Thailand Rejects Clinton Call To Expel Burma From Asean

[zzaa09]

South Africa couldn't get rid of aparthied and free Nelson Mandella from prison until the US Congress enacted laws prohibiting US businesses operating in S Africa.

These posts about supposed US corporations in Burma are the same old sh*t from the same old slingers. Too cliched and lazy to look it up.

I might remind you that US companies get around the rules by going through second and third-party corporation. Indirectly {and not on paper}, the US is one of the largest business partners doing their thing in Burma. Corporations are numb to the ideals of belonging to a national state. They are the state. So much for doing extended research and looking it up. Mind you, I'm not critiqing the US - just bringing the illusional state some much needed light. Al the usual suspects continue to do their thin in Burma. No one is sainted.

[venturalaw]

South Africa couldn't get rid of aparthied and free Nelson Mandella from prison until the US Congress enacted laws prohibiting US businesses operating in S Africa.

These posts about supposed US corporations in Burma are the same old sh*t from the same old slingers. Too cliched and lazy to look it up.

I might remind you that US companies get around the rules by going through second and third-party corporation. Indirectly {and not on paper}, the US is one of the largest business partners doing their thing in Burma. Corporations are numb to the ideals of belonging to a national state. They are the state. So much for doing extended research and looking it up. Mind you, I'm not critiqing the US - just bringing the illusional state some much needed light. Al the usual suspects continue to do their thin in Burma. No one is sainted.

Difficult to focus on your point while staring at your avatar.

[Publicus]

We do live in the real world, yes; few are oblivious to the often ugly and obvious fact. Yet there are always those who like to remind us.

So neither Thailand in particular nor ASEAN as a whole are going to do anything to try to elicit a little humanity out of the fascist generals running Burma. There at the least could be some effort by Thailand and ASEAN to prevent the Nobel Peace Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi from rotting to death in a prison in Burma, which is on the brink of occurring any day now. ASEAN because of its intricate and intimate web of involvement and contacts in Burma could accomplish this goal were they halfway disposed.

Speaking for Prez Obama, Sec Clinton issued a provocative suggestion to the chummy club of ASEAN cronies, i.e., to expel Burma from ASEAN. In too many instances however farang, Thais and ASEAN governments have seized on the suggestion to try to shift the focus of the travesty presently occurring in Burma from their indifference (to describe it kindly) to create some sort of intrusive busy body in Sec Clinton. How inconvenient, even this minimal human rights thing!

The focus is squarely on ASEAN. Abisit clearly doesn't have it in him to try to protect and save the Nobel Laureate Suu Kyi from rotting and dying in a hellhole prison in Burma. How could Suu Kyi, under continued house instead, be a threat to the globalized money grubbers? House arrest just isn't enuff?!?

Edited July 26, 2009 by Publicus

[Groongthep]

So much for doing extended research and looking it up. Mind you, I'm not critiqing the US - just bringing the illusional state some much needed light. Al the usual suspects continue to do their thin in Burma. No one is sainted.

You have shead light on nothing. Just mindless accusations without a single reference. Without any kind of proof whatsoever your words are empty meaningless tripe.

[JRinger]

I am pleased to see the Prime Minister stand-up to Mrs. Clinton and tell her to keep her nose out of the Asean business.

He is standing up against the rest of the world that wants her freed. Simple. Don't hate the messenger

Why doesn´t mrs Clinton go home to US and tell all american companies that today have business in Burma to get out first?

They are making billions from their business in Burma and give the military dictatorship in Burma a good part of it!

U.S. business? Which ones? Are you sure? Are you sure there isn't a ban on U.S. companies doing business in Burma? Are you sure? Or do you just hate us?

I have personal knowledge that there are some American companies designing & buying goods from Burma although there seem to be more European companies doing similar business. It's true that U.S. companies are forbidden to do any kind of business with Burma as is the case with many European countries and the laws are easily circumvented through the shipping industry.

[Publicus]

Why isn't ASEAN and Thailand in particular doing anything to rescue the Nobel Peace Laureate Suu Kyi from being sent off to rot and die in a prison in Burma? Suu Kyi won an election by a landslide and wants Burma to become a 'normal' country again. The dictatorship's newly concocted trial against her is about to to conclude and send her away for life in some hellhole of a prison in Burma.

Let's hope the renewed attention brought by Sec Clinton's remarks concerning the bogus trial of Suu Kyi by the fascist dictators of Burma can yield some positive result.

Only Asean can make the difference. What are you doing in this respect, Abhisit?

[henryalleman]

I am pleased to see the Prime Minister stand-up to Mrs. Clinton and tell her to keep her nose out of the Asean business.

He is standing up against the rest of the world that wants her freed. Simple. Don't hate the messenger

Why doesn´t mrs Clinton go home to US and tell all american companies that today have business in Burma to get out first?

They are making billions from their business in Burma and give the military dictatorship in Burma a good part of it!

What businesses from the US are making billions? Please enlighten us that don't know these companies.

Its a litle bit of topic, but hereby the list of foreign companyies in Myamar, do notice quit a few US companies also, so the previous poster was correct

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/dirty_list/dirty_list.html

[henryalleman]

South Africa couldn't get rid of aparthied and free Nelson Mandella from prison until the US Congress enacted laws prohibiting US businesses operating in S Africa.

These posts about supposed US corporations in Burma are the same old sh*t from the same old slingers. Too cliched and lazy to look it up.

Typical US double standards, why they don't sanctions against China for their blatant Human right abuses and the expelling of the Dalai Lama, not yet to mention the brutal oppression of the Tibetan people. I urge all posters to keep the US out of an Human right debate, because its a rogue state by themselves concerning human rights only look to the patriot act the rendition flights and secret CIA torture jails;

Mrs Clinton who I do respect, should better keep her mouth shut.

[Datsun240Z]

I remember the VN trying to help Burma with the cyclone, almost everything was blocked by the army regime their. I bet the money came in their hands, instead to the people.

[zzaa09]

Well, Thailand apparently is gaining from Burma being like this at its current state. If Burma has become a democratic country, imagine how it would affect this region. More competition on everything to all ASEAN countries.

It's no secret {or shouldn't be} that Thailand has long been engaged with Burma. What might be more hidden are the real and underlinging and official stance that Thailand has had towards the state of Burma since the early sixties. The official line goes as what 'they' really wish for Thailand - an oligarchal controlled state. The establishment here has never seen the need to publicly {or hiddenly} pursue such democratic principles regarding Burma because they have never really found the need to instill such political institutions here as well.

[zzaa09]

I remember the VN trying to help Burma with the cyclone, almost everything was blocked by the army regime their. I bet the money came in their hands, instead to the people.

I trust you realize that Burma received hundreds of millions of $$$ through back channels from the power-that-be, regardless of the official line. They played the surface propaganda like an orchestra....and we bought into it.

[zzaa09]

Typical US double standards.

Double standards are the basic fodder that creates the US machine. The obvious example would be the the imperiastic pursuits of the US for the last 100+ years. Least you forget the countless military bases that the US has placed worldwide, not even to mention the direct or indirect hand that America has had in nearly every sorted conflict and political activity in the world for the last several decades. This is perfectly acceptable, though......

[Datsun240Z]

I remember the VN trying to help Burma with the cyclone, almost everything was blocked by the army regime their. I bet the money came in their hands, instead to the people.

I trust you realize that Burma received hundreds of millions of $$$ through back channels from the power-that-be, regardless of the official line. They played the surface propaganda like an orchestra....and we bought into it.

Yeah so sad. I can remember the goverment here launched an Giro line so people could donate money, milions went into it, without those people even realising how the situation is controlled by the army there in Burma.

[Publicus]

South Africa couldn't get rid of aparthied and free Nelson Mandella from prison until the US Congress enacted laws prohibiting US businesses operating in S Africa.

These posts about supposed US corporations in Burma are the same old sh*t from the same old slingers. Too cliched and lazy to look it up.

Typical US double standards, why they don't sanctions against China for their blatant Human right abuses and the expelling of the Dalai Lama, not yet to mention the brutal oppression of the Tibetan people. I urge all posters to keep the US out of an Human right debate, because its a rogue state by themselves concerning human rights only look to the patriot act the rendition flights and secret CIA torture jails;

Mrs Clinton who I do respect, should better keep her mouth shut.

Everyone should implement sanctions against everyone they don't like for at least one reason, whether it be human rights, or a particular religion, or the skin color of inhabitants etc etc. Sure, of course!

So let's have the US start with a war of sanctions against PRChina. Then we could cause fruther disruption of the global economy by the PRC implementing sanctions against the US and throw in Canada to boot. Yes, then PRChina can decide to further assist North Korea with its nuclear program to raise the levels of tension among N Korea, Japan, S Korea, PRChina and all the rest. Then Japan could finally get tuff by going nuclear, which it could do with only six months time and effort.

The UK could also begin sanctions against Honduras. Australia could arrest all the personnel in the PRC Embassy in Canberra. Then India could invade Pakistan to do away with that problem too. Then...

...Yes, let's start sanctioning anyone and everyone anywhere and everywhere with whom we have at least one point of disagreement. Good idea. I don't know why the US Government hasn't thought of it! Other governments too.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Publicus

[zzaa09]

So much for doing extended research and looking it up. Mind you, I'm not critiqing the US - just bringing the illusional state some much needed light. Al the usual suspects continue to do their thin in Burma. No one is sainted.

You have shead light on nothing. Just mindless accusations without a single reference. Without any kind of proof whatsoever your words are empty meaningless tripe.

I'm not your nanny nor your teacher. I find it unnecessary to provide you {or anyone} with said documentation. Do your own info gathering. You might do yourself a world of good by ceasing to imbibe surface establishment rhetoric and provide some real alternative investigations for your own peace of mind. Though, it's much easier to absorb {catatonically} what has been repeated over and again or brought to your attention time and again.....until such matter becames true and real.

[animatic]

I remember the VN trying to help Burma with the cyclone, almost everything was blocked by the army regime their. I bet the money came in their hands, instead to the people.

Having seen it first hand, and knowing people there,

I can agree with this.

Their prison is called Insein

and it couldn't be better named considering who runs it.

[Rinrada]

The reference to the Ben Line (as held by egt holdings) should be put in context. My comments were in reference to an industry segment. More importantly, the Ben Line is nominally Scottish as it is for all intents and purposes an Asian based company and managed in each region. Sort of like Triumph moving its HQ to Switzerland from Germany. The Ben Line is not under the jurisdiction of Scotland and if any rules or regulations applied they would be UK/EU. Please note too that BL hasn't been in the container shipping business since 1992 and acts exclusively as a shipping agency. The Myanmar office is small and my understanding is that all key decisions are taken in the large Bangkok office. Ben Line Agencies BLA presently has offices in China, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia. BLA is managed exclusively in Asia.

One aspect of JVs and local investment holdings is that they are subject to local management and owner interest decisions. It is therefore unfair to consider this to be a "Scottish" company.

anither JV.....hoots mon...

PSL Energy Services Ltd.

PSL Energy Services is a UK based oil and gas company which provides services to companies operating in Burma.

The gas sector is the regime's chief source of income generating over $2.7 billion in 2006.

Managing Director

PSL Energy Services Ltd.

Badentoy Avenue

Portlethan

Aberdeen AB12 4YB

On a follow up re the Ben Line...when I was an apprentice in the "Yerds" I actually worked on a couple of their ships and must admit they were top notch...absoultely sleek and pristine...only outfit to carry a painter as part of the crew.

Couple of years later I again met up with them while "tramping" along the China Coast (Bank line)and last time I had a beer on one was around 1970 while unloading in Hanoi,Vietnam.

Brit Ships were neutral but we never hung around too long in case the Yanks dropped one in the wrong place.......help ma boab....all good fun...as long.as....

Other safer hang outs at that time were Singers,Manila,Klong t Bangko and my personal fav...Keelung in Formosa (T/W)

....any re Hilary.......Keep at it lassie .......Go ......Free World is behind ye......

[Publicus]

We're getting some good corporate specifics and suggestions to this thread, info that includes identifying some of the specific companies and corporations which unconscienably aid the Burma fascist dictatorship. The info ultimately helps to support elements in Burmese society who want to introduce democracy and someday begin to work towards social justice in that hellhole.

Meantime, others try to shift the focus away from the notoriously fascist regime in Burma which continues its atrocities without end. These others instead try to exploit this thread to pursue their own always bent agenda against a country that is not Burma. Do some of those jaded people want to say or do somthing to try to stop the fascist generals?

The fascist regime in Burma plans to incarcerate the Nobel Peace Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi in some rotten prison where she can be completely isolated to finally and at long last die.

[zzaa09]

Why isn't ASEAN and Thailand in particular doing anything to rescue the Nobel Peace Laureate Suu Kyi from being sent off to rot and die in a prison in Burma?

Are you asking rhetorically? Or don't you really understand ASEAN's and Thailand's policy towards Burma?

[Publicus]

Why isn't ASEAN and Thailand in particular doing anything to rescue the Nobel Peace Laureate Suu Kyi from being sent off to rot and die in a prison in Burma?

Are you asking rhetorically? Or don't you really understand ASEAN's and Thailand's policy towards Burma?

My point is to express the hope there otherwise are invisible diplomatic activities behind the scenes by Abhisit and certain other ASEAN countries, working in concert with the US, pressuring the fascist generals in Burma in the behalf of Suu Kyi during her present "trial" in the Burmese kangaroo courts and for the people of Burma.

Your dubious question comes because you don't know me. My academic background and my professional experience in politics and government leave me under no illusions about global political economy and realities. Further, because I recently spent ten years in Thailand teaching History and Social Subjects, to include economics and globalization, you need to be aware that I am in particular familiar with the realpolitik world of Thailand and ASEAN.

The life and works of the Nobel Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi matter to me. That is my focus in this thread. I hope something is happening in her behalf and for her people and cause that is out of the public eye. Certainly nothing positive is happening publicly. As one would expect, everything public is negative, witness Abhisit's entirely predictable statements.

Sec Clinton knew and expected the predictable reaction to her statement about ASEAN. So do you and I and everyone else thank you. I'm trying to keep the matter focused on Burma instead of allowing the message to be bogusly shifted to the messenger, as some always bent people predictably are attempting to do here.

I know it's hard for some to believe, but they should give it a try.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Publicus

[zzaa09]

Why isn't ASEAN and Thailand in particular doing anything to rescue the Nobel Peace Laureate Suu Kyi from being sent off to rot and die in a prison in Burma?

Are you asking rhetorically? Or don't you really understand ASEAN's and Thailand's policy towards Burma?

My point is to express the hope there otherwise are invisible diplomatic activities behind the scenes by Abhisit and certain other ASEAN countries, working in concert with the US, pressuring the fascist generals in Burma in the behalf of Suu Kyi during her present "trial" in the Burmese kangaroo courts and for the people of Burma.

Your dubious question comes because you don't know me. My academic background and my professional experience in politics and government leave me under no illusions about global political economy and realities. Further, because I recently spent ten years in Thailand teaching History and Social Subjects, to include economics and globalization, you need to be aware that I am in particular familiar with the realpolitik world of Thailand and ASEAN.

The life and works of the Nobel Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi matter to me. That is my focus in this thread. I hope something is happening in her behalf and for her people and cause that is out of the public eye. Certainly nothing positive is happening publicly. As one would expect, everything public is negative, witness Abhisit's entirely predictable statements.

Sec Clinton knew and expected the predictable reaction to her statement about ASEAN. So do you and I and everyone else thank you. I'm trying to keep the matter focused on Burma instead of allowing the message to be bogusly shifted to the messenger, as some always bent people predictably are attempting to do here.

I know it's hard for some to believe, but they should give it a try.

Have you ever considered that such a coalition could have taken care of Burma some years ago {even decades}. They want Burma to continue the course. Not the PC rhetoric that they all spit forward, but the real official stance towards Burma. And Clinton.....? Amusing. She's about as heartfelt interested in Burma as my neighbor is. Naivte is a bit wasted.....

[Publicus]

Why isn't ASEAN and Thailand in particular doing anything to rescue the Nobel Peace Laureate Suu Kyi from being sent off to rot and die in a prison in Burma?

Are you asking rhetorically? Or don't you really understand ASEAN's and Thailand's policy towards Burma?

My point is to express the hope there otherwise are invisible diplomatic activities behind the scenes by Abhisit and certain other ASEAN countries, working in concert with the US, pressuring the fascist generals in Burma in the behalf of Suu Kyi during her present "trial" in the Burmese kangaroo courts and for the people of Burma.

Your dubious question comes because you don't know me. My academic background and my professional experience in politics and government leave me under no illusions about global political economy and realities. Further, because I recently spent ten years in Thailand teaching History and Social Subjects, to include economics and globalization, you need to be aware that I am in particular familiar with the realpolitik world of Thailand and ASEAN.

The life and works of the Nobel Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi matter to me. That is my focus in this thread. I hope something is happening in her behalf and for her people and cause that is out of the public eye. Certainly nothing positive is happening publicly. As one would expect, everything public is negative, witness Abhisit's entirely predictable statements.

Sec Clinton knew and expected the predictable reaction to her statement about ASEAN. So do you and I and everyone else thank you. I'm trying to keep the matter focused on Burma instead of allowing the message to be bogusly shifted to the messenger, as some always bent people predictably are attempting to do here.

I know it's hard for some to believe, but they should give it a try.

Have you ever considered that such a coalition could have taken care of Burma some years ago {even decades}. They want Burma to continue the course. Not the PC rhetoric that they all spit forward, but the real official stance towards Burma. And Clinton.....? Amusing. She's about as heartfelt interested in Burma as my neighbor is. Naivte is a bit wasted.....

Could we have some posts that could be considered intellectually challenging please? Intellectually respectable questions?

Could we also have some realism and practical knowlege at the level of policy making? Such for instance as the awareness and rationale as to why the US won't ever again become involved in a land war in Asia? The US twice during the post war era strayed from that military doctrine and we've seen the results. Don't expect it to happen again for any reason. The US has returned to its long-standing military doctrine of dealing with military challenges in Asia by utilizing sea and air power.

Could we get real here???

Naivete and worse is indeed pathetic.

[Plus]

There was a story of the impact of US sanctions on jewellry trade.

Some 85% of all stones from Burma are sold by small businesses, and they are the ones that are severely affected because Thailand, the world's biggest ruby trading center, can't sell the jewellry to the biggest clients anymore.

So those small traders are either going bust or selling their stones to Burmese government, which is very thankful because now it gets more business than ever.

Right now there's evaluaiton of that policy going on, with several US representatives travelling in the border areas to see the impact for themselves. Hopefully this policy is going to be reconsidered once they submit their reports.

[Alwaysright]

The Nobama talks to N.Korea and Iran but wants Burma thrown out.Obama is a fool.

[Publicus]

There was a story of the impact of US sanctions on jewellry trade.

Some 85% of all stones from Burma are sold by small businesses, and they are the ones that are severely affected because Thailand, the world's biggest ruby trading center, can't sell the jewellry to the biggest clients anymore.

So those small traders are either going bust or selling their stones to Burmese government, which is very thankful because now it gets more business than ever.

Right now there's evaluaiton of that policy going on, with several US representatives travelling in the border areas to see the impact for themselves. Hopefully this policy is going to be reconsidered once they submit their reports.

You speak of shared concerns indeed. Almost universally, evaluation and impact assessment of sanctions policies demonstrate that the 'little' people suffer most from sanctions; that sanctions never or seldom have any actual or real impact on the nasties at the top of the hierarchy who are the visible and obvious tartgets. So the population double suffers. Your particular instance is familiar and fairly typical.

So neither have I been big on sanctions. Sanctions against Iran don't bother the holies at the top or in the upper income groups, which are the protected and privileged few, but do hurt the larger population as a whole especially the working stiffs. Every time Palestine gets its aid cut off it's the mass of the poor who suffer, which consists of almost everyone who aren't the murderers at the top doing the directing.

Western govenments are the governments that almost always impose sanctions. Yet every one of them long ago became aware that in general sanctions hurt the population of any given targeted country, seldom impacting its leaders and elite classes. To ease the criticism, Western governments have become more aggressive against the leaders whose policies and behaviours provoke the sanctions, such as limiting their access to Western countries in their travels, in some cases freezing assets in Western banks etc.

However, sanctions continue to impact the ordinary people of the targeted country. So I've seldom been an advocate or much of a supporter of sanctions. Further, it's cynical to try to argue as Western leaders actually do that sanctions make it more difficult for nasty rulers to rule and to control their populations, or even that sanctions could engourage the population of a given country to revolt and depose the nasties.

Sec Clinton was doing all she and the US could do, i.e., draw attention to the fact that ASEAN owns the problem of Burma, and that ASEAN countries are hopelessly complicit in supporting the regime there. That includes and probably identifies Thailand as the number one ASEAN culprit in this regard.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

The Nobama talks to N.Korea and Iran but wants Burma thrown out.Obama is a fool.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon was in Burma earlier this month trying to initiate a dialog but got stiff armed. He wasn't able to accomplish anything. Moon left empty handed.

Thaksin once said that "The UN is not my father." In Burma the UN is not from planet earth.

At least Burma can't initiate or pursue a nuclear weapons program, which is the serious problem we have concerning N Korea and Iran.

N. Korea fed its nuclear program to Pakistan to help them realize their nuclear capability. N Korea got its nuclear program from PRChina and Russia, each of which now realizes it created a monster because N Korea now is out of anyone's control. Russia with a bunch of leftover Cold War scientists is building the big bucks nuclear facilities in Iran.

ASEAN owns the Burma problem and and owns it exclusively. ASEAN consciously, willingly and profitably are up their necks in the muck and mire that is Burma.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Amnesty International yesterday awarded the Burma political prisoner Aung San Suu Kyi its Human Rights Award for her long service to the cause of human rights, to include her ceaseless efforts over decades to seek democracy and social justice for the people of Burma.

Suu Kyi presently is defending herself (without hope of 'acquittal') in a bogus trial the fascist generals who run Burma have been staging. Suu Kyi is being persecuted by the Nazi Burmese courts as the time approaches for the disingenuiouly promised elections the generals had falsely agreed to. The trial is in its concluding stages with the expectation that Suu Kyi, who's been under house arrest for most of the past 20 years since winning a landslide election in 1991, will be sent to the infamous Ensein prison to rot and die.

Suu Kyi is a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate.

Last week, during the ASEAN Foreign Ministers meeting in Phuket, Sec of State Clinton called for ASEAN to expel Burma. Thai PM Abhisit responded, as expected, that ASEAN would do no such thing. Abhisit, ASEAN and Burma are supported by numerous farang apologists who post to the ThaiVisa Forum site as well as by some Thais who post.

The reason ASEAN will not expel Burma is that ASEAN is allied with Burma and supports the Burma regime in business deals and financial arrangements that oppress the people of Burma but make ASEAN member states and their profiteers richer than they already are, as evidenced by shameful standards of living and quality of life in almost all ASEAN member states to include their having shabbly democracies.

There also exists within ASEAN a disregard of human rights, democracy and social justice. Consequently Pres Obama and Sec Clinton know fully well ASEAN will never expel its ally and partner in crime Burma. However, it needs to be made clear that ASEAN owns the Burma problem and that nothing can be done to improve the standard of living in Burma unless its ASEAN allies and supporters agree to effect the needed and necessary changes.

[animatic]

I was in Northern Burma in January and saw whole famillies

diggin in the river bed looking for flecks of gold.

And people with big houses trying to sell us rubies and other stones to take back.

Of course you get a pat down search at the airport as you leave.

That an thousands of Chinese trucks heading north fully loaded.

We know who buttters Myanmars bread and it's China riding the backs

of the Burmese people.

[emancipationthailand]

Mixed thoughts after reading through.

1. I like Rambo 4.

2. Abhisit can do no wrongs.

3. The US's vast military interests in Thailand is the matter of conflict of interests over the Burma's talks.

4. Despite the oust of Taksin, he is the real culprit even until now with the Burma's humanitarian problems. (ขำนะครับ)

5. Lots of Burma dictators' businesses moved their ligitimate (money laundering?) operations to Kanchanaburi, as i recalled. Ex? A famous casual footware feature a Beagle. (A breed of dogs)

Edited July 28, 2009 by emancipationthailand

[Maestro]

A nonsensical post about a toxin has been deleted.

--

Maestro