West Ham United V. Millwall Violence

[highchol]

Iam english and it is fine to drop the 'u' in anglish when humour becomes humorless as I pointed out you are. Go check it out.

erm the thread is not the west ham one, but one specific to the bother at the recent west ham millwall match. Go check it out.

The only thing that I am 'checking out' is your appalling lack of grammar, spelling and understanding of the topic in hand - which, by the way - is a topic that I started on another thread. West Ham Millwall.

If you have anything to say about the topic fine. If not go back to the bar that spawned you.

so i take it you are not going to check it out.

I thought the topic in hand was about your sense of humour or lack of.

[Geekfreaklover]

I liked this ...

... me too.

I don't see the humour in that.

I'm more concerned about the guy that was almost killed by West Ham 'fans'.

Grow up.

Not the brightest tool in the box are we, Greekfeaklover.

"Grow up" you spittle forth like a rabid dog. I'd rather thought it you who needs the introspection on that score.

Humourless fool. Did you not know it a characteristic of Americans not being able to laugh at themselves ?

The only tool is you, 'Hammer'

I've been more than dipolmatic about the subject topic. I thought it would be good to get the perspective from both clubs, but nah, you have to resort to backstabbing (sorry, typo -front-stabbing) and making personal insults.

Take the piss out of Millwall fans all you like.

No one likes us, we don't care.

[alfieconn]

I liked this....................

Old Hooligan: A Day in The Life...

Posted 27/08/09 13:26 Football365

Work. Same old, same old. A warrior like me should not be caged. And definitely not as a Waste Management Support Co-ordinator in Lewisham Council. Phone rings. Pick it up.

"Ooo are ya? Ooo are ya? Ooo are ya?" I shout.

"Barry," says the voice. "It's Mr Stevens. Now what did we say about answering the phone in accordance with the guidelines laid down by HR in consultation with designated union representatives?"

"Sorry, Mr Stevens," I say.

"That's better Barry. Now can you please arrange for a member of the cleaning personnel team to go down to the lobby and change the waste paper basket on front desk?"

"Millwall! Millwall! Millwall!" I shout.

"No Barry. Waste paper management now. Millwall later," says Stevens. "Honestly Barry. A man of 48 really ought to be able to control himself."

"Yes Mr Stevens," I say. He's bricking it now, the mug. I hang up and email the cleaning personnel team, and then practice aggressive walking in my cubicle until lunch.

Lunchtime. Free. Outside. The Lion prowls. Trouble though. There's a gang of muppets on the corner. West Ham? They're only young 'uns, but they're probably tooled up, the scum. Two of them. I'm outnumbered. But these colours don't run.

"Come on then! Come on then!" I shout, flapping my arms up and down in a well aggressive way while walking away from them backwards.

The bigger one drops his ice cream. He starts to cry. Soon the other one is crying too.

"You slaaaaaaaaags," I shout. "Ooo are ya? Gertcha! Queen Mum! Ave a banana. Oi oi saveloy."

But hold up. It was a trap. There's another one. The top dog. Waiting in Boots. Clever.

"What the hel_l are you shouting at my kids for?" she says. "What is wrong with you? Scaring a five year-old in the street like that."

"I'm on your manor and I'm taking the piss," I say.

She's coming at me now. Hard. This is more than just a bit of handbags. She's tooled up: with an actual handbag. This is Luton 1985. This is Highbury 1988. This is Toys R Us 1995 when that Palace Young Team pushed me off the bouncy castle.

"Come on then! Do you want some?" I say, running in the other direction.

Course, I'm more built for raw power than speed, and after a few yards I'm wheezing, doubled up outside Dixons, lungs on fire.

They catch up to me, the three of them. The top dog's got that handbag. The small one looks mental, a proper psycho, covered in strawberry ice-cream like it's warpaint. The littlest one's got a Dora The Explorer lunchbox. The clever, clever slags.

"Why is that fat old man dressed like a young person, mummy?" says ice cream.

Is this how it ends? On the cold pavement outside Dixons? I'm going out with my head held high. They'll talk about me in the Dog And Fascist for years to come. I'm a legend. I'm a bloody Lions legend. I wait for the blows.

I feel a hot, wet sensation spreading over me. The blood, the glory, the end. I'm going to the great New Den in the sky a hero, a fighter, a geezer who never took a backward step. I hear a voice - is it God? Asking me to join His Firm, be a top boy?

"Mummy mummy, that silly fat man has done a wee in his trousers."

And then it all goes black.

Alan Tyers

redrus

To be fair, your having a pop at Millwall but the fat geezer on the pitch hardly looked like Mr Intellectual

[EastSaxCol]

thought it would be good to get the perspective from both clubs, but nah, you have to resort to backstabbing (sorry, typo -front-stabbing) and making personal insults.

Take the piss out of Millwall fans all you like.

No one likes us, we don't care.

No one has backstabbed anybody. So your comment there is inappropriate. Only reacted to you humourless failure to see how the article was quite amusing and diplomacy in suggesting that anyone with sense of humour needs to "grow up". If it had been sending -up West Ham thugs I'd have been equally amused. I think that a reality check is best brought home with a good dose of humour myself.

[EastSaxCol]

To be fair, your having a pop at Millwall but the fat geezer on the pitch hardly looked like Mr Intellectual

I'm not sure what Mr Intellectual looks like ? But there was more than one "fat geezer" who ran on the pitch. An odd phenomenon in itself. My own thoughts were that given their appearances and actions, then they would have missed out on the cuddles of the rave scene, if they'd have been there.

[Geekfreaklover]

thought it would be good to get the perspective from both clubs, but nah, you have to resort to backstabbing (sorry, typo -front-stabbing) and making personal insults.

Take the piss out of Millwall fans all you like.

No one likes us, we don't care.

No one has backstabbed anybody. So your comment there is inappropriate. Only reacted to you humourless failure to see how the article was quite amusing and diplomacy in suggesting that anyone with sense of humour needs to "grow up". If it had been sending -up West Ham thugs I'd have been equally amused. I think that a reality check is best brought home with a good dose of humour myself.

Sorry, my thoughts are with the guy that got stabbed in the chest. Perhaps I was wrong to point out that you were taking the piss.

What was inappropriate was posting an article on how stupid Millwall supporters are at the same time a football supporter is fighting for his life in hospital from a stab wound from a football hooligan.

We all need things to take our mind of the problem in hand, but basically mate I speak as a football fan and I think your comments are out of order. Most would agree. You were taking the piss and you know it.

Nothing funny about a football supporter in hospital, mate.

[EastSaxCol]

What was inappropriate was posting an article on how stupid Millwall supporters are at the same time a football supporter is fighting for his life in hospital from a stab wound from a football hooligan.

He's fighting for his life ? I've only heard the day after that his condition was "stable". Whatever, I hope that they arrest the person responsible. It's still sickening to think that whoever pushed the bloke under the train all those years ago is still roaming free because of the morons having some heroic culture of not "grassing-up". They really have no idea.

Anyway, the article in question made no reference to the stabbing, but was a general piss-take of handbag hooligans as I saw it.

[Geekfreaklover]

What was inappropriate was posting an article on how stupid Millwall supporters are at the same time a football supporter is fighting for his life in hospital from a stab wound from a football hooligan.

He's fighting for his life ? I've only heard the day after that his condition was "stable". Whatever, I hope that they arrest the person responsible. It's still sickening to think that whoever pushed the bloke under the train all those years ago is still roaming free because of the morons having some heroic culture of not "grassing-up". They really have no idea.

Anyway, the article in question made no reference to the stabbing, but was a general piss-take of handbag hooligans as I saw it.

Good reply, and yes I agree. I probably over-reacted and the posting of the article was probably in bad taste bearing in mind the circumstances. Lets leave it there.

GFL.

[bifftastic]

I was totally shocked to hear it, who would have though violence at a West Ham Vs Millwall game......

You say that, but throughout the history of the clubs it has never been as bad as last night. Brings back memories of Luton away. When you are a true fan of either club it's a bit <deleted> upsetting.

Ok it was bad, but to say it has never been as bad throughout the history of the clubs is just not true. It may have not been reported the same way 'back in the day' as scenes like that were more commonplace but there have been much much worse confrontations between Millwall and West Ham in the past. I don't think many people outside the two 'areas of influence' really understand just how deep this rivalry goes. In fact to call it a rivallry compares it to other rivallries like Arsenal Tottenham for instance. Hatred is a more accurate term. It is one of those self-perpetuating, nobody can really pur their finger on why, kind of things. But I can assure you it has been much worse than it was this time.

This one, I believe, was 'brewing' over the last few months. Couple that with the fact that there were a third of the amount of police on duty than there were for the last visit of our south london cousins and a recipe for disaster was, sadly, served up in reality.

There will be the usual rhetoric from both clubs and the authorities. The newspapers will predict the collapse of the western world and society as we know it. Both clubs will have peaceful encounters with their various oppositions and if this fixture ever happens again I hope it is policed as heavily as the four previous ones (all of which I attended). There was the hatred, but there was also the policing which kept everyone more or less apart and no-one was seriously injured.

I'm by no means condoning what happened, rather pointing out that this enmity exists and if such fixtures are to be played then there is a way that they can be succesfully held without anyone ending up in hospital.

[MSingh]

I was totally shocked to hear it, who would have though violence at a West Ham Vs Millwall game......

You say that, but throughout the history of the clubs it has never been as bad as last night. Brings back memories of Luton away. When you are a true fan of either club it's a bit <deleted> upsetting.

Ok it was bad, but to say it has never been as bad throughout the history of the clubs is just not true. It may have not been reported the same way 'back in the day' as scenes like that were more commonplace but there have been much much worse confrontations between Millwall and West Ham in the past. I don't think many people outside the two 'areas of influence' really understand just how deep this rivalry goes. In fact to call it a rivallry compares it to other rivallries like Arsenal Tottenham for instance. Hatred is a more accurate term. It is one of those self-perpetuating, nobody can really pur their finger on why, kind of things. But I can assure you it has been much worse than it was this time.

This one, I believe, was 'brewing' over the last few months. Couple that with the fact that there were a third of the amount of police on duty than there were for the last visit of our south london cousins and a recipe for disaster was, sadly, served up in reality.

There will be the usual rhetoric from both clubs and the authorities. The newspapers will predict the collapse of the western world and society as we know it. Both clubs will have peaceful encounters with their various oppositions and if this fixture ever happens again I hope it is policed as heavily as the four previous ones (all of which I attended). There was the hatred, but there was also the policing which kept everyone more or less apart and no-one was seriously injured.

I'm by no means condoning what happened, rather pointing out that this enmity exists and if such fixtures are to be played then there is a way that they can be succesfully held without anyone ending up in hospital.

You make some very good points there Fella the only thing wrong being it was closer to less than a Quarter of OB present than a Third..

There was SOOOOO many ways & reasons as to why what happened on Tuesday night, did.

I could name half a dozen things off the top of my head that shouldn't have happened which would have lessened, not completely eradicated, the chances of badness happening..

Problem is all of those things involve the Met to have their say so & influence & that really appears to be the problem for me in all this..

But i said something on Saturday night to a Fella in a Bar talking about it all & after i said it, i thought it summed it up completely..

I told him that " My Grandad hated Millwall more than i actually do & wouldn't dream of having them as Pals like i have ", after i said it, it coincides with what you say, this specific Game & " Rivalry "/hatred goes on beyond the vast majority in the Country, still doesn't make would happened on Tuesday night right thought but maybe a little more understandable.

I personally believe, & have for a few Years now, that Football Hooliganism is a Social Issue & is an uprising by people who are now becoming the Minority, especially in Inner City areas around the Country, i believe there's a lot more to it than 2 sets of Fans having a tear up, but that's an arguement for another day..

[EastSaxCol]

Ok it was bad, but to say it has never been as bad throughout the history of the clubs is just not true. It may have not been reported the same way 'back in the day' as scenes like that were more commonplace but there have been much much worse confrontations between Millwall and West Ham in the past. I don't think many people outside the two 'areas of influence' really understand just how deep this rivalry goes.

Or the origins of the antipathy. I'v know of both West Ham hoolies and Milwall that, for different reasons, are in denial of the actual history of when and how the hostility first begun.

In fact to call it a rivallry compares it to other rivallries like Arsenal Tottenham for instance. Hatred is a more accurate term. It is one of those self-perpetuating, nobody can really pur their finger on why, kind of things. But I can assure you it has been much worse than it was this time.

It isn't even a rivalry at all and hardly has ever been as the two clubs hardly ever meet. I assume that a rilvary is when there's an actual jostling for position in the same league. Yes, there were even fatal encounters when both sets of hoollies. But most supporters were unaffected by this as it was tear-up by a very small minority. This one , however, was in the full glow of publicity during a game and instigated mostly by one side. In the 70's and 80's they were mostly pre-arranged meets outside of the grounds

This one, I believe, was 'brewing' over the last few months.

What leads you to think this ?

... if this fixture ever happens again I hope it is policed as heavily as the four previous ones (all of which I attended). There was the hatred, but there was also the policing which kept everyone more or less apart and no-one was seriously injured.

I attended those games at UP too. And yes , the amount of anticipation did ensure that nothing actually happened in and around the ground. The reason that this one was so ill-prepared is all about complacency I think. We had all thought -- perhaps naively -- it mostly a thing of the past. However, I have my hypothesis as to why this kind of think should raise it's ugly head again at this time. Much in the same way as the emergence of the far right in England -- both are phenomena that arise during economic downturns.

I'm by no means condoning what happened, rather pointing out that this enmity exists and if such fixtures are to be played then there is a way that they can be succesfully held without anyone ending up in hospital.

Silly to deny that there is animalistic hatred between various "supporters" clubs. Or that even the most rational supporters have distinct appetites and aversions to greater, or lesser degrees. As for myself I have no such thing towards Millwall or Spurs as I'm neither a dinosaur or tribal sheep but, unilke the vast majority who hold such sentiments, am au fait with the social history the underpins the aggression. Although there are club supporters that I have a distinct distaste for ,e.g. only to be reminded just last Saturday why I have suchlike aversions to Leeds supporters collectively. Although, to be fair, I also encountered a few individually and in one case actually helped me when I unbeknowingly dropped my mobile phone. Must say though that my experience of Millwall supporters has been the opposite. Although that may have been different if they had not known my affiliations ?

I suppose the point that I'm labouring to make is that it's only a tiny minority who involve themselves in such behaviour as last Tuesday, and a further minority who support it by offering tacit consent in not condemning it. But unfortunately what we don't hear is of the thousands that were chanting "off,off" when the morons invaded the pitch and the overwhelming majority would be, and were, disgusted at any amount of brainless violence.

[bifftastic]

In fact to call it a rivallry compares it to other rivallries like Arsenal Tottenham for instance. Hatred is a more accurate term. It is one of those self-perpetuating, nobody can really pur their finger on why, kind of things. But I can assure you it has been much worse than it was this time.

It isn't even a rivalry at all and hardly has ever been as the two clubs hardly ever meet. I assume that a rilvary is when there's an actual jostling for position in the same league. Yes, there were even fatal encounters when both sets of hoollies. But most supporters were unaffected by this as it was tear-up by a very small minority. This one , however, was in the full glow of publicity during a game and instigated mostly by one side. In the 70's and 80's they were mostly pre-arranged meets outside of the grounds

By rivalry i did not mean a rivalry between the two clubs that needs them to be competing on the football field, I meant between the two sets of people. As for pre-arranged meets in the 70's and 80's ...have a look at this footage from the Old Kent Road from the era you are talking about

This one, I believe, was 'brewing' over the last few months.

What leads you to think this ?

there have been clashes between west ham and millwall ie 'visits' to certain pubs, mainly by younger lads

... if this fixture ever happens again I hope it is policed as heavily as the four previous ones (all of which I attended). There was the hatred, but there was also the policing which kept everyone more or less apart and no-one was seriously injured.

I attended those games at UP too. And yes , the amount of anticipation did ensure that nothing actually happened in and around the ground. The reason that this one was so ill-prepared is all about complacency I think. We had all thought -- perhaps naively -- it mostly a thing of the past. However, I have my hypothesis as to why this kind of think should raise it's ugly head again at this time. Much in the same way as the emergence of the far right in England -- both are phenomena that arise during economic downturns.

I don't think the economy has much to do with it really, nor does politics.

I'm by no means condoning what happened, rather pointing out that this enmity exists and if such fixtures are to be played then there is a way that they can be succesfully held without anyone ending up in hospital.

Silly to deny that there is animalistic hatred between various "supporters" clubs. Or that even the most rational supporters have distinct appetites and aversions to greater, or lesser degrees. As for myself I have no such thing towards Millwall or Spurs as I'm neither a dinosaur or tribal sheep but, unilke the vast majority who hold such sentiments, am au fait with the social history the underpins the aggression. Although there are club supporters that I have a distinct distaste for ,e.g. only to be reminded just last Saturday why I have suchlike aversions to Leeds supporters collectively. Although, to be fair, I also encountered a few individually and in one case actually helped me when I unbeknowingly dropped my mobile phone. Must say though that my experience of Millwall supporters has been the opposite. Although that may have been different if they had not known my affiliations ?

I didn't deny the hatred exists. When i was in Germany for the world cup I was walking (alone) with my England/West Ham flag in Cologne when I turned a corner and saw ten or so Millwall fans with a giant 'Belvedere Lions' flag... there was a pause, some eye contact, a small verbal exchange...then we spent the rest of the afternoon drinking together! Also we were approached on a few occasions by young lads from various english teams inquiring as to our desire to 'kick it off' with the Deutsche Polizei! we all unanimuosly declined and told those enquiring to grow up.

I suppose the point that I'm labouring to make is that it's only a tiny minority who involve themselves in such behaviour as last Tuesday, and a further minority who support it by offering tacit consent in not condemning it. But unfortunately what we don't hear is of the thousands that were chanting "off,off" when the morons invaded the pitch and the overwhelming majority would be, and were, disgusted at any amount of brainless violence.

I agree completely that the pitch invasion was opposed by the vast majority of people in the ground, i think everyone got caught up in the moment and because west ham were losing till the last two or three minutes, things spilled over. Also the rumour mill had spread the idea that someone had been stabbed outside the ground and rumour mills being what they are it all just went mad!

Also, everyone had been drinking all day in 'preparation' and otherwise reasonably well behaved people lost it.

[EastSaxCol]

Whilst not agreeing with everything written here, it does offer a different perspective to one that you'd find in the press and other media. And there are some witty comments added . For example ...

"This fetishisation of thuggery verges on the homoerotic."

Comment by JimPage — 28 August, 2009 @ 11:48 am

“This fetishisation of thuggery verges on the homoerotic.”

What’s homoerotic about a bunch of drunk blokes with their shirts off wrestling with each other after a football match? I just don’t see it myself.

Comment by Ray — 28 August, 2009

At least I think the reply was intentionally ironic

But my favourite and one that also sums up my own stance ...

These people are wanke_rs, please stop theorising and trying to come up with a middle class solution. They are tossers, we all have them in our towns and however you want to analize them the bottom line is they are tossers.

Comment by tony wigan — 28 August, 2009

[Geekfreaklover]

Reminds me of a tough stint as an English teacher in a rough innner-city London school. This one class just couldn't behave. Fighting, swearing the whole thing. I thought I was doing something wrong until a fellow teacher said - 'that class are just ****'s mate, Theres nothing any of us can do about it.'

Same thing with football holigans, nothing we can really do to change it apart from not take part in it.

[EastSaxCol]

I don't think the economy has much to do with it really, nor does politics.

Ah, are you one of those that I previously mentioned who are in denial of the origins of the antipathy between West Ham and Millwall, West Ham towards Spurs ? They both were very Political/political in there own ways.

I think it a mistake not to take any phenomenon whatsoever outside of it's environment. Things even only loosely related to football -- like thuggery -- doesn't occur in a vacuum of its own. Perhaps I'm just too influenced by the Buddhist concept of co-dependent origination. Thank you Thailand.

There have been clashes between west ham and millwall ie 'visits' to certain pubs, mainly by younger lads/

I've seen nothing whatsoever that's even hinted at this.

[Xangsamhua]

I think it a mistake not to take any phenomenon whatsoever outside of it's environment. Things even only loosely related to football -- like thuggery -- doesn't occur in a vacuum of its own. Perhaps I'm just too influenced by the Buddhist concept of co-dependent origination. Thank you Thailand.

Can there be a special Thai Visa award for using the term "co-dependent origination" in a post about football thuggery in the East End?

[EastSaxCol]

I think it a mistake not to take any phenomenon whatsoever outside of it's environment. Things even only loosely related to football -- like thuggery -- doesn't occur in a vacuum of its own. Perhaps I'm just too influenced by the Buddhist concept of co-dependent origination. Thank you Thailand.

Can there be a special Thai Visa award for using the term "co-dependent origination" in a post about football thuggery in the East End?

[bifftastic]

I don't think the economy has much to do with it really, nor does politics.

Ah, are you one of those that I previously mentioned who are in denial of the origins of the antipathy between West Ham and Millwall, West Ham towards Spurs ? They both were very Political/political in there own ways.

I assume you're talking about the dockers strike when those on the souht side of the river are supposed to have 'scabbed'? What I was referring to was the allusion that 'far right politics' was involved, the disenfranchisement of youth theory that some people put forward as a reason behind football violence. i don't think it is true... in the late 70's early 80's there were people who just loved a scrap who would search out other like-minded individuals at football matches, this then created it's own 'buzz' and became self-perpetuating. i agree that nothing exosts outside of it's environment but to say that any far righ or other 'flavour' of politics in the political party sense had much to do with it is, i think, wrong. Yes the NF did try to make it their own to a degree but, certainly at West Ham, were unsuccesfull.

I think it a mistake not to take any phenomenon whatsoever outside of it's environment. Things even only loosely related to football -- like thuggery -- doesn't occur in a vacuum of its own. Perhaps I'm just too influenced by the Buddhist concept of co-dependent origination. Thank you Thailand.

There have been clashes between west ham and millwall ie 'visits' to certain pubs, mainly by younger lads/

I've seen nothing whatsoever that's even hinted at this.

you may not have 'seen' anything that has even hinted at this but I can assure you it has happened. Anyway, where would you 'see' it unless you were there or had been told about it by people who were there? A bust up in a pub in bermondsey isn't usually widely reported.

I am interested in your view of the origins of these rivalries btw :-) also your view on how politics is specifically involved. Unemployment? Socially deprived areas? It would depend on your opinion as to what deprived would mean. I think both Millwall and West Ham's core heartlands have very similar histories and that definitely does have a bearing on the value systems of the people who grow up there which, in turn, has an influence on their behaviour.

I'd be pleased to continue this discussion if you would :-)

[EastSaxCol]

I am interested in your view of the origins of these rivalries btw :-)

Well, less my views, more generally held knowledge in fact that the origins of the antipathy with Millwall began during the 1926 General Strike, when dockers working in the Katherine dock on the Thames (north side) refused to unload a ship. So it went over to the Surrey Docks ( in Rotherhithe on the south bank) whose dockers unloaded it and were henceforth known as "Millwall scabs". I can even remember being told by someone whose Grandad was a Katherine docker that if he ever met a Millwall scab then he should "kill him".

The diislike of Tottenham likewise has its origins in working-class politics , albeit less clearly defined and more embedded in immigration issues. When there was a massive influx of Ashkenazi Jews, fleeing pogroms in Eastern Europe towards the end of the 19th century. You may be aware that these migrants set up industries mainly in tailoring and shoemaking, wherein the bosses that accumulated disportionate wealth to their fellow, persecuted immigrant employees, escaped the toxic environment of the East End in moving to the leafier and cleaner NW London and became heavily involved with Tottenham Hotspur. The resentment by those that were left behind was in feeling exploited by those who had suffered the same persecution, and had to remain in the East End by necessity, and identified with their local team. i.e. West Ham United

Anecdotal maybe, but interesting nevertheless. From an early age -- before I knew the above piece of social history -- I had acquired a strong aversion to the Spurs when I was a teenager, based upon being told that they were a "decent club" (middle-class) and West Ham a "rough club" (working-class). I thought this unique to my own experience, until I heard of others tell that similar was the origins of their resentment too.

However, the above history concerning the origins of the enmity towards Millwall and Spurs, isn't that palatable to the newer generation of fairly right-wing West Ham supporters who would like to ignore the club's fairly left following in days gone by. It's similarly the case when relating the days when there was a visible West Ham/Celtic presence at West Ham -- I can remember West Ham/Celtic hats being sold outside of the ground at every home match, and in fact was the sole reason that I took an interest in Celtic, who then became my Scottish team. Again this past affinity could based upon both being from the east end of their respective cities. Although I tend to think it more to do with the influx of Irish weavers who migrated into the East End.

Of course as already indicated, all of this may be unpalatable to many the new breed of supporter. A minority will feel pround of the social history -- but the greater will be indifferent to this heritage. Others will continue in their hatred nevertheless, like headless chickens, only being driven by blind irrationality and not giving a toss about the traditions of the club that they purport to support.

So there you have a social history lesson in a nutshell -- more or less.

PostScript

ou may not have 'seen' anything that has even hinted at this but I can assure you it has happened. Anyway, where would you 'see' it unless you were there or had been told about it by people who were there? A bust up in a pub in bermondsey isn't usually widely reported.

Too much like a conspiracy theory for me mate. Even if there was a small level of organised confrontation which ,like myself, most reject out of hand -- including former ICF 'luminaries' -- it certainly wasn't on any level of "Firm" meet. But more to do with being "up for it" wherever, and fuelled by alcohol. To think it anything to do with fisticuffs elsewhere is, I think, fanciful, as no one could tell that there'd be a draw with the two teams meeting.

[Xangsamhua]

I am interested in your view of the origins of these rivalries btw :-)

Well, less my views, more generally held knowledge in fact that the origins of the antipathy with Millwall began during the 1926 General Strike, when dockers working in the Katherine dock on the Thames (north side) refused to unload a ship. So it went over to the Surrey Docks ( in Rotherhithe on the south bank) whose dockers unloaded it and were henceforth known as "Millwall scabs". I can even remember being told by someone whose Grandad was a Katherine docker that if he ever met a Millwall scab then he should "kill him".

The diislike of Tottenham likewise has its origins in working-class politics , albeit less clearly defined and more embedded in immigration issues. When there was a massive influx of Ashkenazi Jews, fleeing pogroms in Eastern Europe towards the end of the 19th century. You may be aware that these migrants set up industries mainly in tailoring and shoemaking, wherein the bosses that accumulated disportionate wealth to their fellow, persecuted immigrant employees, escaped the toxic environment of the East End in moving to the leafier and cleaner NW London and became heavily involved with Tottenham Hotspur. The resentment by those that were left behind was in feeling exploited by those who had suffered the same persecution, and had to remain in the East End by necessity, and identified with their local team. i.e. West Ham United

Anecdotal maybe, but interesting nevertheless. From an early age -- before I knew the above piece of social history -- I had acquired a strong aversion to the Spurs when I was a teenager, based upon being told that they were a "decent club" (middle-class) and West Ham a "rough club" (working-class). I thought this unique to my own experience, until I heard of others tell that similar was the origins of their resentment too.

However, the above history concerning the origins of the enmity towards Millwall and Spurs, isn't that palatable to the newer generation of fairly right-wing West Ham supporters who would like to ignore the club's fairly left following in days gone by. It's similarly the case when relating the days when there was a visible West Ham/Celtic presence at West Ham -- I can remember West Ham/Celtic hats being sold outside of the ground at every home match, and in fact was the sole reason that I took an interest in Celtic, who then became my Scottish team. Again this past affinity could based upon both being from the east end of their respective cities. Although I tend to think it more to do with the influx of Irish weavers who migrated into the East End.

Of course as already indicated, all of this may be unpalatable to many the new breed of supporter. A minority will feel pround of the social history -- but the greater will be indifferent to this heritage. Others will continue in their hatred nevertheless, like headless chickens, only being driven by blind irrationality and not giving a toss about the traditions of the club that they purport to support.

So there you have a social history lesson in a nutshell -- more or less.

PostScript

ou may not have 'seen' anything that has even hinted at this but I can assure you it has happened. Anyway, where would you 'see' it unless you were there or had been told about it by people who were there? A bust up in a pub in bermondsey isn't usually widely reported.

Too much like a conspiracy theory for me mate. Even if there was a small level of organised confrontation which ,like myself, most reject out of hand -- including former ICF 'luminaries' -- it certainly wasn't on any level of "Firm" meet. But more to do with being "up for it" wherever, and fuelled by alcohol. To think it anything to do with fisticuffs elsewhere is, I think, fanciful, as no one could tell that there'd be a draw with the two teams meeting.

Very interesting social history. Can you tell me what support West Ham gets in the counties beyond the East End - Essex and Kent?

[EastSaxCol]

Very interesting social history. Can you tell me what support West Ham gets in the counties beyond the East End - Essex and Kent?]/quote]

Well that's right. West Ham support does seem mostly concentrated in East London and SE Essex then Essex/East Anglia, with a much smaller overlapping over into Kent and even Surrey. From what I can gather, a small support does extend into other home counties and other areas of London. I've even known Scottish supporters and a few from Bristol , Exeter and Cornwall. Then there's Barack Obama of course.

But you'd be right in thinking that the main areas of support comes from East London and Essex.

[suiging]

The most fanatical West Ham fan I ever met came from Portsmouth. Boy was he brave getting on the train in full regalia every week......Top man.

Sorry to have brought up a non-violent issue, but I did like him, and admired his bravery and I support Wolves !!!

[EastSaxCol]

The most fanatical West Ham fan I ever met came from Portsmouth.

This is something that's occurred to me time and time again. The most fanatical, who proclaim most loudly their undying love for the club, etc, etc. Actually come from outside of the catchment areas. My thoughts are that it's overcompensation for not being 'naturally' West Ham and need to prove something other. Those that do come from West Ham areas, the ones that I like and I think are the majority, are those with a healthy cynicism and understated loyalty.

I could be wrong. But ever since the inception of internet fan bases , I couldn't help but notice ...

[Xangsamhua]

The most fanatical West Ham fan I ever met came from Portsmouth.

This is something that's occurred to me time and time again. The most fanatical, who proclaim most loudly their undying love for the club, etc, etc. Actually come from outside of the catchment areas. My thoughts are that it's overcompensation for not being 'naturally' West Ham and need to prove something other. Those that do come from West Ham areas, the ones that I like and I think are the majority, are those with a healthy cynicism and understated loyalty.

I could be wrong. But ever since the inception of internet fan bases , I couldn't help but notice ...

Yes, origins must mean something. I only support West Ham as my Premier League team, but if my childhood team, Notts County, ever gets back to the top flight, I'll have two teams to follow and County would be my first team. Is that legit? Not the stuff of martyrs is it.

[MSingh]

The most fanatical West Ham fan I ever met came from Portsmouth.

This is something that's occurred to me time and time again. The most fanatical, who proclaim most loudly their undying love for the club, etc, etc. Actually come from outside of the catchment areas. My thoughts are that it's overcompensation for not being 'naturally' West Ham and need to prove something other. Those that do come from West Ham areas, the ones that I like and I think are the majority, are those with a healthy cynicism and understated loyalty.

I could be wrong. But ever since the inception of internet fan bases , I couldn't help but notice ...

That's a good shout actually HH...

[Geekfreaklover]

It's fair to say that a lot of Millwall supporters come from Kent. What other choice have they got? Gillingham? Palace? Charlton? - I support the club as I was born in Lewisham and my grandad supported Millwall my dad followed Millwall as did my friends.

I think it was Frank skinner who said in his autobiograhpy that to understand which football club to support you need a map and a ruler. Make a mark on the map and then caluculate with the ruler where the nearest football club is.

Has there been any action taken after The other night? I've not heard anything about fines or sanctions of any kind.

[EastSaxCol]

I think it was Frank skinner who said in his autobiograhpy that to understand which football club to support you need a map and a ruler. Make a mark on the map and then caluculate with the ruler where the nearest football club is.

Don't need all that palaver noways fella. The nearest club can easily be checked here?. Me, born and bred just under 7 miles from Upton Park. Now 11 miles from Colchester, or about 2,000 miles or 60 klm from Prachuap Khiri Khan Football Club, depending.

[Geekfreaklover]

I think it was Frank skinner who said in his autobiograhpy that to understand which football club to support you need a map and a ruler. Make a mark on the map and then caluculate with the ruler where the nearest football club is.

Don't need all that palaver noways fella. The nearest club can easily be checked here?. Me, born and bred just under 7 miles from Upton Park. Now 11 miles from Colchester, or about 2,000 miles or 60 klm from Prachuap Khiri Khan Football Club, depending.

Great link - i used to be se16 then tn13 now 10230.

Must get my act in order and find a Bangkok club to support.

[highchol]

last week east landan, last night norfff landan, leagues apart but similar result for millwall. Hope the litters of small cats didnt cause any bovver.

[MSingh]

last week east landan, last night norfff landan, leagues apart but similar result for millwall. Hope the litters of small cats didnt cause any bovver.

Barnet ??