Merchant Of Death To Learn Fate Today

[jayceenik]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Do you have any idea what he is accused of? What about the liberties of the thousands he alleged to be responsible for the death of? However I don't see why usa has to continue to be the worlds self appointed police, the UN should really get there finger out and take control.

Being an American, I don't understand why we have to be policing the world either. I wish the rest of the world could take care of themselves and stop relying so much on the USA.

It's not so much about the world relying on the USA as the American Empire insisting it has a God-given mission to rule the world. Ever heard of PNAC?

[chiangdan]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

Stop waving your little flag around buddy.

We are not anti-American. We just don't like how the Americans meddle in affairs all around the world and use their clout to do whatever they please.

The US only entered WW2 when they themselves felt threatened. There was absolutely nothing altruistic about it, so get off your high horse.

If they'd entered the war when they should have it would have been a much shorter war.

So very true the US refused to come and help thier allies who had already been fighting for 5 years they said it was not thier war. Only came in when they got kicked towards the end. The enemy was already on the ground and you kicked him whilst he was down. The US was not there for the long haul so don't try and say you saved the world. Anyway we are getting off the topic at hand.

Edited August 11, 2009 by chiangdan

[OzMick]

I find interesting the fine definitions between sting and entrapment. In one case, a gold miner from Kalgoorlie (AUS) found an add for a Mexican hotel on a paedophile web-site, which said they could supply children to your specifications. He booked a room with 2 girls between the ages of 8-10.

Can't fly direct to Mexico from Aus, so he went via L.A. where he was arrested IN THE TRANSIT LOUNGE by the FBI, who run the add. Found guilty as he had paid a deposit, with his Amex no less.

In Thailand, if a police officer offers to sell you drugs, and you take them in your hand, you are guilty of possession. Bleeding heart liberals will tell you this is morally wrong, but it is also a cheap and effective way of apprehending persons with criminal intent.

Victor Bout was attempting to sell surface-to-air missiles. The shoulder launched versions are ineffective against military jets, better against helicopters, and far too good when it comes to civilian aircraft in take-off or landing. The possession of such a weapon is illegal in every country, perhaps not in combat zones.

When it comes to stopping some-one flogging these to all and sundry (hey FARC are nice guys) I'm all for whatever works. If politicaly correct extradition doesn't, next meeting blow his brains out

Do you have one? Laverda I mean

Had for many years. 1974 3C 1000 with Slater Bros mods No1492. Flat mate had a SF2 750, went to sea 6 months of the year and left me the keys. We had a pair of Guzzis too, mine a 500 Monza, his a Le Mans 2. Heady days!

[boggzzy]

I hope he manages to fight the charges and is set free.

Given politics however, who knows how the court case will go.

Do you have any idea what he is accused of? What about the liberties of the thousands he alleged to be responsible for the death of? However I don't see why usa has to continue to be the worlds self appointed police, the UN should really get there finger out and take control.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with selling arms.

If it was, let's drag US, UK, Germany, Russia, China, and a whole lot more countries infront of an international court and convict all the politicians approving it.

Seeing it happen yet?

Fact of the matter is that the case brought up to get him extradited is a bogus one. It's not even on the level of getting Capone for tax-evasion, it is much lower.

They are actually charging him with intent - no deal in writing was ever made, he only agreed to meet and possibly sell - arms to a 'Terrorist group', that was nothing more than American Agents posing as South American representatives of one of the many militias in the region.

So it was an entrapment that never even went into conclusion.

He is a merchant of arms and in a true free world he would be allowed to sell to anyone and any country he wishes.

you ara an absolute moron...been in the land of smiles far too long. how can you condone terrorosm.to group the world powers as the same as him well the mind boggles

[Loaded]

So Victor Bout, we are led to believe, made contacts with world leaders, sold them arms and had an 'air force' of 50 planes dispatching arms around the world. One second of brain activity tells me he would need to have an organization as large as an air arm to complete this and connections all the way to prime minister/ president level. There is no evidence that this was the case.

So, a far larger game is being played out here. Thailand hasn't slapped the US in the face, it would never dare because of the consequences, in fact Thailand is a bit player in this game.

Independent Thai judiciary! - I couldn't stop laughing.

[rwhoov]

So FARC is not a terrorist organization; it is a political one. By that definition, the Muslims planting bombs in southern Thailand are not terrorists either. Can't have it both ways. The only difference I can see is that FARC finances its operations by kidnapping and drug production.

[OzMick]

Isn't it a little ironic that in the same thread the US is lambasted as interfering in other countries affairs, and for not doing so in WWII until they were attacked.

Also that the US is a major weapons dealer, yet the reason the allies in WWII were doing as well as they were was largely due to the munitions being supplied by the same economic superpower.

The US manufactures some of the best weapons available, proved in a couple of Iraq comparison tests. Billions of Iraqi oil dollars ( which would have been much better spent improving Iraq) only bought a false sense of security. If the US sells these to friendly governments, they are merchants of death; if they don't they are trying to rule the world.

We live in a world were the US spends more on its military than the next 7 (?) countries combined, and most of those are allies. Yes I know China falsifies/hides its military budget. Occasionally they use it to kick some butt and enforce their point of view. Learn to live with it, you don't have to like it. All the European nations with any go to them had their own little empires, and most were pretty nasty to the occupied.

The US sets high standards, and mostly lives up to them. Would the same be said if another of the would be nations had the same power.

I also have to comment on the US trying to break down Swiss numbered banking a/c laws. These are a haven for white collar criminals, drug dealers and arms merchants, and the first serious breach of the silence resulted in a number of Germans being caught. Several EU countries are supporting the elimination of tax havens, but hey it's a better earner than cuckoo clocks.

[Loaded]

So FARC is not a terrorist organization; it is a political one. By that definition, the Muslims planting bombs in southern Thailand are not terrorists either. Can't have it both ways. The only difference I can see is that FARC finances its operations by kidnapping and drug production.

And the US and the UK finance its operations by occupying countries with lots of oil. 1 million Iraqis dead since we 'liberated' them from the tyranny of Sadam.

[timekeeper]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

if you want to quote US history Ernie, you should remember that if it wasn't for the French you boys would still be singing Rule Britannia

[grantbkk]

It would be interesting to track current purchases made by members of the court, government and police involved in this case. Any new luxury cars, homes, jewelery and investments may cause red flags in a developed country. TIT

[CHINWA]

USA is very close to economic and maybe even all-out collapse USSR style. The debts on all levels (consumers, US government, municipalities, states, big banks) are just so huge and imperial overstretch is making things even worse. There is no way USA is able to continue that superpower game much longer. I'd give one year max before real SHTF happens big time. Given the rather aggressive nature of Americans (meaning up yours and bang bang! , all bets are off. Good luck Americans, you'll need every bit of it soon...

This now so called Great Recession could turn into real bad depression real fast and that is scary.

Ha ha! Your joking right? What a pile of absolute drivel. lol Check back with me in a year.

I'm not American but, I have to agree with you and share the laugh on the comment made by Tim

[Thai at Heart]

Its only one way for him: extradition. It will happen sooner or later as US is much stronger on the ground in Thailand than Russia.

Do you want to say that if "US is much stronger on the ground in Thailand than Russia", it means that CIA and FBI can do whatever they want in Thailand and give orders to Thai government? Thai government has never obeyed orders from the US.

Thailand government is clever enough to balance between Russia and US.

US is the self appointed ruler of the world and they think they can do what ever they want where ever they want to who ever they want. Good on you thailand for standing up and not being intimidated by this bully. They will want thier revenge tho.

This is an interesting problem. If the US/CIA really gets a burr up it's backside about this, it wouldn't be too difficult to work out what their revenge to be. How many regiemes has the CIA been involved in changing over the years?

[emancipationthailand]

Since the topic caught relatively nice attention, if the readers suspect if there's a propaganda to discredit the effort to catch this international terrorist in Thailand, Please google on Ullrich Wolfgang's case with Thailand years ago. My previous post was totally censor. .......... There aren't even any explanations ......

Since i believe nobody saw my rep ~

Ullrich Wolfgang + Democrat + Sanan ^^ got 1

Loophole could keep Thailand from deporting Wolfgang Ullrich

No extradition treaty with Germany

Wolfgang Ullrich remains in Thai prison, but it is unknown how much longer that will be the case.

Ullrich’s present court case convened at 9.00 a.m. on 17 January 2000, with his lawyers questioning the Foreign Affairs Office prosecutor’s case against the 55 year old German defendant.

The criminal case was registered on 15 December 1999, accusing the defendant and others of collectively misappropriating donated funds in Germany for personal use. The extortion includes membership dues and other funds from people who donated to the German Wildlife Preservation Assistance Association and the European Continent Preservation Assistance Association.

Ullrich had his lawyer deny the charges and requested the court consider the fact that Thailand and Germany do not have an extradition treaty, purportedly due to the fact Germany is not interested in acquiring such treaties with what Ullrich’s lawyers termed “under-developed countries”.

In addition, the Thai government is being asked to consider not sending Ullrich back to Germany, using the matter as reason for the two countries to come to terms to create a criminal extradition treaty.

Ullrich’s lawyer also denies the prosecution’s charges, stating that the prosecutor has a lack of supporting evidence. Ullrich’s lawyer also suggested charges are brought against the prosecutor, and requested the defendant, who has already been questioned through an interpreter, be released.

The prosecution petitioned the court to postpone deciding the case due to the absence of witnesses from the Foreign Ministry, who are currently engaged in other urgent matters preventing their presence at the trial.

Ullrich’s lawyer specified further that the defendant has already been held in custody for too long, declaring a postponement is not warranted.

At that point the court adjourned and is scheduled to re-convene at 9.00 a.m. on 3 February 2000.

http://www.pattayamail.com/338/news.htm

Edited August 12, 2009 by emancipationthailand

[brahmburgers]

i find it strange, for the last century USA have been selling arms, or even giving them away to the side they thought more righteuos than the other, in reality, they supplied the people they thought they could get the most out of. U cant leave the uk, dutch, german, japanese and many countires out of this, but one russian sels a few pop guns and bang, he's f----d. Come on US, give him a break, aint it true that the US even made contracts for him to sell his bad gear?????

"ask not for whom the bell tolls, as it tolls for thee"

or, to hijack Hemingway's poetic license and relate it to weaponry, "ask not who sold the bullet or missile which shot down the plane with your family on board, as it's a moot point."

Actually, it's not a moot point.

Granted, many countries worldwide sell weapons. Indeed, Israel is at the vanguard regarding relatively smaller weapons, their designers coming up with excellent innovations.

The Americans in particular have made mistakes in their arms peddling history, though much the same can be said of the other countries enmeshed in the trade.

The Ruskie dealer can be compared to a thug who comes in to your neighborhood to sell automatic weapons. You can say, "what's the big deal? We have other, bigger dealers who have been selling the same (and larger) weapons for decades. So this Russion punk comes here to sell similar weapons to the gangs, mai pen rai."

Would that same person also surmise: "If my daughter is rendered quadriplegic by a bullet bought from a big time dealer, of from a scruffy Ruskie, what's the difference?"

Here's the difference. Though we can acknowledge the US and others are big time arms dealers, we can't do a heck of a lot to mitigate that. However, it may be possible (for citizens using judicial processes) to shut down some of the dozens of smaller dealers.

Back to your neighborhood analogy: if the there are a couple stores selling automatic weapons (perhaps with background checks), then that's bad enough. However, if those stores are competing with dozens of freelance gun sellers roaming the streets, then the problem of too many weapons in your nieghborhood is exacerbated - is it not?

BTW, as an American, I can say unequivically; the US will not hold a grudge against Thailand or its authorities for this recent turn of events. The US is too big (in a magninamous way) to stoop to petty grudge-fests. The Ruskie dealer will be nabbed, as he should be.

[Carib]

If we talk about weapons in the US it is always said that weapons don't kill, but people do. And we have the right to bear..blah blah blah. But when talking about an alleged dealer, it is the weapons that kill.... something doesn't add up. But that is always the case if it suits them.

[emancipationthailand]

The # 1 webboard on Thai Politic, Pantip, was places almost total censorship on this topic !!!

[marsteele]

Its only one way for him: extradition. It will happen sooner or later as US is much stronger on the ground in Thailand than Russia.

Do you want to say that if "US is much stronger on the ground in Thailand than Russia", it means that CIA and FBI can do whatever they want in Thailand and give orders to Thai government? Thai government has never obeyed orders from the US.

Thailand government is clever enough to balance between Russia and US.

US is the self appointed ruler of the world and they think they can do what ever they want where ever they want to who ever they want. Good on you thailand for standing up and not being intimidated by this bully. They will want thier revenge tho.

This is an interesting problem. If the US/CIA really gets a burr up it's backside about this, it wouldn't be too difficult to work out what their revenge to be. How many regiemes has the CIA been involved in changing over the years?

Quite a few actually, even brought down the the labour party in Australia in the 70's because they would do as the US said and they are allies. (made a movie about it "The falcon and the snowman.) As to bringing down the thai government and getting there own self appointed people in power would be easy. Just start throwing around a few million US dollars to the Yellow and red shirts and they will soon turn thier alliance and bring down the government. Just remember people that the rest of the world is just another state owned and controled by the US dictatorship.

[dale8]

Hello, it looks like Thailand has set a limit on their cooperation with the US. It is not clear as to whether Thailand will try to prosecute or extradite him to a different country. It is sad about all the killing from the weapons of the people that can buy them in the poor countries of the world, and many countries have supplied arms so I do not see what is more bad as there is to much guilt.

[Lancelot]

USA is very close to economic and maybe even all-out collapse USSR style. The debts on all levels (consumers, US government, municipalities, states, big banks) are just so huge and imperial overstretch is making things even worse. There is no way USA is able to continue that superpower game much longer. I'd give one year max before real SHTF happens big time. Given the rather aggressive nature of Americans (meaning up yours and bang bang! , all bets are off. Good luck Americans, you'll need every bit of it soon...

This now so called Great Recession could turn into real bad depression real fast and that is scary.

Ha ha! Your joking right? What a pile of absolute drivel. lol Check back with me in a year.

I'm not American but, I have to agree with you and share the laugh on the comment made by Tim

Tim is one smart dude and very perceptive. I've learned from a reliable source that USA Inc. will cease to exist at 1300 hours, January 4, 2010. The source did admit that the margin of error was about 10 minutes either way

Edited August 12, 2009 by Lancelot

[Jazzmaster]

Epic move Thailand....way to cement your standing deep in lower 3rd World Status....as if allowing your domestic terrorists to close an International airport wasn't enough, now supporting major arms dealers that help to destroy your fellow 3rd world countries and their people...Amazing Thailand, what a joke!!!

[kumsamut]

I feel Thai should handover him to the US because it might lead to Bin Ladden and many more terrorists.

[animatic]

It's simple the behind the scenes price just went up.

Or was never met and this is a next to last negotiating move.

There is an appeal and there is the pastrybox in another form.

As individuals bribery is not allowed, as nations aid is given and aid is withdrawn.

In this case there will be an invisible quid pro quo and things will move on.

Brahmburgers argues several good points.

Edited August 12, 2009 by animatic

[marsteele]

Epic move Thailand....way to cement your standing deep in lower 3rd World Status....as if allowing your domestic terrorists to close an International airport wasn't enough, now supporting major arms dealers that help to destroy your fellow 3rd world countries and their people...Amazing Thailand, what a joke!!!

What did you expect Thailand to do? Bow down and become another whipping boy for the US? The man had comitted no offence in Thailand or the USA. There is no evidence to say he is an arms dealer. Good on Thailand for standing against the trash they call the USA they have proved they are a better country than the US by far.

[animatic]

Congratulations to all the "anti-American" posters on this board. You should all be diplomats from your respective home countries.

Do you REALLY think all the facts have been disclosed in this case ? Since you don't know what the hel_l you're talking about why don't you keep your phuckin mouth shut till you DO know the facts, and can make a fair judgement. They ought to call you "robin", you're all mouth and ass.

For all you people who hate the U.S. so much. you probably aren't old enough to remember, but if the U.S. hadn't entered World War 2 when they did, you'd all be speaking German. I'm old enough to remember, I was there.

Is all this anti-American bullshit you're spreading in any way related to the original post.....I don't think so,

Stop waving your little flag around buddy.

We are not anti-American. We just don't like how the Americans meddle in affairs all around the world and use their clout to do whatever they please.

The US only entered WW2 when they themselves felt threatened. There was absolutely nothing altruistic about it, so get off your high horse.

If they'd entered the war when they should have it would have been a much shorter war.

So very true the US refused to come and help thier allies who had already been fighting for 5 years they said it was not their war. Only came in when they got kicked towards the end. The enemy was already on the ground and you kicked him whilst he was down. The US was not there for the long haul so don't try and say you saved the world. Anyway we are getting off the topic at hand.

Excuse me but 1939 to 1941 is not 5 years.

Post Pearl Harbor American could have ignored Europe and just fought in the Pacific, but they didn't.

Of course what this all has to do with One Arms Dealer trying to sell Surface to Air Missiles

to neo-communist insurrgents in Columbia really makes little sense.

Has nothing to do with reality, and a lot to do with politics and hyperbole.

And few note this was a DEA Sting, these weapons would be used to shoot down anti-drug cartel,

anti-cocaine field/lab inderdiction aircraft and likely occasionally used on VIP vehicles and such,

by the same amoral <deleted> that held Ingrid Betancourt hostage for 7 years.

Regardless if legalizing it is a better choice, less in the country is also a good choice.

As well as limiting the power of the murderous cartles at the same time.

Bout is not a hero, nor a nice guy, he is an amoral SOB, and I have no sorrow for his plight.

[Lancelot]

What did you expect Thailand to do? Bow down and become another whipping boy for the US? The man had comitted no offence in Thailand or the USA. There is no evidence to say he is an arms dealer. Good on Thailand for standing against the trash they call the USA they have proved they are a better country than the US by far.

Actually I am starting to come around to your way of thinking and agree with your logic. If a person commits 10 murders in Sweeden and then moves to Thailand, why should the Thais extradite him?

Maybe the Ruskie dealer could pay a little tea money, be set free -and to show his appreciation- sell a few toys to the nice patriots in Southern Thailand.

The best argument against allowing free lance arms merchants is a five minute conversation with a few Thai Visa posters

Edited August 12, 2009 by Lancelot

[Orac]

What did you expect Thailand to do? Bow down and become another whipping boy for the US? The man had comitted no offence in Thailand or the USA. There is no evidence to say he is an arms dealer. Good on Thailand for standing against the trash they call the USA they have proved they are a better country than the US by far.

Actually I am starting to come around to your way of thinking and agree with your logic. If a person commits 10 murders in Sweeden and then moves to Thailand, why should the Thais extradite him?

Maybe the Ruskie dealer could pay a little tea money, be set free -and to show his appreciation- sell a few toys to the nice patriots in Southern Thailand.

The best argument against allowing free lance arms merchants is a five minute conversation with a few Thai Visa posters

Using your example above if someone had commited 10 murders in Sweden and then moved to Thailand it would be perfectly legal to extradite him to Sweden as murder is a crime in both Sweden and Thailand. To compare this to the current situation if someone had commited 10 murders in Sweden and had then moved to Thailand I would assume the Thai courts would not allow him to be extradited to the USA if he wasn't a US citizen or murdered a US citizen.

[RickBradford]

Post Pearl Harbor American could have ignored Europe and just fought in the Pacific, but they didn't.

Yes, they could have, but it would have been pretty dumb of them since Germany declared war on the U.S. on Dec 11, 1941, four days after Pearl Harbor...

[Thai at Heart]

What did you expect Thailand to do? Bow down and become another whipping boy for the US? The man had comitted no offence in Thailand or the USA. There is no evidence to say he is an arms dealer. Good on Thailand for standing against the trash they call the USA they have proved they are a better country than the US by far.

Actually I am starting to come around to your way of thinking and agree with your logic. If a person commits 10 murders in Sweeden and then moves to Thailand, why should the Thais extradite him?

Maybe the Ruskie dealer could pay a little tea money, be set free -and to show his appreciation- sell a few toys to the nice patriots in Southern Thailand.

The best argument against allowing free lance arms merchants is a five minute conversation with a few Thai Visa posters

Umm, as for the murders in Sweden, it might because they want to be part of the civilised world.

This situation is a more complicated issue. He sells to anyone, which is obviously not part of the larger plan of the US nor it should be said, many other countries. I wonder if he would sell to Chechen separatists. We don't know what other things other than arms that he could be able to get his hands on to supply to all and sundry. I think he was allowed to operate until his arms started pitching up too frequently in places where they could be used against American forces.

Politics and freedom fighter versus terrorist is a very mobile issue. Lest we forget some American politicians and well known trade unionists blatant support for some rather dodgy organisations.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-...knighthood.html

http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/feature...ein-269811.html

[Lancelot]

Umm, as for the murders in Sweden, it might because they want to be part of the civilised world.

Ummmmmm, maybe.

This situation is a more complicated issue. He sells to anyone, which is obviously not part of the larger plan of the US nor it should be said, many other countries. I wonder if he would sell to Chechen separatists. We don't know what other things other than arms that he could be able to get his hands on to supply to all and sundry. I think he was allowed to operate until his arms started pitching up too frequently in places where they could be used against American forces.

Maybe if he sold to the Chechens, the Russians would take him out without due process. Its not only the US that can play hard ball.

Politics and freedom fighter versus terrorist is a very mobile issue. Lest we forget some American politicians and well known trade unionists blatant support for some rather dodgy organisations.

Correct, the US is not perfect. If we look closely, we just might find a few "dodgy" institutions in every country

[Thai at Heart]

Umm, as for the murders in Sweden, it might because they want to be part of the civilised world.

Ummmmmm, maybe.

This situation is a more complicated issue. He sells to anyone, which is obviously not part of the larger plan of the US nor it should be said, many other countries. I wonder if he would sell to Chechen separatists. We don't know what other things other than arms that he could be able to get his hands on to supply to all and sundry. I think he was allowed to operate until his arms started pitching up too frequently in places where they could be used against American forces.

Maybe if he sold to the Chechens, the Russians would take him out without due process. Its not only the US that can play hard ball.

Politics and freedom fighter versus terrorist is a very mobile issue. Lest we forget some American politicians and well known trade unionists blatant support for some rather dodgy organisations.

Correct, the US is not perfect. If we look closely, we just might find a few "dodgy" institutions in every country

In this situation, the US definitely hasn't played hardball. They rather naively left the issue to a Thai court. I am amazed they didn't just run him straight to the airport and head straight to the US.