Who's A Dirty Old Man?

[IanForbes]

I see the term... "Dirty old man" used time and again. I'm wondering if those that use the term are referring to the number of times a man bathes in a day? Or, are they referring to sex? If it is sex then I wonder at what point a man changes from being a "Stud" to being a dirty old man? Is a single man supposed to give up sex at some arbitrary age set by the puritanical bigots? And, if so, at what age does that happen to be: 40, 50, 60 or over 70?

Or, does it mean that there should be some arbitrary age difference between the man and the woman? If that is the case then I wonder what man would choose someone old, fat and ugly rather than someone young and beautiful who actually ENJOYS sex. Having seen some wives, and husbands for that matter, I can understand why some people give up sex entirely after they've been married for 20 years or more.

Maybe this is the group that is setting the standards. It would certainly seem so.

[alant]

seems they have not heard of beaujolais

[samuibeachcomber]

when an older western women says it about older men especially in thailand i take it for what it is...........jealousy.

when a younger westernman or western women says it about older men in general i take it as begrudging admiration eg"how do they do it"

either way its a tag to be admired,if you are an older man,especially in thailand.and remember the one sthey leave behind in their own country already have the carpet slippers out reading the daily rag,and for many that is the highlight of their day.

[sk1max]

I see the term... "Dirty old man" used time and again. I'm wondering if those that use the term are referring to the number of times a man bathes in a day? Or, are they referring to sex? If it is sex then I wonder at what point a man changes from being a "Stud" to being a dirty old man? Is a single man supposed to give up sex at some arbitrary age set by the puritanical bigots? And, if so, at what age does that happen to be: 40, 50, 60 or over 70?

Or, does it mean that there should be some arbitrary age difference between the man and the woman? If that is the case then I wonder what man would choose someone old, fat and ugly rather than someone young and beautiful who actually ENJOYS sex. Having seen some wives, and husbands for that matter, I can understand why some people give up sex entirely after they've been married for 20 years or more.

Maybe this is the group that is setting the standards. It would certainly seem so.

Why would anyone care? Unless they see themselves as a Dirty Old man? Do you own a raincoat?

[eek]

Woah, this is one strong post. I will give you a general view. I'll probably get burnt replying to it. But anyway...

"Dirty old man" is a term which to me does refer to sex, but in terms of an older man going after/making suggestions/being a bit pervy etc to woman much younger than him.

A young man (late teens, 20's, i suppose..?) is sort of expected to have a few girlfriends, play around a bit. After which...mid 30's?...is sort of expected that he will want to "settle down", make a commitment, ties, a family, etc. (Then afterwards comes the middle age itch..lol. ). When a man gets to say 60's plus-ish, i guess its generally expected that he will be more of a grandfather figure, someone reliable, less inclined to want a lot of different woman/sexual encounters in his life.

I think no one expects men or woman to not like sex in their later years. Certainly i dont know who would expect a man (or woman) to give up sex.

If a man is in his 60s plus and single, again, no one would expect him to give up sex But yes, the term "Dirty old man" probably would be used if he were going out with women (note i say women, not a woman) much younger than him. A man that age who gets a much younger woman as a new long term exclusive partner, will still raise eyebrows (in general) but a man who has multiple relationships with much younger women may get the "dirty old man" label. If he were dating a woman 10-20 years younger then again, not likely to raise an eyebrow so much.

---

Ok..now for some points you made.

"If that is the case then I wonder what man would choose someone old, fat and ugly rather than someone young and beautiful who actually ENJOYS sex." So, are you saying that woman of equivalent years to you are all old, fat and ugly who do not enjoy sex? Im sorry Ian, but that sentence is quite offensive. At the same turn, taking another perspective on your own words, why then would a young beautiful woman who enjoys sex want to be with an old man?

"Having seen some wives, and husbands for that matter, I can understand why some people give up sex entirely after they've been married for 20 years or more." I think that is quite judgemental of you, and sounds quite bitter. Really dont think its anyones business what married couples do or dont do. Its their choice. Just because they may not look attractive to you doesnt mean they dont still have a healthy loving sexual relationship. From your post im guessing you are annoyed at those who judge/pre-judge, yet by saying some of the things you have said here, you are doing exactly the same thing yourself.

To top things off, you post a photo of women during the suffragettes period. Actually, i think many of these woman were forced to take a stand for their quality of life during that period. Dont really see the need for that, unless you are suggesting that women are the ones who are labeling you and we are the ones not giving you any respect or whatever.

Kinda lost tbh. But I answered as honestly as i could..in general terms.

[Maejo Man]

At your age Ian I would stick to fishing....It's a lot safer

[eek]

when an older western women says it about older men especially in thailand i take it for what it is...........jealousy.

when a younger westernman or western women says it about older men in general i take it as begrudging admiration eg"how do they do it"

either way its a tag to be admired,if you are an older man,especially in thailand.and remember the one sthey leave behind in their own country already have the carpet slippers out reading the daily rag,and for many that is the highlight of their day.

Well..im of the "up to you" mentality. But to be honest I think its got absolutely nothing to do with jealousy or admiration. Its a bit ikky thats all. Seeing a much older man pawing a young sexy woman or a much older woman pawing a young sexy man just is a bit People should do what they want, but if they want to broadcast to all and sundry either vocally or by body language then it may bring out some reactions. Just like most prefer not to see a big sweaty shirtless guy sit next to them whilst eating their lunch, or have someone talk to you with a mouthful of food, or a finger rammed up their nose. We all live together and some tolerance is expected, at the same time its nice if others have consideration for society too.

[caf]

Woah, this is one strong post. I will give you a general view. I'll probably get burnt replying to it. But anyway...

"Dirty old man" is a term which to me does refer to sex, but in terms of an older man going after/making suggestions/being a bit pervy etc to woman much younger than him.

A young man (late teens, 20's, i suppose..?) is sort of expected to have a few girlfriends, play around a bit. After which...mid 30's?...is sort of expected that he will want to "settle down", make a commitment, ties, a family, etc. (Then afterwards comes the middle age itch..lol. ). When a man gets to say 60's plus-ish, i guess its generally expected that he will be more of a grandfather figure, someone reliable, less inclined to want a lot of different woman/sexual encounters in his life.

I think no one expects men or woman to not like sex in their later years. Certainly i dont know who would expect a man (or woman) to give up sex.

If a man is in his 60s plus and single, again, no one would expect him to give up sex But yes, the term "Dirty old man" probably would be used if he were going out with women (note i say women, not a woman) much younger than him. A man that age who gets a much younger woman as a new long term exclusive partner, will still raise eyebrows (in general) but a man who has multiple relationships with much younger women may get the "dirty old man" label. If he were dating a woman 10-20 years younger then again, not likely to raise an eyebrow so much.

---

Ok..now for some points you made.

"If that is the case then I wonder what man would choose someone old, fat and ugly rather than someone young and beautiful who actually ENJOYS sex." So, are you saying that woman of equivalent years to you are all old, fat and ugly who do not enjoy sex? Im sorry Ian, but that sentence is quite offensive. At the same turn, taking another perspective on your own words, why then would a young beautiful woman who enjoys sex want to be with an old man?

"Having seen some wives, and husbands for that matter, I can understand why some people give up sex entirely after they've been married for 20 years or more." I think that is quite judgemental of you, and sounds quite bitter. Really dont think its anyones business what married couples do or dont do. Its their choice. Just because they may not look attractive to you doesnt mean they dont still have a healthy loving sexual relationship. From your post im guessing you are annoyed at those who judge/pre-judge, yet by saying some of the things you have said here, you are doing exactly the same thing yourself.

To top things off, you post a photo of women during the suffragettes period. Actually, i think many of these woman were forced to take a stand for their quality of life during that period. Dont really see the need for that, unless you are suggesting that women are the ones who are labeling you and we are the ones not giving you any respect or whatever.

Kinda lost tbh. But I answered as honestly as i could..in general terms.

As Neverdie says - he is one of the most amusing plonkers on thaivisa

I would have used the words self-centred bigot. Some of his posts are sensible though. He just has an attitude problem as his post on this thread shows. As you say he is very judgmental and his posts sometimes - but not always - come across as offensive. He is very pro-Thai and can see only his own side of any argument. But sometimes he makes sensible posts

[LeungKen]

Perhaps the title be handed to certain politicians :-

but not this man ........:-

[orang37]

... snip ... At the same turn, taking another perspective on your own words, why then would a young beautiful woman who enjoys sex want to be with an old man?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Eek,

Well ... perhaps ... for certain young women, at certain times, putting out for grandad makes common $ense, you know, like in ka-ching, ka-ching. Like in momma's sick, ka-ching, ka-ching; like in papa done spent all de money, ka-ching, ka-ching; like in don't want to work 72 hours per week in an un-airconned factory to make subsistence wages, ka-ching, ka-ching. Like in momma and poppa done sold me into it, ka-clunk, ka-clunk.

best, ~o:37;

[ThaiPauly]

^ Ahhh you have unearthed the "Origanal" Dirty Old Man.

Noneother than Wilfred Bramble who played Albert Steptoe in the 60's British comedy programme Steptoe and Son

Well done Sir !!

"Harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooooooooooooooooooold"

[LeungKen]

^ Ahhh you have unearthed the "Origanal" Dirty Old Man.

Noneother than Wilfred Bramble who played Albert Steptoe in the 60's British comedy programme Steptoe and Son

Well done Sir !!

"Harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooooooooooooooooooold"

My Pleasure T.P...........

(He was also Paul's Grandad.)

[orang37]

I see the term... "Dirty old man" used time and again.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Ian,

Are you off your game, then, with the fresh salmon, and seeing writing in the mirror again ?

I've heard the phrase used in many ways : as an insult, as a description of behavior, as a comment on somebody you see where it seems there's a real age mis-match between an older man and a very young woman. When I was growing up, in Florida, it was used to mean a "nasty" old man; you know, the old guy who flashes women in the park typically dressed in a raincoat and nothing else; or, some old guy really into porn. It definitely meant someone "despicable." But that time period (the 1950's and early 1960's) was before our cultural revolutions and counter-revolutions, before "political correctness."

In those times ... where I came from ... it was slightly scandolous for Jerry Lee Lewis to marry his 14 or fifteen year old cousin, but it wasn't "illegal." There was a phrase "robbing the cradle" used in my high school, mainly by freshmen and sophomores who were nerds or geeks (like me), and who watched the loveliest of our female peers dating seniors and sneering at us wimps.

I'm wondering if those that use the term are referring to the number of times a man bathes in a day? Or, are they referring to sex? If it is sex then I wonder at what point a man changes from being a "Stud" to being a dirty old man? Is a single man supposed to give up sex at some arbitrary age set by the puritanical bigots? And, if so, at what age does that happen to be: 40, 50, 60 or over 70?

I think you already have the answer to this in your own writing.

Or, does it mean that there should be some arbitrary age difference between the man and the woman? If that is the case then I wonder what man would choose someone old, fat and ugly rather than someone young and beautiful who actually ENJOYS sex. Having seen some wives, and husbands for that matter, I can understand why some people give up sex entirely after they've been married for 20 years or more.

On this one I suggest you consider that a decline in the frequency of sex ... with age ... may not be correlated with a decline in the quality of intimacy and love in the relationship, or a symptom of something wrong or boredom. I also suggest you consider your own vast experience with wildlife (and I assume domestic animals, and dogs, and cats) and think about whether hormone levels fluctuate with a biological rhythm related to age, and related to events like birth and "domestication."

Maybe this is the group that is setting the standards. It would certainly seem so.

The standards are partially in your head, but I ask you to consider there may be an almost evolutionarily biological reason for a couple consisting of a very older male and a very younger woman to draw attention, particularly to draw attention to those who, for whatever reason, feel incomplete, not allowed to compete fairly, in the great dance of love.

I once watched the great elephant seals fighting for dominance on a beach in California. There had to be, their nature demanded, a clear winner, an alpha-male who would jealously guard his vast harem at the expense of any action for a whole bunch of sleek ready-to-go younger males.

"How," I asked myself, "do the younger males feel ?" Note my anthropo-centric assumption that seals "feel" in ways analogous to how humans feel.

I can tell you how an Orang feels (we are prehaps the least hormonally driven of all primates, we are solitaries by nature) : we feel sex is good when we have it, and there is no concept at all, in Orang thought, of "what others think."

best, ~o:37;

p.s. how about using ThaiVisa's built-in thumbnail maker so when you post photographs they are reduced in size.

Edited July 22, 2009 by orang37

[imaneggspurt]

I think it originated in the 50s from the uk used by old spinster/lesbian types that didnt particuly like men of any age or personal hygene appearance,...

Edited July 22, 2009 by imaneggspurt

[threedot]

I like this definition: An adult male - usually middle-aged or elderly - who acts in a lecherous or lewd manner.

[mauGR1]

Thanks to Ian,to ask a very honest question,and thanks to eek for the gracious answer.Their point of view is not necessarily conflicting;while sex is undoubtedly good fun, arguably one of the best on earth,we can assume that it's a clever trick of the nature to secure the procreation of humankind.Looking at the numbers,the fertility span for the better sex goes from 14 to 50 at the best,while for us males goes from 14 to 70 if not more.That said,if a older man has the look and the means,i don't see any reason why he should refrain to have some fun with a younger woman.Like eek said,anyway,we are living in a society,and we all now it's harder to swim against the stream..

[villagefarang]

I don't see what the big deal is. One is free to do as one wishes, while others are free to respond as they feel. We don't, I fear, have the right to expect everyone to approve of our choices. If you seek approval, then you should stick to the party line. If you wish to flaunt your sexuality in somewhat boastful terms, then it is should not be unexpected that others may see the situation differently.

Sadly our sexual preferences often reflect on other aspects of our lives. Just look at poor MJ. For many, his talent was completely negated by what they considered inappropriate sexual behavior. I'm quite sure he felt justified in following his desires. Many in society did not agree with him, however. Were they at fault for having different beliefs? Was he wrong for not following "the rules"? I don't know the answers but I do know there are consequences for our actions. Whether we like it or not.

[orang37]

I don't see what the big deal is. One is free to do as one wishes, while others are free to respond as they feel. We don't, I fear, have the right to expect everyone to approve of our choices. If you seek approval, then you should stick to the party line. If you wish to flaunt your sexuality in somewhat boastful terms, then it is should not be unexpected that others may see the situation differently.

Sadly our sexual preferences often reflect on other aspects of our lives. Just look at poor MJ. For many, his talent was completely negated by what they considered inappropriate sexual behavior. I'm quite sure he felt justified in following his desires. Many in society did not agree with him, however. Were they at fault for having different beliefs? Was he wrong for not following "the rules"? I don't know the answers but I do know there are consequences for our actions. Whether we like it or not.

To me what you say is an expression of contemporary "moral relativism" dressed up in some nice turns of phrase.

I personally believe there is a moral issue involved : when a person uses money or power to exploit the lives of younger people (who are coerced by economic circumstances, who are relatively powerless) for their own sexual gratification ... without concern, without empathy, without making some contribution to the future evolution of their human potential, and in a way that damages their emotional development : I call that evil.

When an adult person takes advantage of the openness and ignorance of a child to exploit them sexually : I call that evil.

Yes, Orangs know evil is real, is tangible, and that it exists in every one of us. Not to recognize that is, in the immortal words of Ur-Orang : "to eat only the skin of the banana and then wonder why you are sick."

~o:37;

[sibeymai]

After which...mid 30's?...is sort of expected that he will want to "settle down", make a commitment, ties, a family, etc. (Then afterwards comes the middle age itch..lol. ). When a man gets to say 60's plus-ish, i guess its generally expected that he will be more of a grandfather figure, someone reliable, less inclined to want a lot of different woman/sexual encounters in his life.

Sorry eek, but where do you get these ideas from ?

I don't know many men who, if they are being really honest with themselves, truly desire and will want to "settle down" as you put it. This "settling down", being monogamous, always seems to me as something imposed on men demanded by women. The "middle age itch" you refer to doesn't just appear. It's the resurfacing of the desire to "sow wild oats" from a man's earlier years which was forcibly repressed during the "settle down" period (a man may suppress his "appetite" simple because it's easier to eat at home). My guess is that the sexual desire resurfaces as a response to the reduction of sex which typically happens in most marriages over time. Possibly those men who are most successful at monogamy experience less reduction of sexual intimacy in their marriage.

Now, before I get jumped on for expressing my opinion let me say that I'm stating what I believe are men's most basic instincts and motivations for behaviour. Love and cultural beliefs will take greater importance and overrule these for some males.

OK, fire away.

[villagefarang]

"some nice turns of phrase" Thank you kind sir. A writer is rewarded, when his skill is acknowledged.

[PeaceBlondie]

I was saddened to read that Willie Nelson, who wrote songs like "Here's to All the Women I Screwed" admit at his recent 75th birthday that he had outlived his dick. Willie's willie aside, I started reading this thread to Bob Seger's "The Fire Inside." http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bob+seger/fir...e_20021922.html

"....And it comes to you how it all slips away

Youth and beauty are gone one day

No matter what you dream or feel or say

It ends in dust and disarray

Like wind on the plains, sand through the glass

Waves rolling in with the tide

Dreams die hard and we watch them erode

But we cannot be denied

The fire inside."

I say, if you've still got "it" - virility, sex appeal, hair, strength - flaunt it.

[villagefarang]

After which...mid 30's?...is sort of expected that he will want to "settle down", make a commitment, ties, a family, etc. (Then afterwards comes the middle age itch..lol. ). When a man gets to say 60's plus-ish, i guess its generally expected that he will be more of a grandfather figure, someone reliable, less inclined to want a lot of different woman/sexual encounters in his life.

Sorry eek, but where do you get these ideas from ?

I don't know many men who, if they are being really honest with themselves, truly desire and will want to "settle down" as you put it. This "settling down", being monogamous, always seems to me as something imposed on men demanded by women. The "middle age itch" you refer to doesn't just appear. It's the resurfacing of the desire to "sow wild oats" from a man's earlier years which was forcibly repressed during the "settle down" period (a man may suppress his "appetite" simple because it's easier to eat at home). My guess is that the sexual desire resurfaces as a response to the reduction of sex which typically happens in most marriages over time. Possibly those men who are most successful at monogamy experience less reduction of sexual intimacy in their marriage.

Now, before I get jumped on for expressing my opinion let me say that I'm stating what I believe are men's most basic instincts and motivations for behaviour. Love and cultural beliefs will take greater importance and overrule these for some males.

OK, fire away.

And who's fault is it guys, if you give up your freedom at a young age? If you had the sense to play to your hearts content while you were at your prime and wait until, say 45, before getting married, most of these problems would not exist.

[orang37]

"some nice turns of phrase" Thank you kind sir. A writer is rewarded, when his skill is acknowledged.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Village Farang,

Mai phen rai, Khrup. Sometimes, when I hear the distorted tweeting of a lame baby bird in distress ... I feel ... merciful.

behold ! ~o:37;

[villagefarang]

"some nice turns of phrase" Thank you kind sir. A writer is rewarded, when his skill is acknowledged.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Village Farang,

Mai phen rai, Khrup. Sometimes, when I hear the distorted tweeting of a lame baby bird in distress ... I feel ... merciful.

behold ! ~o:37;

In the future I must make sure my tip is sharpened and the inkwell full before striking pens with thee. Have mercy on this poor scribe.

[Boo]

when an older western women says it about older men especially in thailand i take it for what it is...........jealousy

Jealousy at what, you or the women you date? I highly doubt it is either.

[Scrubber]

At your age Ian I would stick to fishing....It's a lot safer

Yep - get your tackle out & see what bites

[IanForbes]

With Orang's post I totally agree... I couldn't have said it better, so I won't.

Quote: "I personally believe there is a moral issue involved : when a person uses money or power to exploit the lives of younger people (who are coerced by economic circumstances, who are relatively powerless) for their own sexual gratification ... without concern, without empathy, without making some contribution to the future evolution of their human potential, and in a way that damages their emotional development : I call that evil.

When an adult person takes advantage of the openness and ignorance of a child to exploit them sexually : I call that evil."

And, I tend to agree with eek in some ways... as I usually do. I wouldn't expect a woman to view a topic like this with the same viewpoint as a man. I just posted this thread to spice up an otherwise boring day. I was supposed to go fishing but the motor in my friend's boat is in for repairs.

When I said "old fat and ugly" I was only stirring the pot a little, knowing you have to make a few provocative comments to get a discussion going. I know many loving couples who are still married after 30 or more years. I know many attactive women well into their sixties and seventies. But, I was only half kidding when I said there are a lot of unhappy marriages, even if the couples are still together. Most have given up sex and only stay together because breaking apart is more work than staying together. And, they have used up all their energy fighting. Fighting has become a way of life for them.

Yes, there truly are "dirty old men". They are the ones who make other people uncomfortable with their comments or actions in places where it's not accepted. Sometimes I fall into that category, but not often. I try not to insult people, but with the understanding that there will ALWAYS be people who are affronted by anything out of the ordinary. An old guy flirting with young women in a Thai bar is hardly a dirty old man. He's just doing what is expected of him. If he were to try the same thing in a school yard of young women and girls he WOULD be a dirty old man.

[IanForbes]

At your age Ian I would stick to fishing....It's a lot safer

Yep - get your tackle out & see what bites

I have, I do and I did. The tackle is well used and I get lots of bites. Some are even trophies, but I throw them all back these days. I am quite skilled at discerning what bait to use.

[orang37]

I am quite skilled at discerning what bait to use.

So it doth appear thou hath, verily, shewn a skilled baiting upon our fatuous organs of intellect today, good Sir Fisherman.

We have been realed in, and so kind of you to throw us back !

best, ~o:37;

[uptoyoumyfriend]

me ,me!

i'm off to loi kroh right now-see you there.