ขำ

[DavidHouston]

I am confused about the word "ขำ". Lexitron has:

"ขำ [V] laugh; amuse; giggle; snicker; snigger; titter

Syn. ตลก, ขบขัน, หัวเราะ, ขำขัน

Def. ชวนให้ขบขันนึกอยากหัวเราะขึ้นมา.

Sample:เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง"

as the second definition.

Domnern-Sathienpong has "amusing, humorous, funny".

Of course, there is a real difference between a comedian being "funny" and the audience response "laughing". In Thai, can "ขำ" mean "หัวเราะ" as well? (Of course, as noted above Thai has several synonyms which tend to be more specific but with the Lexitron synonyms shown, the question remains.)

The sample sentence raises the question as well:

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

In this sentence both "ขำ" and "หัวเราะ" are used, almost in juxtaposition. And, the former term seems to mean "to find something funny", as opposed to "being humorous". Perhaps the terms are used interchangeably in common parlance?

Any thoughts? Thanks.

[meadish_sweetball]

In this sentence both "ขำ" and "หัวเราะ" are used, almost in juxtaposition. And, the former term seems to mean "to find something funny", as opposed to "being humorous". Perhaps the terms are used interchangeably in common parlance?

Yes, in my experience they are. I am sure words can be added to modify a little/create a more specific meaning too.

In Thai, can "ขำ" mean "หัวเราะ" as well?

I've heard ขำ used in the sense 'be amused'; find something funny/amusing when commenting on a person who is laughing, so in that roundabout way, I guess it can. But my feeling is that it is more about the fact that somebody finds something funny than the actual act of laughing.

[tgeezer]

I am confused about the word "ขำ". Lexitron has:

"ขำ [V] laugh; amuse; giggle; snicker; snigger; titter

Syn. ตลก, ขบขัน, หัวเราะ, ขำขัน

Def. ชวนให้ขบขันนึกอยากหัวเราะขึ้นมา.

Sample:เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง"

as the second definition.

Domnern-Sathienpong has "amusing, humorous, funny".

Of course, there is a real difference between a comedian being "funny" and the audience response "laughing". In Thai, can "ขำ" mean "หัวเราะ" as well? (Of course, as noted above Thai has several synonyms which tend to be more specific but with the Lexitron synonyms shown, the question remains.)

The sample sentence raises the question as well:

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

In this sentence both "ขำ" and "หัวเราะ" are used, almost in juxtaposition. And, the former term seems to mean "to find something funny", as opposed to "being humorous". Perhaps the terms are used interchangeably in common parlance?

Any thoughts? Thanks.

I tried the dictionary and it is not in there as a verb, it has ขัน for both verb and adjective. I looked at thai-language and they have ขำขัน whereas the RID has ขบขัน It is very strange since you seem to have a definition of ขำ and a sample sentence containing it.

If it were a word; in the sample sentence it is a verb whereas in the second sentence it is as a noun 'laughing' however that shouldn't make much difference except perhaps เสียงขัน is not common.

[DavidHouston]

As far as the sample sentence goes, it is not clear to me what the meaning is:

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

Could this be:

"I see that you are finding something very funny; [however I would appreciate if you would] keep the sound of your laughter down.

or

"Whatever it is that you are finding so funny, please don't laugh so loudly."

What do you think; am I understanding this sentence correctly?

[meadish_sweetball]

Your second translation is closer I feel. The second part is not the problem, is it? It's easy to understand the speaker wants the person/persons addressed not to laugh so loudly.

The problem lies in the first part, it's not a genuine question I feel, more of a rhetorical thing because the speaker's main message is to tell them to keep it down.

My gut feeling is that it's somewhat more brusque, either somebody who is irritated for real, or somebody who is joining in the banter and pretends to be annoyed with a sparkle in his/her eye.

'What do you find so incredibly hilarious? Keep it down a notch.'

Not sure that the softening บ้าง is enough to warrant a 'please' in English in this case.

[tgeezer]

I tried the dictionary and it is not in there as a verb,

I have limited resources here and of course can find it in Mary Haas and on-line in Thai-Eng sources but not in RID on-line or in my student's dictionary, can anyone give me a Thai definition please?

[SoftWater]

I read this differently (and probably erroneously), but for what its worth:

You always find everything so funny, (but) keep the noise down a little could you.

(BTW, my dictionary at home only has ขำ as an adjective; alas, all my 'bibles' are at the office so i'll check again on Monday)

Edited August 8, 2009 by SoftWater

[tgeezer]

I read this differently (and probably erroneously), but for what its worth:

You always find everything so funny, (but) keep the noise down a little could you.

(BTW, my dictionary at home only has ขำ as an adjective; alas, all my 'bibles' are at the office so i'll check again on Monday)

Is it an adjective meaning ลักษณะที่ชวนให้ชอบและรัก by any chance?

[SoftWater]

Is it an adjective meaning ลักษณะที่ชวนให้ชอบและรัก by any chance?

Not sure I quite get the connnotation of this "characteristic that invites love and laughter?"

From asking around a few friends, I feel there's two alternatives for

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

i. What is so funny about that? Could you keep the noise down

or

ii. You'll be amused by anything so much, (but) could you keep the noise down.

My friends, who are far more proficient than I at Thai, plump for i. Alas, I'm not convinced; personally I prefer ii.

From our discussion I think two things became clear - i. we need someone equally proficient in both Thai and English

and 2. we probably need more context. My friends felt that this sentence must be part of a dialogue in which it is clear that something in particular is being referred to as amusing, which is why they go for i.

To answer your question, I think ขำ is mostly used to refer to something's being amusing, or someone being amused by something, so it should be an adjective, not a verb, and hence I don't believe that it is synonymous with หัวเราะ which is more akin to the action/verb of laughing.

Having said all that, my level of proficiency at Thai is quite nicely shown up by examples like this, as I've been trying to figure it out since yesterday and am still none the wiser.

[tgeezer]

Is it an adjective meaning ลักษณะที่ชวนให้ชอบและรัก by any chanceNot sure I quite get the connnotation of this "characteristic that invites love and laughter?"

I am calling that 'attractive' for the moment, but I have only seen the two definitions and this example. I have seen on Google that it is used a lot in connection with cartoons and jokes, lightheartedness is an attractive characteristic, so maybe the meaning is in transit.

The question is about the meaning in this context, which is 'done and dusted' so this is really a side issue.

[yoot]

From Dr. Wit's dictionary:

ขำ (kum)

(ก., ว.) ขบขัน, ชวนให้ขอบ, คมสัน, คมคาย. adj. funny, amusing, amused, witty, attractive, cute, handsome. v. to feel amused.

หัวเราะ, หัวร่อ (hau-rau)

(ก.) อาการเปล่งเสียงยามรู้สึกขบขัน มีความร่าเริง หรือดีใจ. v. to laugh, to giggle, to cackle, to snicker, to titter, to snigger.

From RID:

ขำ ๑ ว. มีลักษณะหน้าตาคมชวนให้มอง เช่น งามขํา ดำขำ; ขบขัน เช่น นึกขํา.

หัวเราะ ก. เปล่งเสียงแสดงความขบขัน ดีใจ ชอบใจ เป็นต้น, ใช้เข้าคู่กับคํา

หัวไห้ เป็น หัวเราะหัวไห้ ก็มี, หัวร่อ ก็ว่า, (โบ) เขียนเป็น หวัวเราะ ก็มี.

ขำ is used as an adjective by RID, but I think in some context, it can be used as a verb as well.

หัวเราะ is always used as a verb. In some context, it can be used interchangeable with ขำ .

For example;Your friend is laughing, you might ask "หัวเราะอะไร" or "ขำอะไร" - What makes you laugh?, What makes you feel amused?

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

For this sentence, I would say the same as SoftWater got from his friends, "What is so funny about that? Could you keep the noise down."

For example;

While you are watching a comedy with your friend, your friend keep on laughing, although the funny part is over, you might say this to your friend ;

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น or ขำอะไรนักหนา - What is so funny (about that)?

If you feel annoyed, you might say "ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้างได้ไหม" - Could you keep the noise down.?

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

Thank you all for those responses. At the risk of seeming pedantic and carrying the questions to an extreme, I would like to turn the questions around and ask about how one expresses in Thai four different ideas surrounding humor:

1. To produce something humorous, i.e., to tell a joke or to perform a pratfall. This is an positive action to produce laughter in others.

2. To be funny or humorous. This is an adjective or "stative verb" in Thai which might describe the joke or the action itself, rather than the person producing the joke or action or the person hearing the joke or viewing the action. (Perhaps ตลก, น่าขัน, น่าขำ, น่าหัวเราะ)

3. To find something humorous. This is the "stative verb" describing the feeling of the person who witnesses the action or hears the joke.

4. To laugh. This is the intransitive action verb performed by the person finding something humorous. (Perhaps ขัน, หัวเราะ)

I believe that these are different concepts which find different expressions in English, and, I suspect, in Thai. My question is, how are these notions expressed in Thai. BTW, these questions are not limited to humor. They can be asked about any emotion.

As to the grammatical taxonomy, I make no representation as to either the Thai or English classification. My personal interest is in expression, not in categorization.

It could very well be that Thais use the same term for multiple uses, clarifying the expression by usage and context. Consider, for example, the various uses of "ตลก", "ขำ", and "หัวเราะ". Finally, for those who asked about the context of the sample sentence, the sentence came from Lexitron, totally without context.

Thanks again for your assistance on this question.

[SoftWater]

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

For this sentence, I would say the same as SoftWater got from his friends, "What is so funny about that? Could you keep the noise down."

For example;

While you are watching a comedy with your friend, your friend keep on laughing, although the funny part is over, you might say this to your friend ;

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น or ขำอะไรนักหนา - What is so funny (about that)?

If you feel annoyed, you might say "ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้างได้ไหม" - Could you keep the noise down.?

Thanks Yoot - this kind of contextual "example-in -use" solves the puzzle (at least for me).

I still can't quite figure the use of จะ in this context, but I suspect this is a point where analysis becomes fruitless.

Would I be correct in assuming that ขำอะไรนักหนา would be a bit less polite than ขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ?

Edited August 10, 2009 by SoftWater

[tgeezer]

From Dr. Wit's dictionary:

ขำ (kum)

(ก., ว.) ขบขัน, ชวนให้ขอบ, คมสัน, คมคาย. adj. funny, amusing, amused, witty, attractive, cute, handsome. v. to feel amused.

หัวเราะ, หัวร่อ (hau-rau)

(ก.) อาการเปล่งเสียงยามรู้สึกขบขัน มีความร่าเริง หรือดีใจ. v. to laugh, to giggle, to cackle, to snicker, to titter, to snigger.

From RID:

ขำ ๑ ว. มีลักษณะหน้าตาคมชวนให้มอง เช่น งามขํา ดำขำ; ขบขัน เช่น นึกขํา.

หัวเราะ ก. เปล่งเสียงแสดงความขบขัน ดีใจ ชอบใจ เป็นต้น, ใช้เข้าคู่กับคํา

หัวไห้ เป็น หัวเราะหัวไห้ ก็มี, หัวร่อ ก็ว่า, (โบ) เขียนเป็น หวัวเราะ ก็มี.

ขำ is used as an adjective by RID, but I think in some context, it can be used as a verb as well.

หัวเราะ is always used as a verb. In some context, it can be used interchangeable with ขำ .

For example;Your friend is laughing, you might ask "หัวเราะอะไร" or "ขำอะไร" - What makes you laugh?, What makes you feel amused?

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้าง

For this sentence, I would say the same as SoftWater got from his friends, "What is so funny about that? Could you keep the noise down."

For example;

While you are watching a comedy with your friend, your friend keep on laughing, although the funny part is over, you might say this to your friend ;

เธอจะขำอะไรมากมายขนาดนั้น or ขำอะไรนักหนา - What is so funny (about that)?

If you feel annoyed, you might say "ลดเสียงหัวเราะลงมาบ้างได้ไหม" - Could you keep the noise down.?

Thanks yoot, as I think the word has changed to mean funny but still retains its RID definition of 'attractive' until the RID updates by adding ขัน to the definition of ขำ

Is Dr.Wit (does he exist or is it a pun?) trying to do too much, what I mean is; is it possible for one word to have so many meanings and not become meaningless in Thai?

Edited August 10, 2009 by tgeezer

[oldsparrow]

Informal and similar meaning = ฮา

ขำ is used to describe specific thing/event but ฮา has somewhat broader meaning and can describe many things more than ขำ

ie.

ไปเที่ยวครั้งนี้ฮามาก = The holiday trip is full of funny thing. VS ไปเที่ยวครั้งนี้มีเรื่องขำมาก = There are many funny events in the holiday trip.

คนนี้ฮาดี = The guy is funny/capable of doing funny thing.

[meadish_sweetball]

The role of จะ in this sentence is interesting.

Does it perhaps help to signal that the question is rhetorical...? Not sure, because by contrasting it with the same sentence without จะ to my ear the meaning does not change - it just sounds more idiomatic and correct with จะ in there, so maybe we are just dealing with a set expression?

Any other thoughts?

Rikker earlier posted about the irrealis function of จะ, where it serves to denote situations which are not known to have occurred/hypothetical/conditional situations, but it does not seem to apply in this case.

[tgeezer]

Informal and similar meaning = ฮา

ขำ is used to describe specific thing/event but ฮา has somewhat broader meaning and can describe many things more than ขำ

ie.

ไปเที่ยวครั้งนี้ฮามาก = The holiday trip is full of funny thing. VS ไปเที่ยวครั้งนี้มีเรื่องขำมาก = There are many funny events in the holiday trip.

คนนี้ฮาดี = The guy is funny/capable of doing funny thing.

This is what makes Thai so difficult for self study, the dictionaries are not used by most people and most people appear to understand one another, or do they? often conversations seem to go well past the time I would have thought necessary to get the message accross, has anyone else noticed this?

The best way is to translate much more freely, ขำ has a positive meaning related to laughter, fun, and leave it at that.

Same for ฮา . Verbs are less of a problem; 'หัวเราะ' but even there, if it is in the wrong place; best to read ขัน ขบขน ขำ or ฮา

If you look up ฮา for example: ฮา ว. เสียงหัวเราะแสดงความขบขันหรือชอบใจ... (no problem there apart from ว. but then)..ของคนหมู่มาก ???? so, how can a sound possibly be a ว. ? of a group of people? forget it, get out the Mary Haas and discover that it means: imit. 1.the sound of laughter V.2. to laugh loudly 3. to express approval(with the voice, by clapping etc) none of which apply to this post so back to the definition which applies to every situation: laughter, fun and in this case 'fun'

As far as taking English and translating it into Thai, well that is a big challenge, and I suspect far too advanced for most of us, however, it might provide lots for Thai speakers to get their teeth into.

[oldsparrow]

Yes sir, lot of time with the local will help.

So, ฮา is the sound and also a common informal word for the meaning I mentioned. BTW, I think it come from English Aha! Ha Ha.

Yes, we talk more than the real point of conversation. It's also the way of communication, repeating stress the priority etc.

Talking on irrelevant point of light talk after the business topic is a way to check if the partner has more opinion on the point/want to know more or not.

ie.

A: My factory can't deliver the product on time. We will compensate this and that...... Please tell your boss to decide.

B: How about some discount instead?

A: The best we can do is......

B: Silent

A: I heard your son will go to the university this year?

B: Indeed, I don't know which one he can enter etc.

In this situation it's Thai way for A to conclude the business proporsal after he saw the body language of B. If B had more question B would return to the topic shortly. If not it mean B took the proporsal as it was for further consideration. Communication also includes social interaction not only the language.

[tgeezer]

To some extent that is the same for all languages, because people are the same the world over. As you say, I need to get with more Thai people, but is there conformity in ambiguity all around Bangkok? between those that use sms and those that don't, between students from upcountry and students from Bangkok, between shopworkers and factory owners? certainly not between farang and Thai. It may be that long dialogue is a journey from the general to the specific, not clarification; I don't know.

On this forum we all have different aims; learning as an adult is especially problematic; we already know a language and we want to communicate our thoughts yesterday, speaking for myself if I have anything important to say(not often, thankfully) I will do it in English or not at all. I have the time to look at dictionaries and am learning how to interpret them, it is like a puzzle. 'ฮา' ; the meaning is clear, but when it doesn't fit the context, I widen the scope of meaning. I know the seven sorts of words and apply them depending on the position of the word in the text. I think that I shall italicize words in which the meaning is loose in future.

ฮา is what is called an onomatopoeia, it mimics the sound of laughter and expresses mockery. If Thai people say ha ha ha when they laugh then I think that, if you are Thai, then you can claim it as all your own Thai borrows some English words without borrowing the meaning.

Edited August 11, 2009 by tgeezer