150 Baht Atm Fee

[Priceless]

When comparing the fees charged by Thai banks one should also look at the exchange rate quoted by different banks. For example, the latest rates for the US dollar quoted by four banks at the moment are as follows:

34.40 Bank of Ayudhya

34.38 Bangkok Bank

34.37 Kasikorn

34.18 Siam Commercial Bank

Use this formula for the calculation:

a = amount of THB withdrawn

f = ATM fee of Thai bank

d = amount debited to foreign account

r = (a - f)/d = Baht per unit of foreign currency

The bank that gives the highest value for r gives you the best value.

Where did you find that Siam Commercial Bank rate? The rate used for ATM (as far as I know) and wire transfers iis the T/T rate. Since today is Sunday, they use Friday's rates, which were as follows:

I.e. 34.38 THB/USD from SCB, not 34.18

/ Priceless

[Emeritus]

Thank your for pointing that out, Priceless. I did indeed get the figure from the wrong column and the correct rate of Siam commercial bank is 34.38.

[Priceless]

Thank your for pointing that out, Priceless. I did indeed get the figure from the wrong column and the correct rate of Siam commercial bank is 34.38.

Happens to the best of us

/ Priceless

[Mapguy]

Given the spread on the USD (See below) and the bother, I don't see much argument about which banks to use except when there are a lot of small transactions with a card that happens to have a relatively high charge --- and those do vary, depending on both the receiving and sending banks. But that begs the question as to why the heavy use of ATM cards. Service charges on ATM cards have been around for quite some time. Rare not to find them. I never use an ATM card except for occasional convenience, as in traveling. Otherwise, small ATM withdrawals internationally --- or domestically --- don't generally make a lot of sense.

I suggest regular wire transfers. I once queried a bank transfer specialist about wire transfers and got a remarkably detailed response about the in's and out's of it. When you added it all up, that wasn't worth worrying about, either. We're not talking megabuck arbitrage here, folks!

Now, if you are really silly, you can always use Western Union!

34.40 Bank of Ayudhya

34.38 Bangkok Bank

34.37 Kasikorn

34.38* Siam Commercial Bank * (corrected)

Use this formula for the calculation:

a = amount of THB withdrawn

f = ATM fee of Thai bank

d = amount debited to foreign account

r = (a - f)/d = Baht per unit of foreign currency

The bank that gives the highest value for r gives you the best value.

[mcgriffith]

Before I move this to banking forum, I will address a question or two on this issue.

When you withdraw monies from a foreign bank account, taking cash out of a Thai bank ATM...yes, you can go online that same day to your home bank website, and see your withdrawal. Which really means absolutely nothing in terms of fees, or back end currency adjustments, or end of statement cycle charges.

The only way to truly see the entire money transfer, with all fees, is to go to the Thai bank you use, and ask for a 1 page report.

Bangkok Bank calls it a "Record Inquiry". Other banks might use a different term. I'm looking at one right now as I write this.

Most people think that if they have say 10,000 pounds in a UK account, and the current exchange rate is 65 baht/pound (just an example), and the amount available is shown as 650,000 baht....and they then withdraw 10,000 baht....and the remaining balance AT THAT MOMENT (my emphasis) is shown as 640,000 baht- they have convinced themselves that they are paying no fees.

They are very mistaken in this naive assumption.

Some banks, whatever network they operate on, whether Cirrus, or Star, or Mastercard, or Visa, or misc. other networks, DO rebate ATM fees from other banks, domestically (in home country).

As an example, a UK bank will waive fees for preferred customers who use other banks in the UK. Or if you are a HSBC Preferred client, you get ATM fees discounted worldwide.

But generally, with rare exception as noted above, when you take Thai baht cash out of a Thai bank ATM, using a foreign bank ATM card, you are paying somewhere. Either (as I first mentioned in my original post) in a few 1/10's being shaved off the exchange rate, or an international transfer or currency exchange fee that is tacked on at the end of the statement cycle.

I had a friend who once insisted he was paying nothing, because the rate he got that day was the same rate he saw on CNN. Hello?

This is like comparing oranges with pomegranates with pineapples.

Moved.

[SurfRider]

"When you withdraw monies from a foreign bank account, taking cash out of a Thai bank ATM...yes, you can go online that same day to your home bank website, and see your withdrawal. Which really means absolutely nothing in terms of fees, or back end currency adjustments, or end of statement cycle charges. -- The only way to truly see the entire money transfer, with all fees, is to go to the Thai bank you use, and ask for a 1 page report.Bangkok Bank calls it a "Record Inquiry"."

We're clearly living in two different worlds, or comparing the proverbial "apples and oranges"

When I go to ANY Thai ATM and withdraw funds from my U.S. Checking Account using a VISA Debit Card, there is NO THAI BANK INVOLVED, so I could not get whatever report you're referring to even if I wanted to.

It's the same as if was in Zimbabwe, London, Mozambique, or wherever -- THERE IS NO LOCAL BANK INVOLVED!

The cash is dispensed in the local currency of whatever country I'm in at the moment and the result shows up almost instantly as a one-line entry in my on-line account which allows me to calculate whatever exchange rate I received as soon as I can get on-line after the withdrawal.

Period! -- End of Story! -- No foreign bank or report involved and no mystery!

Edited May 17, 2009 by SurfTrader

[JimGant]

All the K Bank transactions converted at slightly higher than the BKK bank TT rate. 0.10 to 0.215 baht/$ higher. The [sCB] rate excluding the fee was 0.09 baht/$ higher than the BKK TT rate.

Well, you got as advertised -- the Interbank Exchange Rate -- which 99% of the time is 10-25 satang better than the TT rate. And it does show that the Fidelity card pays all your fees, which it would seem, are cheaper than the your value as a client. Now, I believe Fidelity also gives free SWIFT wire transfers -- which may now become your cheapest option for cash in Thailand.

I see no fee hidden in those transactions. In fact, you even got a better rate than the latest rate of 34.40 quoted on the website of Bank of Ayudhya for buying T/T

Again, the Interbank Exchange Rate *is* better than the TT rate.

No notice and no fee, so I am confused on whether Bank of Ayudhya has instituted the fee or not, it is obviously not hidden in the rate, GSB did give receipt and it shows FEE 0

You used Visa. Thus, no Dynamic Currency Conversion and no fee -- yet -- at Bank of Ayudhaya (only applies to MasterCard/Cirrus branded ATM/Debit cards). Oh, the 34.44 rate for 17 May seems slightly below the Interbank Exchange Rate. Are you sure your E*Trade card is completely without fees?

[JimGant]

FWIW, the exchange rate on this morning's withdrawal appears to have been 52.41 but I think that's Nationwide's (which will actually be Visa's) fx rate not KBank's.

Right. All banks but Bank of Ayudhaya (which is using DCC for Cirrus transactions) are using the networks' exchange rates (which approximate the Interbank Exchange Rates).

Where did you find that Siam Commercial Bank rate? The rate used for ATM (as far as I know) and wire transfers iis the T/T rate

TT for wire and ACH transfers -- not for ATM transactions.

I don't use a credit card to draw funds out of the ATM from my overseas bank account. I use a Cirrus logo card issued by my bank in Australia.

So, any talk about increased charges being passed down by Visa & Mastercard simply don't apply.

Nope. When you say Cirrus, you're saying MasterCard -- its daddy.

[JimGant]

I had a friend who once insisted he was paying nothing, because the rate he got that day was the same rate he saw on CNN. Hello?

He was paying nothing, if he had one of those fee less cards, where the issuer pays all your fees because they value your patronage. The ATM owner was getting part of this payment, yes. It just wasn't at your friend's expense.

It appears to cost only around US $10 to transfer up to US $2000

A $2000 ACH transfer is only $5. Between $2001-$50,000 is $10. Definitely cheaper than wire transfers. Same fees as wire transfers on the Thai end -- .25%, minimum 200bt, max 500bt. Also, you get the TT rate, same as a wire. If your bank has free ACH transfers (many do), the cost to send $8000 to Thailand is .3%. In my experience, it takes two days (longer for some banks, like Bank of America, who have a middleman).

[Carmine6]

All the K Bank transactions converted at slightly higher than the BKK bank TT rate. 0.10 to 0.215 baht/$ higher. The [sCB] rate excluding the fee was 0.09 baht/$ higher than the BKK TT rate.

Well, you got as advertised -- the Interbank Exchange Rate -- which 99% of the time is 10-25 satang better than the TT rate. And it does show that the Fidelity card pays all your fees, which it would seem, are cheaper than the your value as a client. Now, I believe Fidelity also gives free SWIFT wire transfers -- which may now become your cheapest option for cash in Thailand.

Well they did charge the full amount including the 150 baht fee. I'm not sure if they'd rebate that as I haven't called them about it. They do appear to not pass through any other fees the bank(s), VISA, or network providers may charge. This in spite of their website saying "For each foreign transaction, Visa charges a foreign transaction fee of 1%, which will be included in the amount charged to your account."

As for free SWIFT transfers - Fidelity used to be free, but then started charging $15. It shows up at the end of the month so is not so easy to notice. Also it appears to be a manual entry so it's possible to get lucky and have them not enter it. I have Gold (active trader) status. Some other statuses may have free transfers. "Private Client Group" for example, although when I looked at that the fee was I think over 1% of assets annually.

[JimGant]

They do appear to not pass through any other fees the bank(s), VISA, or network providers may charge. This in spite of their website saying "For each foreign transaction, Visa charges a foreign transaction fee of 1%, which will be included in the amount charged to your account."

Some banks will, several days after the initial transaction, hit you up with an additional charge, represented by a reduced exchange rate. Thus the first charge you see right after you hit the ATM machine is essentially a "pending" charge, later to be modified upwards by the new exchange rate modifier. Presumably, Fidelity is not one of these guys..........?

I would imagine, since they appear to be 'eating' the 1% foreign transaction fee, as well as any other fees, that you have a balance and/or activity level that puts you in a favored status. From your post, I guess you have nothing definitive on just why you're in the freebie category..........?

[prakhonchai nick]

Have just made an ATM withdrawal from K bank using a Nationwide Flex card, and for the first time have been charged the 150bt fee. On a 15000bt transaction (the maximum permitted by Nationwide - ie £300), I got a rate of 51.89bt. Had the 150bt fee not been charged I would have effectively received a rate of 52,41. Quite a significant difference!

[Langsuan Man]

I don't understand why everyone keeps harping on the different exchange rates for different banks ?

I really don't care what the posted rate is, I don't much care what the rate published in the Bangkok Post says, and I really don't care what the rate is that people here on Thai Visa get from the Thai Bank internet sites

All I care about is how much I get when I use MY ATM CARD

So far every test that I have done, on 10 Thai Banks, over the course of the last month, the rate I got from my US Etrade Bank ATM card was identical no matter which Thai bank was used

Just look at yesterday:

In Process ATM BAY PATTAYA TAI BR.#2 ... -145.14 = 34.44 THB per 1 USD (Bank of Ayudhya )

In Process ATM GSB TUEKCOM PATTAYA FL... -145.14 = 34.44 THB per 1 USD (Government Savings Bank)

Or a Test done on Sat April 18th

Kasikorn Bank, no fee, Exchange rate 35.34

Bangkok Bank, no fee, Exchange rate 35.34

Bank of Ayudhaya, no fee, Exchange rate, 35.34

Government Savings Bank, no fee, Exchange rate 35.34

Now can it just be a coincidence that the only thing that stays constant is the E*trade ATM card rate

So if you want to know which bank gives the best rate then try my experiment and I think that any difference is going to be your FOREIGN BANK not which Thai Bank you used

[Briggsy]

Good post again, Langsuan Man.

[Emeritus]

I don't understand why everyone keeps harping on the different exchange rates for different banks ?...

From what JimGant posted, I was wrong in pointing out the different T/T rates used by different banks. Jim says that the interbank rate is used for ATM withdrawals and this explains why all banks use the same rate. I don't know where the interbank rate is published but I'm sure it's somewhere on the web. So please forget everything I said about the T/T rate; it is irrelevant.

[JimGant]

So far every test that I have done, on 10 Thai Banks, over the course of the last month, the rate I got from my US Etrade Bank ATM card was identical no matter which Thai bank was used

Amen. Before this 150bt fee came along, the only thing governing the exchange rates you got at individual ATM machines was: the nature of your particular ATM/Debit card. Today, surcharges -- and dynamic currency conversion (DCC) -- have been added to the equation.

For a bank to subscribe to the Visa/Plus or MasterCard/Cirrus networks, there are rules they must follow. By signing up, they agree to the interchange fees they'll receive per transaction -- plus, they agree to accept the network's exchange rate. This last point, however, was modified when DCC was implemented: banks could set their own exchange rates and do the actual conversions. The networks would, of course, still get a piece of the action -- but they had to change the name of this 'action' to 'foreign transaction fee', not 'foreign exchange fee.' Also, since the networks realized what a screw job this could be to the consumer, they demanded that banks setting their own exchange rates (under DCC) had to notify the consumer, up front, of this option -- and allow him to decline. This was originally with credit cards -- and when you signed the receipt, you attested that you accepted the DCC rate. With ATM machines, I guess just walking away means the same thing........not exactly sure what, if any, warnings the Bank of Ayudhaya ATM machines present.......(?).

Anyway, banks have always been allowed to surcharge ATM transactions -- huge legal action on this in the States years ago. Surprised Thailand banks haven't done this earlier.

And, yeah, they can set their own exchange rates -- but only under the DCC umbrella.

[Carmine6]

They do appear to not pass through any other fees the bank(s), VISA, or network providers may charge. This in spite of their website saying "For each foreign transaction, Visa charges a foreign transaction fee of 1%, which will be included in the amount charged to your account."

Some banks will, several days after the initial transaction, hit you up with an additional charge, represented by a reduced exchange rate. Thus the first charge you see right after you hit the ATM machine is essentially a "pending" charge, later to be modified upwards by the new exchange rate modifier. Presumably, Fidelity is not one of these guys..........?

I would imagine, since they appear to be 'eating' the 1% foreign transaction fee, as well as any other fees, that you have a balance and/or activity level that puts you in a favored status. From your post, I guess you have nothing definitive on just why you're in the freebie category..........?

Well it's buried in the 2nd paragraph, but I get ATM fee rebates and other discounts because "I have Gold (active trader) status."

But the fine print on the 1% VISA fee is for all accounts. Their ATM cards are managed by FIA Cardservices which is owned by B of A, so perhaps they have some communication issue between them. I'm not about to complain.

[barryofthailand]

They do appear to not pass through any other fees the bank(s), VISA, or network providers may charge. This in spite of their website saying "For each foreign transaction, Visa charges a foreign transaction fee of 1%, which will be included in the amount charged to your account."

Some banks will, several days after the initial transaction, hit you up with an additional charge, represented by a reduced exchange rate. Thus the first charge you see right after you hit the ATM machine is essentially a "pending" charge, later to be modified upwards by the new exchange rate modifier. Presumably, Fidelity is not one of these guys..........?

I would imagine, since they appear to be 'eating' the 1% foreign transaction fee, as well as any other fees, that you have a balance and/or activity level that puts you in a favored status. From your post, I guess you have nothing definitive on just why you're in the freebie category..........?

Well it's buried in the 2nd paragraph, but I get ATM fee rebates and other discounts because "I have Gold (active trader) status."

But the fine print on the 1% VISA fee is for all accounts. Their ATM cards are managed by FIA Card Services which is owned by B of A, so perhaps they have some communication issue between them. I'm not about to complain.

I get rebates for the 1% Visa fee, so in essence my ATM withdrawals are free excluding the 150 Baht charge which so far I have been able to escape.

Barry

[jfchandler]

Right. All banks but Bank of Ayudhaya (which is using DCC for Cirrus transactions) are using the networks' exchange rates (which approximate the Interbank Exchange Rates).

Jim, I believe the correct info is, Ayudhya is using DCC for MasterCard transactions on accounts based in U.S. $ or Euros. That is what the signs on their ATMs say.

I've seen no indication they're using DCC for Visa cards or MasterCards denominated in other currencies.

[jfchandler]

I too have a Visa debit card checking account in the U.S. that rebates all the VISA 1% fees at the end of each statement cycle (whether they be on purchases or ATM withdrawals, and the 1% amounts do show up as separate line items in my online banking ledger).

I've yet to use that VISA card at any Thai ATM that's charging the 150 baht fee. I haven't heard if anyone else has either. It will be interesting to see, if someone tries that, whether the 150 baht amounts will be covered in their reimbursements.

If they were covered, that would make using Thai ATMs much easier, because you could basically use any Thai bank's ATM and not have to worry about the 150 baht fee, because you'll get it back.

If it turns out the 150 baht amounts are not getting reimbursed by our home banks, and not showing up separately in our home banking ledgers, then that narrows the field a bit to using Government Savings Bank ATMs and only VISA cards. (I'm assuming, based on various reports here, that Bank of Ayudhya will soon start charging the 150 baht fee, if they haven't done so already...)

Separately, I mentioned in another post in a related thread here. I withdraw funds from a BKK Bank ATM the other day with a U.S. MasterCard logo debit card, knowing I'd get hit with the 150 baht ATM fee. When the transaction showed up in my U.S. bank's online banking ledger, it was listed only as a single amount reflecting the total of my W/D and the 150 baht fee combined. The fee was not listed separately in my banking ledger.

This particular bank is one that reimburses for ATM fees up to $25 per month. But in order for them to do it automatically, the fee has to show up at their end as a separate listing/charge. When it doesn't show up as a separate charge, they'll still reimburse me for the fee up to the monthly limit. But I'd have to mail copy/copies of the Thai bank ATM receipts to them showing the fee listed. That's not the path I want to take, needless to say.

[SurfRider]

"I don't understand why everyone keeps harping on the different exchange rates for different banks? . . . I really don't care what the posted rate is, I don't much care what the rate published in the Bangkok Post says"

You are correct -- none of this matters unless you are interested in saving money and getting the best possible deal when moving funds into Thailand from a foreign country via an ATM.

My focus has been purely with transfers from the USA and only with a VISA Debit Card, which seems to be the only card that is free of various imposed fees ( refundable or not ) on both the sending and receiving ends of a transfer.

When this discussion started, there were many banks and various exchange rates in play -- It appears that field has been narrowed to ONLY TWO ATMs that are reliably not charging the new usury fee, and one sometimes charging and sometimes not ( Ayudyah )

GSB is not charging the new fee and is giving a favorable rate, as well as the highest reported maximum limit of 30,000 Baht per transaction.

UOB is not charging the fee, but in an example posted earlier, a 20,000 Baht transaction at a UOB ATM will incur a "hidden fee" of 180 Baht, due to an unfavorable exchange rate given by UOB.

Ayudyah still seems to be uncertain -- if one of their ATMs charges you the fee, it's NOT a good deal, but if it doesn't charge the fee, it's an OK deal, but limited to 20,000 Baht per transaction.

Choose your poison . . .

[barryofthailand]

I checked today, and Government Savings Bank is giving the same rate as SCB which is the highest rate in Thailand. Today's rate was 34.48 Baht to one U.S. Dollar, and not charging the 150 baht service charge.

Barry

[Langsuan Man]

"I don't understand why everyone keeps harping on the different exchange rates for different banks? . . . I really don't care what the posted rate is, I don't much care what the rate published in the Bangkok Post says"

You are correct -- none of this matters unless you are interested in saving money and getting the best possible deal when moving funds into Thailand from a foreign country via an ATM.

I guess that you didn't bother to read the rest of the post where I showed, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, that the exchange rate is set by my US Bank

In over 10 transactions, all done on the same, day my E*trade Bank gave me the same US DOLLAR RATE NO MATTER WHAT BANK ATM I USED

Now if you want to do the same test and prove me wrong go at it

If you are interested in saving money and getting the best possible deal when moving funds into Thailand from a foreign country via an ATM. investigate your FOREIGN BANK, not your Thai bank

[SurfRider]

"gave me the same US DOLLAR RATE NO MATTER WHAT BANK ATM I USED"

Did you do one of your tests at a UOB ( United Overseas Bank ) ATM?

GSB and UOB are the only two that are reliably NOT charging the new 150 Baht usury fee. ( Ayudyha reportedly, sometimes yes and sometimes no )

It has been reported that UOB overrides your foreign bank rate and gives the lower DCC rate ( presumably pocketing the difference )

I have no interest in trying it myself, but that is what has been reported.

.

Edited May 21, 2009 by SurfTrader

[Capealava]

http://www.newsweek.com//frameset.aspx/?ur...3430137033.html

Banks are parasites period. Maybe necessary parasites with our financial system--but unethical thieves nonetheless/

[RachaRob]

So dissapointed, yesterday went to K bank and got the bloody 150 B ATM fee

[Langsuan Man]

Today, May 21, Bank of Ayudhaya, ATM located in lobby of Tukcom in Pattaya, 20,000 THB 13:00 (1 PM) E*trade Bank, Visa branded ATM card NO FEE

In Process ATM BAY COM BUILDING PATTA... -582.13 = 34.35

[jfchandler]

LM, thanks for doing the work and research on this. I was doing the same this morning, saving bookmarks for the different major Thai banks' exchange rate web pages.

What I can't figure from your post, however, is where the exchange rate you actually got came from. The actual 34.35 rate you got doesn't match any of the rates quoted on the BofA web page, nor could I get to it by adding or subtacting 1% (Visa cut?) from any of the posted rates...

I'd assume they would be using a "Buying Dollars" rate, not a "selling dollars" rate, because the bank is buying your dollars and giving you baht in return...

Do you have any idea how your rate got derived???

[Langsuan Man]

My point exactly, the rate I got was from using my E*trade ATM card at a Bank of Ayudhaya ATM, THE REAL RATE, the Rate that I got in my hot little hands, not the published rate, not the Interbank rate, but the rate that E*trade gave me in Thai Baht for $582.13 US dollars

The ATM gave me 20,000 Thai Baht and E*trade charged me $582.13

to once again re-reinforce my statement:

If you are interested in saving money and getting the best possible deal when moving funds into Thailand from a foreign country via an ATM investigate your FOREIGN BANK, not your Thai bank

[Langsuan Man]

In Process ATM BAY COM BUILDING PATTA... -582.13

This is the copied and pasted detail from my E*trade online statement done immediately after the transaction, an no, I will not do a screen shot so that you can see what my bank balance is

Edited May 21, 2009 by Langsuan Man