Whats In A Name?

[eko2248]

What’s in a Name?

It is commonly believed that once a farange legally marries a Thai lady, thereafter his written approval will be required at any time she wishes to buy, sell, mortgage, transfer or otherwise dispose of or compromise family assets. Since a legal marriage gives each spouse a claim to half of all family assets, this injunction seems to be a reasonable safeguard for those farange husbands who have put all their Thai assets in their wives’ names. They have accepted that should the marriage subsequently fail, they will lose half their investment. But retain half.

But be warned. Things do not always work out as one expects.

Take the case of a Brit who had been married to a Thai lady for 12 years. During that time he invested 8.0 million in land & house, 3.7 million in 2 cars and 2 motorcycles (2 being 1500 plus cc type choppers and 2 being Honda mopeds) and over 5.0 million in 2 bank accounts. A total savings/investment of 16.7 million. Then during the next 4 years things changed. Later he learnt that she had started to gamble – unfortunately not successfully, and in doing so began to lose money. His/their money. First the cash simply disappeared. Then he learnt that the motorcycles had suddenly been used as collateral for a 2 million baht loan. Finally, he discovered that his house was to be repossessed, as she had taken out a 5.0 million baht loan against which she had made no installment payments for 13 months. Unpaid interest on that loan had been accumulated – first at 7.5% then at 15.0% so now stood at 766,000 baht.

So how was this possible when he had never been consulted and had never signed giving his approval to these borrowings?

The simple answer was because she had never changed her name when she married him. Thus she continued to hold her national ID card in her maiden name which showed that she was a single lady.

The Lenders – predominantly the Bank, believed that she was a single Thai lady and did not ask any further questions or require any additional paper work. In fact, they did not even ask how she intended to repay the debt or what her source of monthly income was. If it did come up in conversation she simply lied.

The money she borrowed she lost. So over 4 years she had reduced 16.7 million baht to 2.9 million. When he finally learnt the truth, her behavior had of course killed the marriage but worse was to come. He had to pay 2.0 million to clear the charges against the 4 motorcycles. He had to pay 6.8 million to reclaim his house. Then she asked the court that he pay her half of the remaining 2.9 million baht of net assets as her property settlement upon Termination of the Marriage. Clearly she needed some money to settle other gambling debts because her life was at risk.

Now what are the lessons to be learnt from this sad tale?

First, make sure your name appears as co-owner of every bank account that you create during the marriage AND that your signature is required for every withdrawal.

Second, check your spouse’s ID. If it is still in her maiden name or if it shows that she is a single person ask her why and if there are not very strong reasons why that should be the case, insist that she change it so that her status is that of a Married lady and her Family name at least includes your family name. This can be easily done by hyphenating the two family names. When a Thai girl marries, current rules gives the girl the right to choose if she wants to be shown as Miss or Mrs. And if she wants to continue to use her maiden name, there is no compulsion for her to change it. But unless she does change her Status or her Family Name, or both, Thai lenders have no reason why they should require the approval of a second person before giving her the requested loan.

Three, make sure you obtain and hold all title documents – chanotes, green books etc and then store them away where she can not get access to them. This is not foolproof as copies can be obtained, so still be wary.

What’s in a name? Huge risk if the name allows her to steal family assets which you paid for. Be warned and protect yourself. If unsure seek advice. The cost of doing so may result in major avoidance of loss in the future.

[senshusband]

Well, I don't know about the whole name thing. My wife changed her name ASAP. That is part of it. In my country, that is the way we do it, she would soon be living there, she is my wife. Why would a girl not change her name? Why would she not want to? Why would the husband agree to her maintaining the same identity? I'm not trying to play the "superior gender" here, but if a WIFE does not want to change her name, for whatever reason, she is up to something and the husband better hope its a tax break. Even if it is to maintain the higher status symbol, it ain't cool. Why marry below your status in the first place. Now the gambling is another devastating element in Thailand. People keep thinking that they can win it back. Well, luck will change. Borrow money. Ok, sell the gold. Gosh, so sure that things were going to turn around. 100,000 lost. Easy. I have seen it too many times and have witnessed children go hungry because mom or dad couldn't win enough to buy dinner. Well, they had it to start, but ran into bad luck. Oh well, maybe tomorrow. My wife lost a good amount and finally told me about it. She was in debt to a couple of ladies so I bailed her out. I told her that she had better smarten up. When I am taking care of her and Mom and Dad, I don't have an extra 3 grand to donate to the "I just suckered your wife out of some easy money" foundation. The "I'll never do it again" spill came out and that was it...until 4 months later and I'm back in Thailand. I guess it was partly my fault, because I didn't have her establish the "I'll never do it again" timeline. Well, I got drunk and forgot about it. Another 2 grand. After a few days we got to our vacation destination. I do not beat my wife and will never do so, but one night right before we were to go for dinner, she did one of her girl routines. That is when I firmly let her know that that it was NOT ok for her to lose that kind of money and that it BETTER NOT happen again. Trust me, she got the point. I also made her look her mom in the face and tell her what she had done. Mom and Dad wanted such and such, but I explained to them that they were not going to get it because my wife lost the money that was to go to that project. I told her that if it did happen again, to go ahead and start the divorce papers. It has yet to be a problem and I remind her every now and then to not even think about it. I love my wife very much and she loves me (when I'm asleep ) very much too. But she understands now that gambling can be a terrible addiction and can cause a person to lose everything they have. If anyone out there has a wife or husband that likes to gamble, you had better lay down some ground rules i.e. how much money is "acceptable" to lose, where the gambling takes place, and how long they stay there. In my household, we only gamble when we are together and only small bets 10 baht-25 baht.

[ronthompson]

I may be wrong but I believe a Forang has little if any legal rights in Thailand, I have consulted a Thai lawyer becaose my legally married wife, who changed her ID has a 19 y/o son and if my wife would die he would receive everything and me NOTHING, Chances are my wife will not die first but what if??

We purchased some farm land a while back and I had to sign a paper in the land office stating funds to purchase the land was not from me.

Point being a Thai lawyer said i have NO survival rights and the land court will not allow a forang any land purchase.

We had purchased a Condo in Bangkok and that was in both names.

like i mentioned do not believe any common beliefs!

[Dave the Dude]

I may be wrong but I believe a Forang has little if any legal rights in Thailand, I have consulted a Thai lawyer becaose my legally married wife, who changed her ID has a 19 y/o son and if my wife would die he would receive everything and me NOTHING, Chances are my wife will not die first but what if??

We purchased some farm land a while back and I had to sign a paper in the land office stating funds to purchase the land was not from me.

Point being a Thai lawyer said i have NO survival rights and the land court will not allow a forang any land purchase.

We had purchased a Condo in Bangkok and that was in both names.

like i mentioned do not believe any common beliefs!

Hi Ron

Hope you are well. I too have looked into this aspect in detail and believe you are right.

There are 6 catagories to divide the estate of a Thai citizen and the husband does not figure in Thai LAW, it goes to the family/children

So in a nutshell, you pay for a house in your wives name and if she dies before you, the chances are you will be homeless.

I strongly believe in simple processes (& short posts) and I am currently in liaison with a Lawyer to come up with a cost-effective package to help Farang husbands at 1/2 the price commonly quoted for a will.

Dave

[prakhonchai nick]

I believe it is true that if the Thai wife goes first, then the farang husband loses out, with children, parents, siblings all in line for a handout. BUT that only applies if she dies intestate.

If the wife can be persuaded to write a will, leaving everything to the husband upon her death then there should be no problem. She could even leave everything to her children or family, with a proviso that the husband be permitted to occupy/use the property during the remainder of his lifetime.

[Dave the Dude]

I believe it is true that if the Thai wife goes first, then the farang husband loses out, with children, parents, siblings all in line for a handout. BUT that only applies if she dies intestate.

If the wife can be persuaded to write a will, leaving everything to the husband upon her death then there should be no problem. She could even leave everything to her children or family, with a proviso that the husband be permitted to occupy/use the property during the remainder of his lifetime.

I have found that the info in your first para is quite correct but a little more than a will is needed to result in the solution as described in para 2.

See you Sunday, Nick

Dave

[senshusband]

I hear comments quite often in regards to Thai wives having control of the land, husband loses almost all rights to land, etc. I am confused when I hear people say this. Reason being, my wife and I bought land in the village (Udon province). It had the bona fide chonote everything in order. At the time I was out of the country when it came time to sign. No big deal for me because I am a foreigner and cannot own land in Thailand, right? Wrong! My wife was going to sign for the land and I would just add my name on when possible. Makes sense, right? Well, the folks at the land office would not allow it. Perplexed, my wife asks why and they told her that her husband (me) must be present and sign also. So Mom and Pa signed for it and we will get it put in our name later. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that the reason that my wife was not allowed to sign alone, is to protect me. I feel this prevents women from dipping into the joint account and doing things behind the husbands back. That is my experience, anyway.

[happylarry]

If the wife leaves the property to her ferang husband in her will then he has one year to sell or pass the ownership to a Thai national.

Not only has my wife made a will accordingly but I have also taken out a usufruct on the property so I have the right to stay there for the rest of my life regardless of who owns it.

HL

[Tagaa]

Happy Larry has done the correct thing with a Usufruct. I have the same on our property. Her name appears as the owner on the Chanote, & mine appears right below hers as the Usufructe. She can go to a bank, but once they see the usufruct, they would not give her a loan. Would you make a loan, that even if you repossessed the collateral, you could not evict the tenant or charge him rent? They can take ownership & even sell the property, (if they can find an idiot to buy it with the knowledge they can not occupy it) but I can live there until I die. Not a good deal for the bank.

About the OP's problems with the bank account, cars & motorcycles, WHY ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH WERE THEY NOT IN HIS NAME??? My bank account is in my name ONLY (the wife has her own account) & my truck is in my name. Why do guys here put EVERYTHING in the wife's name?

It's very hard to get a vehicle in your name...you just tell the dealer that you want it in your name & get a letter from Immigration to verify your address for the registration.

As an aside, when I bought my truck, the dealer said it HAD TO BE IN HER NAME. I said if that is so I will not be buying a truck (I knew it was not the case.) After some conversation in Thai with my soon to be wife, they advised all they needed was the letter from Immigration. WOW, that was hard!

<deleted>, Over... Why is it that 99% of the farangs that I know here, put everything in the GF's or wife's name.

No wonder Thai people think we are all stupid.

[mca]

Now what are the lessons to be learnt from this sad tale?

Don't marry pond life trash for one.

[Dave the Dude]

Happy Larry has done the correct thing with a Usufruct. I have the same on our property. Her name appears as the owner on the Chanote, & mine appears right below hers as the Usufructe. She can go to a bank, but once they see the usufruct, they would not give her a loan. Would you make a loan, that even if you repossessed the collateral, you could not evict the tenant or charge him rent? They can take ownership & even sell the property, (if they can find an idiot to buy it with the knowledge they can not occupy it) but I can live there until I die. Not a good deal for the bank.

About the OP's problems with the bank account, cars & motorcycles, WHY ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH WERE THEY NOT IN HIS NAME??? My bank account is in my name ONLY (the wife has her own account) & my truck is in my name. Why do guys here put EVERYTHING in the wife's name?

It's very hard to get a vehicle in your name...you just tell the dealer that you want it in your name & get a letter from Immigration to verify your address for the registration.

As an aside, when I bought my truck, the dealer said it HAD TO BE IN HER NAME. I said if that is so I will not be buying a truck (I knew it was not the case.) After some conversation in Thai with my soon to be wife, they advised all they needed was the letter from Immigration. WOW, that was hard!

<deleted>, Over... Why is it that 99% of the farangs that I know here, put everything in the GF's or wife's name.

No wonder Thai people think we are all stupid.

All good info quoted by Tagaa.

Just one further point though, by getting a Yellow Tabien Baan book, the farang then has a much easier time when purchasing bikes/cars ect as this acts as ID and an Immigration Residence letter will NEVER be required again.

Dave

[ESB7]

Happy Larry has done the correct thing with a Usufruct. I have the same on our property. Her name appears as the owner on the Chanote, & mine appears right below hers as the Usufructe. She can go to a bank, but once they see the usufruct, they would not give her a loan. Would you make a loan, that even if you repossessed the collateral, you could not evict the tenant or charge him rent? They can take ownership & even sell the property, (if they can find an idiot to buy it with the knowledge they can not occupy it) but I can live there until I die. Not a good deal for the bank.

About the OP's problems with the bank account, cars & motorcycles, WHY ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH WERE THEY NOT IN HIS NAME??? My bank account is in my name ONLY (the wife has her own account) & my truck is in my name. Why do guys here put EVERYTHING in the wife's name?

It's very hard to get a vehicle in your name...you just tell the dealer that you want it in your name & get a letter from Immigration to verify your address for the registration.

As an aside, when I bought my truck, the dealer said it HAD TO BE IN HER NAME. I said if that is so I will not be buying a truck (I knew it was not the case.) After some conversation in Thai with my soon to be wife, they advised all they needed was the letter from Immigration. WOW, that was hard!

<deleted>, Over... Why is it that 99% of the farangs that I know here, put everything in the GF's or wife's name.

No wonder Thai people think we are all stupid.

All good info quoted by Tagaa.

Just one further point though, by getting a Yellow Tabien Baan book, the farang then has a much easier time when purchasing bikes/cars ect as this acts as ID and an Immigration Residence letter will NEVER be required again.

Dave

Dave, where can you get one of these yellow books, I have just recently heard of them and the guy told me he had to pay 7,000 baht and his wife sorted it...what is needed, how much cost, time, and where to apply??? cheers

[Thai Chi]

Good point about the Yellow Tabien Baan Dave. From what I have read, it does make life a little easier.

I beleive there is a "pinned topic" about it somewhere on TV.

I know of one guy here in Buriram that has one from a few years ago. Total cost to him was 50 baht at the time.

I tried last year to get one (new administrator) and was asked for a substantial "donation" to facilitate the proceedings

Suffice to say, I still dont have one.............yet

But this is getting away from the OP's comments...which was edited BTW for advertising....now thats intresting.

Maybe the 2 post OP was trying to drum up a bit of business

[Dave the Dude]

Maybe the 2 post OP was trying to drum up a bit of business

Sound like the sort of thing I would do, Dave. Got away with it in Post 4 Ooops

As you say there is a thread about it.

I got one about 2 months ago and It involves a trip to Immigration for Res Letter,then visit to local Amphur with wife & Poo yai Baan(plus id cards and their Tabian Baans). Further visit for interview at Amphur. Usual loads of photocopies and signatures and NOT much money at all. We told everyone that I needed it to get a driving liscence& that seemed to work.

Pain in the @rse but worth it in the long run. BTW it gives you NO additional security over the property, just makes you look less of a tourist.

SORRY

Dave

Edited October 3, 2009 by Dave the Dude