Reading/speaking Thai.

[mangkorn]

Examples that I can't get my tongue around: เบื่อ , ตั้งชื่อ , and so on. Or is it just me?

Rather than your tongue, it's probably your mouth: smiling will help your pronunciation of -ือ and เ-ือ. Seriously.

[Harcourt]

Examples that I can't get my tongue around: เบื่อ , ตั้งชื่อ , and so on. Or is it just me?

Rather than your tongue, it's probably your mouth: smiling will help your pronunciation of -ือ and เ-ือ. Seriously.

Wow! You're right! . Great tip, thankyou very much. Any others?

After thinking about it, I can truly see Softwater's point about reading and writing being more effective communication.....for my flaws in pronunciation for starters.

[Richard W]

The first 'consonant' on Manee sounds like 'aw' - which seems like a vowel, not a consonant.

That's because the consonant, being chiefly a total cessation of sound, is not particularly audible.

[meadish_sweetball]

To exand on what Richard W said, it is a 'glottal stop' - as the name suggests it involves blocking the air's passage through the glottis.

Glottal stops replacing 't' sounds abound in the Cockney (and has spread to other varieties of British English) pronunciation of words such as 'letter' 'butter' and also at the end of some words.

In fast US English, words like 'fountain' will also get a glottal stop in place of the t, making it sound something like Foun'in.

The easiest common example word for demonstrating a glottal stop though, is the in-between sound represented by the hyphen in 'Uh-oh!' Say it slowly and notice how at one point of the word, you completely block the glottis.

[sedeflonga]

...

So, I thought I had better learn to read Thai first......but it seems that I could learn to read it easier if I could speak it!

What's your thoughts?

About me: I am a 42 year old German and learned Thai reading and speaking myself without school but with the help of many locals.

My experience after 16 years LoS:

When arriving the first time in Thailand in 1993, my communication skills to communicate with Thais -besides English, were with arms, feet and facial expressions only. A Thai guy thought me how to count from 1 to 10 in the first 2 weeks. I asked most of the words I hear everyday what their meaning is. Thai's were always very helpful in explaining and translating the meaning of some sentence/word to me.

It took me about 3-4 years so that I could understand the mainstream Thai conversation. I was able to understood more then I could speak and many words revealed themself to me by logic as of an unknown word being spoken in a sentence, but the context was clear. I didn't always ask for every new word which I suspect should be the word in context. I used more then often the wrong words just because I thought I 'knew' the meaning of it, which in turn gave me some problems -understanding wise and on the receiving side, communication wise.

It wasn't enough to understand TV news because the news-speaker pronounce Thai language very different from normal/local citizen. It is not only the dialect (from north or south Thailand), but simple wrong pronunciation. e.g. calling a girlfriend: 'Tilak' (as every1 knows its meaning), the real pronunciation should be 'Ti rak'. This small difference had made my quest to understand the Thai language much harder. I found that even I understood locals quiet clear after a few years in Thailand, I was devastated to find out that I can not understand much of the news or other TV' shows sometimes, because of their very clear pronunciation (the news probably used some words which I didn't know at that time too, but I was frustrated to see that I can not use my language skills other then for a chatter on the streets).

So I began my quest for the true/clear/real Thai language but without the help of any school or institution. I might add that there is no special reason for me not going to any language school, but I think I gained a lot more experience in the Thai language then others attenting school, I think.

First of all, when I wanted to know what the meaning of new words were, I asked the Thai-side to pronounce it like in school, loud and slowly. I found out more then often that words I already know are pronounced different. I bought for 35 Baht 'KorKai' -the Thai-Alphabet, which every child gets to learn. I asked my girlfriend (at that time) to tell me what each character means and -more importantly- if translated to English, what character it represents in english language. I was amazed after a few month how many words I learned wrong. Because I drive motorbike and car, it was very useful to learn reading, especially upcountry. Everywhere I look around I can read and that is something not to underestimate, especially in emergency situations. It took me again a few years to read fluently. The speed of reading catches up by the years. I can say that I read maybe 10-20% faster every year. Interesting is to mention that I left Thailand for 2 years to work abroad and when I came back I was reading so much faster (at least 50% or more) then before. I didn't read anything Thai, so there was no training. I guess this is something for linguists to discuss.

To make things short:

My opinion is that the key to real Thai language is reading because you have the ability to see ('read') the word exactly as it is written. Before learning reading, some has to learn speaking. It makes no sense to learn reading without the knowledge of speaking. Yes, we can categorize/translate the Thai-Alphabet from Thai to English but without it meaning (because can not speak), there is no meaning in learning reading.

1. Lean speaking -10 words vocabulary per day. Use everyday-words to start.

2. After you feel that you get the idea whats going on in the streets of LoS (language wise!!) you should learn Korkai

Buy Korkai (30-50 Baht) and Translate Thai alphabet to English Alphabet

All those exceptions in Thai reading are not that hard to understand. In fact its easier then learning German Start with simple words.

The only thing still annoying is that the Thai-text not has any spaces. That makes reading much harder, but you will overcome it too.

I won't, lol!

3. Try to surround yourself by Thai more then farang. I've seen so many farangs being mostly with farangs. Its easier to learn if your

surrounded by the language.

4. Try to speak Thai as often as you can. Tell your Thai-boy/girlfriend to stop talking English to you. Tell them to speak in Thai language, but

a bit slower, if you have problems understanding it. You can always ask what the meaning is afterward.

Alright, I hope it helps some of you on the quest I am still on, because as you know: Learning never ends ;-)

[Sateev]

It seems to me that there is a piece of the original poster's question missing: what is the goal? Is it to be able to converse fluently? To read street signs, or to read scholarly works?

Given enough time, and a lack of a goal, any order will do...

If conversational fluency is the goal, however, attempting to learn to read first will utterly stifle your communication skills. This is because your mind will learn incorrect pronunciation, and associate it firmly with the words you are memorizing. When you finally do begin to speak, it will be doubly difficult to go back and unlearn these errors.

I know several people who know how to read fairly well, but can't order a plate of rice. Their speech is unintelligible to Thais.

I, along with an apparent minority of posters, believe that the key is listening. Learn to hear the tones, which most Westerners can not distinguish until they have expended many hours of effort. When the light finally comes on, and you hear the different sounds, you will realize that that close is NOT good enough -- the tone makes all the difference.

In order to begin to speak, feedback is essential. At this stage, boring and repetitive reciting of the vowel sounds in each of the five tones is really your friend. A teacher is essential at this point, to correct the inevitable mistakes, until you learn all five tones and how to speak, and especially, hear them.

No harm memorizing the alphabet in this beginning phase, but my experience is that actual reading of words is counter-productive at this stage. Also, how you memorize the alphabet is important. Often it is taught in 'alphabetical order'. While this may help you find words in a dictionary, it is of no other use. Better to learn the alphabet in consonant class order, so that, later, when you know the tones, you can apply the tone rules, which depend on the consonant class (among other things).

Listening is the key to speaking, and learning to read should follow your ability to hear (listen) well.

Sateev

[dvc]

If conversational fluency is the goal, however, attempting to learn to read first will utterly stifle your communication skills. This is because your mind will learn incorrect pronunciation, and associate it firmly with the words you are memorizing. When you finally do begin to speak, it will be doubly difficult to go back and unlearn these errors.

I know several people who know how to read fairly well, but can't order a plate of rice. Their speech is unintelligible to Thais.

No harm memorizing the alphabet in this beginning phase, but my experience is that actual reading of words is counter-productive at this stage. Also, how you memorize the alphabet is important. Often it is taught in 'alphabetical order'. While this may help you find words in a dictionary, it is of no other use. Better to learn the alphabet in consonant class order, so that, later, when you know the tones, you can apply the tone rules, which depend on the consonant class (among other things).

Sateev

I learned to read and write at the same time as I began to learn to speak. Not only did it not stifle my communication skills, it, (the ability to read), improved them greatly. One only learns incorrect pronunciation by using an inaccurate source. If the people in question, (the ones you mention who can read but cannot order a plate of rice), learned the sounds of the consonants and vowels, only via a Latin transliteration, then yes, it's quite possible to pick up poor pronunciation. However, if, like I did, you learn the sounds of the consonants and vowels by imitating the sound of a native Thai speaker, you cannot go wrong. Most people in my acquaintance, who can read and write, learned to do so by copying the sound of a native speaker. As a result, their spoken Thai is clear and understandable by any native Thai speaker. To suggest that learning to read first leads to incorrect pronunciation is, at best misleading. My own view is that learning to read and write should occur not first, but in tandem with the study of speech. I base this opinion on my own experience and the experience of others in my acquaintance.

I agree that learning the consonants in class/group order is probably more beneficial in the first instance.

[SoftWater]

I know several people who know how to read fairly well, but can't order a plate of rice. Their speech is unintelligible to Thais.

No harm memorizing the alphabet in this beginning phase, but my experience is that actual reading of words is counter-productive at this stage.

I think this paints the picture in terms that are far too 'black and white'. Agreed, you cannot learn correct pronunciation without listening to native speakers, but to say that 'reading is counter-productive' goes too far. These skills consolidate each other, and I'd be wary of making broad generalisations about the cognitive effect of one skill on another. It's not that simple.

As a language teacher and learner, my experience is that the wider input you have of all four skills (reading, writing, speaking, listening) from as early a stage as possible the better, both in terms of proficiency and motivation. That's certainly how we teach English as a second language, and I don't see why it should be different for learning Thai or any other language.

Edited August 10, 2009 by SoftWater

[Harcourt]

It seems to me that there is a piece of the original poster's question missing: what is the goal? Is it to be able to converse fluently? To read street signs, or to read scholarly works?

Given enough time, and a lack of a goal, any order will do...

If conversational fluency is the goal, however, attempting to learn to read first will utterly stifle your communication skills. This is because your mind will learn incorrect pronunciation, and associate it firmly with the words you are memorizing. When you finally do begin to speak, it will be doubly difficult to go back and unlearn these errors.

I know several people who know how to read fairly well, but can't order a plate of rice. Their speech is unintelligible to Thais.

I, along with an apparent minority of posters, believe that the key is listening. Learn to hear the tones, which most Westerners can not distinguish until they have expended many hours of effort. When the light finally comes on, and you hear the different sounds, you will realize that that close is NOT good enough -- the tone makes all the difference.

In order to begin to speak, feedback is essential. At this stage, boring and repetitive reciting of the vowel sounds in each of the five tones is really your friend. A teacher is essential at this point, to correct the inevitable mistakes, until you learn all five tones and how to speak, and especially, hear them.

No harm memorizing the alphabet in this beginning phase, but my experience is that actual reading of words is counter-productive at this stage. Also, how you memorize the alphabet is important. Often it is taught in 'alphabetical order'. While this may help you find words in a dictionary, it is of no other use. Better to learn the alphabet in consonant class order, so that, later, when you know the tones, you can apply the tone rules, which depend on the consonant class (among other things).

Listening is the key to speaking, and learning to read should follow your ability to hear (listen) well.

Sateev

I appreciate what you say Sateev....my goal is to be fluent. Period. If I am a poor student, I would settle to be conversational, but prefer to be literate also.

What you have overlooked is that I am self-teaching. This is why online resources with audio are such a boon...I get to read the character or word, and hear it.

The reason I am now of the mind to become literate first, or at least place more emphasis on literacy whilst aquiring a vocabulary, is because printed resources do not transliterate satisfactorily.

It is thanks to all the excellent posters on this thread that I have reached this decision: to concentrate on literacy using online audio-enhanced sources, whilst trying to expand my spoken vocabulary.

[SoftWater]

It is thanks to all the excellent posters on this thread that I have reached this decision: to concentrate on literacy using online audio-enhanced sources, whilst trying to expand my spoken vocabulary.

Harcourt, an excellent online resource if you haven't come across it yet (it's menitoned in the pinned thread on resources but worth repeating here, I think) is the free Ghetings Reader. The whole book WITH audio (that's what makes this special) can be downloaded for FREE. You can practice your listening skills from native speakers as Sateev suggests AND practice reading along too. Of course, you'll need to get familiar with the Thai writing system first to do it (maybe start with the Manee reader on Seasite), but it's an excellent way to progress. There's no English translations provided for the text, which to me is a good thing, but there are plenty of people on TV who are or have worked through this book (including me, currently about a third of the way through) and can help you with the sticky bits.

Has anyone started a Ghetings Reader thread? Would people be interested in this? I have a few questions of my own from this book.

The link for you convenience is http://siamwestdc.com/thaireader-UH/index.htm

I don't know how long it'll stay up (good things always have a habit of disappearing, at least till someone decides to start charging for them!), so my advice is download it now even if you're not ready for it yet; you can save it for the future.

Edited August 10, 2009 by SoftWater

[Thewayup]

It is thanks to all the excellent posters on this thread that I have reached this decision: to concentrate on literacy using online audio-enhanced sources, whilst trying to expand my spoken vocabulary.

Harcourt, an excellent online resource if you haven't come across it yet (it's menitoned in the pinned thread on resources but worth repeating here, I think) is the free Ghetings Reader. The whole book WITH audio (that's what makes this special) can be downloaded for FREE. You can practice your listening skills from native speakers as Sateev suggests AND practice reading along too. Of course, you'll need to get familiar with the Thai writing system first to do it (maybe start with the Manee reader on Seasite), but it's an excellent way to progress. There's no English translations provided for the text, which to me is a good thing, but there are plenty of people on TV who are or have worked through this book (including me, currently about a third of the way through) and can help you with the sticky bits.

Has anyone started a Ghetings Reader thread? Would people be interested in this? I have a few questions of my own from this book.

The link for you convenience is http://siamwestdc.com/thaireader-UH/index.htm

I don't know how long it'll stay up (good things always have a habit of disappearing, at least till someone decides to start charging for them!), so my advice is download it now even if you're not ready for it yet; you can save it for the future.

Thanks so much for posting the Ghetings Reader - it looks like a really good resource.

I've just finished learning the Thai Alphabet with the Manee Reader - not on SEASite but at http://www.learningthai.com/books/manee/index.html . I thought the pace with which new graphemes (vowels, consonants, tone marks) are introduced was perfect. It has loads of audio exercises with each level, they have been great for improving my pronunciation and reinforcing the association with written Thai.

I agree with Sateev that listening to Thai speakers is the best way to learn. However, it is very, very helpful to have a written reference for what you hear, and Thai script is much better than any transliteration. It gives you a much better sense of the language's logic - with the consonant classes and tone rules, there is a lot more sense to the language, though the complexity is daunting at first.

I am doing some academic research on Vietnam, which has a syllabic tonal language (like Thai) but it has a Romanised writing system called Quốc Ngữ. Even though it's a 100% standardised, consistent system, it is totally contrived, and basically makes the spoken language more of a headache! By comparison, the Thai Alphabet is a real blessing in disguise.

[Sateev]

I learned to read and write at the same time as I began to learn to speak. Not only did it not stifle my communication skills, it, (the ability to read), improved them greatly. One only learns incorrect pronunciation by using an inaccurate source. If the people in question, (the ones you mention who can read but cannot order a plate of rice), learned the sounds of the consonants and vowels, only via a Latin transliteration, then yes, it's quite possible to pick up poor pronunciation. However, if, like I did, you learn the sounds of the consonants and vowels by imitating the sound of a native Thai speaker, you cannot go wrong. Most people in my acquaintance, who can read and write, learned to do so by copying the sound of a native speaker. As a result, their spoken Thai is clear and understandable by any native Thai speaker. To suggest that learning to read first leads to incorrect pronunciation is, at best misleading. My own view is that learning to read and write should occur not first, but in tandem with the study of speech. I base this opinion on my own experience and the experience of others in my acquaintance.

I agree that learning the consonants in class/group order is probably more beneficial in the first instance.

Maybe I didn't state it as clearly as I might: I have found that learning to read FIRST is counterproductive. Doing so concurrently, if you can, is certainly possible, and productive for SOME.

In the end, each person will have strengths and weaknesses that determine the best way for THEM to learn.

I do, however, take issue with the poster who made the comparison with teaching English as a Second Language (ESL). Teaching non-tonal language speakers to speak a tonal language has no correlation to teaching English (a non-tonal language) to anybody. Learning to 'hear', i.e., distinguish the different tones, and finally, to be able to reproduce them, is essential - not, as some students seem to think, an afterthought. To the extent that reading causes you to mentally 'intone' the word wrong, it is counterproductive, period. If you have the basic ability to hear, and reproduce the tonal quality of a word, reading becomes effective.

I should note, too, that there are different kinds of reading, and the study of reading. As an example, one well-known school in Times Square teaches by presenting words arranged in a sentence, and having the class repeat them, with the correct tone. This 'sight-pattern' reading is relatively effective in vocabulary building, and with the attendant feedback, is effective for some in conversing.

As another example, another well-known school in the same building, teaches listening and repeating for two month-long modules, using the dreaded phonetics. Later, the students are weaned off phonetics, as they study vowels and tone rules. The result is an ability to read, and pronounce, ANY Thai word. Subsequent modules build speed and vocabulary.

Contrast these with the ALG method, taught at another well-known school on Ratchadamri. There, they want you to LISTEN only for 1000 - 2000 hours! Speaking is introduced only after the student had heard a LOT of Thai, and seen a lot of gestures and stick-figures drawn on the board.

ALG is discussed on many venues, and it's originator, Marvin Brown, did a LOT of research to validate it. Still, I don't believe it's the best way for everyone. People learn differently; some of the best Thai speakers certainly had other methods than those mentioned here.

I would say that it's best to be diligent: all roads lead to Rome. At least eventually...

Sateev

[dvc]

I've just finished learning the Thai Alphabet with the Manee Reader - not on SEASite but at http://www.learningthai.com/books/manee/index.html . I thought the pace with which new graphemes (vowels, consonants, tone marks) are introduced was perfect. It has loads of audio exercises with each level, they have been great for improving my pronunciation and reinforcing the association with written Thai.

I am doing some academic research on Vietnam, which has a syllabic tonal language (like Thai) but it has a Romanised writing system called Quốc Ngữ. Even though it's a 100% standardised, consistent system, it is totally contrived, and basically makes the spoken language more of a headache! By comparison, the Thai Alphabet is a real blessing in disguise.

Isn't it true?! Only once one has a handle on the Thai written language can one fully appreciate what a marvellous piece of linguistic engineering it is.

[RickBradford]

I am doing some academic research on Vietnam, which has a syllabic tonal language (like Thai) but it has a Romanised writing system called Quốc Ngữ. Even though it's a 100% standardised, consistent system, it is totally contrived, and basically makes the spoken language more of a headache!

As someone who learnt Vietnamese over a 12-year period, I'd tend to agree that the artificial nature of 'quoc ngu' is no help to the learning of Vietnamese. It seems to lack any kind of flavour and sense of history, somehow.

But you must remember it was introduced for very specific political purposes; to bring literacy to the ordinary people of Vietnam, first to understand the Bible, and centuries later to understand anti-colonialist tracts and Marxist theory.

The Thai alphabet, with its quirkiness and visible archaeology, seems to hold a cultural dimension which VN lacks, and hence helps retention. I don't know why หมึก is more evocative than mực (word is identical in VN & Thai, both as regards the animal and the writing fluid), but I would agree that the Thai alphabet is a blessing in (a very good) disguise.

[SoftWater]

I do, however, take issue with the poster who made the comparison with teaching English as a Second Language (ESL). Teaching non-tonal language speakers to speak a tonal language has no correlation to teaching English (a non-tonal language) to anybody. Learning to 'hear', i.e., distinguish the different tones, and finally, to be able to reproduce them, is essential - not, as some students seem to think, an afterthought. To the extent that reading causes you to mentally 'intone' the word wrong, it is counterproductive, period. If you have the basic ability to hear, and reproduce the tonal quality of a word, reading becomes effective.

Sateev

I think we can agree that communicative success for someone speaking Thai is heavily dependent on tone; in English, it is heavily dependent on achieving correct syllable stress. In that sense, the demands on speakers of English and Thai are different.

Despite different demands on communicative success, the tried and tested method for adults acquiring a second language remains the same across all languages: immerse yourself in the language as much as possible, repeat and practice until it becomes internalised (i.e. does not require conscious thought or translation).

All four language skills will help you with this (reading, writing, listening, speaking). To my knowledge, there is not a single piece of valid academic research that shows prioritising one of the four language skills over another leads to greater or lesser success in Thai or any other language. Nor is there any research that shows that one skill is positively detrimental to one’s chances of success as suggested in the quote above.

I don’t doubt that some people’s individual learning path may have prioritised one skill over another, and they may have gone on to acquire their target language successfully. That in no way implies either

i. that their method will work for all or even the majority of people, or – and more importantly –

ii. that the prioritisation they used was, in fact, a significant determiner of their success.

Language use is a highly complex cognitive skill, and the variables are so great that nothing short of a long-term and extensive research project with a large sample and one or more control groups would be able to prove that some particular factor or single technique made a significant difference.

Speak, read, write, listen. Do all of these as much and as often as you can. The one piece of advice beyond contestation among education professionals is that frequency of practice will be the primary determiner of your success, and this is true whether you are learning English or you are learning Thai. There are no magic formulas; beware anyone who tells you otherwise, particularly if they are a private language school selling ‘a unique method’ based on their own ‘research’.

Edited August 12, 2009 by SoftWater

[chuppachops]

I started learning to read & write the Thai alphabet about a year before I moved here, as well as a little speaking/listening. By the time I got here I could read road & shop signs and continued learning vocab. I could get by speaking Thai to people who couldn't speak English, but find reading much more important. I still read all Thai signs I pass as practise.

For further reading/writing study I tend to use Thai books aimed at teaching English such as พูดอังกฤษแบบฝรั่ง (translated as "How to Speak English with Confidence"!) and learn any words I don't know as I read through.

I'm still not the best with the tones, but reading helps to form full sentences which help Thais understand, if pronounciation is not perfect and I know what the tones should be - they just don't always come out right!

If anyone is serious about learning Thai I would say learn to read asap.