Hostility Towards Farang Women?

[Sir Burr]

At the risk of getting my legs bitten off, I'm going to dip a toe into shark-infested waters.

It cannot be denied that there is an increased hostility to western women, mostly by western men residing in SE Asia and to a lesser extent by men living in the west.

We see increasing divorce rates and decreasing birth rates. The nuclear family of most of the last century is nowhere near as prevalent as it was. I believe that 30% of all children now born in the UK are born outside of wedlock.

Up until the first world war, the sexes role was clearly defined. The man brought home the bacon and the women brought up the kids and looked after the house-hold. Yes, I know that these roles were imposed by men, but that was how it was. The suffragettes got women the vote. The two world wars, due to the lack of able-bodied men, proved to the world that women could take on jobs that were previously thought of as mens work. Then along came the birth control pill and the sexual revolution of the sixties. This was a women's revolution. A woman now no longer had to rely on the man to take protection, also, abortions became available and safe and did not have the social stigma that they once had. In other words, for the first time in history, she had full control of her body.

Due to all these factors, the expectations of women rose. No longer was she satisfied to remain at home and be the "little woman". The opportunities for a good career, financial security and self-determination without having to rely on a man were all there. Equality with men had never been so close, and many, many women took advantage of these opportunities. Look at Condoleezza Rice. Born in a poor black family, she is now the most powerful woman in the world. More powerful than many male leaders of other countries. This could not have happened thirty years ago.

So. Where does this leave the men folk. Over the years, they have seen their former primary role as bread-winner eroded. They now have to compete directly with women in the job market. As women have become more empowered, they have become more assertive and vocal about what they want in a relationship. They ask that their wants and needs are taken into consideration too. They want their men to be strong and supportive, yet, gentle and "intouch" with their feminine side.

Men now know that they are not needed. If a woman so chooses, she can have a good career, financial security and even have a baby without a man directly involved, yet, if a woman is in a relationship, her expectations of her mate have never been higher (historically speaking). The problems come when these expectations are not met. Divorce happens and the collective wealth is divided, pretty much always in the woman's favour, especially if there are children involved. Yet, how many men after fullfilling all their financial obligations have restricted visiting rights with there own children? Some men now see getting into a relationship with a woman as a throw of the dice. If they remain happy, all well and good. If the relationship breaks down there is a good chance that he will be financially ruined and have unreasonable conditions imposed by the courts.

Yet, in the same situation, the woman has financial security and keeps the children.

Some men think the pendulum of equality has swung too far, and that they are now the victims.

You will notice that the majority of men who have issues with Western women are early middle-aged or older. Not so many younger people. These older men remember either directly, or, through their parents "the good ol' days" when the roles of the sexes was more clearly defined. They see relationships as a zero sum game. A womans gain is their loss. These guys cannot go back to the old ways, yet, do not understand, or are unwilling to except the changed status of women.

I know I have painted with a very broad brush here, and there are many many exceptions to every single comment I have made here.

This is just my own opinion, so therefore worthless.

[Lola8288]

It isn't worthless at all, I think it's actually a very good post, very very good post, and very clear. It's really nice to read that kind of post about such a hot topic. Sensible and non judgemental, it's great to see people that can express theirselves without an ounce of agressivity. Admirable.

I have to add yet that I disagree when you say that women generally get the rights over the children in a divorce, I think that judges tend now to leave the children with the wealthiest side, be it the husband or the wife.

[meds]

I have noticed that there seems to be no true right (conservative) in any of these countries either.  What could be considered right over there could easily be considered left in America.

But I have met Swedish men that are unhappy with Swedish women.  They don't say it's "feminism" per se.  But one Swede I met in Chaingmai said, literally "Swedish women don't need men."  And that's why he said he was in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I don´t have that much to compare with, I really don´t know how right the Swedish right is in respect to a global standard - we have of course the very extremes with rasist and semi fascist parties, but they are in such vast minority they hardly count.

Of course there are Swedish men that are unhappy with Swedish women, and there are probably men (even though being heterosexual) that are unhappy with any woman, regardless nationality. The statement that Swedish women don´t need men gave me a spontaneous laugh, that must be a rather rare experience, I´ve never seen anything that would indicate such a thing. I dare say almost all of my female friends are rather or very interested in men in variuos ways (except one who´s occupied with a girlfriend) - but that of course doesn´t mean just any man (but again, does neither mean that you have to be a rockstar or an extreme sports ace - I´m a skinny guy without hair and still had a fair share... erh, so to speak...). Maybe less fortunate persons need to make drastic generalisations to get some order in their perspectives, obviously this guy had some convinient blinds so he didn´t need to consider all the otherwise obviuos factors... maybe...)

[britmaveric]

It isn't worthless at all, I think it's actually a very good post, very very good post, and very clear. It's really nice to read that kind of post about such a hot topic. Sensible and non judgemental, it's great to see people that can express theirselves without an ounce of agressivity. Admirable.

I have to add yet that I disagree when you say that women generally get the rights over the children in a divorce, I think that judges tend now to leave the children with the wealthiest side, be it the husband or the wife.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Little levity!!

Edited March 10, 2005 by britmaveric

[Sir Burr]

It isn't worthless at all, I think it's actually a very good post, very very good post, and very clear. It's really nice to read that kind of post about such a hot topic. Sensible and non judgemental, it's great to see people that can express theirselves without an ounce of agressivity. Admirable.

I have to add yet that I disagree when you say that women generally get the rights over the children in a divorce, I think that judges tend now to leave the children with the wealthiest side, be it the husband or the wife.

Ladies. my apologies for the previous post. Absolute drivel and poppycock. My da.mn squire Percival snuck in and used the computer whilst I was out giving the servants their daily thrashing. Gadzooks! What is the world coming to when a wench doesn't know her place in the world. Servants too when you come to think of it! Hurrumph! Hurrumph!

Edited March 10, 2005 by Sir Burr

[pendanapolis]

All of you seem incensed by some intrinsic desire to fight the idea that western women are not liked by a percentage of foreign and domestic men. I was just trying to get the conversation back on track. I have noticed that a few of you have offered up better communicated arguments. The truth is that there is hostility towards western women. Some of us have explained why ourselves and others feel the way we do. Arguing constantly with us doesn't really get you anywhere. We are not going to magically change our opinion cause a few females bitch at us for not finding the majority of western women as viable mating partners. In a sense we are just answering the topic of the thread. If you want to deny the facts whenever they are a threat to you, why have a thread asking the question? Did you expect only good things to be said? Did you expect that no one would dare question your values? Perhaps... But the truth remains despite your denial. You'll notice I never said all western women were undesirable, nor did I say all western men prefer foreign mates. I and others are just answering the thread by using polite and free speech.

Edited March 10, 2005 by pendanapolis

[Boo]

Arguing constantly with us doesn't really get you anywhere. We are not going to magically change our opinion cause a few females bitch at us for not finding the majority of western women as viable mating partners.

I think you've failed to grasp that we really have no problem with why some people would rather not have realtionships with western women, myself would rather not have a relationship with a western man, but that is because I am married to an asian man & have no desire for any other man, I preferred my husbands physical looks over caucasion & found him to be more my taste than western men. That doens't mean that I try to make stupid excuses like western men are all mental or promiscuous or gay but the hostility in this thread started with your mates post on why no man would want a western women if they had a choice & how all western women were mentally unstable & bisexual. Now sorry, but what part of that would you expect us not to get angry with??

Sadly, This thread is going no where

[aaaaaa]

seems like this thread gonna be shreded ... I think neithr BY who started it nor Boo who's let it be started and then continue haven't expected it to deteriorate into "war of sexes" squabble ... but it seems this thread gonna be closed soon - perhaps can count on fingers how many posts it'd take esepcially with dudes like meds joinging the fun.

sbaker, my humble unimposing and well intended advice: give it up, you gonna get yourself into not being able to make it even to your 20 posts like this if you continue escalate this heated argument which seems to be attracting more and more hotheads. well, if that's what your original idea was, simply to register , get entangled into some flaming debate and get "killed" by one of mods - then go ahead ... otherwise, simply find something else to talk about - leave it to be. it's definetely not gonna change neither your's opinion/ decisions nor others.

P.S. - which I add after reading the above post by Boo, who managed managed it just few secs b4 mine and apparently was almost reading my mind ! seems like Mods already get itchy by this thread ! sbaker, I think you better not wait till it gets closed - quit now!

Edited March 10, 2005 by aaaaaa

[brookieamer]

I am thirty good physique, full mane of golden hair, of independant means.........................;oops sorry woke up. The advice re western women is to avoid posting after too much wine, having said that the sentiments remain broadly the same. Loving a Thai woman doesn't means hating western women. I would be sorry for any Thai woman lumbered with such a negative specimen. No wonder some have such appalling track records with women.......All that negativity is going to end up dumped on the Thai partner sometime in the future. People who continually bleat about the failures of western women should try a reality check beginning with themselves.

[brookieamer]

Sir Burr

I have to say that your post was the biggest load of B********s I have read in a long time, it's so bad it's funny. Have you slept through the last century? Or do you hanker for the good old days of serfdom and women bowing and scraping. I feel sorry for you that you won't ever know the pleasure of a partnership of equals. If you did not have such feelings of inadequacy you would not feel threatened by women.

[Sir Burr]

Sir Burr

I have to say that your post  was the biggest load of B********s I have read in a long time, it's so bad it's funny. Have you slept through the last century? Or do you hanker for the good old days of serfdom and women bowing and scraping. I feel sorry for you that you won't ever know the pleasure of a partnership of equals. If you did not have such feelings of inadequacy you would not feel threatened by women.

Re-read the last line of my post. I'm not biting.

[Boon Mee]

Admittedly, there is a sea change in the West regarding men and women.  I'm sure it is baffling for a lot of people, and understandably.  And yes, there are a lot of fat people, and this includes women.  But there are also a lot of people that are working out, eating better, taking care of themselves, and looking decades younger - this also includes women.  However, I'm sure that women who can attract younger men with younger attitudes most likely settle with them, for reasons which are obvious on this thread.  Maybe this is also an integral part of the Western males' problem, lol. 

Kat~

Good post.

Now, I'm not going to "Fisk" it or start a flame-war or even disagree with 99% of what you clearly stated, but one point... although these folks are working out, looking better etc it's what's in their heads that counts. The western males' "problem" if you want to call it that is we don't want a competitor. That's what American women, for the most part, have become - competitors.

I'll be the first to admit it - it's not easy being Farang Pooying in Thailand.

Edited March 11, 2005 by Boon Mee

[alaina]

Some guys are worse than born again Christians in a conversation, instead of every topic leading to Jesus talk you just substitute what your neagtive opinion of western women is.

Perhaps I was too subtle in quoting the original question. I don't recall the poster asking why some guys spout off really intolerant crap about Western women. As a matter of fact I don't see any woman on this board who asked what any particular man here see as flaws in the Western female character. We know. We know because a plenty of men are hardly quiet about their opinion. Thankfully the dynamics between Westerners are different in my experience than most of the hateful garbage that gets posted in Thailand message boards. I try and remember that there are guys who are "normal" who have to suffer through people with this mentality too.

Most of the discussion here has been more civil than most on this topic but it seems like its going downhill fast. It's really getting old when on a woman's forum a bunch of guys jump in to tell us they wouldn't date us. That's about as intolerant as a bunch of Christians handing out Jesus pamphlets in front of a Buddhist temple (which also happens here...) So for the last time, if you don't want to date a Western woman, I don't think anyone will try and force you. But just stop whining about it already.

[cdnvic]

Look at Condoleezza Rice. Born in a poor black family, she is now the most powerful woman in the world.

<snip>

This is just my own opinion, so therefore worthless.

So is the research. She was born to a middle class family and her parents (Both university educated) could afford to send her away to University in Denver. Makes a good movie of the week though.

cv

[Boon Mee]

Look at Condoleezza Rice. Born in a poor black family, she is now the most powerful woman in the world.

<snip>

This is just my own opinion, so therefore worthless.

So is the research. She was born to a middle class family and her parents (Both university educated) could afford to send her away to University in Denver. Makes a good movie of the week though.

cv

Parents who were very strict and made her read a book per week when she was a kid.

[bina]

before u all zap the topic:

a quote from hong kraay kriat :

from:

tulok

Today, 2005-03-11 10:59:30

Post #46

Newbie

*

Group: Members

Posts: 9

Joined: 2005-03-08

Member No.: 17,397

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't give a Thai girl the time of day! And some of the girls that you men are courting leaves alot to be desired. I think its a shame that you trail after these girls like as some put it "an addiction." You get tricked and embarassed by one of theses women and then you go for anotehr and the same thing happens.

I am a white male here in Thailnd working and I caught onto this game real quickly. Some of you men who whimper and cry over some 4th grade educated Thai girl is really pathetic.

For me, the western woman is in a class by herself. I will only go out with them. There is certainly a large community of single women in Thailand and for that matter married but ignored women who are looking to meet western guys.

I don't understand or can even fathom why these western men court these Thai women as though they are something special.

For the guy who wants to play games with the thai girl who is cheating on him... How silly that you come to ask for dating advice in a forum. Please you should manage your own love life!

Not to sound mean but really are embarassing.

i thought y'alld like this: a man who thinks differently:

Edited March 11, 2005 by bina

[Boon Mee]

before u all zap the topic:

a quote from hong kraay kriat :

from:

tulok

Today, 2005-03-11 10:59:30

Post #46

Newbie

*

Group: Members

Posts: 9

Joined: 2005-03-08

Member No.: 17,397

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't give a Thai girl the time of day! And some of the girls that you men are courting leaves alot to be desired. I think its a shame that you trail after these girls like as some put it "an addiction." You get tricked and embarassed by one of theses women and then you go for anotehr and the same thing happens.

I am a white male here in Thailnd working and I caught onto this game real quickly. Some of you men who whimper and cry over some 4th grade educated Thai girl is really pathetic.

For me, the western woman is in a class by herself. I will only go out with them. There is certainly a large community of single women in Thailand and for that matter married but ignored women who are looking to meet western guys.

I don't understand or can even fathom why these western men court these Thai women as though they are something special.

For the guy who wants to play games with the thai girl who is cheating on him... How silly that you come to ask for dating advice in a forum. Please you should manage your own love life!

Not to sound mean but really are embarassing.

i thought y'alld like this: a man who thinks differently:

Yep, a real diamond in the rough.

You're right. He sure does think differently. Thanks for that, bina!

[cdnvic]

Bina, I thought you said it was someone who thinks.

cv

[alex100]

Some western women can be very judgmental re the freedoms afforded to the Western male in LOS - I worked in an office in Chonburi for 6 months included in the staff were an Austrailan and an Aemercan girl. They were openly hostile if we ever suggested going to Pattaya - so the guys used to go on there on their own and get real hasslte on Monday morning. This attitude which is proabaly a natural reaction to themselves being second in line as it were most of the time. This is probably where hostility stems from.

[kat]

I happen to be a state licensed clinical psychologist. I have mainly lived in America, although I have lived in England and France for brief intervals. I have had a few girl friends over the years, but I have never been very satisfied with western women. I too, like sbaker, find the attitude towards men exhibited by western women to be a negative force when it comes to a loving relationship.

American women DO tend to have far more psychological problems that women from other countries. At least that is what numerous studies have shown. Also, American women feel they are owed reparations, so to speak, from men for years of perceived repression. I will not get into a debate on the virtues of the feminist movement, but I will say that it has hurt family structure and child development. You can not have repressed hostility in a loving relationship and succeed in raising psychologically healthy children, let alone retain mental health for yourselves. This hostility is what sbaker and many other males like myself find unattractive in western women. Men find femininity attractive and femininity is what they often look for in a partner. This is not because men want to repress women. Femininity has nothing to do with being a "###### doll" or not standing up for your self. Femininity has to do with being caring and wanting to look after their partner. Hostility does no fit well in this equation. In essence men want women who will raise a good family and bear healthy children and respect them and look after them. And love them! Most men work hard to reciprocate, although they seldom do so in the same manner. Men work hard and produce food and protection for the family in return for the female care. Whether or not many of you think this is "fair" or the way you want to live your lives in irrelevant to the fact that many men are just looking elsewhere.

I would also like to point out that sbaker meant no hostility towards any of you. Sbaker was just stating the facts as he perceives them. Many of you decided to take his comments personally for one reason or another, but most likely because the vast majority of you realize you have such feelings toward men. I am afraid to inform you that your debate with sbaker has lost all track of logic while your ego defenses fire off like crazy. If you can all get ahold of yourselves and reread sbaker's first post then perhaps the discussion can continue in a reasonable fashion.

I would like to point out that the few posts before sbaker's first post were extremely anti-male and full of misperceptions. Sbaker was just participating in the conversation by allowing the accused males a fair hearing. The majority of you jumped on his back piling on endless accusation, which were simply not founded in the reality of his post. Note: sbaker did not say he wanted "###### dolls", or women who lacked personal expression, or women that were acquiescent. At this point all of you, without even being consciously aware, proved his point, and in fact many of you even suppressed sbakers opinions. I would also like to point out that sbaker has not been arguing with any of you, but rather he has just been denying the words put in his mouth.

In closing I would like to say that I also have nothing against western women. I have no grudge, and I have no desire to suppress your ideas. I am not full of hate or any such thing. I just am at the age where I want to have a family and a few children. I want a wife that will help me raise my children and care for them. I don't want hostility that will result in a divorce (50% of american marriages end in divorce by the way). Divorce really does mentally impair young kids and teenagers alike. I have a choice as I have plenty of money and can easily relocate to another country. American men are loved by women in almost every country but this one.

How would you feel if all american men said, "we don't need women for anything!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This gets funnier by the minute. We now have the "expert" opinion of a self-proclaimed psychologist who's last gig could've easily been the daytime movie- of-the-week. Well, he//, at least we've got entertainment on this thread.

Admittedly, there is a sea change in the West regarding men and women.  I'm sure it is baffling for a lot of people, and understandably.  And yes, there are a lot of fat people, and this includes women.  But there are also a lot of people that are working out, eating better, taking care of themselves, and looking decades younger - this also includes women.  However, I'm sure that women who can attract younger men with younger attitudes most likely settle with them, for reasons which are obvious on this thread.  Maybe this is also an integral part of the Western males' problem, lol. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kat~

Good post.

Now, I'm not going to "Fisk" it or start a flame-war or even disagree with 99% of what you clearly stated, but one point... although these folks are working out, looking better etc it's what's in their heads that counts. The western males' "problem" if you want to call it that is we don't want a competitor. That's what American women, for the most part, have become - competitors.

I'll be the first to admit it - it's not easy being Farang Pooying in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Boon Mee. I respect your honesty (wow, are we actually being nice to one another ). But here's what: generally, most women who think like me don't really have an issue with your preferences, but precisely with what you perceive as a problem "in our heads". 55555 Somehow, I don't think the nice-nice between us is going to last

[Boon Mee]

I happen to be a state licensed clinical psychologist. I have mainly lived in America, although I have lived in England and France for brief intervals. I have had a few girl friends over the years, but I have never been very satisfied with western women. I too, like sbaker, find the attitude towards men exhibited by western women to be a negative force when it comes to a loving relationship.

American women DO tend to have far more psychological problems that women from other countries. At least that is what numerous studies have shown. Also, American women feel they are owed reparations, so to speak, from men for years of perceived repression. I will not get into a debate on the virtues of the feminist movement, but I will say that it has hurt family structure and child development. You can not have repressed hostility in a loving relationship and succeed in raising psychologically healthy children, let alone retain mental health for yourselves. This hostility is what sbaker and many other males like myself find unattractive in western women. Men find femininity attractive and femininity is what they often look for in a partner. This is not because men want to repress women. Femininity has nothing to do with being a "###### doll" or not standing up for your self. Femininity has to do with being caring and wanting to look after their partner. Hostility does no fit well in this equation. In essence men want women who will raise a good family and bear healthy children and respect them and look after them. And love them! Most men work hard to reciprocate, although they seldom do so in the same manner. Men work hard and produce food and protection for the family in return for the female care. Whether or not many of you think this is "fair" or the way you want to live your lives in irrelevant to the fact that many men are just looking elsewhere.

I would also like to point out that sbaker meant no hostility towards any of you. Sbaker was just stating the facts as he perceives them. Many of you decided to take his comments personally for one reason or another, but most likely because the vast majority of you realize you have such feelings toward men. I am afraid to inform you that your debate with sbaker has lost all track of logic while your ego defenses fire off like crazy. If you can all get ahold of yourselves and reread sbaker's first post then perhaps the discussion can continue in a reasonable fashion.

I would like to point out that the few posts before sbaker's first post were extremely anti-male and full of misperceptions. Sbaker was just participating in the conversation by allowing the accused males a fair hearing. The majority of you jumped on his back piling on endless accusation, which were simply not founded in the reality of his post. Note: sbaker did not say he wanted "###### dolls", or women who lacked personal expression, or women that were acquiescent. At this point all of you, without even being consciously aware, proved his point, and in fact many of you even suppressed sbakers opinions. I would also like to point out that sbaker has not been arguing with any of you, but rather he has just been denying the words put in his mouth.

In closing I would like to say that I also have nothing against western women. I have no grudge, and I have no desire to suppress your ideas. I am not full of hate or any such thing. I just am at the age where I want to have a family and a few children. I want a wife that will help me raise my children and care for them. I don't want hostility that will result in a divorce (50% of american marriages end in divorce by the way). Divorce really does mentally impair young kids and teenagers alike. I have a choice as I have plenty of money and can easily relocate to another country. American men are loved by women in almost every country but this one.

How would you feel if all american men said, "we don't need women for anything!"

This gets funnier by the minute. We now have the "expert" opinion of a self-proclaimed psychologist who's last gig could've easily been the daytime movie- of-the-week. Well, he//, at least we've got entertainment on this thread.

Admittedly, there is a sea change in the West regarding men and women.  I'm sure it is baffling for a lot of people, and understandably.  And yes, there are a lot of fat people, and this includes women.  But there are also a lot of people that are working out, eating better, taking care of themselves, and looking decades younger - this also includes women.  However, I'm sure that women who can attract younger men with younger attitudes most likely settle with them, for reasons which are obvious on this thread.  Maybe this is also an integral part of the Western males' problem, lol. 

Kat~

Good post.

Now, I'm not going to "Fisk" it or start a flame-war or even disagree with 99% of what you clearly stated, but one point... although these folks are working out, looking better etc it's what's in their heads that counts. The western males' "problem" if you want to call it that is we don't want a competitor. That's what American women, for the most part, have become - competitors.

I'll be the first to admit it - it's not easy being Farang Pooying in Thailand.

Thanks Boon Mee. I respect your honesty (wow, are we actually being nice to one another ). But here's what: generally, most women who think like me don't really have an issue with your preferences, but precisely with what you perceive as a problem "in our heads". 55555 Somehow, I don't think the nice-nice between us is going to last

Sure it will as I've said my piece and basically don't have an ax to grind here.

My first and only wife is Thai so I'm not one of those "jilted/bitter" folks who are still tilting at windmills.

[desi]

I would proceed with caution when asking any thai men out for an innocent drink, that is considered very forward for most decent thai men & they would more than likely get the impression that you liked them. If you are part of a group then no problem but just bear in mind that this is a different country & culture & what is considered completly innocent & normal in your own country could be considered forward & cause you some problems if a misunderstanding occured.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't mind expanding, I have a serious question on this subject.

My neighbor is a very warm/kind newly widowed (just a few years) Thai man of much energy (retired). We have a lot in common and have just started to do things together. After the container arrived and unpacked I invited him into my home for a look as he was curious. He's been in several times for this and that. When I'm more settled I'll have him in for tea, but only if it's the done thing.

We have exchanged phone numbers and he'll call me when something interesting is going on in the street with vendors, etc (as I've not learned the sounds of the different bells), or if there is something he thinks I'd like to do. And we've now set a time to go 'Thai grocery shopping' so I can get used to the local vegetables and fruits.

All of the above I am grateful for because I work out of a home office and being too focused on my job, I need contact with live people, especially if I'm being sweetly coerced.

So my question is this - is what I am doing considered 'proper' in Thai society? I live in a mostly Thai community, a very small and quiet soi where everyone has been here for years.

desi

[desi]

Good grief.

When I posted previously, it was in response to one on page three of this discussion. Little did I know it would explode into what it has.

Not sure whether to laugh, or, to, um, something, as I've yet to have any experience with the negatives against western women in Thailand. None except for what I've read on forums. Not in the 'real world' is what I mean.

As for the 'professional', it's been my pleasure to realize the majority of those in the field are there because they were screwed up in the first place and were in search of a 'fix'.

Now how's THAT for a sweeping statement?

Enough said.

Well, near enough. "Nicely said, Kat". I'm a feminine gal myself.

And, by god, YES I love doors opened for me, with dinners paid for by the male.

And YES I'm a ###### good cook who loves to spoil men rotten with special dinners and am willing to reciprocate without feeling I've been downtrodden in some way as what would be the point? It's MY choice as to what I do with my time, with my life. So let the rest go soak.

desi

[siamesekitty]

I would proceed with caution when asking any thai men out for an innocent drink, that is considered very forward for most decent thai men & they would more than likely get the impression that you liked them. If you are part of a group then no problem but just bear in mind that this is a different country & culture & what is considered completly innocent & normal in your own country could be considered forward & cause you some problems if a misunderstanding occured.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't mind expanding, I have a serious question on this subject.

My neighbor is a very warm/kind newly widowed (just a few years) Thai man of much energy (retired). We have a lot in common and have just started to do things together. After the container arrived and unpacked I invited him into my home for a look as he was curious. He's been in several times for this and that. When I'm more settled I'll have him in for tea, but only if it's the done thing.

We have exchanged phone numbers and he'll call me when something interesting is going on in the street with vendors, etc (as I've not learned the sounds of the different bells), or if there is something he thinks I'd like to do. And we've now set a time to go 'Thai grocery shopping' so I can get used to the local vegetables and fruits.

All of the above I am grateful for because I work out of a home office and being too focused on my job, I need contact with live people, especially if I'm being sweetly coerced.

So my question is this - is what I am doing considered 'proper' in Thai society? I live in a mostly Thai community, a very small and quiet soi where everyone has been here for years.

desi

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think there could be talk about that, as people in sois tend to notice happenings and being new and a farang, you could certainly attract quite a bit of attention among the residents. It might depend on the level of nosiness and the type of neighborhood you're in (if it's a busy soi where people walk around and all know each other, more talk). Just be a bit careful of your reputation, as many people have a tendency to 'think too much'.

[desi]

Thank-you for you advice siamesekitty. This is a very small soi, only six houses and everyone knows each other. Guess I need to make sure to invite a lady or two at the same time.

desi

[peterzxr]

Little did my poor husband know when he married me that he would end up with a mentally unstable, selfish psycho b!tch. Funny, I didn't even realize I was a mentally unstable selfish psycho b!tch, but two guys say it, so it must be so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I supose you should pack yourself off to the nearest asylum / desert island then.

Still, I also supose KPN doubles as both at various parts of the month.

Some people eh sbk?

[peterzxr]

Well, I could also say that American men, in my honest opinion, have great difficulty in committing to a serious relationship with a woman, are always on the lookout for the greener grass on the other side of the fence. Are unsupportive of their working wives (because, if we face a bit of reality here, one income is no longer enough to support a family), expect their working wives to do the majority of the housework, childcare and cooking. And then wonder why their wives aren't up to snuff in bed (too exhausted). American men tend to be selfish, tend to be insecure and feel the need to posture.

But, hey, that is just my honest opinion, no insult intended. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well with Bill Womaniser Clinton being swiflty followed by George Warmonger Bush I can't say they had great role models though eh?

[brookieamer]

I happen to be a state licensed clinical psychologist. I have mainly lived in America, although I have lived in England and France for brief intervals. I have had a few girl friends over the years, but I have never been very satisfied with western women. I too, like sbaker, find the attitude towards men exhibited by western women to be a negative force when it comes to a loving relationship.

American women DO tend to have far more psychological problems that women from other countries. At least that is what numerous studies have shown. Also, American women feel they are owed reparations, so to speak, from men for years of perceived repression. I will not get into a debate on the virtues of the feminist movement, but I will say that it has hurt family structure and child development. You can not have repressed hostility in a loving relationship and succeed in raising psychologically healthy children, let alone retain mental health for yourselves. This hostility is what sbaker and many other males like myself find unattractive in western women. Men find femininity attractive and femininity is what they often look for in a partner. This is not because men want to repress women. Femininity has nothing to do with being a "###### doll" or not standing up for your self. Femininity has to do with being caring and wanting to look after their partner. Hostility does no fit well in this equation. In essence men want women who will raise a good family and bear healthy children and respect them and look after them. And love them! Most men work hard to reciprocate, although they seldom do so in the same manner. Men work hard and produce food and protection for the family in return for the female care. Whether or not many of you think this is "fair" or the way you want to live your lives in irrelevant to the fact that many men are just looking elsewhere.

I would also like to point out that sbaker meant no hostility towards any of you. Sbaker was just stating the facts as he perceives them. Many of you decided to take his comments personally for one reason or another, but most likely because the vast majority of you realize you have such feelings toward men. I am afraid to inform you that your debate with sbaker has lost all track of logic while your ego defenses fire off like crazy. If you can all get ahold of yourselves and reread sbaker's first post then perhaps the discussion can continue in a reasonable fashion.

I would like to point out that the few posts before sbaker's first post were extremely anti-male and full of misperceptions. Sbaker was just participating in the conversation by allowing the accused males a fair hearing. The majority of you jumped on his back piling on endless accusation, which were simply not founded in the reality of his post. Note: sbaker did not say he wanted "###### dolls", or women who lacked personal expression, or women that were acquiescent. At this point all of you, without even being consciously aware, proved his point, and in fact many of you even suppressed sbakers opinions. I would also like to point out that sbaker has not been arguing with any of you, but rather he has just been denying the words put in his mouth.

In closing I would like to say that I also have nothing against western women. I have no grudge, and I have no desire to suppress your ideas. I am not full of hate or any such thing. I just am at the age where I want to have a family and a few children. I want a wife that will help me raise my children and care for them. I don't want hostility that will result in a divorce (50% of american marriages end in divorce by the way). Divorce really does mentally impair young kids and teenagers alike. I have a choice as I have plenty of money and can easily relocate to another country. American men are loved by women in almost every country but this one.

How would you feel if all american men said, "we don't need women for anything!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

**Reply deleted as it was childish, and obnoxious. If you must resort to calling people names and using profanities to get your point across then you aren't ready to debate with the grown-ups. Please either act more mature, or find another outlet for your anger.**

/mod

Edited March 13, 2005 by cdnvic

[No beleeeeve!]

My two cents....

The one myth I keep hearing, particularly by Western women, is that Asian women are subserviant (sp). I found it quite the opposite in my experiences. Asian women are way more resiliant than in the West. The whole Western Rikki Lake "What have you done for me lately" chant is one of dependence of Western women on Western men. Get what you can from men so you don't have to work for it yourself. (Yes, a big generalization but a very accurate one too)

Western women often think because an Asian woman enjoys taking care of her man if the man gives in return, a mutually beneficial relationship, that it is bad and the Asian woman is a slave.

Most of the Western guys I met who are with Asian women, including myself, are so because we found women who are proud to put effort into a relationship as long as it is mutual. Not submissive, just kind and contributing. Three friends of mine and I all found Asian women that we will be marrying within the next year. My friends are all with Thai women and I am am with a Chinese woman.

A generalization but more often true in Asia than in the States for example. I liked the increased odds of finding a giving mate in Asia and luckily found one in China. One of the greatest women I have ever met, she is spunky, has a strong opinion without being stubborn, and doesn't hesitate to disagree with me or give her opinion without being argumentative. I respect her for that yet she is still caring, loving, supportive of me as a person, and I strive to be all those things to her without hesitation.

Did I ever date anyone that had the qualities I mentioned above that I look for who was in the States...hmmm.....once, many years ago. Luckily I never gave up, never married and not bitter at all towards Western women. Heck, my mother and grandmother are both Western!

I have many female friends who are from the States too but I can't see ever settling down with one.

Again, my two cents as it applies to me...

[desi]

So let the rest go soak.

For some reason I cannot edit my post. In rereading it this morning, I realized "So let the rest go soak" is not in the spirit of what I was trying to convey as it's aimed at the wrong audience. I guess it just sounded good at 1am, or whatever time I was posting and I needed a line to end on.

I meant for it to be a general statement towards those who don't appreciate an assortment of women, whatever their qualities, cultures, and many differences, yadda yadda yadda.

Dmn, I need more caffeine ...

desi