StandardIssue

Again with the labeling. I guess that helps you sleep at night and justify all the energy you put into your book. That's pretty low. Labeling people who actually carefully study the literature as "thumpers" or "fundamentalists". IMHO an unhelpful attitude to have. There is very little in the AA Big Book and 12 and 12 to interpret. The forward to the first edition states " We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have re-covered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book. Hmmm, so how does that "group of drunks" higher power work? The best I can think is that you tell newcomers to "keep coming back" Tell newcomers to stay in meetings 16 hours each day to get recovery from alcoholism so you they can draw on that "collective" power of a group of drunks? By the way it doesn't say probably no individual human power could relieve our alcoholism. But 10 in a room 16 hours a day with room service could.

Just another observation about our conversation, you've not once answered any of my questions. Hmmm.. You choose to avoid the hard questions? Do yourself a favor. Go back and really study the literature. It's the best thing I ever did in the last several months. It has enabled me to be a good sponsor and help real alcoholics become recovered from alcoholism. The entire point I've been trying to make is that helping newcomers should be the main reason for recovered alcoholics to attend meetings. There is no other reason I go these days. Doing the 12th step is the highest calling for any AA member. Athiests and agnostics with decades of sobriety are welcome in meetings. But what is it that they offer when the entire purpose of the AA 12 step program is to find a Higher Power or Power Greater to relieve one from alcoholism? a) we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives b) Probably NO HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism c) God could and would if he were sought. It's read at every meeting mate.

Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. He's writing about NEWCOMERS IN THE FELLOWSHIP here. Not people with decades of sobriety. Again, of course, anyone can attend an AA meeting as the requirement for attendance is extremely open. "A desire to stop drinking". However, entrance in the the "fellowship of the spirit" mentioned on page 164 has a much higher cost. That cost is the learning and practice of the AA 12 step program. That program has a 2nd step thoroughly outlined in "We Agnostics". All throughout that chapter it urges people who are agnostic or atheist to have an open mind to experience the Power of a Higher Power through continuing on and doing the rest of the steps. To not even be willing to believe one cannot do step 2. Of course all newcomers should be accepted and given as wide a berth as possible in the fellowship to have any views, attitudes they want. But if newcomers wish recovery the AA way then it is always suggested they do what every AA who has successfully recovered from alcoholism the AA way does. LEARN AND DO THE STEPS as outlined in the literature. Nobody is ever pressured to do the steps. I've rarely seen anyone "pressure" anybody in AA to do anything they do not want to do. Exactly how would anyone do that anyway? It's read at every meeting "Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery." Again, if an alcoholic wants recovery the AA way then they ought to practice the AA program, which again, you seem to not understand, is completely separate from the fellowship of AA. The program is the 12 steps. The fellowship are people who attend meetings. You've not made a "case". There is no case to be made. There is only the work of helping suffering alcoholics recover from alcoholism and the most effective way to do that as specifically outlined in the AA book and Twelve and Twelve. If you want to start trading Bill W quotes here's another from the grapevine. Bill Wilson stated that “Sobriety, freedom from alcohol from the teaching and practice of the 12 steps is the SOLE purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have ALWAYS failed. If we don’t stick to these principles will shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone”. (1958 Grapevine article)

Re-reading your post just convinces me that I've "struck a chord" and all you have is a nonsensical retort that "my rhetoric has violated the 3rd tradition". Again, I'm talking about the program. Not the fellowship. The traditions have nothing to do with the program. They were developed as guidelines for the fellowship. (read the forward to the 2nd edition in the AA book which specifically talks about this) Here, I will make a comment about the fellowship and this so called "Secular AA". The fact that there exists a faction of the fellowship who want to call themselves "Secular AA" is disunity in and of itself. AA is AA. There is no other AA. By declaring themselves "Secular" they separate themselves from the mainstream fellowship. Is that unity? To me this is not unity. These are people separating themselves from the mainstream fellowship. I can't see how anyone could see it any other way. It is an act of disunity for any group to declare that they are another "type" of AA fellowship or program.

Where did I say atheists and agnostics are not welcome in the AA fellowship? Of course they are! The traditions apply to the fellowship. I sure hope you understand that. The traditions have nothing to do with getting recovery from alcoholism. Going to AA meetings does not give recovery from alcoholism. Having a spiritual awakening by doing the steps does. I suggest you re-read my post again. Anyone no matter what their beliefs are welcome in the AA fellowship, however if someone wants to do the 12 step program correctly to get recovery from alcoholism they will have to follow the instructions as laid out in the literature. The fact you are labeling me a "fundamentalist" is mud slinging mud and offensive language. Judging my spiritual condition is taking my inventory, I hope you understand that this is not a good idea as recommended by most AA's. Your rhetoric, again, appears to come from prejudice and fixed ideas you have concerning the AA program. I recommend you consider are not be correct and actually study the AA literature.

Respectfully, anyone with some intelligence knows it's easy to make hyperbolic comments and statements as though they are fact without any actual statistics. The very fact that there exists a faction of AA (AA secular) that separates themselves from the mainstream fellowship speaks volumes. It shows that they choose to do a program other than the actual AA program. In my opinion this shows that instead of accepting the true program of recovery as specifically communicated in the literature they choose to change it to suit themselves. What's worse it smacks of a type arrogance that goes against the idea of surrendering ones will over to a Power Greater. They are holding onto the kind of prejudice that the chapter "We Agnostics" specifically encourages agnostics or atheists to let go of. They choose to hang on to their old ideas (will) and ignore key ideas of the true AA program.

So discouraged! No mention of Dolly Paron, Kim Kardasian or Beyonce! They have the most influential figures I've ever seen.

I'm not knocking meetings. My point is that they are not required. Personally I found I had to travel the AA path that is laid out in the AA Book. Rarely have we found a person fail who has thoroughly followed OUR path. the people who wrote the Big Book wrote that in Chapter 5. Their path is the 12 steps. I don't mean to be argumentative but it is not a good idea to tell new comers that everyone has their own path to recovery in AA. There is only one path and that is to do the 12 steps if someone wants recovery the AA way. Most people can't stay in meetings 16 hours a day. Doing the 12 steps gave me a way to live sober the other 15 hours a day. I am 31 years sober. I go to meetings maybe 4 times a week, sponsor 2 men and most of my social life is outside of AA. When I go to meetings it better not be for my satisfaction. It should be for me to serve God ... by helping others get to be recovered by sharing what the steps are, how I did them and the result of becoming recovered. Just like people who wrote the AA book 80 years ago who "recovered from a seemingly hopeless stay of mind and body" Forward to the First Edition.

That is an extremely rare occurrence if I ever heard one. I hope you are being honest and not trolling ... but if it actually happened i find that very sad indeed. Guys like that don't carry the true message of AA. -- Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of the steps. I would suggest you study the literature. Especially the chapter "We Agnostics". I am a student of the literature for awhile now. Anyone who goes to meetings with decades of sobriety and proudly announces themselves as an atheist just does meetings and in my experience has not studied the basic texts. They obviously have not done the program as designed and also may not be real alcoholics. If they actually did program as designed they would have come to know a Power Greater than themselves. Guys like that (with decades of sobriety) are egoists bucking the program and spitting in the face of the majority of us who were once atheists or had some belief to begin with and came to know a God of our own understanding by doing the 12 steps. Think about it.. most people who know the program and are trying to put it in their lives are trying to practice spirituality and continue to grow in their relationship with a God. How spiritual is it to come in to AA and say you know better? What is that? Now, of course about half of new comers in AA are agnostic or atheists but if they do the program with a good sponsor whey will be faced with the fact that the programs asks, in Step 2, for even a willingness to believe their might be a God or Higher Power that can help. Do yourself a favor. Go online and find either the Joe and Charlie Big Book study seminar or the Bob D and Scott L big book study seminars and study the program of AA. What I say to anyone who claims decades of sobriety in AA as an atheist is this. Why go to meetings of AA if your not going to do the program of AA. Meetings are meetings the 12 steps are the program. Nobody has to do the steps but if you are not going to do the steps as designed why hang out in meetings for decades? Just to hear yourself talk? Just for the social value? Just so you can pontificate about some meaningless crap you think is the program of AA or your personal "interpretation" of the program without actually having informed yourself by carefully studying it? That is NOT HELPING! The rest of us are trying to save our lives by finding a Power Greater than ourselves to solve our problem. (that's a quote from the big book). The main purpose of the book is to find a power greater to solve your problem. The entire program is based on finding a Power Greater than oneself to solve the obsession for alcohol.

It'd been great if all I had to do to recover from alcoholism is go to meetings, roundups and conventions but those are just AA social events. Hell of a lot easier than doing all the steps. In actuality I found in order to recover from alcoholism the most important thing to do was initially steps 1-9 with a sponsor who had studied the AA Big Book and Twelve and Twelve and then do steps 10 and 11 as is directed in the literature daily. I must also sponsor other alcoholics looking for recovery as often has time allows (step 12). Meetings and fellowship never gave me the recovery I have had the last 31 years. I think it's important for anyone new to AA to understand meetings and fellowship do not give recovery from alcoholism. Doing the 12 steps does.

Are you a THC user? someone who uses drugs probably ought not dole out advice on how to quit a drug. Wat Tham Krabok is pretty extreme .. it does not have a great track record though.. It's more like a detox than anything else.. for long term recovery AA seems to be the best game in town .. I'm 31 years clean and sober using the 12 step program and attend meetings a few times a week. It saved my life ... literally.

Respectfully, I'm not sure why you are posting, seems you have made up your mind what you need to do to help yourself. I will offer this. If you are a real alcoholic you've most likely lost the ability to control your drinking yourself. That is how AA describes alcoholism. The inability to leave booze alone for very long no matter how great the reason or urge. An alcoholic is someone who wants to give it up, knows they have to give it up, has every reason to give it up, can give it up for a little while, maybe a week, two weeks, a few months but then goes back to it with the same or worse consequences. If you are a drinker of that class then you are probably alcoholic and trying to stay away from drink will just eventually lead to a drink again. Go to any good AA meeting and most all real alcoholics will attest to this fact. Real alcoholics can't stay away from it very long on their own will power or self discipline. if you manage to stop and stay stop by taking the benzos for a month to "dry out" and then can get off the benzos and stay stopped using your own self discipline then great! .. but if you find you relapse again into drinking you may be a "true" alcoholic or a "real" alcoholic as AA describes the illness. If that be the case then you may very well have the same illness I do. Alcoholism. I found recovery from alcoholism by going to AA meetings, and doing the 12 steps of AA using a sponsor who used the AA text book which gives instructions on how stay sober the AA way. That book is called Alcoholics Anonymous and can be found in PDF or audio version on the official AA website. https://aa.org. If you find you cannot stop drinking once you start or cannot give it up entirely even though you honestly want to you are probably alcoholic and AA has a way to recover. if you find you cannot stop on your own methods then AA is available to help. If you want the help don't hesitate to reach out. AA meetings for expats are available here in Thailand.. some are better than others. I prefer the daily online AA noon meetings found at https://aathailand.info

Why take a chance. If you have a re-entry permit and long term visa better to just see a human Immigration official

Its all electric and all computerized that is the problem? LOL!!! todays conventional combustion engine gas/diesel cars also use computers and have massive electrical systems. Another arm chair expert LOL! .. Electric cars are the way to go period. Combustion engine cars have greatly contributed to climate change by spewing tons of carbon dioxide and pollution into the worlds air daily for decades. The era of the combution engine car is coming to an end. Electric cars are so much simpler from an engineering stand point that it reveals the ignorance of anyone complaining that the EV problem is they are all electrical and computerized. Stay in your lane arm chair experts LOL!! Electric cars are much simpler to engineer and manufacture. If you want to make any argument about the down side it is mainly the manufacture of lithium ion batteries that is the issue BUT battery technology is being improved almost daily.

Never had a problem with online reporting in the past, although I have been out of country in 2022 and most of 2023. I am now on a Non-O 1 year permission to stay issued in Dec 2023. My first 90 day report is due 26th this month (as stated on the 90 day check in card stapled into my passport) I have been doing 90 day check in's for years (I have been doing long stays in country since 2011) Please be careful making assumptions that people are "unfamiliar" with 90 day reporting. I use no agents ever and do all my immigration business myself.