No Witch-hunt On Foreign Ownership: Lands Department

[jonclark]

Now, let's look at things from a Thai perspective:

Suppose we let foreigners have the right to buy land and houses,... what do you think will happen?

I believe that inflation will occur because rich (relatively to Thais) will buy lots of land and houses because they have the means. Houses and land price will go much higher. How will the average Thai afford a house now? Sure, in time, his salary might go up, but it will take time. And, if there is inflation, cheaper Thailand will not be for very long!

What do you think?

So, aren't those laws needed to protect the average Thai citizen who does not usually have as much as foreigners?

You are right that the average Thai doesn't have as much as the average foreigner, but whenever i drive out if Bangkok and see the big housing projects under construction with prices starting for example from '7 million baht' (You know the type of housing projects - Ban Siri etc) These are way beyond the price of the average Thai i assume you are talking about.

Where are the low cost housing projects for the low income families to get the first step on the property ladder ???? Exactly there are not any because they are not profitable and the rich Thais who have already bought the land want to make a profit and are more than happy to price out the average Thai.

The argument about foreigners pricing out low income Thais is smoke and mirrors. Most of the expats here who want to buy houses are buying houses in a higher price bracket than the average thai so are not in direct compitition.

[NanLaew]

^ Good point. Successive governments have done little in providing any form of social security for the poorest (read largest) part of the population. Any easing of foreign land ownership would open up these 'hi-so' property developments to greater amounts of foreign residents and the 'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

Like Brazil, Thailand has seen an increasing divide between the poor and upper class; there's a no middle-class per se. There's the great unwashed with the odd smattering of foreigners and then there's the BMW leasing, 'ivory tower' condo-dwellers and the inhabitants of the newer, very expensive gated communities. Buggerall in between socially and that's a problem that's not unique to LOS.

[jonclark]

.....'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

Why ?? What's wrong with us????

[wackysleet]

^ Good point. Successive governments have done little in providing any form of social security for the poorest (read largest) part of the population. Any easing of foreign land ownership would open up these 'hi-so' property developments to greater amounts of foreign residents and the 'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

Like Brazil, Thailand has seen an increasing divide between the poor and upper class; there's a no middle-class per se. There's the great unwashed with the odd smattering of foreigners and then there's the BMW leasing, 'ivory tower' condo-dwellers and the inhabitants of the newer, very expensive gated communities. Buggerall in between socially and that's a problem that's not unique to LOS.

Is it not the thais that own the land and isn't it they who will set the highest price to any falang they think they can get, of course they will and everyone knows that as long as there is a good profit to be made then the working class can kiss their a-s-.

Any falang looking to buy a property, it is often in the cities where prices are always highest and the lower paid have no hope of getting on the property ladder and thats the same the world over.

Thailand has seen a growth between the haves and have nots, I suppose thats the fault of falangs as well, try changing the government for a non corrupt one or better still go look for some hens teeth.

There is a new housing project near me that was supposed to enable the less well off to get a start, guess what, a lot of the property has been purchased and rented out even though purchasers were supposed to be vetted, and by the way the only thai I want to be near is my wife.

[NanLaew]

.....'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

Why ?? What's wrong with us????

Some people, call them xenophiles, like to immerse themselves in foreign cultures and environments. Other people, call them xenophobes like to bring their cultures and environments with them whether it be Branston Pickle, towels on deckchairs, bare-chested men in public or wearing socks with sandals.

I know what I prefer.

[jonclark]

.....'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

Why ?? What's wrong with us????

Some people, call them xenophiles, like to immerse themselves in foreign cultures and environments. Other people, call them xenophobes like to bring their cultures and environments with them whether it be Branston Pickle, towels on deckchairs, bare-chested men in public or wearing socks with sandals.

I know what I prefer.

You've kinda got the two extremes there - any middle ground for the majority to sit??

[rogercw]

From a prior post in this thread I get the impression that there is a Thai law that does not allow banks in Thailand to loan money to foreigners for the purchase of a house or condo. Is this correct? If correct is there a non-bank source of loans for a condo purchase?

[wackysleet]

[quote name='NanLaew' date='2009-06-16

Some people, call them xenophiles, like to immerse themselves in foreign cultures and environments. Other people, call them xenophobes like to bring their cultures and environments with them whether it be Branston Pickle, towels on deckchairs, bare-chested men in public or wearing socks with sandals.

I know what I prefer.

And of course the Thais are not xenophobic who like to wallow in their culture, some culture when parents have no conscience about living off the immoral earnings of their children, is it thai culture to spend half the day investigating the contents of ones nose and squeezing their spots in public, thanks but no thanks, I will stick to my Branston Pickle.

[caf]

They could, if they wanted to, take my house right now. And I would get nothing.......and my wife would get nothing. But they would certainly get something: a huge amount of negative and unwanted publicity.

1. They can't take your house because you don't have one. After a thousand posts on this subject, making such comment, you're really thick !

2. If your wife is found to have act as your nominee, which is illegal, "we will ask them to transfer or sell that piece of land within 180 to 365 days." (from the BP). Learn to read ! The authority will just ask your wife to sell the house, and let sort out between the two of you how to share the money.

Sounds good but I'm not sure it would work like that. the transaction may be seen as void and thereb is no certainity that the proceeds of sale would go back to the person with the original funds ( or indeed 50% of it.

If the laws were meant to protect the farang as you suggest then the original transaction should have been blocked by the land office.

[wackysleet]

2. If your wife is found to have act as your nominee, which is illegal, "we will ask them to transfer or sell that piece of land within 180 to 365 days." (from the BP). Learn to read ! The authority will just ask your wife to sell the house, and let sort out between the two of you how to share the money.

Sounds good but I'm not sure it would work like that. the transaction may be seen as void and thereb is no certainity that the proceeds of sale would go back to the person with the original funds ( or indeed 50% of it.

If the laws were meant to protect the farang as you suggest then the original transaction should have been blocked by the land office.

This law is not new, there is a lot of talk now concerning legalities, the land office would have known about the law so why insist that the farang husband signs a release document stating that he will not in law be able to make a claim on the land/property in the event of a divorce etc; and actually allow the deal to go through.

[Thai at Heart]

Now, let's look at things from a Thai perspective:

Suppose we let foreigners have the right to buy land and houses,... what do you think will happen?

I believe that inflation will occur because rich (relatively to Thais) will buy lots of land and houses because they have the means. Houses and land price will go much higher. How will the average Thai afford a house now? Sure, in time, his salary might go up, but it will take time. And, if there is inflation, cheaper Thailand will not be for very long!

What do you think?

So, aren't those laws needed to protect the average Thai citizen who does not usually have as much as foreigners?

The bogeyman is not the foreigner. Why would foreigners want to buy up huge tracts of land at inflated price to build a single house on it? Is the country so corrupt that a logical limit of holdings for a given foreigner for personal use can be implemented? There is no shortage of land in the country for construction. If you believe that letting foreigners into buy land or houses would cause massive inflation, you don't understand the market in Thailand. Other than the absolute downtown of Bangkok or beach front in some resorts, land is plentiful and cheap in Thailand. Other than downtown Bangkok I would love to know of anyone who has bought a house in Thailand and made similar investment returns to the West.

The market for house construction and sales in Thailand is probably more similar to a ponzi since the way to make money is to pick the market start construction at the start of the upturn and get out first because in a years time another moobhan will spring up right next door because there is no land usage control.

It makes for great newspapers, but if you investigate who owns the land in the country, if I remember 85% of it is in the hands of about 15% of the population, which rather closely mimics the wealth distribution of the country, which also closely represents the ethnic distribution of wealth in the country. The Thai population has already been hoodwinked and the bogeyman is posed as the white colonist.

It is not that they want to keep foreigners out of owning it. The top 15% want to keep anyone else out of owning it.

[Ga-gai]

I think Trogers is right (earlier post): "...the issue will be like a Sword of Damocles hanging over our heads." (my changes)

.

.

Ha-ha... I like that one!

For the ones that doesn't know about Damocles, you can find it in Wikipedia:

Sword of Damocles

[jonclark]

Now, let's look at things from a Thai perspective:

Suppose we let foreigners have the right to buy land and houses,... what do you think will happen?

I believe that inflation will occur because rich (relatively to Thais) will buy lots of land and houses because they have the means. Houses and land price will go much higher. How will the average Thai afford a house now? Sure, in time, his salary might go up, but it will take time. And, if there is inflation, cheaper Thailand will not be for very long!

What do you think?

So, aren't those laws needed to protect the average Thai citizen who does not usually have as much as foreigners?

It is not that they want to keep foreigners out of owning it. The top 15% want to keep anyone else out of owning it.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head with that statement

[wackysleet]

Further to my post No 40, surely having complied with the rules laid down at the land office and certainly in my case having to sign a waiver form and the paper work finished with my wife now the legal owner as far as the land office is concerned does that not make them guilty of complicity in an illegal act.

If the government recently brought in this law {I think it's been in a long time} how can they enforce it in retrospection, I am sure that we have some legal eagles on thaivisa or at worse a few barrack room lawyers here.

[Langsuan Man]

Why would any expat want to own land? You can lease it for 99 years and place a house on it. I'll doubt there are many (or any) of us here that will get any older than [current age] + 99 years. What happens after we're gone out of the cremation chimney, is not of any concern by then.

Let's quash this myth right here and now

YOU CANNOT HAVE A 99 YEAR LEASE

The longest lease that the Thai courts will enforce is 30 years and if you think any different you are going to be surprised

If there were LEGAL 99 year leases we would not be having this discussion if the first place

[MaiChai]

.'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

I think all 'middle class' people of different cultures have the same aims and interests. I mean middle class people are sort of intellectual, like to read books, have interests outside of soap operas, mentor their kids with education, have interests like golf, etc. I does not matter if you are farang or Thai; the personal aims are the same. This is just more Thai xenopobia, having a very narrow minded view of the world and looking down on others as inferior. We don't want you here even though there are loads of 'hi-so' Thais in my home country and we accept them as equals. Why are Thais like this? Why don't they like us? Only the poor ones like us for our money?

Edited June 16, 2009 by MaiChai

[wackysleet]

.'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

I think all 'middle class' people of different cultures have the same aims and interests. I mean middle class people are sort of intellectual, like to read books, have interests outside of soap operas, mentor their kids with education, have interests like golf, etc. I does not matter if you are farang or Thai; the personal aims are the same. This is just more Thai xenopobia, having a very narrow minded view of the world and looking down on others as inferior. We don't want you here even though there are loads of 'hi-so' Thais in my home country and we accept them as equals. Why are Thais like this? Why don't they like us? Only the poor ones like us for our money?

MaiChai, {long time since we spoke} just because people have money does not necessarily make them middle class , perhaps having the same aspirations as true middle class, class is not defined as having money, I know lots of thais here that live in large houses who are making a good living one way or another and are as thick as two short planks, and certainly would not fit in with certain HI-SOs.

[MaiChai]

I live in North Bangkok in the suburbs. I live in what I would call middle/upper class area and all my neighbours are middle class. From what I see we all have similar aspirations and might be more similar than we would guess

Its different in the countryside where folks are less educated, although you do have your middle class government workers/doctors/lawyers/teachers/etc; these folks don't generally socialize with the low educated farmers, although they make marayat (showing respect and politeness) when it comes to local functions like wedding/funerals, etc.

I am now renting having lost a house here through folks corrupting legal proceedings. You cannot trust the legal system to protect you. I would not buy another house here unless I could put it in my name. Guess I learn't my lesson the hard way. I hope others can learn from my experience and not make the same mistake. I would advise keep your money in home country, rent here and make investments in your home country where you have citizen rights.

Its not all bad news; you can still have alot of fun living here

Edited June 16, 2009 by MaiChai

[Oberkommando]

Why buy in such a xenophobic country that has laws specifically preventing you from doing so?

Rent, or move to a place where you are legally allowed to own land if it bothers you so much.

It's quite clear they don't want us here permanently nor owning land and property so why the fuss? Comply with their wishes and invest or live elsewhere if you really have to own and live in your own home.

You'd have to be quite mad to buy here anyway with all the pitfalls and horror stories IMO.

The worst is yet to come here, mark my words.

[wackysleet]

Why buy in such a xenophobic country that has laws specifically preventing you from doing so?

Rent, or move to a place where you are legally allowed to own land if it bothers you so much.

It's quite clear they don't want us here permanently nor owning land and property so why the fuss? Comply with their wishes and invest or live elsewhere if you really have to own and live in your own home.

You'd have to be quite mad to buy here anyway with all the pitfalls and horror stories IMO.

The worst is yet to come here, mark my words.

In actual fact I have no desire to own land in this country where I am not welcome, I purchased land through my wife like so many here to give security to her and my two children, they are my only concern, I have never seen Thailand through rose coloured specs like some who bitch about the place and in the next breath say what a wonderful country it is and such wonderful people.

[Thai at Heart]

.'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

I think all 'middle class' people of different cultures have the same aims and interests. I mean middle class people are sort of intellectual, like to read books, have interests outside of soap operas, mentor their kids with education, have interests like golf, etc. I does not matter if you are farang or Thai; the personal aims are the same. This is just more Thai xenopobia, having a very narrow minded view of the world and looking down on others as inferior. We don't want you here even though there are loads of 'hi-so' Thais in my home country and we accept them as equals. Why are Thais like this? Why don't they like us? Only the poor ones like us for our money?

The middle class is such a recent thing in this country, they can't even work out how they are supposed to relate to foreigners, let alone their next door neighbours.

I work with many of them, and they are a very professionally confident, socially unsure, insecure bunch, often educated overseas on the back of daddy's wealth (often land sold to fund the education) and now they are simply employees, earning a good living but living a very different life from their parents.

I have been to so many supposedly educated Thai middle classes houses and they tell me there are farangs living in the compound. When I ask, what do they do? They have absolutely no idea. When I ask what their neighbours do, they have no idea either. That is middle class Bangkok living in moobhans. Very little community feeling which is a major break with Thai culture. This is a partly Thai phenomenon of them living in moobhans with no connection even to their neighbours since the house is maybe only 5 years old, but I find it phenomenal that with their supposed social and business skills that they can't even say "Hello" or "Sawasdee Krup" to their neighbour.

I have had a Thai neighbour for donkeys years, and despite me waiing and my missus saying hi, the only meaningful conversation that we have ever had was when her husband tried to get me to deposit 5mn baht in the bank in which they worked. Thai culture has filled so much nonsense into people's heads about farangs, that even when good people live next door to them, they still can't see it.

[wackysleet]

name= thai at heart,

The middle class is such a recent thing in this country, they can't even work out how they are supposed to relate to foreigners, let alone their next door neighbours.

I work with many of them, and they are a very professionally confident, socially unsure, insecure bunch, often educated overseas on the back of daddy's wealth (often land sold to fund the education) and now they are simply employees, earning a good living but living a very different life from their parents.

I have been to so many supposedly educated Thai middle classes houses and they tell me there are farangs living in the compound. When I ask, what do they do? They have absolutely no idea. When I ask what their neighbours do, they have no idea either. That is middle class Bangkok living in moobhans. Very little community feeling which is a major break with Thai culture. This is a partly Thai phenomenon of them living in moobhans with no connection even to their neighbours since the house is maybe only 5 years old, but I find it phenomenal that with their supposed social and business skills that they can't even say "Hello" or "Sawasdee Krup" to their neighbour.

I have had a Thai neighbour for donkeys years, and despite me waiing and my missus saying hi, the only meaningful conversation that we have ever had was when her husband tried to get me to deposit 5mn baht in the bank in which they worked. Thai culture has filled so much nonsense into people's heads about farangs, that even when good people live next door to them, they still can't see it.

Your right, we've lived in this new village since it was built, about 3yrs ago and even though my 8yr old daughter has all the children around to our house most days after school with very few exceptions I am not even acknowledged by most of the parents, finding this strange I thought that with their way of thinking it could have been 1, either we appear to be better off than them or 2, perhaps it's because I'm the only falang, I have tried to instigate a conversation but get very little response.

[Thai at Heart]

Your right, we've lived in this new village since it was built, about 3yrs ago and even though my 8yr old daughter has all the children around to our house most days after school with very few exceptions I am not even acknowledged by most of the parents, finding this strange I thought that with their way of thinking it could have been 1, either we appear to be better off than them or 2, perhaps it's because I'm the only falang, I have tried to instigate a conversation but get very little response.

I wouldn't get too stressed about it. It is one of the wonders of Thai culture and I treat it as their loss not mine. I don't quite understand it yet either and I have been here for 20 years. I could say cynically that it is their way of putting themselves above me, but I would rather put it down to them not being confident enough to step outside their set boundaries of family, company acquaintances, family friends, connections, and last but not least neighbours. Rice farmers who have lived together in the same village for 20 years don't even trust each other here to lend each other a cup of seed.

Modern Thai culture in terms of modern moobhan living is a very recent creation. 50 years ago, your house was probably knee deep in the padi fields and the nearest village was 5 km away. I find it rather amusing that they adopted the word "moobhan" for housing estate as though it was supposed to imbibe some immediate feeling of community, and then everyone put bars on their windows and an automatic gate to feel secure.

[wackysleet]

[quote name='Thai at Heart' date='2009-0

I wouldn't get too stressed about it. It is one of the wonders of Thai culture and I treat it as their loss not mine. I don't quite understand it yet either and I have been here for 20 years. I could say cynically that it is their way of putting themselves above me, but I would rather put it down to them not being confident enough to step outside their set boundaries of family, company acquaintances, family friends, connections, and last but not least neighbours. Rice farmers who have lived together in the same village for 20 years don't even trust each other here to lend each other a cup of seed.

Modern Thai culture in terms of modern moobhan living is a very recent creation. 50 years ago, your house was probably knee deep in the padi fields and the nearest village was 5 km away. I find it rather amusing that they adopted the word "moobhan" for housing estate as though it was supposed to imbibe some immediate feeling of community, and then everyone put bars on their windows and an automatic gate to feel secure.

I've been here for 20yrs and no I don't get stressed about it and they can think if they want to that there above me but if they follow their own culture then I am better educated and far richer than them.

[farangmal]

.'hi-so' certainly don't want foreigners living in their midst. I know I don't!

I think all 'middle class' people of different cultures have the same aims and interests. I mean middle class people are sort of intellectual, like to read books, have interests outside of soap operas, mentor their kids with education, have interests like golf, etc. I does not matter if you are farang or Thai; the personal aims are the same. This is just more Thai xenopobia, having a very narrow minded view of the world and looking down on others as inferior. We don't want you here even though there are loads of 'hi-so' Thais in my home country and we accept them as equals. Why are Thais like this? Why don't they like us? Only the poor ones like us for our money?

It's a 12 letter word...starts with b and ends with g. When your head gets washed inside...Got it!

[baht&sold]

It becomes almost embarrassing to 'have' to post here but the reality is there is NO 'witch-hunt' (sorry to bring this back on topic btw;)

-Mr Anuwat was appointed Land Dept Chief by Mr Thaksin's brother-in-law's Govt last October. Previously he was Governor of Phang Nga province which is famous for land encroachment and dodgy titles arranged for politicians by high-ranking officials... He was then transferred to govern Samut Prakan province (odd transfer, some say to get away from the 'heat') and then was 'awarded' the Land Chief post by the Somchai govt.

As many Thaksin-friendly appointees are being transferred to inactive desks (but not soon enough;) one wonders if Mr Anuwat could be heading for a similar post as well?

As stated last week, it's highly unlikely the present Govt had any prior knowledge or holds present approval of Mr Anuwat's first shock announcement. However, one suspects PM Abhisit 'may' have had a word with Mr Anuwat since... (in between reading many scathing letters on the issue in the Nation and Bkk Post...)

It remains extremely unlikely the present Govt will allow any such 'witch-hunt', full-stop. Further, the present Govt is likely fully aware what a damaging message any revocation of property held by spouses of foreigners would send (not withstanding the suspicions of complicity by the previous Thaksin-backed appointed land dept's implied role if retro-actively seeking overturn of their previous implicit approval;)

Well, at least this is probably clear for the Dems, but Newin's former friends of Thaksin faction are more interested in courting popularity with NE farmers. Nevermind in reality Newin's 'gang' want to rush through rice bids which will allegedly enrich cronies & middlemen (not farmers;) and they're holding up the Democrat proposal to make land available for the poor unless Newin's gang get their 'magic' buses...

Thus, as with previous Thaksin-backed Govts and presently with Newin's faction, one doesn't expect too much headway regarding easing restrictions on foreign ownership.

There is 'faint' hope though. Both Finance Minister Korn and PM Abhisit are held in high regard by the Joint Foreign Chambers and there is said to be very good rapport. Combine this with the new 'property committee' now formed by the Foreign Chambers and one expects they will receive a FAR better hearing than with most recent Govt's.

The tricky part for the Dems will be dodging accusations by Mr Thaksin's Puea Thai party who would likely capitalise on the opportunity to try and appear as 'defenders of the realm' by creating a hue and cry over foreign ownership of THAI land... (after consultation with Mr Thaksin at one of his many overseas properties;) Then the Dems would still have to get any changes on foreign ownership restrictions through Newin's snakes n ladders faction...

At the least, here's hoping an increase in leasehold terms is possible along with an increase on foreign ownership quotas for condominiums. Meanwhile, kudos to the Joint Foreign Chambers of Commerce in Thailand for forming the property committee. Progress will not come overnight of course but still this is welcome news and one wishes the larger effort eventual success.

-----------

PS: for more regarding the Shinawatra clan's probable feelings towards foreigners see:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...eign-architects

"The council last month sent a reply to Thai architect Veeraphan Shinawatra, who sent a letter of complaint, dated April 25, 2009, asking about its policy on preventing foreign architects and firms from taking local jobs"...

(this would be the same 'helpful' Veeraphan Shinawatra who consulted on the land zoning and development 'scheme' around Suvarnabhumi Airport pre 2005)

Edited June 16, 2009 by baht&sold

[delmersomsri]

Why would any expat want to own land? You can lease it for 99 years and place a house on it. I'll doubt there are many (or any) of us here that will get any older than [current age] + 99 years. What happens after we're gone out of the cremation chimney, is not of any concern by then.

No I do not want to own the land. I sure can't leave the country with it. I do want my Thai wife to own it and her relatives to inherit it upon ours deaths. Why should I build on someone else's land other than my wife's or her family's. I'd be insane to do so! I dislike Condos very much as it's just a glorified name for apartment living. Too close quarters for me. I like to plant trees, flowers, and shrubs, and do with the property within legal limits of the law as I wish. For those who don't want this freedom or responsibility, then by all means buy a condo. The Thai people and government should embrace the inflow of currency and not throttle it. Who should care where the money comes from except maby the tax office. Remove the fears and threats so that the real estate transactions here can be more transparent. Everyone will benefit.

[rippedoff]

When are we going to learn ? We are still and always will get RIPPEDOFF

[farangmal]

When are we going to learn ? We are still and always will get RIPPEDOFF

We will learn when we start thinking and that aint going to happen as long as an 18 year old can sit at the back of Her fat old Husbands motorbike and tell Tirac how much She loves Him.

[DaleBlue]

What about Farang women buying the house for the Thai hubby?