Ever Noticed How B/g's Pray Before Starting Work?

[camerata]

I asked some Thai colleagues, the agreed answer was:

- Some will be praying for forgiveness for doing naughty things,

- Some will be praying for good luck and money,

We'll never know for sure unless we ask them. Sounds like a good research project for someone...

[kenai]

There is certainly nothing christian about continually knocking a group of people because you may disagree with their employment choice.....

Quite frankly I doubt they give a thought to what you pray for or how you are employed.........

Just let them make the best of their lives eh......have some of you people nothing better to do than deride people who are not awarded the free choice of response to your insipid comments......

Cowardly and uncharitable...certainly not condoned by christians or Bhuddist

Exactly. Those in difficult situations are the ones whom can use faith and prayer in any belief.

The bar girls would be praying for anything anyone else in the country or world prays for. Why should it be amusing?

They are not saying one thing and doing another so I dont find it hypocritical at all.

Also these women are more often then not sending money to their family and parents. By doing so achieving merit per their belief. The fact that they sell their bodies is simply their current destiny and situation.

Women are often seen as on a lower status as men and the fact that their job is serving men could bring them merit and help them to be reborn maybe as a man the next time around.

[camerata]

I know a girl who done the full dance in Golden Bar opposite Nana toprey to Buddha as in with the full dress on, and she prayed to get out of her predicament.

I think she's getting Buddha confused with Brahma at the Erawan Shrine down the road. He's the one who likes the female form and dancing - clothed or unclothed.

[JetsetBkk]

...I met HH Dalai Lama in India years ago and got lectures on Buddhism...

Did you complete the course?

[Digitalman]

Just because a girl works in a bar doesn't make her hopes, dreams, beliefs, opinions, or whatever that much different than all the people who don't. It doesn't make her less human either. I imagine they are thinking the same sort of things as everybody else.

Maybe she was praying for a good meal, healing for a loved one, good business for the day, good sex, or to get rid of her headache. Maybe she prayed for that farang to stop watching her while she gets her pray on. Maybe she prayed nothing at all..

Perhaps in the classical greek sort of way, the idea of wearing a mask or acting, they deserve the hypocritical title, but I don't think there is anything contradictory in their actions if thats what was being implied.

[buffcoat]

From a westernised perspective with a very strong dose of sin as a moral yardstick their actions could be construed as hypocritical but from a Buddhist viewpoint it absolutely is not.

That is not to say that their actions would be seen as good but they would be expected to make merit to restore the balance of their negative action. The negative action here would only impinge on their own soul and not impact anyone else so in that sense their negative action is less 'bad' than telling a lie which harms someone else.

I know this is a very simplistic explanation of a complex question and because there are different strands of Buddhism and because of the emphasis on personal responsibility/morality it is hard to put it simply for a Western audience and I am certain what I have said here falls well short of a proper description.

[cobra]

Soldiers pray before killing others. Boxers pray before punching someone's lights out. Gamblers pray before loosing all their money. Competitors of every variety pray to win at the expense of their rivals. God's are biased and easily manipulated, it would seem.

Like the old Indian in The Outlaw Jose Wales said,

..."it's good to have an edge"...

[Neeranam]

Im afraid RESPECT and HONESTLY are mispaced words in this sentance,and i have to say that asking for forgiveness prior to commiting a sin/or for assisatnce to commit one is hypocritical in my opinion, i think with these types honesty and respect flew out the window when greed flew in, that will unfortunatly apply to the parents also, money number one,.

No one said anything about sinning or asking for forgiveness. This is just projecting Christian ideas onto Buddhism. In Buddhism, if you do something bad, you make merit to compensate.

Some high monks(Mahayana and Theravada) I asked about if you can change bad karma had differing views. Some said you always have to pay for bad acts (in this life or the next, whilst some said you can wipe the slate clean by making merit and/or praying.

QUOTE (Neeranam @ 2009-06-01 16:06:07) *

...I met HH Dalai Lama in India years ago and got lectures on Buddhism...

Did you complete the course?

I completed a 13 day course/retreat.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Neeranam

[Petesear]

Sitting at a bar on the ground floor of Nana Plaza the other week I noticed that all the bar girls stopped and prayed at their respective little alters.

Not just some of them...ALL of them.

Now this somewhat seemed hypocritical to me and got me wondering just what it is they are actually praying for.

Are they praying for:

1) God to help them get out of this awefull mess they've found themselves in? (unlikely)

2) God to give them a rich jai dee customer tonight?

3) God to bless their family and friends?

4) Non of the above they just pray out of habit.

What else could they be praying for?

I think on this occasion they may have been praying that the bloke sitting at a bar on the ground floor who seemed to be watching ALL the girls as they went in doesn't pay their bar fine....

I guess you don't work in Thailand, if you did you would notice that most Buddhists pray before they start work.....

[IanForbes]

Why would it be hypocritical?

Praying for good fortune whilst selling their body for money! would this be classed as hypocritical?

What do you think The Lord Buddha's take on this would be? Approval?

Do you know what "Hypocritical" means?

Hmmm....So, selling (renting out, actually) your muscles or your brain is ok, but selling (renting out, actually) your genitals puts you beyond the pale, forfeiting your right to pray for a better or more prosperous life?

Very good point, bobbin. I've made similar points many times. Due to their own perverted views on life, I dislike people who judge others as inferiors.

[Jimjim]

What a ridiculous, judgemental topic.

[njpski]

If you are a religious person, then prayer cannot be hypocritical. You are following the precepts of your faith.

All work is commendable, even lawyers have their good points.

Is a ballet dancer any "better" than a pole dancer? Both dance, both have superb levels of fitness, both train and learn new moves.

It is so judeo-christian-muslim to associate pleasure with "sin". As a child educated in a Christian Brothers school (I was not molested, so I was a lucky one), we were taught sex was for reproduction not relaxation/fun.

The pope prays every day to his god asking his god to stop people using condoms in HIV-AIDS riddled countries.

Do I think it hyprocritical to pray dependent on your occupation - no!

[endure]

They're praying that they'll be able to say 'you hansum man' later on in the evening while keeping a straight face

[Orac]

What a ridiculous, judgemental topic.

Agreed - but it is refreshing to see that most of the responses are not judgmental and show how out of touch the OP is trying to transplant his victorian values to Thailand.

[StateSix]

Sitting at a bar on the ground floor of Nana Plaza the other week I noticed that all the bar girls stopped and prayed at their respective little alters.

Not just some of them...ALL of them.

Now this somewhat seemed hypocritical to me and got me wondering just what it is they are actually praying for.

Are they praying for:

1) God to help them get out of this awefull mess they've found themselves in? (unlikely)

2) God to give them a rich jai dee customer tonight?

3) God to bless their family and friends?

4) Non of the above they just pray out of habit.

What else could they be praying for?

Is it not a little hypocritical to look down on the girls working there whilst you yourself are sitting in Nana Plaza supporting the same businesses?

[StateSix]

If you are a religious person, then prayer cannot be hypocritical. You are following the precepts of your faith.

All work is commendable, even lawyers have their good points.

Is a ballet dancer any "better" than a pole dancer? Both dance, both have superb levels of fitness, both train and learn new moves.

It is so judeo-christian-muslim to associate pleasure with "sin". As a child educated in a Christian Brothers school (I was not molested, so I was a lucky one), we were taught sex was for reproduction not relaxation/fun.

The pope prays every day to his god asking his god to stop people using condoms in HIV-AIDS riddled countries.

Do I think it hyprocritical to pray dependent on your occupation - no!

In the dark, distant past when I went to gogos, I don't remember seeing too many dancers with 'superb levels of fitness'. I do remember girls of varying sizes, doing a bored, two step shuffle predominantly

Agree with the rest of your points though.

[bonobo]

The Buddha would not have approved of working girls. He was not a sex man - despite raising a son and being an absent father for many years.

One of the Buddha's most devoted followers was a courtesan whom he never criticized. He seemed more concerned about men who spend a lot of time with "harlots."

In Christianity Mary Magdalene was also said to be a "Working girl"!

Going OT now, but that was probably part of the conspiracy to demonise her. She also may have been a priestess, and certainly was the author of one of the gnostic gospels.

Staying OT, "magdala" was the euphanism for a working girl because of the large number of them at the fishing town of the same name.  And Mary of Bethany, who annointed Jesus' feet, was most likely one.  An early pope, possibly Gregory, thought that Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene were the same person, and he also refered to Mary as a sinner.   But as far as I know, there is no direct reference in the Bible to Mary Magdalene as a prostitute.  Regardless, Jesus himself seemed not to judge prostitutes harshly.

[hhgz]

"What else could they be praying for?"

Why don't you ask them?

[Naam]

Sitting at a bar on the ground floor of Nana Plaza the other week I noticed that all the bar girls stopped and prayed at their respective little alters.

Not just some of them...ALL of them. Now this somewhat seemed hypocritical to me and got me wondering just what it is they are actually praying for.

Are they praying for:

1) God to help them get out of this awefull mess they've found themselves in? (unlikely)

2) God to give them a rich jai dee customer tonight?

3) God to bless their family and friends?

4) Non of the above they just pray out of habit.

What else could they be praying for?

they are praying that ignorant and self-righteous hypocrites like you are leaving Thailand.

[Livinginexile]

Sitting at a bar on the ground floor of Nana Plaza the other week I noticed that all the bar girls stopped and prayed at their respective little alters.

Not just some of them...ALL of them. Now this somewhat seemed hypocritical to me and got me wondering just what it is they are actually praying for.

Are they praying for:

1) God to help them get out of this awefull mess they've found themselves in? (unlikely)

2) God to give them a rich jai dee customer tonight?

3) God to bless their family and friends?

4) Non of the above they just pray out of habit.

What else could they be praying for?

they are praying that ignorant and self-righteous hypocrites like you are leaving Thailand.

Naan my friend

Why so touchy?

Close to home?

[think_too_mut]

What a ridiculous, judgemental topic.

Yes, agree.

University students "pray" when they pass a spiritual house, many Thais do the same.

Nothing special.

[orang37]

Fascinating.

imho what is in a Thai person's mind as they pause before a san pha phum (shrine) in an act of ritual devotion is a profound mystery, and I suspect the mystery varies from person to person, and with any one person varies with circumstances.

from what i know of my two selves, human and orang, i believe the mystery will have a "foreground" and a "context," and perhaps a shifting, oscillating cluster of "foregrounds," "shimmering" against the context, where the context iteself can be both conscious and unconscious.

but to use such language is to have already framed the act of perception through "western" bi-focals made of dualities like mind/body, trivium/quadrivium, Aristotle/Plato, phenomenon/essence.

Thai Theravadan Buddhism (as Roman Catholicism in Brazil) supports (without what for westerners would be "cognitive dissonance") both old underground aquifers of animism, relics of (perhaps matriarchal) rice-farming south China culture, Indic and Brahmanic tides from both the Khmers and the Mon, a Sri Lankan - South Indian origin, and reflects a deliberate "ordering" and "re-structuring" by Kings Mongkut and King Rama V for geo-political reasons as well as religious reasons (see Betty Gosling and other scholars for details on this).

And like in any religion, "reformers" spring up, like the famous Phra Buddhadasa, who attempt to change the religion, to move it away from animism, and any idea of magical intervention back to what they view as the "root," the fundamental teachings.

i think it important to keep in mind that northern Thai Buddhism owes a great deal to Sinhalese (Sri Lankan) Buddhism from which it was perhaps established via Sukhothai, and certainly "refreshed" here in Lanna in the 15th. century.

i wonder why we need to make sense of what appears to be another culture's lack of unity when we can't really experience our own unity so easily ? my own human is a bizarre patch-work of cultural relics from England, France, as much the product of his great-grandfather being a civil war orphan as his grandfather losing 1000 acres of prime south Georgia farmland during the Great Depression, as much the product of his father being raised with frequent whippings and Horatio Alger stories, as much the product of World War II (when he was conceived) as much the product of a certain American optimism where a whole generation (baby boomers) were raised in a surfeit of material goods without encountering the trauma of war and economic failure ... and so it goes ...

the only thing that makes the behavior of another human being seem "shallow," seem explainable by "sound bytes," to me is my own lack of depth. one of my human's favorite sociologists from long ago was Erving Goffman who wrote a whole book which worked backwards from one handshake of two people to exploring the endlessly rich contexts that surrounded that handshake.

~o:37;

"Do I contradict myself ?

I am large, I contain multitudes"

Walt Whitman

[longstebe]

After reading all the replies.

Does the OP still think its hypocritical?

It only seems to be you who thinks so.

[dcfc2007]

why do some people have such a disgusting one dimensional view of thai people.

[tw25rw]

Bearing in mind this thread and the OPs claim to Christian values I think the OP needs to be more considered in his accusations of hypocrisy.

[sabaijai]

Sitting at a bar on the ground floor of Nana Plaza the other week I noticed that all the bar girls stopped and prayed at their respective little alters.

Not just some of them...ALL of them.

Now this somewhat seemed hypocritical to me and got me wondering just what it is they are actually praying for.

Are they praying for:

1) God to help them get out of this awefull mess they've found themselves in? (unlikely)

2) God to give them a rich jai dee customer tonight?

3) God to bless their family and friends?

4) Non of the above they just pray out of habit.

What else could they be praying for?

Is it not a little hypocritical to look down on the girls working there whilst you yourself are sitting in Nana Plaza supporting the same businesses?

[Birdman]

OP, there is a good range of books about Buddhism and Thai culture at the book stores. Check that out...

[wackysleet]

Very clear the OP knows nothing about Thailand , their culture ,

and thoughts and believes .

Very much ignorant and lofty attitude you have there .

But you just could learn something from them , no matter you believe it

or not and the fact that you are in a different culture with different customs then your own .

If you bothered to read and attempt to understand the op then he was asking for reasons why the girls do it as it was fairly obvious that he did not know about the custom, that does not make him a fool or anything else.

Why is it that TV has so many posters that just cannot wait to put someone down, have you nothing better to do with your time, and as for people not knowing something that is no more of a crime than not being able to correctly express oneself in english, it's not a crime so give people a break for christs sake.

[howardjarvis]

i think they r thanking buddha for getting them out of rice work.

which they may have to go back to seeing the decrerase in business at many bras. counted 60 girls 10 customers at one of the better known nana girlie bars, at prime time no less.

[harrry]

There are those who half read one book...like it and are too scared to read anything else. These are the ones who decry others beliefs.