Us Citibank Double Dipping

[Gary A]

I just made a wire transfer from US Citibank to Siam Commercial. The Citibank web site plainly says an international transfer costs a flat $30. What they don't tell you is that they then deduct another $15 from the transfer itself for a total of $45. I sent an email and complained. I was told they have no control as far as what another bank charges for the transfer. Apparently the left hand Citibank doesn't know what the right hand Citibank is doing. Citibank handles the entire transaction and actually steals an extra $15. I sent another email asking where on their web site I could see where it says there is an additional charge.

ADDED - I ALWAYS transfer US dollars.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Gary A

[Carib]

Didn't the receiving bank deduct the $15.-- ??

[Gary A]

Didn't the receiving bank deduct the $15.-- ??

The entire $45 is a Citibank charge. $30 up front and $15 behind the back. Siam Commercial has a charge also. About $15 dollars. (500 baht).

[mahjongguy]

Just to clarify: your money ended up at Siam Commercial in a USD account? How did Siam Commercial deduct 500 baht from a USD account?

[Gary A]

Just to clarify: your money ended up at Siam Commercial in a USD account? How did Siam Commercial deduct 500 baht from a USD account?

If you don't wire US dollars, Citibank will charge you MUCH extra to make the currency exchange. Their currency exchange fee for an ATM transaction is 3 percent. The best exchange rate is the Thailand onshore rate. I DON'T have a US dollar account in Thailand.

[cmsally]

A lot of banks have a choice when making a transfer online as to whether sending or receiving bank pays for receiving charges(sorry a bit jumbled but that is what it approx. says). I always let the bank here pay for receiving fees for precisely for that reason, a high likelihood of paying twice.

Sorry don't know if Citibank has that option and if a tel. fax transfer maybe they don't let you know.

[opalhort]

I don't think Citibank is to be blamed for this.

We have this problem all the time when customers send us $ or €

If the originating bank has an inter-bank account with our bank (TFB) then the only charge is at the originating bank, which some customers pay, and a 500Baht fee at our bank.

If there is no such inter-bank account with our bank then it usually goes via a bank in Hong Kong or Singapore and those banks all deduct a commission of 10-20$/€

We have had transfers via multiple banks and in one case lost almost 100€ on a 2,000€ transfer.

Who says banks are cheap?

Gary, since you use Citibank which has a branch here in TH it was probably the BKK branch that deducted the 15$ before forwarding it to SCB.

opalhort

[Kf6vci]

This is customary - HSBC UK gives me the choice of paying all fees, or just the 15 or was it 17 pounds. But there IS an additional fee at the other end.

Good point - hope others are noticing it and likewise transferring currency, not THB!

Don't sweat the fees, otherwise SCB or XY would have taken their cut likewise.

Chris

[Carmine6]

With Citibank, I think I was told that another bank in NY (JPMorgan??) is the corespondent bank and charges that $15.

For transfers to Bangkok Bank, Fidelity uses JPMorgan for SWIFT transfers instead of Bangkok Bank NY and it costs $15. I was told they use JPMorgan because Fidelity and Bangkonk Bank both have accounts at JPMorgan.

[mahjongguy]

Gary, since you use Citibank which has a branch here in TH it was probably the BKK branch that deducted the 15$ before forwarding it to SCB.

I agree, it is very likely that Citibank TH, acting as an intermediary, took out the US$15.

Notes:

1) Citibank TH is NOT a "branch" of Citibank USA. It is a Thai bank which franchises the Citi name. Only the ATMs have any connection to Citibank USA. Once you go inside and up to a teller, they cannot help you with anything related to your US accounts.

2) Because you were sending USD to a THB-based account, there really was no need for an intermediary, especially for a huge bank like Citi. This seems to be a sweetheart deal for the local franchise.

3) Citi's "$30 plus possibly more" is average for sending a wire.

4) SCB's 500 baht for receiving is standard for Thai banks.

5) My bank, Wells Fargo, allows setting a permanent transfer record to a specified receiving account. Has to be done in person at a branch. After that, a 45-second phone call specifying the amount gets your money across in as little as 24 hours for only US$25 from Wells.

Five years ago I opened an account at Citibank, the once-pioneer of electronic banking, expressly for the purpose of withdrawing cash from their Sathorn Road ATMs. I came here, it didn't work. They never could get it to work.

[Sabaidii]

I agree, wire transfer fees are a rip-off.

Unless you need the funds immediately, I find that the ACH transfer to be a more economical way of transferring funds into my account in Thailand. This usually takes from 1-3 days but has much lower fees involved . Once your account information, routing number, etc, has been been set up with your US financial instiution, transfers can be initiated on-line and you will get the TT rate in effect at the time the dolllars are received in Thailand.

[mahjongguy]

...I find that the ACH transfer to be a more economical way of transferring funds into my account in Thailand.

Isn't that only available with Bangkok Bank?

It's a good deal if the exchange rate given matches that of the other Thai banks.

[Sabaidii]

...I find that the ACH transfer to be a more economical way of transferring funds into my account in Thailand.

Isn't that only available with Bangkok Bank?

It's a good deal if the exchange rate given matches that of the other Thai banks.

I am not sure if Bangkok Bank is the only one or not, but that is the bank I use.

Having the branch in NYC helps to facilitate things. The TT rate is usually within a few satang of the other banks and is higher than for cash.

[Naam]

Just to clarify: your money ended up at Siam Commercial in a USD account? How did Siam Commercial deduct 500 baht from a USD account?

If you don't wire US dollars, Citibank will charge you MUCH extra to make the currency exchange. Their currency exchange fee for an ATM transaction is 3 percent. The best exchange rate is the Thailand onshore rate. I DON'T have a US dollar account in Thailand.

that was the case. nowadays, even if this fairy tale is repeated another hundred times it does notnecessarily become true or apply to all offshore banks. since more than a year i am getting better rates offshore and transfer Baht.

[Gary A]

Here is the final email from Citibank;

Mr. *******, in our previous message, we indicated to you that one or more intermediary banks may be used in the completion of your wire transfer and that the intermediary bank may also assess a fee. I would like to add that the intermediary bank may also be our Citibank, New York office, but not always. In this situation, you were assessed a $30 wire transfer fee and the $15 intermediary bank fee which also happened to be assessed by Citibank. I understand how you may feel that Citibank is purposely debiting your account twice for the same transaction. Regrettably, these are standard fees assessed when processing a wire transfer internationally. Other financial institutions may assess higher fees when they are used as the intermediary bank. Our disclosure does not specify an amount for the fee as each financial institution may assess a different amount. I apologize for any inconvenience.

[Gary A]

Just to clarify: your money ended up at Siam Commercial in a USD account? How did Siam Commercial deduct 500 baht from a USD account?

If you don't wire US dollars, Citibank will charge you MUCH extra to make the currency exchange. Their currency exchange fee for an ATM transaction is 3 percent. The best exchange rate is the Thailand onshore rate. I DON'T have a US dollar account in Thailand.

that was the case. nowadays, even if this fairy tale is repeated another hundred times it does notnecessarily become true or apply to all offshore banks. since more than a year i am getting better rates offshore and transfer Baht.

So, you are saying that Citibank MAY have given me a better exchange rate than the 33.9 I got from Siam Commercial? I don't know for sure but I seriously doubt it.

[mahjongguy]

I don't know for sure but I seriously doubt it.

Having gotten thoroughly ripped off the one and only time I had baht sent over by my US bank, I'm doubtful too. Maybe Naam can provide more detail as to why what so many of us believe is a fairy tale.

For sure, it is difficult to get definitive proof. None of us is going to make a series of transactions that are engineered to provide a conclusive answer.

Notes:

- Thai bank rates change at least 4 times a day. Offshore rates change by the moment. It might be impossible to capture the comparative rates at the right moment.

- Fees that are undocumented but deducted from the transferred amount are not unheard of.

- Many currency exchange sites only list market price. This is the average of the current Buy and Sell prices. So, the actual Buy price may be 10 or 15 satang less (i. e. worse).

- Because fees are flat rate and the exchange rate is not, one can only compare like amounts. A transfer of a large amount (e.g. US$30,000) is more sensitive to small differences in the fx rate.

[Gary A]

Assuming the exchange rate of 33.9 baht per dollar, it appears that Siam Commercial bank's fee was 204 baht. The amount of the transfer was $27,485. There is no entry in my bank book of any fee.

[mahjongguy]

Assuming the exchange rate of 33.9 baht per dollar, it appears that Siam Commercial bank's fee was 204 baht. The amount of the transfer was $27,485. There is no entry in my bank book of any fee.

Amounts of US$20,000 or more are given a slightly better exchange rate by the wire desk than that posted as the TT rate on the bank's website. In your case, I'm certain that this resulted in your 500 baht fee appearing to be only 204 baht.

[Naam]

Just to clarify: your money ended up at Siam Commercial in a USD account? How did Siam Commercial deduct 500 baht from a USD account?

If you don't wire US dollars, Citibank will charge you MUCH extra to make the currency exchange. Their currency exchange fee for an ATM transaction is 3 percent. The best exchange rate is the Thailand onshore rate. I DON'T have a US dollar account in Thailand.

that was the case. nowadays, even if this fairy tale is repeated another hundred times it does notnecessarily become true or apply to all offshore banks. since more than a year i am getting better rates offshore and transfer Baht.

So, you are saying that Citibank MAY have given me a better exchange rate than the 33.9 I got from Siam Commercial? I don't know for sure but I seriously doubt it.

i don't know about Citi Gary and referred only to my (various) banks in Singapore, Luxembourg and Switzerland. what i was trying to say is "check the offered rate buying Baht offshore and try to compare with the onshore rate". it does not pay for peanuts amount but i think it pays to check when transfers are made exceeding the value of 20k dollars.