wages, so we settled for 200K, 100K paid by end of month and has 3 months from today to pay other 100K. contract was written, I had put in that if he miss payment even by 1 day, that he then defaults for the full 700K, and would not have to return to court for ruling and he put his house and cars up that I can take. better than nothing, but his day will come, the scum, and the judge was clearly siding with him but at least knew he was wrong....... Issan justice......

I only agree to this because of my wife, it was hard for her to stand her ground when lawyer and judge was not on her side.

[enjoyinglife22]

Sorry to hear this... I too was a victim of a builder in Surin but from what I found out later my insistence and constant discussion (calmly) got me as close as I was ever going to get to the product I thought I was buying. I heard that many people haven't.

We had contracts, lawyers and many Thai people on our side but at the end of the day... they will win, in their mind anyway. Actually it sounds like you have/had the same builder I had or that maybe they went to the same building school

My next place will be already built, even if I do renovations on it I at least can either see what I'm buying or have some sort of control on the works in progress.

Again sorry to hear about this but it's a sad story heard time and time again...

[parryhandy]

So the lessons of this story are what ?

Pay for the house as it is being built, pay for the materials yourself buying as and when needed and never pay too much up front if anything ?

[zzaa09]

So the lessons of this story are what ?

Pay for the house as it is being built, pay for the materials yourself buying as and when needed and never pay too much up front if anything ?

Yes....as well as being present and quasi-supervising during construction. You're able to nip any problems that arise straight away. Houses built here almost never come into the budget that you planned initially. Paying as you go and managing cost upfront will be a benefit in the long run.

[Dave the Dude]

Yes....as well as being present and quasi-supervising during construction. You're able to nip any problems that arise straight away. Houses built here almost never come into the budget that you planned initially. Paying as you go and managing cost upfront will be a benefit in the long run.

Very true statement, as long as you can either speak the same language or get help from someone forceful enough to put your messages/concerns across exactly as they were meant.

That is were problems arise that can sometimes be marriage breaking or soul destroying (or both).

[wildoates]

So the lessons of this story are what ?

Pay for the house as it is being built, pay for the materials yourself buying as and when needed and never pay too much up front if anything ?

The reason I started this thread to warn other farangs of a crook. so others would not make the same mistake as myself.

[parryhandy]

So the lessons of this story are what ?

Pay for the house as it is being built, pay for the materials yourself buying as and when needed and never pay too much up front if anything ?

The reason I started this thread to warn other farangs of a crook. so others would not make the same mistake as myself.

Yes and very helpful but was just trying to come up with the best way to go about things to try and avoid/mitigate these problems.

[Pormax]

I am anticipating building a house in Buriram and have contacted a builder in Surin. Has website as Surin Builders, the builder is English and named Alan.

Is this the one you have had problems with. thanks

[wildoates]

I am anticipating building a house in Buriram and have contacted a builder in Surin. Has website as Surin Builders, the builder is English and named Alan.

Is this the one you have had problems with. thanks

No my person was a Thai architect

[bbradsby]

THE lessons for building anything, anywhere:

Be completely fair & more than explicit in your expectations via professionally-prepared drawings, specs and contract. Then, during construction, never let the builder get ahead of you money-wise as the work progresses, as you lose all your leverage and they tend to lose motivation. If you have to go to lawyers/court - only the lawyers/court win. If you stay ahead on money, the builder will remain amazingly responsive!

Now, the in's and outs of being able to maintain your footing in relation to the above Lessons are the stuff of contract law, construction management and architectural college coursework and years of nose-bloodied experience. They can't be taught via web forums, else building construction would be undertaken by Girlscouts for merit badges. And based on the stakes and risks involved in building construction projects, this is why a good architect and owner's rep construction manager can easily more than cover their fees via a great set of construction documents, keeping you ahead in the cashflow, successful defenses against change orders and avoided legal claims.

[OOTAI]

THE lessons for building anything, anywhere:

Be completely fair & more than explicit in your expectations via professionally-prepared drawings, specs and contract. Then, during construction, never let the builder get ahead of you money-wise as the work progresses, as you lose all your leverage and they tend to lose motivation. If you have to go to lawyers/court - only the lawyers/court win. If you stay ahead on money, the builder will remain amazingly responsive!

Now, the in's and outs of being able to maintain your footing in relation to the above Lessons are the stuff of contract law, construction management and architectural college coursework and years of nose-bloodied experience. They can't be taught via web forums, else building construction would be undertaken by Girlscouts for merit badges. And based on the stakes and risks involved in building construction projects, this is why a good architect and owner's rep construction manager can easily more than cover their fees via a great set of construction documents, keeping you ahead in the cashflow, successful defenses against change orders and avoided legal claims.

Over the past 2 years I think I have read most of the posts about building a house in Thailand on this and many other forums. My wife is also almost finished building her dream house here in Buriram. The post quoted above is the single most informative and truthful statement I have read. If anyone was to follow this advice to the letter then i believe they would have a succesful outcome. My wife did almost all of the above and there have been some issues which wouldn't have arisen if she had struck to the above advice.

Thank you bbradsby.

[frankganderson]

3 February 2011

Re. Thai contractors and contracts:

We ran through only two contractors in building an eight unit apartment single floor complex, which was a record. The first guy took off with owing us about 125,000 Baht in up-front "I gotta buy supplies" gesture, and the second guy, who was one of the ones working for the first, came in and had his immediate family as workers. Fortunately my wife and I both kept our cool through most of the second contractor's on-site time, and he left just before the electricity and water services were hooked up. However, after he left, we discovered several things:

1. many of the PVC water connections never had glue put in them, so developed leaks. One was under a livingroom floor already tiled over.

2. almost all of the faucets and taps the guy put in were handled differently, some just shoved in and pretended to be finished, and others were cemented in with tile cement.

3. a couple of the main kitchen/bathroom drain pipes were leaking horribly. One turned out to be totally cracked and would have had to had the wall and floor excavated if there had not been such a thing as epoxy putty.

4. Light and power switches/outlets were supposedly OK but several were wired incorrectly and a few not working at all.

5. Several water meter connections were leaking and had to be redone.

6. The list goes on, suffice it to say the crew finally left with the father saying, "Your specs are too high for me."

I have had a lot of bad comments about US contractors as well, but it seems that here they are particularly bad even when watching over their shoulder.

The thing to do is to have a Thai foreman who will do exactly as you want and let him handle everything with you inspecting once a day, etc. Also don't advance cash that is asked for, but always give less than asked. Don't accept excuses - these guys are always rotating money between jobs, using some of it for their own use and not paying workers, etc.

Have you mailed a REGISTERED letter in Thai, that explains what your concerns are with some sort of deadline? Was there a particular builders merchant such as Best Home, Modern IQ or one of the Home Marts you/he bought the majority of the building materials? Do you have a "relationship" and lines of communication with the owner of the builders merchant? Perhaps they can act as a liaison to help you resolve your situation. Especially if the builder is still in debt to a particular builders merchant. It has to be

"Win Win" for the Thai contractor to finish in the manner you deserve. My wife warned me that many Thai "tradesmen" will "walk away" rather than confront a difficult situation.

I'll go on record as saying that EVERY Expat I ever met in Thailand who had a home built, even by the so called "major builders" had "issues of concern" towards the "finish work". Maybe Thai building contracts do not "budget" construction funds properly, maybe we are more aware of "finish work" than basic early steps of the construction, but the "pace" sure seems to slow down towards the final stages.

I am not sure where you are with your builder in relationship to what you have paid and what he has not yet done, but it might be worth your time to meet in person with Khun Muk who UNDERSTANDS and speaks English at Surin Home Mart "over the tracks" leaving Surin heading towards ChomPhra. She has always treated me fairly and has helped several times when I had a "misunderstanding" about why certain things were being done in a particular manner when building our home. The same Thai general contractor we hired to build our home in Buriram province is now building near the original "Department Store" in downtown Surin. It could give you a point of reference on how her finish work is compared to your builder's finish work.

I think a "general contractor" is only as good as the "sub contractors" they hire. Most of the sub contractors who built our home I could recommend, but not all the subs were professional in my opinion. At least you are not in Hau Hin where contractors can take a "different" approach to disgruntled clients.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sarah-Oxley-t253626.html

I hope your home is finished in a proper manner and at least your roof is on prior to the rainy season.

[old wanderer]

Well it was quite an experience to watch my wife in action. She come from a small village outside of Surin. They are all Suay people there. After 10 years of marriage, and the death of her father, there came the time to re-do and modernize her mothers Thai house.

She went to a number of people around Surin, and finally got some people in from Bangkok to do the work. We were going to remodel the upstairs Thai house, and then poor cement and build a large room under the house with large windows, and smooth textured wall, complete with nice wood trim. Finally a nice porch/patio out in-front for people to sit a talk and eat sum tum.

This was all her money she was spending saved up from several rice farms she owns. She had started her own sewing business at age 22, so understands how to negotiate, and deal with suppliers.

I just sat back and sipped on my cold beer or coke, and watched the whole circus, She was pushing people, yelling in 3 different languages, (Thai, Suay, and Lao) making sure everything was going to come out perfect.

Amazingly it did. Her mother is super proud of having the #1 house in the village, my wife is proud of bring a piece of the farang world to the village, and most people in the village are happy they have such a nice looking home, except for 1 aunt that went crazy with jealousy, spent 1 million baht (extorted from her children), remodeling her house, and failed to match the quality, or design of my mother-in-laws home, so she left her husband and moved in with some of her kids in another city......

Yep building in Surin is interesting. Glad I have a wife that love style and know how to work with the local people.