Finger Scanning / Signing In

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

hi there,

I'm currently teaching at a college in the northern provinces, doing 20 hours a week 'face time' teaching and getting 25,000 Bhat. One of the great reasons for this particular job was that the administration was never overly tight about the hours spent on school grounds when not teaching. As long as you were in by 8am and signed the book, if you finished at 12 or 2 or whenever, you could pretty well leave without any worries... keep your head down, do your job well, and they don't bother you was the school's unofficial motto.

Well, there has been a new 'law' passed recently where the foreign teachers must now finger scan before 8am and after 4pm every day.

This has miffed us a little bit. We held our hands up and said "OK, our contract does say teaching hours between 8-4" so in reality we had no leg to stand on, but the finger scanning has touched a nerve on an ethical/moral (not sure which is which) level - we have argued that fingers scanning is associated with criminals back home etc... and that we would be much more comfortable signing in instead.

We await the official verdict from the boss on whether it's finger scanning or signing in for us farang.

Personally, I have a disgust for such things and I genuinely feel Orwell's presence creeping ever closer. Maybe my defiance on this small matter is a small stand against the nanny state/big brother <deleted>, or maybe it is a simple rant as I am now over a barrel and will have to fulfill my contractual hours, meaning that my hourly wage is now under 150bhat per hour and for several hours each week I shall be merely 'hanging around' waiting for 4pm so I can sign out, go home and continue living (my once) enjoyable and relaxing life.

Do other schools 'demand' finger scanning and are your school 'in and out' times rigorously enforced?

I am contemplating a move into part time teaching coupled with me opening my own firm that would teach business people TOEFL and the likes directly on their premises.... not only would it bring in more money, the added independence and extra income would help to sustain my sanity!

Good luck with you and yours!

Jim

[garro]

I was told at my original job interview that we were allowed to go home once our teaching was done for the day. Last year year there was a lot of complaining and jealousy from the Thai teachers about this. They didn't change the rule but instead just made sure that we always had a class for the last period. Cheeky feekers .

We also have one of those scanning devices, but like a lot of things in our school it doesn't work and just serves as decoration. At least at the moment anyway.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

haha... that sounds classic - all about the looks and not the function :-)

If we decided not to sign in using the system, I doubt anything would be said, but when it would come round to contract renewal time... bye bye!

choke dee!

[Scott]

We use the sign in method, but during the day day the gates are locked and you need a written note to get out.

[garro]

We use the sign in method, but during the day day the gates are locked and you need a written note to get out.

:D

I have this image of all the teachers in your school forging notes so as they can get out of school.

[Scott]

No, the teachers don't have to forge notes. I am the one that signs them, and I am pretty much a push over.

I am always astounded at how foolish admin can be about keeping track of people. We were once told we couldn't park inside the school grounds (we have a parking lot). After about a week I told them everybody was really happy about parking outside because if they went out the gate (not guarded at that time), they could leave and no one would see! The following day we were asked NOT to park outide the building.

The guard can't read English and doesn't care. The teachers come and go, the guard doesn't get yelled at and the Admin think they have a handle on it. They never have and they never will. It's a game of cat and mouse and I am better at it than they are.

I hope they don't get a finger scanner though. I will hate carrying around those wax finger prints!

[Loaded]

hi there,

I'm currently teaching at a college in the northern provinces, doing 20 hours a week 'face time' teaching and getting 25,000 Bhat. One of the great reasons for this particular job was that the administration was never overly tight about the hours spent on school grounds when not teaching. As long as you were in by 8am and signed the book, if you finished at 12 or 2 or whenever, you could pretty well leave without any worries... keep your head down, do your job well, and they don't bother you was the school's unofficial motto.

Well, there has been a new 'law' passed recently where the foreign teachers must now finger scan before 8am and after 4pm every day.

This has miffed us a little bit. We held our hands up and said "OK, our contract does say teaching hours between 8-4" so in reality we had no leg to stand on, but the finger scanning has touched a nerve on an ethical/moral (not sure which is which) level - we have argued that fingers scanning is associated with criminals back home etc... and that we would be much more comfortable signing in instead.

We await the official verdict from the boss on whether it's finger scanning or signing in for us farang.

Personally, I have a disgust for such things and I genuinely feel Orwell's presence creeping ever closer. Maybe my defiance on this small matter is a small stand against the nanny state/big brother <deleted>, or maybe it is a simple rant as I am now over a barrel and will have to fulfill my contractual hours, meaning that my hourly wage is now under 150bhat per hour and for several hours each week I shall be merely 'hanging around' waiting for 4pm so I can sign out, go home and continue living (my once) enjoyable and relaxing life.

Do other schools 'demand' finger scanning and are your school 'in and out' times rigorously enforced?

I am contemplating a move into part time teaching coupled with me opening my own firm that would teach business people TOEFL and the likes directly on their premises.... not only would it bring in more money, the added independence and extra income would help to sustain my sanity!

Good luck with you and yours!

Jim

So, you have a contract that clearly states you work until 4pm, you've been getting away with slipping away earlier but now the school are going to enforce this clearly stated condition that you agreed to when you accepted the job by changing the method of checking arrival and departure times to a less easily manipulated system and you accuse them of having an ethical/moral problem - I suggest you look in a mirror.

[markg]

Jim

So, you have a contract that clearly states you work until 4pm, you've been getting away with slipping away earlier but now the school are going to enforce this clearly stated condition that you agreed to when you accepted the job by changing the method of checking arrival and departure times to a less easily manipulated system and you accuse them of having an ethical/moral problem - I suggest you look in a mirror.

yeah kinda gotta agree. Finger print scanning has been brought in for a reason, not just for fun. The reason is that the teachers couldnt be trusted. It's a sad state of affairs.

Clearly the school could have handled it better by asking the teachers to not leave early. They may well have done this, i dont know. And if teachers still leave early, then what are they supposed to do. I have worked in lots of other jobs and i cant think of one where you can just leave when you please to be honest.

Enforcement measures are just brought in because people cant act reasonably themselves.

That being said, i dont like the idea of a fingerprint scanner. I'd probably accidentally knock it over and break it.

[beano2274]

Finger scanning is also done by my students before and after a lesson.

Signing in at the first school I was at was a real pain, an old admin woman used to get the book at 7.30 and draw a red line under the name, but the farangs did not get done just the Thais.

My friend works in a school and if he is late 2 times he looses 1000baht.

But Schools are cottoning on the the fact that the Farang teachers have it easier than their Thai Teachers and get paid a lot more.

[Scott]

Unfortunately, Thailand seems to view technology as the panacea for all ills--it's not. CCTV can't replace police or surveillance. Finger scanners can't replace good supervision of staff.

I see the situation from both sides. From the Admin side, we need bodies around to supervise and take care of the students--there is a babysitting aspect to working at school. Things happen and some adult bodies are needed to help out.

But for a lot of teachers, but certainly not all, there is the issue of treating them like a factory worker instead of a responsible professional. Many schools are resource-poor and it's a lot easier for people to be able to go home and use the internet (if the school doesn't have it) etc.

Regardless, it's a good idea to keep track of where your employees are.

[Ijustwannateach]

Of course, forewarned is forearmed. If the school has a very strict attendance policy, you gotta toe the line.

That said, I appreciate Scott's realistic style. What good does it do to force teachers to stay until 4pm on the dot if they have no meaningful duties? Of course, the 'Thai teachers do it,' but often those Thai teachers are hired partly or altogether as homeroom managers, which is a different kind of job requiring their communication skills as classroom monitors more than as teachers of content.

I know that given the choice, I would work for a school which regarded me as a salaried worker who needed to finish duties as required- meaning that sometimes I would work double time during a week (to finish exams, for instance) and other times would have things easier (if my classes and other foreseeable duties finished at 3 I could go). If a school required very strict hours from me I would certainly refuse any (and that means any) off-duty-hours activities as being beyond the scope of my contract. That would include if the school did the kind of passive-aggressive BS that Garro mentions to manipulate me.

I don't like the 'lockdown' approach at schools because I don't approve of giving schools the right to control my lunchtime eating and shopping. Furthermore such schools usually violate fire codes in one way or another.

[Rumpole]

We use the sign in method, but during the day day the gates are locked and you need a written note to get out.

Sounds delightful. Land of the Free. Not.

[Scott]

Our school remains in a state of lockdown, but I am very liberal about giving a gate pass. Our location is slightly remote, so going out for lunch isn't a frequent occurrence, but we have a few who do.

The gate opens at 3:15 or thereabouts for the parents to come in. Around 3:30 from my office window I can see a small flood of teachers heading down the road--like rats from a drowning ship.

My advice to them is don't all go together/walk together. Don't leave early on the day when we wear the school shirt (easily identifiable).

The lockdown is for the protection of the kids. It doesn't permit unwanted guests driving in, and that has happened. It's not a serious lockdown, however, just one meant to deter strangers from entering the school grounds.

The guard knows quite a few of the frequent leavers, especially those going just across the road for coke or cigarettes. They get out without a pass.

All in all, it's not a bad system. It deters people from just leaving because they feel like it. It encourages people to seek permission and then we know they are gone (and can cover a class if something unforseen occurs), etc.

[aussiestyle1983]

we have argued that fingers scanning is associated with criminals back home etc... and that we would be much more comfortable signing in instead.

Plenty of organisations use finger scanning and I think its a good idea. If you don't like the job, go elsewhere. Is there anything stopping you from scanning your finger, teaching, going away, and then comming back later to sign off? Anyone can forge a log book or whatever, a finger scan is a good idea from an employers perspective.

[Phatcharanan]

But Schools are cottoning on the the fact that the Farang teachers have it easier than their Thai Teachers and get paid a lot more.

You would think that seeing as how it is the school that often makes the contract.....they would know exactly what the teachers get paid.

[Phatcharanan]

Of course, forewarned is forearmed. If the school has a very strict attendance policy, you gotta toe the line.

That said, I appreciate Scott's realistic style. What good does it do to force teachers to stay until 4pm on the dot if they have no meaningful duties? Of course, the 'Thai teachers do it,' but often those Thai teachers are hired partly or altogether as homeroom managers, which is a different kind of job requiring their communication skills as classroom monitors more than as teachers of content.

I know that given the choice, I would work for a school which regarded me as a salaried worker who needed to finish duties as required- meaning that sometimes I would work double time during a week (to finish exams, for instance) and other times would have things easier (if my classes and other foreseeable duties finished at 3 I could go). If a school required very strict hours from me I would certainly refuse any (and that means any) off-duty-hours activities as being beyond the scope of my contract. That would include if the school did the kind of passive-aggressive BS that Garro mentions to manipulate me.

I don't like the 'lockdown' approach at schools because I don't approve of giving schools the right to control my lunchtime eating and shopping. Furthermore such schools usually violate fire codes in one way or another.

Oh sure ! Like the schools back home allow teachers to wander in and out or clear off home early as they please..............I don't think.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

hey there,

thanks for the posts, they are all well thought out and well argued.

For me particularly, I can see the school's perspective in that they want a decent 'return on investment' from their foreign teachers which for them means being physically present. As "Ijustwannateach" correctly stated however, Thai teacher roles are inherently different from those of foreigners and it is complicated to manage both sets of teachers differently. When there is work to be done, we do it and do not 'clock watch' in the slightest. however, we would like to be managed maturely and responsibly and the sign in/sign out things is irksome.

That said, I agree with 'loaded' in that the finger scanning is a 'fool proof' method and that I can leave if I have any issues with it and that I knew the hours before signing the contract.

I guess it comes down to your personal choices and reasons for teaching in Thailand.

Enjoy

[haltes]

Signing in and out, finger scanning etc. is something for those in blue collar jobs, it's not for jobs that are allegedly done by professionals. This kind of micro management crap went out in the west about 40 years ago and I can't see it adds any benefit here in Asia.

You should put in the amount of time required to do your job professionally. This kind of employer attitude stinks i.e. it's the attitude of where the employer owns the employees, good (and fair) employers don't need to do this kind of thing becuase they often have good managers who know what's going on in their businesses.

It doesn't even prove anything, I can be physically present at work but do absolutely the bare minimum OR I can leave early and do a lot more becuase I have better resources at home. The management system in most Thai schools can be read about in the works of Charles Dickens, that's how outdated it is!

[Beacher]

Apart from the distasteful Orwellian aspect of finger-scanning, they're paying you absolute crap (25,000) for 20 contact hours a week. I can't imagine that people are busting down the door to get into such a rotten job situation. Tell them where to put their new technology. (Hint: It's a place where the sun doesn't shine.)

[seykota]

"So, you have a contract that clearly states you work until 4pm, you've been getting away with slipping away earlier but now the school are going to enforce this clearly stated condition that you agreed to when you accepted the job by changing the method of checking arrival and departure times to a less easily manipulated system and you accuse them of having an ethical/moral problem - I suggest you look in a mirror."

I agree with Loaded. I use the finger scanner without any problems as I signed a contract that stated my teaching hours and my working hours i.e. 16 hours teaching during my work week, Monday - Friday 8:30 - 16:30. I work at a university, therefore there are no 'homeroom' duties for the Thai lecturers and we have similar 'extra' duties. These include projects and research, if you need to leave the university to undertake these activities a note is not required, though if you require a van and driver, a written request is required 5 days in advance.

Finger scanning is more time efficient than manually checking signatures.

As Aussiestyle1983 wrote

"Plenty of organisations use finger scanning and I think its a good idea. If you don't like the job, go elsewhere. Is there anything stopping you from scanning your finger, teaching, going away, and then comming back later to sign off? Anyone can forge a log book or whatever, a finger scan is a good idea from an employers perspective."

[gmac]

A friend of mine had finger scanning introduced at her workplace, to catch out the slackers, but it was removed within a month as the Boss suddenly found out how much unpaid overtime was being worked!!

[phetaroi]

So, you have a contract that clearly states you work until 4pm, you've been getting away with slipping away earlier but now the school are going to enforce this clearly stated condition that you agreed to when you accepted the job by changing the method of checking arrival and departure times to a less easily manipulated system and you accuse them of having an ethical/moral problem - I suggest you look in a mirror.

My thoughts, as well. But then again, I'm a retired administrator, so I was the enemy and always wrong.

[phetaroi]

Signing in and out, finger scanning etc. is something for those in blue collar jobs, it's not for jobs that are allegedly done by professionals. This kind of micro management crap went out in the west about 40 years ago and I can't see it adds any benefit here in Asia.

You should put in the amount of time required to do your job professionally. This kind of employer attitude stinks i.e. it's the attitude of where the employer owns the employees, good (and fair) employers don't need to do this kind of thing becuase they often have good managers who know what's going on in their businesses.

It doesn't even prove anything, I can be physically present at work but do absolutely the bare minimum OR I can leave early and do a lot more becuase I have better resources at home. The management system in most Thai schools can be read about in the works of Charles Dickens, that's how outdated it is!

As a retired Western principal, I agree with you about it shouldn't be needed (checking in and out). But, when I say shouldn't be needed, I mean both from a perspective of the professional educator fulfilling his/her contract, and the administration leading in such a way that people really do act professionally. As a principal, I found it very embarrassing when I would have to speak with a teacher about not even fulfilling their 37.5 hour contract. For example, if I sign a contract saying that I will spend 37.5 hours on campus per week, then as a professional I should fulfill that contract. To not fulfill that contract is unprofessional.

I tended to stay out of such discussions when I was principal, but I found too many teachers who had a strange idea of what being a professional was. For example, the teacher who wanted to bribe me to sign her recertification record, even though she had fulfilled none of the requirements. The teacher who complained about not being treated professionally, while standing there unshaven in a t-shirt and torn and dirty jeans. Meanwhile, when I went to a lawyer, they were wearing suits...even at the grocery store they were wearing ties.

It's a very difficult concept.