Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[IvanDobsky]

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

Maybe rain WILL fall and they don't want to pay to get everyone wet....

Whatever Its getting very close to booking dates where people have to decide where to go and if Thailand wants to have another screwed up tourist season well, they are doing it the right way. All these stupid demonstrations should stop

and ISAN is the first part of the country to feel the real negative effects....

Absolutely.

I'm sick and tired of the different mobs intent on securing power for their leaders at the expense of Thailand's image abroad and progress at home.

I live in the north and know one passionate red supporter and half a dozen to a dozen who sympathise with their 'cause'. I also know an army family who are passionately yellow and it seems that a sizeable proportion of the doctors and nurses here are yellow too. The family I married into seem to be divided three ways, some red, fewer yellow, most anti red and yellow whose sympathy for either evaporated after the airport occupation and the Songkran violence.

Most people here seem to be 'Nah beua' while it seems to be less than five percent (at least face to face) who have strong feelings either way.

My command of the Thai language is not sufficient to be able to remember the equivilent of 'United we stand, divided we fall' but I think many understand its relevance.

[ricogear27]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

Leaving the issue of violent demostration out of it, a red shirt would say that Thaksin, the most popular politician in Thailand ever, was removed from office in a coup which was justified by extensive street protests by the yellow shirts and the resulting national instability.

Following the interim appointed military government's year in office, those representing Thaksin were again overwhelmingly voted into office but were not allowed to govern. The democratically elected PM was removed from office for wielding a spatula on TV, which could be called a bit of a stitch-up. There then followed an extraodinary shift in the balance of power when a pro-Thaksin faction crossed the floor to the Democrats who then headed a new coalition government.

If you were a red shirt. one of a huge majority of ordinary poor people who want a government that will have regards to its interests, would you not now be raging mad? Would you not want to demonstrate on the streets? Would you not feel that democracy had been denied to you and that doing what the yellow shorts did before you and doing it better is your only way out.

How sad that Thai politics has come down to a personality cult rather than a debate about contending issues. How ironic that the champion of the poor is one such as Thaksin. How sad that the politician with the strong democratic mandate is not Abhisit.

It's all so very, very sad.

If there's a lesson it's perhaps that (like regime change in Iraq), a coup achieves nothing except increasing strife.

Where can it all go from here?

Andrew

Agreed.

As a neutral observer with no axe to grind, I would say that contrary to what the supporters of both sides are saying, democracy is only a peripheral factor in all of this.

It is patently obvious that, whatever the merits of their argument, the PAD and their supporters have no interest whatsoever in democracy, a fact which is patently obvious to any intelligent and impartial observer. You cannot exclude a large portion of the populace on the premise that they are too uneducated and too stupid to participate in the process. That is contemptible. I can fully understand why red shirt protestors are hopping mad about this. Like it or not, Thaksin was the democratically elected leader, and his ascent to power threatened the status quo, which is dominated by the so-called "social elites". It is a thin veneer of democracy that has been painted over what is effectively still a feudal society.

On the flip side, the red shirt cause has become less and less about true democracy, and more and more about the cult of Thaksin, who is as flawed and power hungry as any of the yellow shirt leaders. In addition the reds propensity toward violence is undeniable and disturbing. As many have correctly pointed out here, a peaceful demonstration could have been held, if that was their true intention. I understand that for many, bereft of the resources and powerful sympathisers available to the PAD which enabled them to paralyse the country and hold thousands of foreigners hostage last year, violence may seem like the only recourse to challenge the establishment forces that stand firmly in the path of democratic reform.

In summation, as a believer in democracy I am offended by the actions of the PAD, and while I am in sympathy with the red shirt arguments regarding Thaksin as the only truly democratically elected leader with a real mandate to lead, I have so many reservations about their methods and their leader that I regard them merely as the lesser of two evils. When you add into the mix concerns over the health of his majesty, well, I think there is one hel_l of a storm looming on the horizon.

There can be no winners in this situation, only losers. As Andrew said, its all so, so sad.

Edited August 29, 2009 by ricogear27

[Maiya]

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

Maybe rain WILL fall and they don't want to pay to get everyone wet....

Whatever Its getting very close to booking dates where people have to decide where to go and if Thailand wants to have another screwed up tourist season well, they are doing it the right way. All these stupid demonstrations should stop

and ISAN is the first part of the country to feel the real negative effects....

Absolutely.

I'm sick and tired of the different mobs intent on securing power for their leaders at the expense of Thailand's image abroad and progress at home.

I live in the north and know one passionate red supporter and half a dozen to a dozen who sympathise with their 'cause'. I also know an army family who are passionately yellow and it seems that a sizeable proportion of the doctors and nurses here are yellow too. The family I married into seem to be divided three ways, some red, fewer yellow, most anti red and yellow whose sympathy for either evaporated after the airport occupation and the Songkran violence.

Most people here seem to be 'Nah beua' while it seems to be less than five percent (at least face to face) who have strong feelings either way.

My command of the Thai language is not sufficient to be able to remember the equivilent of 'United we stand, divided we fall' but I think many understand its relevance.

So, IvanDobsky............"If you are sick and tired of different mobs.......' Why do you pay any attention?

Farangs are unaffected by the internal machinations of Thai politics. Leave that to the Thai's. I write on this board a lot about Thai politics, because I am a political junkie. Just this evening I was visiting with a Farang, who speak exactly like you, and he just remain uninvolved.

Fortunately, it doesn't affect Farangs. The only time it affected Farangs was the airport thing....For that, you need to take issue with the anti-democratic perpetrators and their supporters. But all the other stuff, the Government house, Pattaya, Songhkran, etc. not affect you Farangs. Just stay away from the areas where Thai's deal with their political disagreements.

Let the Thai people solve their political problems - the Thai pro-democracy movement have every right to protect their electoral privileges and to challenge those who are trying to take it away. If that bothers you Farangs, go somewhere else. And I mean that with all due respect.

Farangs can remain totally uninvolved if they want. Only people like me and other political junkies who discuss this stuff ad-nauseum on boards such as this are involved because we choose to be. We are not "sick and tired of it" as we enjoy discussing political machinations wherever they occur.

So if you are sick and tired of it, just disengage...simple.

Your referencing of classes of people and who they support are definitely on the two sides of Thai political divide: army/military pro yellow, Doctors/nurses pro-yellow, no surprise there. I could expound at length about why that is.

I keep harping away on here, about getting away from describing the political divide by referencing affinity colors of their clothing. This is so shallow and simplistic, and shows no respect to the ideological basis of each. They have passionately held opinions and platforms. Show them some respect and not dismissively by referencing them by colors. They have a belief system. Get away from the Thaksin-hating stuff, and begin to discuss this political divide according to what separates it ideologically........that is the thinking person's approach. Dividing this national political dialogue into pro-democracy and anti-democracy camps works for me. I can put most political elements into one of those two categories, even those who say all politicians are bad, and a pox on all their houses.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Maiya

[IvanDobsky]

Maybe the money not came?

No money no rally.....

Maybe rain WILL fall and they don't want to pay to get everyone wet....

Whatever Its getting very close to booking dates where people have to decide where to go and if Thailand wants to have another screwed up tourist season well, they are doing it the right way. All these stupid demonstrations should stop

and ISAN is the first part of the country to feel the real negative effects....

Absolutely.

I'm sick and tired of the different mobs intent on securing power for their leaders at the expense of Thailand's image abroad and progress at home.

I live in the north and know one passionate red supporter and half a dozen to a dozen who sympathise with their 'cause'. I also know an army family who are passionately yellow and it seems that a sizeable proportion of the doctors and nurses here are yellow too. The family I married into seem to be divided three ways, some red, fewer yellow, most anti red and yellow whose sympathy for either evaporated after the airport occupation and the Songkran violence.

Most people here seem to be 'Nah beua' while it seems to be less than five percent (at least face to face) who have strong feelings either way.

My command of the Thai language is not sufficient to be able to remember the equivilent of 'United we stand, divided we fall' but I think many understand its relevance.

So, IvanDobsky............"If you are sick and tired of different mobs.......' Why do you pay any attention?

Farangs are unaffected by the internal machinations of Thai politics. Leave that to the Thai's. I write on this board a lot about Thai politics, because I am a political junkie. Just this evening I was visiting with a Farang, who speak exactly like you, and he just remain uninvolved.

Fortunately, it doesn't affect Farangs. The only time it affected Farangs was the airport thing....For that, you need to take issue with the anti-democratic perpetrators and their supporters. But all the other stuff, the Government house, Pattaya, Songhkran, etc. not affect you Farangs. Just stay away from the areas where Thai's deal with their political disagreements.

Let the Thai people solve their political problems - the Thai pro-democracy movement have every right to protect their electoral privileges and to challenge those who are trying to take it away. If that bothers you Farangs, go somewhere else. And I mean that with all due respect.

Farangs can remain totally uninvolved if they want. Only people like me and other political junkies who discuss this stuff ad-nauseum on boards such as this are involved because we choose to be. We are not "sick and tired of it" as we enjoy discussing political machinations wherever they occur.

So if you are sick and tired of it, just disengage...simple.

Your referencing of classes of people and who they support are definitely on the two sides of Thai political divide: army/military pro yellow, Doctors/nurses pro-yellow, no surprise there. I could expound at length about why that is.

I keep harping away on here, about getting away from describing the political divide by referencing affinity colors of their clothing. This is so shallow and simplistic, and shows no respect to the ideological basis of each. They have passionately held opinions and platforms. Show them some respect and not dismissively by referencing them by colors. They have a belief system. Get away from the Thaksin-hating stuff, and begin to discuss this political divide according to what separates it ideologically........that is the thinking person's approach. Dividing this national political dialogue into pro-democracy and anti-democracy camps works for me. I can put most political elements into one of those two categories, even those who say all politicians are bad, and a pox on all their houses.

Nice, thank you so much. If I don't support the Reds, I should go somewhere else? "With all due respect"?

What makes you think I hate Thaksin? I didn't mention him in my post. I know people who support both sides, it doesn't mean I support either.

Political affinity defined by clothing, shallow and simplistic? Yes, we agree on something.

The violence during Songkran affected me personally because of ex-students of mine in tears because of the violence outside their dorms. The occupation of the airport affected me personally because a friend could not fly into the country.

Disengage? Because I am a foreigner who lives here, I have no right to feel sick and tired about things affecting my friends, family and work-colleagues? Are you for real?

[noithip]

Maiya, Maiya (illusion?)

Maiya is a female name, isn't it fervert?

Pro and anti democracy, ey? It's all so simple.

What do this stupid Farang even care! But wait, maybe it's good for the "political junkie" to have farangs that care in a farang forum that keep people like you working!

Edited August 29, 2009 by noithip

[Maiya]

"Am I for real...."........I most certainly am IvanDobsky......

But don't get me wrong. I was not challenging you in any way. My point was simply that Farangs dont need to get their "shirt in a knot" over Thai politics.

Disengagement is easy I think Ivan.........all my Farang friends are disengaged. They are not the least bit bothered.

I not think you hate Thaksin...I agree, you never said you did. I was actually referring to all farangs. I see my last paragraph, and yeah..it looks like it is directed at you, which was not my intention at all. I was trying to make a point to other Farang readers here, to get away from all the Thaksin hater stuff you see on this board, and focus the way I stated it.

I have a huge circle of friends and students, and have not experienced your afflictions even though they are involved to some degree. Although I admit, the airport thing was the exception. That affected many Farangs.

I still contend that Farangs can remain aloof in the main, to Thai Politics if they choose.

I am glad we agree on this simplistic color affinity stuff when discussing Thai politics. I am strongly in favor of the pro-democracy agenda and have a belief that the anti-democracy movement is served by this simplistic reference to the two sides. They dont want it to become apparent that there is a struggle going on for democracy in Thailand...This color-affinity focus helps them to do that.........IMHO.

[IvanDobsky]

"Am I for real...."........I most certainly am IvanDobsky......

But don't get me wrong. I was not challenging you in any way. My point was simply that Farangs dont need to get their "shirt in a knot" over Thai politics.

Disengagement is easy I think Ivan.........all my Farang friends are disengaged. They are not the least bit bothered.

I not think you hate Thaksin...I agree, you never said you did. I was actually referring to all farangs. I see my last paragraph, and yeah..it looks like it is directed at you, which was not my intention at all. I was trying to make a point to other Farang readers here, to get away from all the Thaksin hater stuff you see on this board, and focus the way I stated it.

I have a huge circle of friends and students, and have not experienced your afflictions even though they are involved to some degree. Although I admit, the airport thing was the exception. That affected many Farangs.

I still contend that Farangs can remain aloof in the main, to Thai Politics if they choose.

I am glad we agree on this simplistic color affinity stuff when discussing Thai politics. I am strongly in favor of the pro-democracy agenda and have a belief that the anti-democracy movement is served by this simplistic reference to the two sides. They dont want it to become apparent that there is a struggle going on for democracy in Thailand...This color-affinity focus helps them to do that.........IMHO.

OK, never mind and thanks for clarification.

I'm sure most foreigners stay aloof from politics when living in Thailand, TBH, I try to do so as well. However, I live in a town where there are not so many foreigners and sometimes it is not so easy to stay away from it.

The bottom line is that I want the best for my family, friends, students and Thailand. I love this place. I admit I've only been here continously for five years but your country has given more hope and joy than frustration and despair.

The struggle for democracy has always been going on and has never been won. Democracy doesn't work in SE Asia? Another topic for another thread.

The colour affinity reminds me of football, a circus, as opposed to a serious debate.

Most foreigners can easily stay away from politics here. I can too, but when it affects my friends/colleagues etc, I can't help but give my opinion.

[lounger]

"Am I for real...."........I most certainly am IvanDobsky......

But don't get me wrong. I was not challenging you in any way. My point was simply that Farangs dont need to get their "shirt in a knot" over Thai politics.

Disengagement is easy I think Ivan.........all my Farang friends are disengaged. They are not the least bit bothered.

I not think you hate Thaksin...I agree, you never said you did. I was actually referring to all farangs. I see my last paragraph, and yeah..it looks like it is directed at you, which was not my intention at all. I was trying to make a point to other Farang readers here, to get away from all the Thaksin hater stuff you see on this board, and focus the way I stated it.

I have a huge circle of friends and students, and have not experienced your afflictions even though they are involved to some degree. Although I admit, the airport thing was the exception. That affected many Farangs.

I still contend that Farangs can remain aloof in the main, to Thai Politics if they choose.

I am glad we agree on this simplistic color affinity stuff when discussing Thai politics. I am strongly in favor of the pro-democracy agenda and have a belief that the anti-democracy movement is served by this simplistic reference to the two sides. They dont want it to become apparent that there is a struggle going on for democracy in Thailand...This color-affinity focus helps them to do that.........IMHO.

I really cant understand you guys with your nice and clean arguments about democracy. I wonder which party you consider is the democracy supporting one: the anti progressive unyielding ruling party or the yobs with no jobs..........

[animatic]

Absolutely.

I'm sick and tired of the different mobs intent on securing power for their leaders at the expense of Thailand's image abroad and progress at home......

So, IvanDobsky............"If you are sick and tired of different mobs.......' Why do you pay any attention?

Farangs are unaffected by the internal machinations of Thai politics. Leave that to the Thai's. I write on this board a lot about Thai politics, because I am a political junkie. Just this evening I was visiting with a Farang, who speak exactly like you, and he just remain uninvolved.

Fortunately, it doesn't affect Farangs. The only time it affected Farangs was the airport thing....

Just stay away from the areas where Thai's deal with their political disagreements...........

.........Let the Thai people solve their political problems.........

.....Farangs can remain totally uninvolved if they want. Only people like me and other political junkies who discuss this stuff ad-nauseum on boards such as this are involved because we choose to be. We are not "sick and tired of it" as we enjoy discussing political machinations wherever they occur.

....I keep harping away on here, about getting away from describing the political divide by referencing affinity colors of their clothing.....

.....Get away from the Thaksin-hating stuff, and begin to discuss this political divide according to what separates it ideologically........

Nice, thank you so much. If I don't support the Reds, I should go somewhere else? "With all due respect"?

What makes you think I hate Thaksin? I didn't mention him in my post. I know people who support both sides, it doesn't mean I support either.

Political affinity defined by clothing, shallow and simplistic? Yes, we agree on something.

The violence during Songkran affected me personally because of ex-students of mine in tears because of the violence outside their dorms. The occupation of the airport affected me personally because a friend could not fly into the country.

Disengage? Because I am a foreigner who lives here, I have no right to feel sick and tired about things affecting my friends, family and work-colleagues? Are you for real?

Lets see you 'write on here a lot', but this is your ONLY 16th post....

Oops wrong handle.. the last got banned right... forgot hmmm?

New persona the "Thai Political Junkie" Of course that is a East coast USA usage,

never spoken in Thailand by a Thai in my hearing.

You recommend:

Farangs not discuss Thai politics

even if it effects their lives in Thailand and that of their families,

by spuriously claiming the Thai political machinations don't affect us. Wrong dude.

It would defeat your purpose if bilingual Thais actually listened to us wouldn't it.

Get away from the THAKSIN HATING STUFF...

HUH, like his actions are in a vacuum?

Sorry I have been negatively affected by Kuhn Thaksins take on how to punish areas that don't vote for him.

ie CUT ALL SUPPORT FROM BANGKOK for roads and infrastructure maintenance and upgrades.

So I can see ANY reason to think his return is anything but a travesty for this country.

Stay un-involved.. HA! Not on your tin-type bucko! His actions and vindictiveness affected us all.

This is not a fight for democracy as much as a fight to prevent a dictator from taking control.

This is not ideological, but Machiavellian manipulation of the masses for power and profit.

At this point the lust for power is in the lead, the money is just to keep score with....

Until the absconded renegade backs off to a quit rest this will continue to boil.

And lets not forget he has resurrected the far left as political bedmates,

and Jakrapob has now indicated hopes for a long drawn out campaign to win back the country,

for the far left of socialist causes. Thanks Dr. T. you just woke the sleeping ogre,

when it had all but given up the ghost.

This guy just doesn't think past his own ego gratification,

and that makes him extraordinarily dangerous.

[elcent]

IMHO the only solution

Temporary amnesty for about one to two years for all involved, inclusive Thaksin and the 111. Get the constitution in order or better roll back to the 1997 one and make necessary amendments.

All involved need to sign an MOU(a binding memorandum of understanding, so for example that Thaksin can't collect his money and run away again and so forth, until all doubts are dismissed).

After then sue the sh*t out of everybody, like the coup leaders, the yellow cake, red instigators and all corrupted officials without bias.

It's obvious that it can't continue like this. It's out of control and the country is in a deadlock.

[wasaskater]

I understand why the Red Shirts are upset...I would too. However all these disruptions of power need to stop...as someone mentioned..."United We Stand...Divided We Fall". I do not agree what the yellow shirts did was right...far from it. I also do not agree to what the Reds did in BKK(which was just as bad.) You had to be in Pattaya to really see and know what happened. I think what has happened is equvilate to....

If a majority of Americans voted the Republican Party into power...only for the Republicans to convert to being Democrat...and electing a Democratic President. I would be hopping mad too...but there is not a thing I could do about it...except write/call my elected representative...and not vote them into power the next time around.

I do believe there could not be a peaceful demostration...especially when you feel like you are being attacked. Is there still a ban on large groups gathering in one place? Just my 2 cents.

[animatic]

If you can't adequately fight the arguments,

then best try and convince the other debaters

to stop bothering to speak.

Hmm new marching orders from the boss,

SHUT THEM UP! they make me look to bad.

Shame it is a fore lorn excercise,

but at least they pay is OK at $500 month

[animatic]

I understand why the Red Shirts are upset...I would too. However all these disruptions of power need to stop...as someone mentioned..."United We Stand...Divided We Fall". I do not agree what the yellow shirts did was right...far from it. I also do not agree to what the Reds did in BKK(which was just as bad.) You had to be in Pattaya to really see and know what happened. I think what has happened is equvilate to....

If a majority of Americans voted the Republican Party into power...only for the Republicans to convert to being Democrat...and electing a Democratic President. I would be hopping mad too...but there is not a thing I could do about it...except write/call my elected representative...and not vote them into power the next time around.

I do believe there could not be a peaceful demostration...especially when you feel like you are being attacked. Is there still a ban on large groups gathering in one place? Just my 2 cents.

Actually the balance of US. Senate power DID shift during a Bush recent tenure .

An Rep. voting independent switched sides and joined the Dems.

and a republican ditched the party, he know longer recognized, and turned independent.

Oh the HOWLS to be heard!

And yes the GOP was hopping mad,

but they had lost the plot by this time and got voted out.

And some STILL call it a coup by CNN... sour grapes.

[Maigo6]

Anybody will be flogging a dead horse here.

Our all knowing westerners ( Expats ) could all do a better job of running Thailand................ Get a few western bankers in and Thailand will be a success....

I wonder why westerners didn't run the west so well ?

It's very easy to get on the Thaksin bahing bandwagon, but I'm quite confident that if he came back to power and gave Farangs land ownwership and easy visas, we would see a swift change of attitude, then Thaksin will be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Expats are a fickle lot, and the reason thay are so fickle is cos they can afford to be, think about the poor Thai people who have no choice in anything, I bet they would love your passport !

Thaksin comes back and gives Farangs land ownership rights and long term visas without all the hoops to jump through..................................... if you could, would you vote for him ?

[Chaimai]

Thaksin comes back and gives Farangs land ownership rights and long term visas without all the hoops to jump through..................................... if you could, would you vote for him ?

Yep,

but would 60 million Thais vote for him with that policy ?

[mickeylo]

Sunday rally postponed

BANGKOK: -- Pro-Thaksin protesters announced Saturday they decided to postpone their mass rally planned for Sunday as they are not allowed to gather under the internal security laws.

They said they planned to rally on September 5.

They would again postpone their rally if the government enforced the Internal Security Act again for their Sept 5 rally.

-- The Nation 2009-08-29

I think they should do what the king asked try to work togather give this PM a chance. see what he can do

[webfact]

Security law may be extended: PM

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on August 30, 2009

Security law may be extended: PM

Cabinet to decide on Tuesday if law is needed for possible rally on coming weekends, Abhisit says

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday the Internal Security Act would remain in effect despite the "red shirts" postponing their anti-government rally until next Saturday.

Abhisit said Cabinet would decide at its meeting on Tuesday whether to extend imposition of the law, invoked last Tuesday to take effect in Bangkok's Dusit district from last Friday and to tomorrow.

The prime minister said protesters were still allowed to hold rally when the security law is imposed and there had been talks about routes where they could rally peacefully.

"It does not matter even if they [the red shirts] keep on postponing their rally. Authorities must always be on alert," he said, adding that it was the government's responsibility to maintain peace and that it was good news for the country if nothing happened.

The number of the troops and police dispatched to guard Government House was reduced after the rally was postponed. Many soldiers were transported out of the compound with the prime minister's office, although a number of police remained around the premises.

After the premier's statement yesterday, First Army Area commander Lt-General Kanit Sapithak said that the number of military personnel deployed around Government House and the Royal Palace compound has been cut back to an "appropriate amount" to maintain order in high-risk areas in Dusit district.

The commander, whose jurisdiction covers the capital, said the current situation was not worrying and there were no signs of third-party interference to incite chaos.

Sources from the red shirts said their leaders, including Veera Musikapong and former People Power Party executives, met on Friday and decided to call off the rally as they believed the government planned to round up all leaders in order to undermine the rally. They also feared that an "ill-intentioned third party" might take advantage of the situation to crack down on the red shirts, one source said.

They felt that if they went ahead with the rally, the red shirts would face negative consequences and public hatred similar to after the Songkran riots in April. That might affect perceptions about the petition submitted to His Majesty the King seeking a Royal pardon for ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

The sources also said Thaksin had phoned Veera many times voicing concern about the red shirts' safety and that they would fall into a "trap set by the government". He was also worried about bad publicity and negative image incurred to his supporters if the red-shirt leaders could not control the mob.

Red-shirt leaders Veera Musikapong, Nattawut Saikua and Jatuporn Promphan called a press conference after their meeting and said they put off their rally because the government had gained an upper hand with its campaign to make the public feel the red shirts were intent on destroying the economy and business climate with their rallies.

So they decided to change their strategy by postponing the rally from till September 5, or September 12 or September 19, depending on whether the government ends or extends the internal security law.

"On September 19, the red shirts will stage a sit-in protest and will not retreat because it marks three years after the September coup,'' Nattawut said.

Thepthai Senpong, spokesman for Abhisit, said yesterday he believed the red shirts had ill-intent in calling the rally this weekend. And that was why they deferred it after the government invoked the Internal Security Act.

However, he believed the main reason they put off the rally was because they were short of financial support as Thaksin phoned to tell them it wasn't the right time to out out the masses for a major rally.

-- The Nation 2009/08/30

[slapout]

The spokesmen, leaders, mouthpieces, etc who are throwing out the propaganda, via remote tv hookups, magazines, national tv, phone ins, newspapers, forums etc bring to mind a Voltaire statement. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". Maybe atrocities is too harsh a term up to the present (some of the victims may disagree). But if the self serving individuals/families can not or do not care about a real potential tragic fallout, Thailand may need some outside help.

[brahmburgers]

I keep harping away on here, about getting away from describing the political divide by referencing affinity colors of their clothing. This is so shallow and simplistic, and shows no respect to the ideological basis of each. They have passionately held opinions and platforms. Show them some respect and not dismissively by referencing them by colors. They have a belief system. Get away from the Thaksin-hating stuff, and begin to discuss this political divide according to what separates it ideologically........that is the thinking person's approach. Dividing this national political dialogue into pro-democracy and anti-democracy camps works for me. I can put most political elements into one of those two categories, even those who say all politicians are bad, and a pox on all their houses.

You say it's so it's so shallow and simplistic to divvy the two factions in to colors (tho newspapers and commentators do it), yet you divvy them in to pro-dems and anti-dems. Look who's calling the kettle black.

Democracy isn't pretty, and even in some of the best functioning democracies, there are screw-ups (example: Gore losing to Bush in 2000, even though Gore had more votes). Democracy in Thailand, with its stratified social order and lack of democratic traditions, is more difficult. It's possible, but they're not quite there yet.

Because it's a small country, and the populace is used to being told what to think / how to vote (rote learning, do as you're told mentality) it's also relatively easy to pay for votes. Thaksin did win votes, but his legacy, as manifested by Red Shirt leaders, is twisting things in uglier directions. They're now a lot closer to mob rule than democratic principles.

Cool heads should prevail. All colored and non-colored shirt wearers should prepare for subsequent elections. Join a party they like, campaign hardily (and legally), and accept who wins, even if it's not their candidate of choice.

T was run out of office by a bloodless coup because too many Thais had gotten beyond their tolerance point regarding his many many illegal and harmful acts. The coup wasn't democratic but, like a body with cancer throughout, sometimes extreme surgery (outside of what's prescribed in medical manuals) is needed to save a patient.

Also, you'll notice that during and right after the coup, there were no complaints and no resistance. It was only months later, after T saw his ill-begotten assets getting frozen, that the Red Shirt movement got started. Between the coup and the asset freezing motion, T had repeatedly announced, "that's it, I'm out of politics." uh huh, that statement rings about as true as any of the other dozens of lies he's trotted out in the past 7 years.

[Insight]

Also, you'll notice that during and right after the coup, there were no complaints and no resistance. It was only months later, after T saw his ill-begotten assets getting frozen, that the Red Shirt movement got started.

Bingo. Complaints during the coup were thin on the ground at best, and I highly doubt this is because people's opinions were oppressed. Patience stated to wane when people considered the installed Surayad government slow and ineffective (mainly at investigating Thaksin's gains).

Edited August 30, 2009 by Insight

[Cayenne]

Also, you'll notice that during and right after the coup, there were no complaints and no resistance. It was only months later, after T saw his ill-begotten assets getting frozen, that the Red Shirt movement got started. Between the coup and the asset freezing motion, T had repeatedly announced, "that's it, I'm out of politics." uh huh, that statement rings about as true as any of the other dozens of lies he's trotted out in the past 7 years.

Interesting point- so if Thaksin did get his money back would he stop meddling in politics or even have more money to finance the red shirts? Thaksin knows that even if he were to come back, there's no way he can be PM again (aside from the obvious fact that he now has a criminal record) so this fight is just for his money. I feel sorry for so many of the red shirt being blinded by the fact that they are just tools for Thaksiin to get his money back.

[mc2]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup. it was only after the yellow shirts and so called "elites"/military expelled the elected governments of samak and somchai and orchestrated the current coalition that the reds saw the injustice and decided to make their voices heard.

[Insight]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup. it was only after the yellow shirts and so called "elites"/military expelled the elected governments of samak and somchai and orchestrated the current coalition that the reds saw the injustice and decided to make their voices heard.

How did they know that? Did Thaksin barter a deal with the military?

[Thai at Heart]

Security law may be extended: PM

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on August 30, 2009

Security law may be extended: PM

Cabinet to decide on Tuesday if law is needed for possible rally on coming weekends, Abhisit says

-- The Nation 2009/08/30

I hope that Abhisit understands the meaning of keeping this law in force for longer than needed. It should not be enforced for longer than needed or it's geographic coverage extended.

It would be interesting to see if and pro-democracy governments or organisations will have anything to say about it, should the act be enabled for a longer period of time.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[mc2]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup. it was only after the yellow shirts and so called "elites"/military expelled the elected governments of samak and somchai and orchestrated the current coalition that the reds saw the injustice and decided to make their voices heard.

How did they know that? Did Thaksin barter a deal with the military?

simple, they had the votes

no need to make up conspiracy theories.

[Insight]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup. it was only after the yellow shirts and so called "elites"/military expelled the elected governments of samak and somchai and orchestrated the current coalition that the reds saw the injustice and decided to make their voices heard.

How did they know that? Did Thaksin barter a deal with the military?

simple, they had the votes

no need to make up conspiracy theories.

But after the coup there was no immediate indication of when there'd be general elections again, and certainty no conditions were given of what conditions those elections would be under.

Not inventing conspiracy theories, just that "reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup" seems like a strange statement to make.

[mca]

Not inventing conspiracy theories, just that "reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup" seems like a strange statement to make.

Well unless the majority of voters were suddenly going to swap sides it seems cut and dried they'd win again. Look at the measures the anti-Thaksin lot had to make to sure that nobody associated with Thaksin would be in power. They knew another political party couldn't win if their lives depended on it. And I speak as someone who loathes Thaksin.

Edited August 30, 2009 by mca

[Plus]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup. it was only after the yellow shirts and so called "elites"/military expelled the elected governments of samak and somchai and orchestrated the current coalition that the reds saw the injustice and decided to make their voices heard.

Just a quick recap:

There were plenty of regular protests after the coup, it was so hated that sometimes even 300 people would show up. On the biggest Consitution day rally there were easily 5,000. There was no color designation at that time yet.

Red movement started with a massive rally at Sanam Luang in 2007, with Thaksin's first phone in. It wasn't long before when reds tried to storm Prem's residence leaving two hundred policemen injured. When PPP formed the government after teh elections they dissipated.

Then, in 2008, when PAD held their first seminar, indoor, I might add, red movement came back. They threw bottles and plastic bags with urine and excrements at PAD buses, and one proud red displayed his genitalia to express his outrage at other people holding their meetings.

As PAD protests grew pro-Thaksin forces realised that they need to counteract them with their own "mass-movement" to take control of the streets. People were mobilised from all over the country. That eventually led to a drunken red mob, armed with machetes and clubs, storming smaller and less protected PAD camp in the middle of the night. PAD guards quickly regrouped and beat them back. One attacker lost his life.

After that PAD rallies were attacked all throughout the country, most notably Udon Lovers mob severely beating about a dozen PAD members unconsicous while they were preparing their rally. The stage was completely destroyed, and they used Thai flagpoles, among other weapons. The leader was offering monetary rewards to anyone who could kill a PAD leader. He was on the PPP govt payroll at that time.

After a spate of such attacks PAD leadership was forced to concentrate in Bangkok and give up on holding any meetings upcountry. Red power was rising.

In Bangkok red leaders held training camps where they taught their foot soldiers to use weapons and throw grenades. Shortly after that PAD camps were bombed almost nightly. Our resident red, Koo, was saying that if PAD refused to obey by Red demands, bombing them into submission was the right thing to do.

Then late in 2008, Reds had an image makeover with highly publicised and peaceful rally at Hua Mark that featured Thaksin's video appearance (or phone in, I don't remember). From that point on reds started telling everyone how peaceful they were and that lasted until Songkran mayhem.

>>>

Please don't try to list all PAD examples of violence to change the subject - it's not PAD who is going to oust the government now and keep everyone worrying, it's reds.

[dale8]

Hello, this is great news for the people of Bangkok that want a good life without the fear of a riot. The Thai government should remain consistant with more police at the next scheduled meeting too.

[Plus]

Not inventing conspiracy theories, just that "reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup" seems like a strange statement to make.

Well unless the majority of voters were suddenly going to swap sides it seems cut and dried they'd win again. Look at the measures the anti-Thaksin lot had to make to sure that nobody associated with Thaksin would be in power. They knew another political party couldn't win if their lives depended on it. And I speak as someone who loathes Thaksin.

Well, it wasn't the majority, only 36%, and the rest of the vote was split six ways - so it was single pro-Thaksin party against the diversity of the rest of the country. When PPP formed the govt it was forced to agree on all sorts of conditions and give up their Thaksin agenda. Basically it was: 'As the biggest party you have the right to form the ruling coalition but you can't dictate your pro-Thaksin agenda to the rest of us".

There were a number of PPP led moves to help Thaksin through the parliament, and everytime they were nipped in the bud by a lack of support from ruling coalition partners. PAD street presense nd support they had nationwide was essential in communicating public opposition to the lawmakers.

So no, pro-Thaksin party had never had a mandate to rule as it pleases.