The Gething Reader

[SoftWater]

Thanks Simon. I have noted you are normally spot on with your answers, but would like to ask how confident you are with this one (was the use of 'think' rhetorical or deliberately to suggest uncertainty?)?

Would others support Simon's interpretation? I find it a bit counterintuitive.

Thanks.

[yoot]

Thanks Simon. I have noted you are normally spot on with your answers, but would like to ask how confident you are with this one (was the use of 'think' rhetorical or deliberately to suggest uncertainty?)?

Would others support Simon's interpretation? I find it a bit counterintuitive.

Thanks.

If I separate this sentence to "เขาจึงต้องการตู้หนังสือ", "เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชัก", "เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่ใหญ่หน่อย" would it makes sense to you?

Edited March 13, 2010 by yoot

[SoftWater]

Thanks Simon. I have noted you are normally spot on with your answers, but would like to ask how confident you are with this one (was the use of 'think' rhetorical or deliberately to suggest uncertainty?)?

Would others support Simon's interpretation? I find it a bit counterintuitive.

Thanks.

If I separate this sentence to "เขาจึงต้องการตู้หนังสือ", "เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชัก", "เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่ใหญ่หน่อย" would it makes sense to you?

The first and the second yes. But not the third. What does it mean please?

[yoot]

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่ใหญ่หน่อย" - He wants a slightly big workdesk.

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชัก" - He wants a workdesk with drawers.

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชักและใหญ่หน่อย" - He wants a slightly big workdesk with drawers.

Edited March 13, 2010 by yoot

[SoftWater]

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่ใหญ่หน่อย" - He wants a slightly big workdesk.

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชัก" - He wants a workdesk with drawers.

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชักและใหญ่หน่อย" - He wants a slightly big workdesk with drawers.

Thanks Yoot, I think I see, the structure is a reduced form of X ที่ a and ที่ b', where the second ที่ is removed for the sake of redundancy? (I mistakenly thought ใหญ่หน่อย must be modifying the nearest noun).

Also ใหญ่หน่อย doesn't appear as a compound in any of my dictionaries, I guess 'a slightly big workdesk' is a desk that's 'big enough but not too big'? or maybe in colloquial English we might say 'a big-ish workdesk'.

Edited March 13, 2010 by SoftWater

[kokesaat]

เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่ใหญ่หน่อย" What does it mean please?

I'd say, "He needs a bigger desk" or "He needs a desk that's slightly large". If it was multiple choice test, I'd go with the second.

[SimonN]

Also ใหญ่หน่อย doesn't appear as a compound in any of my dictionaries, I guess 'a slightly big workdesk' is a desk that's 'big enough but not too big'? or maybe in colloquial English we might say 'a big-ish workdesk'.

Reading from the beginning of the chapter, it mentions that the house is fully furnished. Therefore one would assume that it already has table/desk. To accomadate all of John's books and documents he needs a desk that is slightly bigger and has drawers.

"ใหญ่หน่อย" is a combination of "ใหญ่/big" + "หน่อย/slightly/a little"

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชักและใหญ่หน่อย" - "He wants a workdesk that has drawers and is slightly bigger (than the table/desk already in the house).

[SoftWater]

Also ใหญ่หน่อย doesn't appear as a compound in any of my dictionaries, I guess 'a slightly big workdesk' is a desk that's 'big enough but not too big'? or maybe in colloquial English we might say 'a big-ish workdesk'.

Reading from the beginning of the chapter, it mentions that the house is fully furnished. Therefore one would assume that it already has table/desk. To accomadate all of John's books and documents he needs a desk that is slightly bigger and has drawers.

"ใหญ่หน่อย" is a combination of "ใหญ่/big" + "หน่อย/slightly/a little"

"เขาต้องการโต๊ะทำงานที่มีลิ้นชักและใหญ่หน่อย" - "He wants a workdesk that has drawers and is slightly bigger (than the table/desk already in the house).

Good point. Thanks Simon, I think that nails it.

Cheers for putting in the effort to clear up my confusions.

Sw

[SimonN]

เวลาคนไทยจะพูดถึงตนเองกับพระเจ้าอยู่หัวและพระราชินี จะต้องเรียกตนเองโดยใช้ส่วนที่สูงที่สุดของร่างกายคือหัวแทน

I get the first part...."When Thai people refer to themselves and the King or the Queen", but any way I try on the second part doesn't make sense......something about using the highest part of their body instead in referring to themselves (and that just doesn't compute).

"กระหม่อม" means "the crown of the head".

When addressing the Queen and King "กระหม่อม" can be used as a first person pronoun (I/me).

Perhaps this helps solve this conundrum.

[kokesaat]

Lesson 40 is a story about spirit houses (ศาลพระภูมิ). In the story, the demon ท้าวพลี is killed by the เทวดา. The demons friends take ท้าวพลี's body back to a Brahman priest (พราหมณ์). The priest subsequently:

พราหมณ์ผู้นั้นทำให้กลับชีวิตขึ้นมาอีก

I guess literally you could say that "the priest brought him (ท้าวพลี) back to life", but I wonder if a more appropriate (in an Asian mind) translation would be: "The Brahman priest reincarnated him."

Any suggestions?

By the way, for those who wonder what's behind the spirit houses in Thailand, the story at lesson 40 offers some interesting insight.

[kokesaat]

Here's an mp3 clip of the sentence from lesson 40 if anyone is interested:

THD640_1.mp3

[kokesaat]

Lesson 42 of the Gething Reader discusses the river systems in Thailand. The use of the ๆ following the word แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยา threw me for a loop. The word is at the end of what I consider a sentence. The speaker's voice clearly full stops at that point. Only to continue the next sentence with แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยา again (because of the ๆ).

My western brain is wired to think in terms of sentences. It appears I'll have to do some rewiring when I read Thai.

ส่วนอีกสายหนึ่งแยกไปทางตะวันออก แล้วเฉียงลงทางใต้ได้ชื่อว่า แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยาๆ ไหลผ่านจังหวัดอยุธยาและรวมกับแม่น้ำป่าสักที่นั่น ไหลผ่านกรุงเทพฯ ธนบุรีก่อนออกอ่าวไทยที่จังหวัดสมุทปราการหรือปากน้ำ

THD642_1.mp3

[bhoydy]

Lesson 42 of the Gething Reader discusses the river systems in Thailand. The use of the ๆ following the word แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยา threw me for a loop. The word is at the end of what I consider a sentence. The speaker's voice clearly full stops at that point. Only to continue the next sentence with แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยา again (because of the ๆ).

My western brain is wired to think in terms of sentences. It appears I'll have to do some rewiring when I read Thai.

ส่วนอีกสายหนึ่งแยกไปทางตะวันออก แล้วเฉียงลงทางใต้ได้ชื่อว่า แม่น้ำเจ้าพระยาๆ ไหลผ่านจังหวัดอยุธยาและรวมกับแม่น้ำป่าสักที่นั่น ไหลผ่านกรุงเทพฯ ธนบุรีก่อนออกอ่าวไทยที่จังหวัดสมุทปราการหรือปากน้ำ

That's interesting, so if you are going to continue talking about the same thing in your next sentence you can use the ๆ (mai yamok) repetition symbol.

[SoftWater]

Chapter 31 introduces us to a passenger in a taxi, who notices this about the driver:

คนขับค่อนข้างมีอายุ

The word ค่อน is new to me. Lexitron defines it as

• [ADV] almost; nearly; mostly; approximately S.เกือบเต็ม Ex. พอเขาสามารถหาขี้ยางได้ครึ่งค่อนตะกร้า เขาก็หยุดพักเหนื่อย
• [V] carp; complain; cavil; criticize; ridicule; revile; satirize S.เหน็บแนม, บ่นว่า, เสียดสี A.ชม Ex. หล่อนค่อนพี่สาวว่าเอาตุ๊กตามาเล่น แต่เอาเข้าจริงเธอกลับเอามาเล่นเอง
• [V] incline; tend S.มีแนวโน้ม, เอียง Ex. เขาค่อนไปทางชาตินิยม(NECTEC Lexitron 2 TH-EN)

This is leading me to believe the meaning is something along the lines of:

The driver was approaching old age / The driver was getting on in years...

What's confusing me is not only the new word but the use of ข้าง - which I've only ever understood as a prepoposition of spatial location - in this context. This leads me to doubt my interpretation.

Any thoughts most welcome.

Cheers

Sw

Edited August 2, 2010 by SoftWater

[kikenyoy]

sw,

ค่อนข้าง together means "rather" or "somewhat"

[kokesaat]

"Chapter 31 introduces us to a passenger in a taxi, who notices this about the driver:

คนขับค่อนข้างมีอายุ"

My New Age (Thaiways Publication) Dictionary shows ค่อนข้าง as 'rather, fairly, comparatively. I thought that fit in quite well in the reader's description of the taxi driver. My take was "The (taxi) driver was rather old......"

ค่อน - v., adv. to find fault, to carp at, more than half, almost full, rather, to cut

ข้าง - n., prep. side, position, group, one of a pair, next to

I suppose 'rather old' is rather subjective......but the mental picture I see of the taxi driver is someone about 50-ish.

Glad to see someone else enjoying the Gething Reader series. What a treasure!

[SoftWater]

^Ah, thanks. I have that dictionary, but hadn't checked it. The folly of relying on easy digital resources...

[SimonN]

The folly of relying on easy digital resources...

I'm not sure which digital resources you use, SW, but "ค่อนข้าง" can be found in numerous Online dictionaries, including TL.com, SEAlang, T2E, guru.sanook, Lexitron, Longdo and the RID.

[SoftWater]

So it is, Simon, thanks for pointing that out:

ค่อนข้าง

[AUX] rather; somewhat S.ออกจะ, ค่อนข้างจะ Ex. วัฒนธรรมของในแต่ละสังคมจะมีการกำหนดเอาไว้ค่อนข้างเป็นระบบระเบียบ

(NECTEC Lexitron 2 TH-EN)

Must have been having a senior moment, probably thought I'd looked it up but hadn't.

While we're (I'm) on Ch 31, there's something else puzzling me. The passenger asks the driver:

รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเช่าเขา

I get the sense of the question to be: "Is this car your own or leased (hired/rented)?"

However, I'm puzzled by the function of เขา at the end. What is it doing there? Wouldn't the sentence be grammatically and semantically complete without it? Is it just a 'rhetorical flourish'??

Thanks as always for any help.

Sw

Edited August 3, 2010 by SoftWater

[kokesaat]

"รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเช่าเขา"

My Thai teacher explained it this way: "Is this your own vehicle (taxi) or are you leasing another's (vehicle)?"

From thai-language.com

1c. เขา khaoR [a (singular or plural) possessive particle] another's; others'; other people's (+ Noun)

I suppose you could expand on the sentence and say, "รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเป็นเช่าของเขา"

[SoftWater]

That's what I thought, but I wasnt' sure how the construction worked. I get it now. Thanks!

Sw

[Tod Daniels]

There are some good questions, both asked and answered, in this quite interesting thread. I'm glad it's going. ..

I usually go back and read the chapter/lesson referred to by a poster to see if I can figure out the answer too. So great practice both ways..

In regards to the last coupla a posts in this thread by "SoftWater";

I've found the thai word ของ is a word that is frequently omitted in thai sentence constructs both written and in colloquially spoken thai. Often it leaves me puzzled, because (at least to me) ของ is a 100% possessive (ownership) marker, making it easy for me to understand who owns what, especially in ambiguous situations or when talking about other peoples' possessions..

I’ve found this is especially true when two different people have or possess two different things in a single thai sentence construct. More times than not one of the ของ’s is left out, either by using the word เอง after the pronoun or frequently just the object and the pronoun to denote whose it is.

Although you guys are far above my level in thai; I think what makes this รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเช่าเขา more of a difficult sentence to back translate (although you hit it right outta the gate) IS; first the speaker used ของเราเอง (ของ; marking a possession, followed by เรา; typically we but also a second person pronoun you, and then เอง; as in that person's alone), but the rest of the sentence which follows หรือ, they only used เช่าเขา (เช่า; rent, and เขา; him, her, they), and at least to me, there was no apparent word denoting possession like ของ.

While I didn't know the answer and thought it was just ของ being omitted in colloquial thai; in hindsight, I think “kokesaat” hit it on the head with the word เขา also carrying the meaning as a singular/plural possessive particle, hence it already (at least in this case, denotes possession) making ของ not needed in the construct.

As an aside, some of the chapters in the Gething Reader early on seem to have questions after the story to gauge comprehension, but it doesn't appear that they all do. Does anyone know if there are questions to each chapter somewhere in the files? I haven't downloaded or looked at them all.

Thanx, again for the very interesting thread. ..

[kokesaat]

"As an aside, some of the chapters in the Gething Reader early on seem to have questions after the story to gauge comprehension, but it doesn't appear that they all do. Does anyone know if there are questions to each chapter somewhere in the files? I haven't downloaded or looked at them all."

I think the questions end somewhere around lesson 26 (about half-way through the course). By the time I hit that point, my village pharmacist/teacher knew what sort of questions to ask after I finished reading each lesson.

As for the ?elective? use of ของ, I sometimes sense that Thais use ของ the way we (English speakers) use 'of' (Where is the home of John? บ้านของจอห์นอยู่ที่ไหน). A much easier way is to say, 'Where's John's home?/บ้านจอห์นอยู่ที่ไหน or บ้านจอห์นอยู่ไหน) I don't know the if there are any rules for omitting the word ของ, but as you get into the second half of Gething's Reader, you'll find more cases of omitting the word.

[SoftWater]

As an aside, some of the chapters in the Gething Reader early on seem to have questions after the story to gauge comprehension, but it doesn't appear that they all do. Does anyone know if there are questions to each chapter somewhere in the files? I haven't downloaded or looked at them all.

Thanx, again for the very interesting thread. ..

In the original book form there are exercises after each text all the way through to the last chapter. However, they're not very sophisticated. They don't capture the kind of detailed worries that we bring up here.

I don't think these extra pages have been uploaded on to the website.

Edited August 4, 2010 by SoftWater

[Peppy]

"รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเช่าเขา"

My Thai teacher explained it this way:  "Is this your own vehicle (taxi) or are you leasing another's (vehicle)?"

From thai-language.com

1c.    เขา    khaoR    [a (singular or plural) possessive particle] another's; others'; other people's (+ Noun)

I suppose you could expand on the sentence and say, "รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเป็นเช่าของเขา"

I think you have the general gist of the meaning of the original sentence, but I would change your sentence a little: "รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเช่ารถของเขา" (without "เป็น" before the verb "เช่า").

My understanding of the original, though, was "รถนี่เป็นของเราเองหรือเช่ามาจากเขา" (เช่ารถของเขามา), with "เขา" functioning as the object of "เช่า", rather than as a possessive adjective.

I think it's kind of analogous to "ยืมเขา", where the preposition "from" (จาก) is assumed, and therefore left out.

[onebir]

The original website is gone, but fortunately it was archived here:

https://siamwestdc.com/thaireader-UH/index.htm