A Teacher In Trouble

[Scott]

Thanks for the input so far. Our school doesn't have a clear-cut policy about students having phone numbers, but so far the foreign teachers are pretty adamant about not wanting students or parents to have their phone number. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but one of the outcomes of this will probably be some clearer policies about teacher-student interaction--both in and out of school.

This guy isn't and hasn't ever been accused of any hands-on offense and there is no indication he ever met students outside of school without their parents present. The allegation is showing 'inappropriate' attention and interest in a student. Whether there is more things 'hidden' or not, I don't know and that's part of what needs to investigated.

My duty, as I see it, is to first make sure the students are protected and second, that he has an employee is protected. I certainly don't want to participate in getting rid of someone based on hysteria and unfounded accusations.

[Ijustwannateach]

My experience in a case like this is that everybody at school talks about it, but nobody does anything about it. later I ound out that my director did something and also had sevral talks with this Thai teacher. However, as there was not much proof he wouldn't take action as he was afraid he would be sued for making false accusations.

Only when I reported it to the MOE did they wanted to start a real investigation.

Everybody wants to save face, including the school. The student isn't important in this. It is good to see some stories where schools do take on their responsibility.

It's not just a matter of saving face, as you note in your own post, but also a potential legal entanglement. Teachers aren't supposed to be in the position of policing other teachers, and to do so exposes us (and rightly so) to great professional and personal liability and risk. While it is completely justifiable- assuming you were right and there was a definite problem- for you to step in in this fashion, you risk your job, your assets, (and many things which depend on them, for example the future of your own children). The students are important, but the system is too dysfunctional to protect them, and those who could modify the system- the THAIS in other words- do not do so. It is very admirable that you took a personal risk to bring attention to a problem situation, but how wise? And to what cost to you (and the students who would benefit from your presence) later?

I don't have the answers to these questions, and I feel fortunate that I have not yet been in a situation where I personally had to face a real example of these issues.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ijustwannateach - At the University I previously worked at, I was encouraged to have the mobile numbers of the students, just in case they were absent or failed to attend for a test.

I understand, and I also know that it is very common for Thai teachers to have their students phone numbers (and vice-versa). I'm just saying, out of self-protection- it's better for foreign teachers not to have them. There's definitely a double-standard in operation, if not among Thais than among foreigners- and best to protect yourself.

As a parent, i would not allow my kids to give their numbers to their teatchers. There is absolutely no reason that justifies teachers contacting students out of school premises. What you should have is the number of the parents so you can contact them if there is any issues with the student.

Then again it is different issue in uni's where the students are over 18 years of age and considered adults. But then again i do not see why you would need to contact them outside school hours.

'Then again...' There is the devil, MJo. I imagine you are beginning to see the greyness of the situation. It's a case by case senario and a one size fits all solution is not advisable given that Thailand wants it's students to be entertained with a bit of education thrown in for good measure. A large amount of that entertaiment element comes from building strong relationships with the students which can transcend study periods. I'm not an advocate of romance between students and teachers but when we are talking about young adults, this is bound to occur in any area of social intercourse. Indeed, In Japan it is considered highly desireable both for the parents/students and the school.

I'm afraid I have to dispute your claim about Japan, never having seen it borne out in practice and not having heard such things from the teachers there. Not to say they don't happen, but they're certainly not considered desirable. Unless you are able to back up this wild claim with some form of factual link or news story, I do not want to see further claims of this type made on this site, or any further discussion of the matter on this thread.

In my opinion, no grey area. It is simply not acceptable for any romance to develop between those who are put in the authority of teachers and the teachers themselves, no matter what the age. If there is a risk, the teacher is the one responsible for making sure boundaries are maintained. It would be better for him/her to quit an individual class or job rather than taken any risks of this kind. To suggest otherwise is to say the teacher is not in control of him/herself; a teacher who is not in control should not be teaching. If a teacher is paying attention to keeping his life outside class in order, he will have other human resources to draw on in times of emotional neediness than his students (which is usually inappropriate).

It *is* considered desirable in an Asian context (including Japan) for there to be strong relationships between students and teachers, but these are emphatically not romantic ones.

[Ijustwannateach]

^You should probably ask your children first, though! It is something that MOST teachers I know fear- that the students will somehow acquire a teacher's phone number and use it to harrass us (asking for extra help, prank calls, etc.). Sometimes because of the Thai teacher or staff's lack of understanding of the ethical issues, they will give a student our phone numbers without our knowledge or permission, though as they have seen our reactions to these incidents it has become less of a problem. Sometimes a list will be left somewhere and a student will find it. There will always be events of this sort.

I think your user name says it all and sorry to say that will never be the case in Thailand. The position of teacher involves so much more than just rocking up to class, teaching and going home - job done! As you have noticed yourself, the Thai teachers glady hand out your phone number. If this was fround upon then they wouldn't be so casual with your personal data. I think that states a lot of what Thais think about students possesing teachers' telephone numbers. The best we can do is cover ourselves but that is an uphill struggle when a dispute occurs - you know who ends up the fall guy

I hardly consider my job as being limited to daylight hours and don't believe I have said anything in this thread which supports that- are you implying that the only way to do classroom management is with students' phone numbers? An odd claim at best.

[Mario2008]

It's not just a matter of saving face, as you note in your own post, but also a potential legal entanglement. Teachers aren't supposed to be in the position of policing other teachers, and to do so exposes us (and rightly so) to great professional and personal liability and risk. While it is completely justifiable- assuming you were right and there was a definite problem- for you to step in in this fashion, you risk your job, your assets, (and many things which depend on them, for example the future of your own children). The students are important, but the system is too dysfunctional to protect them, and those who could modify the system- the THAIS in other words- do not do so. It is very admirable that you took a personal risk to bring attention to a problem situation, but how wise? And to what cost to you (and the students who would benefit from your presence) later?

I don't have the answers to these questions, and I feel fortunate that I have not yet been in a situation where I personally had to face a real example of these issues.

That is the benefit of being a volunteer, I don't had a career and income to consider. Just my staying at the school and permission to stay in Thailand. But I also made certain I had some evidence to back up my claims and was careful in the wording.

But yes, it is a legal problem as well. A director needs solid evidence before he can do something, otherwise he might face civil and criminal law suits. Another problem is that a director might face a transfer if a complaint is justified, for allowing the situation to happen.

I won't advise anyone to do what I did without carefully considering the risks. I'm not sure if I would do it again.

[Ijustwannateach]

Some trolling and flaming posts (and their posters) have been removed.

I would like to remind our readers and erstwhile posters that there are guidelines specific to the Teacher's Forum which limit certain kinds of posts and topics. I suggest you familiarise yourselves with them because they will apply to discussions in this subforum.

[Somtamnication]

Scott, you live in a feudal society. If your boss (who in this system is a know-it-all and you cannot advice him to the extent that you would if he were a farang) asks you to take care of it, then you are a scapegoat.

He is passing the problem over to you and if you make a mistake, you will lose.

Walking on eggshells.

I get asked from all my students (12 through to 17) for my number. I NEVER give it out. Visit a student's home? Never.

I have a case now with a Thai teacher constantly interrupting my classes touching students, slapping them or pulling their ear. This morning I am expecting the so called English Coordinator to sit in the class and monitor this guy. In other words, an admin official takes care of the local problem.

Irrespective of what your level up the totem pole is at that school, you are not Thai. You will lose. Let admin take care of this, not you. Sit in meetings along with the admin, but not alone with this guy. You might get tarred and feathered as well.

[Scott]

I am routinely asked to investigate many complaints concerning the foreign staff. I don't consider myself a scapegoat because I am not the one ultimately responsible for making a decision. All I can do is make a recommendation to the Director. The Director is quite well aware of it and decisions from the Admin are final.

In part this has to do with language issues, since the Admin is likely to not fully comprehend what is being said. The Director will talk to Thai parents, students and others.

In this case, since the MOE was informed I suggested that they seek advice as to what the ministry wanted done or any course of action they felt was necessary. By that I mean, do they want a written report, do they want some kind of direct involvement or do they simply want to be informed of any action.

[Scott]

Thanks to all who contributed. I met with the Teacher this morning and anticipate that the situation will be settled with both the Ministry and the Director this afternoon. Basically, it appears that there is someone with a vendetta against the teacher. He has some text messages threatening to get him fired/kill him/get him etc. He had talked to the police who will check the phone numbers (since he is apparently blocked when trying to call back).

In spite of the threats, he was advised to watch his behavior regarding Thai colleagues and told that for his protection as well as the protection of any students, his behavior would be monitored. He was grateful that things were in the open and that school wouldn't automatically dismiss him.

With that, I will close this topic.