Suthichai Yoon Interviews Stephen Young

[LaoPo]

^^^^

I second the opinion of Seismic as well as the comments/opinions of earlier posters: NanLaew - Geriatrickid & Johpa

Well done!

LaoPo

[Richard W]

Just because Thai politicians have not behaved like that in the past does not make it the correct way to proceed. What he fails to acknowledge is that Thaksin was a freely democratically elected Prime Minister with the largest majority in history and who was then deposed by an unelected Military clique who imposed upon the country their form of Government and it was under this unelected Government that Thaksin’s conviction came about.

Actually, Thaksin was convicted under the PTP government of his brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat.

Friend of yours or do you have access to his photo database ?

I just googled "ทักษิน สุนทร" for pictures. You can try it too. It's incredibly easy and simple you know.

And, you must have misread me (again) since I didn't think you were Sriracha John; I was just surprised that someone was able to dig up old photos so fast; but now you explained.

I also misread LaoPo's post as accusing ThNiner of being Sriracha John.

[Publicus]

^^^^

I second the opinion of Seismic as well as the comments/opinions of earlier posters: NanLaew - Geriatrickid & Johpa

Well done!

LaoPo

Likewise as there is much knowledge, analysis and insight in the posts. More I dare say than by the Boston Blueblood Prof Young.

[ThNiner]

Just because Thai politicians have not behaved like that in the past does not make it the correct way to proceed. What he fails to acknowledge is that Thaksin was a freely democratically elected Prime Minister with the largest majority in history and who was then deposed by an unelected Military clique who imposed upon the country their form of Government and it was under this unelected Government that Thaksin's conviction came about.

Actually, Thaksin was convicted under the PTP government of his brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat.

Chai krab, exactly. :nod:

I also misread LaoPo's post as accusing ThNiner of being Sriracha John.

[Plus]

..One aspect puzzles me which is why more weight needs to be given to the bureaucracy in Thailand than in other successful countries.

I'm not offering solutions, just describing the problems.

Thaksin has declared bureaucracy the enemy of the country and elected leaders the saviors.

In my view it's the other way around.

As for solutions - they should improve the quality of leaders that come through electoral system. It's not easy because there's fundamental flaw here - the only tests politicians need to pass are collecting votes but the jobs they want to do require completely different sets of skills and knowledge.

[animatic]

Just because Thai politicians have not behaved like that in the past does not make it the correct way to proceed. What he fails to acknowledge is that Thaksin was a freely democratically elected Prime Minister with the largest majority in history and who was then deposed by an unelected Military clique who imposed upon the country their form of Government and it was under this unelected Government that Thaksin's conviction came about.

Actually, Thaksin was convicted under the PTP government of his brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat.

Chai krab, exactly. :nod:

I also misread LaoPo's post as accusing ThNiner of being Sriracha John.

I believe Thaksin was convicted under PPP and Samak...

but same same crew at the helm in either case.

Samak was convicted while he was at the wheel,

and same for Somchai.

Thaksin gave away his mandate by calling an snap election.

Thaksin was running a cabinet with NO ELECTED MPs at all,

and was only Acting PM awaiting another election,

because he disolved the legislature.

TRT cheated so badly in the LAST THAKSIN election they were disbanded.

And they barely got 20% UN-OPPOSED... by the next winningest party

This is not the biggest majority in history, that was 2 elections earlier.

And his illegal acts in office invalidated his abilty to be PM ongoing.

He is banned for 5 years.

[jayboy]

..One aspect puzzles me which is why more weight needs to be given to the bureaucracy in Thailand than in other successful countries.

I'm not offering solutions, just describing the problems.

Thaksin has declared bureaucracy the enemy of the country and elected leaders the saviors.

In my view it's the other way around.

As for solutions - they should improve the quality of leaders that come through electoral system. It's not easy because there's fundamental flaw here - the only tests politicians need to pass are collecting votes but the jobs they want to do require completely different sets of skills and knowledge.

Well yes ok this is all rational stuff but I don't really see why a strong bureaucracy can't sit side by side a regular electoral democracy where the politicians/lawmakers are chosen by the people.The bureaucrats serve the politicians who in turn are servants of the people.Clearly in Thailand a bureaucracy of high professionalism and incorruptibility would be an enormous asset and where it exists should be cherished.But incompetence and corruption are unfortunately all too common common in the bureaucracy so I'm not quite sure why you think it deserves such an elevated reputation.To take one rather obvious example the crimes and excesses of politicians like Thaksin wouldn't get beyond first base without the willing co-operation of officials.Yes resistance could mean transfer or dismissal but isn't that what professioal integrity would require?

As to your last point about the test of politicians being to capture votes when their jobs require different skill sets, this is debated the world over and not unique to Thailand.One thing to remember is that most politicians remain back benchers and don't get ministerial jobs so those of indifferent quality don't get selected (in theory, I understand what actually happens in Thai coalition governments!).But there are still enough first class people - Korn, Abhisit etc who are willing to enter this dirty game not for money but because of patriotism and ambition (the latter is perfectly acceptable in men of energy and talent, eg Churchill, Obama, Harry Lee).I think what Thais should be doing is to encourage men and women of high ability and honour to enter politics.We should be careful not to blacken the profession because then we throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.It's a messy business and probably always will be but in my mind fully fledged electoral democracy preferable to rule by a small number of high minded guardians (not least because these in almost every instance prove to be as selfish and flawed as the average elected politician).At least in an election you can kick the current bastards out, not so with those who think they have some non accountable right to rule.

[animatic]

To declare bureaucracy the enemy of the country is something right out of the USA Republican Party's playbook.

Their aim is always to get bureaucrats off the backs of their business friends,

in the name of smaller government. yada yada yada.

But it is more to free up big business from constraints.

Seems Thaksin was reading that line whole cloth.

[LaoPo]

I also misread LaoPo's post as accusing ThNiner of being Sriracha John.

English isn't my Mother's tongue and sometimes my kind of language as well as irony is misunderstood. Although it's a heavy burden to me, I have to live with it.

LaoPo

[brahmburgers]

One of Thaksin's strongest legacies, for the younger generation, is how he reinforced bad character traits as being beneficial for success.

Thaksin was at the helm for several years, and while there he showed that lust for power and immeasurable amounts of money were the highest virtues. He also demonstrated that consolidating as much power as possible, and playing dirty were ok.

I don't much care for the older generation in this regard, as their attitudes about fairness and achieving success are pretty much set in concrete. It's the younger, pliable, impressionable generations that are of concern. Those of us who hope for a better Thailand, can't help but be discouraged when we see the younger generation being influenced by the same ugly habits (by the likes of Thaksin) of earlier years. We had hoped a new generation of youngsters will have decent, wise, and fair-minded people to look up to - in order to break the pattern. Abhisit shows some of that hope, though he's having a tough time getting some stride going - as there are many who are trying to trip him up.

[Plus]

Well yes ok this is all rational stuff but I don't really see why a strong bureaucracy can't sit side by side a regular electoral democracy where the politicians/lawmakers are chosen by the people.The bureaucrats serve the politicians who in turn are servants of the people.

It's the last part - politicians as servants of the people - that causes all the malfunctioning. Now the politicians cite their mandate to roll over bureaucrats and push for all kinds or outrageous ripoffs. This practice started with Thaksin, when he tried to shift the balance of power towards elected leaders.

But incompetence and corruption are unfortunately all too common common in the bureaucracy so I'm not quite sure why you think it deserves such an elevated reputation.

Relatively speaking, they are far more qualified to run the country than a spa operator as finance minister, for example.

To take one rather obvious example the crimes and excesses of politicians like Thaksin wouldn't get beyond first base without the willing co-operation of officials.Yes resistance could mean transfer or dismissal but isn't that what professioal integrity would require?

Well, Thaksin's bureaucratic reform isn't often discussed here, but it was the biggest reshuffle in their hundred plus year history. It allowed Thaksin to do practically anything he wanted without as much as a squeak from the civil service side.

As to your last point about the test of politicians being to capture votes when their jobs require different skill sets, this is debated the world over and not unique to Thailand.One thing to remember is that most politicians remain back benchers and don't get ministerial jobs so those of indifferent quality don't get selected (in theory, I understand what actually happens in Thai coalition governments!).

I think it is reaching unacceptable proportions. Look at IT ministry, for example - it hasn't had a qualified minister since its inception.

Coalition partners are not going away anytime soon, even if they all get incorporated into one big party ala TRT they'd still demand their cabinet share, and they have all the democratic rights, to, under current system.

The fact is that in the foreseeable future "democracy" won't be delivering "best" governments, and the country will further lose its competitiveness. Telecoms infrastructure is a decade behind the rest of the world already, and so are transport and logistics. The world doesn't wait.