Laugh Or Cry!

[mommysboy]

Hmm Stickman and BangkokBarry. Not what I'd deem broadsheet reporting! But if true this is staggering- incredible but somehow also wholly believable. Hoax or not? Almost too neat if you see what I mean. I didn't want to link to what might be regarded as an offensive website to the average reader:

Just when you think you must have heard it all in La-La Land, something else happens that leaves you scratching your head and confirming that yes, if you live in Thailand, you are in the Twilight Zone.

Back in 2007, already after years of back and forth, arguments and delays, it was decided to construct an eastern extension of the Skytrain for a distance of a mere five kilometres. Not too big a deal, you might have thought. And yes, the work got started, and the pillars were set in place, and the track bed was laid. Those were the days, or rather nights, when anyone journeying home after midnight could often expect long traffic queues as one side of Sukhumvit was blocked off or traffic was reduced to one lane to allow the massive and impressive cranes to lift huge masses of concrete. And eventually the track work job was completed, and the stations were constructed, escalators and lifts installed, stairs were built with barriers in place at street level to stop you usefully using the new stations to cross the street. But never mind about that. It appeared as you rode by underneath the new structure, past the gleaming new stations, that the trains would be thundering by overhead any day now.

But no. This is Thailand. And although the stations are 95 percent complete, something is missing. No signals. None. No signalling system has been installed. And this is where we come to something that must be uniquely Thai. The person that was supposed to procure the signalling system didn’t do it because he was afraid of repercussions if anything went wrong. And here’s the really great thing. This went on for nine months, and no-one noticed. No-one noticed. I and others have written before about the locals being unwilling to take responsibility for anything, because of the fear of doing something wrong and losing face or worse. Actually, no. To a Thai nothing is worse than losing face. So, he was frozen into inaction. That is why Thailand is so backward in so many things. Just part of the culture. And this person, close to retirement and afraid of losing his job and pension, simply sat there for nine months and did nothing. Maybe people did notice, maybe his office staff wondered what was happening and could have had a word in someone’s ear, but of course they couldn’t question the boss. Best keep quiet and pretend everything is operating normally. What this terrified signal procurer's bosses were doing is anyone’s guess. Anyway, no signal system, so no trains, and thousands of people each day will have to continue to flood off the trains at On Nut and continue their journey by bus or taxi for years to come, travelling past the nice new stations that stand idle. According to the Bangkok Post, they cannot even begin testing the system now until late 2011. That is two years from now, and four years after they decided to build just five kilometres of new railway.

Should we be surprised? Of course not. The BTS has only recently opened a 2.2 kilometre extension across the river that was started in 2005. Government interference got in the way of that one, as even after the job was completed political fisticuffs prevented it being opened. Sod the people who were grossly inconvenienced for years. This is politics, and politicians don’t take the train so why should they care? Actually, even though the extension is now open there is still a problem. When they built the original terminal station, at Saphan Taksin, they built it with only one platform. Why? Who knows? They built all the other terminal stations with two platforms, but this is Thailand and there will be some Thai logic somewhere that dictated what they did. Now there is a bottleneck there which causes delays in the rush hour. Oh well. And while we’re on the subject of the BTS and endless delays, they are apparently studying the feasibility of running six-car trains to run through the stations that were, after all, designed for six-car trains. Don’t expect any easing of the gross and sometimes dangerous overcrowding any time soon though. Buying new cars costs money, and BTS are too busy going into the hotel business, constructing several along their routes.

The BTS situation is hardly unique though. Bangkok has a new airport, opened in September 2006. If you are in the airport you can spot a number of helpful signs pointing the way to the buses, with black tape covering the direction to the trains. Because there aren’t any. Not yet. Managing to open a railway link to downtown at the same time as opening the airport was way, way beyond anyone’s ability, despite the airport being 40 years in the planning. The contract for the Airport Rail Link was signed in January 2005, still too late for it to be ready when the airport opened, but never mind. It wouldn’t be long in coming, would it. Yes, it would. We are still waiting, nearly five years after the contract was signed and three years after the airport was opened. It was eventually expected to be ready for opening on HRH’s birthday this year, in December, but it won’t be. And even if it is, the luggage check-in service at the downtown end, at Makkasan Station, won’t be ready.

Now let’s compare Thailand’s less than impressive record in public transport construction with a couple of places overseas. In May 2005 a contract was awarded in Dubai to build a mass transit system, because traffic was so bad it was quicker to travel by camel. Work commenced in March 2006, and the first stage comprising of 10 stations was opened this month, just two and half years later. A total of 35 kilometres will be open during the first half of next year. And China announced this month that they will construct 13,000 - 13,000 THOUSAND - kilometres of high speed rail to be completed by 2012. They’ll be in a race to see if they can open their 13,000 kilometres before the BTS can open their five kilometres from On Nut.

[mahtin]

Reminds me of that African country that bought and installed post boxes and then wondered why they just sat there filling up with letters that never got delivered.

[mommysboy]

Reminds me of that African country that bought and installed post boxes and then wondered why they just sat there filling up with letters that never got delivered.

To be fair, we don't know that is a true story coming from where it does. The article makes reference to the Bangkok Post but there's no reference.

Anybody know anything?

[geriatrickid]

I think the folks in washington DC that were mashed up (allegedly) due to an outdated signal system might be more sympathetic. Or perhaps commuters in LA that were injured when the train operator that was texting passed a warning signal which resulted in carnage. If you want a dangerous system, try e London tube. On and on it goes throughout the world. Better a non-operating system than one that doesn't have the signals, I suppose.

who knows what the truth is with stories like this. I'm just happy the system isn't running if it's not safe. In the good old days, the system would have been operating. It' an improvement of sorts I suppose. At least that's what my rose tinted glasses suggest.

[ProfessorFart]

The trials of a Mass Rapid Transit system for Bangkok just rumble on and on. From Hopewell right up to now! Over 25 years of incompetence with only the few miles of BTS and Underground to show for it.

[mommysboy]

I think the folks in washington DC that were mashed up (allegedly) due to an outdated signal system might be more sympathetic. Or perhaps commuters in LA that were injured when the train operator that was texting passed a warning signal which resulted in carnage. If you want a dangerous system, try e London tube. On and on it goes throughout the world. Better a non-operating system than one that doesn't have the signals, I suppose.

who knows what the truth is with stories like this. I'm just happy the system isn't running if it's not safe. In the good old days, the system would have been operating. It' an improvement of sorts I suppose. At least that's what my rose tinted glasses suggest.

I think you've missed the point old chap! The project has been delayed 2 years because someone didn't order the signals, and everyone else turned a blind eye. Millions have been lost and thousands of people will be inconvenienced, but hey at least no one lost face!

I MEAN THIS TAKES THE FREAKIN DEAKIN BISCUIT!

What an incredible tale!

[britmaveric]

farang tink too mutt.... no worry!!

[lovelomsak]

What blows me away with this countries logic is no loss of face for total incompetence. This guy was so worried about losing face he did nothing. I cannot wrap my mind around this. Personally if it was me I would be so embarrassed I wouldnot be able to show my face in public. But here the logic is I did nothing wrong because I did nothing. Simple as that

[brahmburgers]

Everybody in a bureaucracy has to answer to someone above them.

The ding dong who didn't do his assigned job must have had a higher up who had to have noticed something, unless people were being lied to. Why didn't the person's superior put it in gear?

I've seen inertia in inaction a bunch of times since I've been in Thailand trying to get ordinarily simple things done.

[anothertorres]

sigh.... i will say, i do love it here. and if were anything different, it wouldn't be as awesome and mindboggling.

[cyb]

farang tink too mutt.... no worry!!

[lingyaiyai]

Hmm Stickman and BangkokBarry.....

1 True

2 Cry

3 TIT

[mommysboy]

Hmm Stickman and BangkokBarry.....

1 True

2 Cry

3 TIT

AWESOME

[surangw]

" This guy was so worried about losing face he did nothing."

has he been paid already?

[daveh]

I think you've missed the point old chap! The project has been delayed 2 years because someone didn't order the signals, and everyone else turned a blind eye. Millions have been lost and thousands of people will be inconvenienced, but hey at least no one lost face!

I MEAN THIS TAKES THE FREAKIN DEAKIN BISCUIT!

What an incredible tale!

How does an official not doing his job for 9 months result in a 2 year delay? Is it inflation? Or are they simply tacking on another 15 months of finger pointing.

My guess is that there are other issues besides the signaling system that need to be addressed, but this was the easiest for finding someone to blame.

[brahmburgers]

I think you've missed the point old chap! The project has been delayed 2 years because someone didn't order the signals, and everyone else turned a blind eye. Millions have been lost and thousands of people will be inconvenienced, but hey at least no one lost face!

I MEAN THIS TAKES THE FREAKIN DEAKIN BISCUIT!

What an incredible tale!

How does an official not doing his job for 9 months result in a 2 year delay? Is it inflation? Or are they simply tacking on another 15 months of finger pointing.

My guess is that there are other issues besides the signaling system that need to be addressed, but this was the easiest for finding someone to blame.

The ding dong's inaction will exacerbate the prior and subsequent inaction by other bureaucrats involved. Have you ever tried getting some gov't biz done in Thailand? Most often, it entails reams of unnecessary paperwork and stalling. If Cambodia attacked Thailand, their troops could walk to Cobra Swamp before the Thai military could mobilize.

Even with signaling equipment installed, it would take many months to get it all checked out. The serious technical work would probably be done by farang.

In a roundabout way, this could be good news for those of us who don't want to see Thailand go nuclear. It might add to delay the manifold messes that nuclear plants will bring if/when they ever get built.

Edited October 3, 2009 by brahmburgers

[johna]

More than one guy has to sign off on procurement, there's a lot more to this story than we are being told.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

good post mommysboy.

emoticoms not responding, someone should lose face over this.

[Tod Daniels]

The number of times I have seen thais pull a "deer in the headlights" antic and freeze-up rather than make simple decisions in an office environment are just too numerous mention. Even routine things like ordering office supplies can and often do turn into an "I don't want to choose wrong so I won't choose at all..." scenario.

The all pervasive mythical and alleged phenomena known as "thai culture" (which is really just generations of mass brain-washing) is the most serious impediment to this country ever moving out of "developing third world nation" status into anything resembling a first world country.

The ingrained tendency of thais to never question someone who is older or in a higher position is a real ball-breaker. Too many times it comes back down to the "I know my boss made a mistake or forgot to do something BUT because he is the boss and I can’t question him about it”. I know very few thais that can actually break out of this innate "thai-ness" or the mindset they have been programmed with since birth. It is in every level of this society from the poorest to the wealthiest (although the really wealthy are educated abroad and sometimes are able to overcome this debilitating "disability").

edited for sa-pelling. ...

Edited October 3, 2009 by tod-daniels

[DP25]

The Lao Kao swilling moto-si drivers down the block are a more reliable source of info than that guy.

[RubbaJohnny]

I believe the foriegn contractor failed to get the green light

beliving LOS was a

RED LIGHT AREA

[john b good]

Hmm Stickman and BangkokBarry. Not what I'd deem broadsheet reporting! But if true this is staggering- incredible but somehow also wholly believable. Hoax or not? Almost too neat if you see what I mean. I didn't want to link to what might be regarded as an offensive website to the average reader:

Just when you think you must have heard it all in La-La Land, something else happens that leaves you scratching your head and confirming that yes, if you live in Thailand, you are in the Twilight Zone.

Back in 2007, already after years of back and forth, arguments and delays, it was decided to construct an eastern extension of the Skytrain for a distance of a mere five kilometres. Not too big a deal, you might have thought. And yes, the work got started, and the pillars were set in place, and the track bed was laid. Those were the days, or rather nights, when anyone journeying home after midnight could often expect long traffic queues as one side of Sukhumvit was blocked off or traffic was reduced to one lane to allow the massive and impressive cranes to lift huge masses of concrete. And eventually the track work job was completed, and the stations were constructed, escalators and lifts installed, stairs were built with barriers in place at street level to stop you usefully using the new stations to cross the street. But never mind about that. It appeared as you rode by underneath the new structure, past the gleaming new stations, that the trains would be thundering by overhead any day now.

But no. This is Thailand. And although the stations are 95 percent complete, something is missing. No signals. None. No signalling system has been installed. And this is where we come to something that must be uniquely Thai. The person that was supposed to procure the signalling system didn’t do it because he was afraid of repercussions if anything went wrong. And here’s the really great thing. This went on for nine months, and no-one noticed. No-one noticed. I and others have written before about the locals being unwilling to take responsibility for anything, because of the fear of doing something wrong and losing face or worse. Actually, no. To a Thai nothing is worse than losing face. So, he was frozen into inaction. That is why Thailand is so backward in so many things. Just part of the culture. And this person, close to retirement and afraid of losing his job and pension, simply sat there for nine months and did nothing. Maybe people did notice, maybe his office staff wondered what was happening and could have had a word in someone’s ear, but of course they couldn’t question the boss. Best keep quiet and pretend everything is operating normally. What this terrified signal procurer's bosses were doing is anyone’s guess. Anyway, no signal system, so no trains, and thousands of people each day will have to continue to flood off the trains at On Nut and continue their journey by bus or taxi for years to come, travelling past the nice new stations that stand idle. According to the Bangkok Post, they cannot even begin testing the system now until late 2011. That is two years from now, and four years after they decided to build just five kilometres of new railway.

Should we be surprised? Of course not. The BTS has only recently opened a 2.2 kilometre extension across the river that was started in 2005. Government interference got in the way of that one, as even after the job was completed political fisticuffs prevented it being opened. Sod the people who were grossly inconvenienced for years. This is politics, and politicians don’t take the train so why should they care? Actually, even though the extension is now open there is still a problem. When they built the original terminal station, at Saphan Taksin, they built it with only one platform. Why? Who knows? They built all the other terminal stations with two platforms, but this is Thailand and there will be some Thai logic somewhere that dictated what they did. Now there is a bottleneck there which causes delays in the rush hour. Oh well. And while we’re on the subject of the BTS and endless delays, they are apparently studying the feasibility of running six-car trains to run through the stations that were, after all, designed for six-car trains. Don’t expect any easing of the gross and sometimes dangerous overcrowding any time soon though. Buying new cars costs money, and BTS are too busy going into the hotel business, constructing several along their routes.

The BTS situation is hardly unique though. Bangkok has a new airport, opened in September 2006. If you are in the airport you can spot a number of helpful signs pointing the way to the buses, with black tape covering the direction to the trains. Because there aren’t any. Not yet. Managing to open a railway link to downtown at the same time as opening the airport was way, way beyond anyone’s ability, despite the airport being 40 years in the planning. The contract for the Airport Rail Link was signed in January 2005, still too late for it to be ready when the airport opened, but never mind. It wouldn’t be long in coming, would it. Yes, it would. We are still waiting, nearly five years after the contract was signed and three years after the airport was opened. It was eventually expected to be ready for opening on HRH’s birthday this year, in December, but it won’t be. And even if it is, the luggage check-in service at the downtown end, at Makkasan Station, won’t be ready.

Now let’s compare Thailand’s less than impressive record in public transport construction with a couple of places overseas. In May 2005 a contract was awarded in Dubai to build a mass transit system, because traffic was so bad it was quicker to travel by camel. Work commenced in March 2006, and the first stage comprising of 10 stations was opened this month, just two and half years later. A total of 35 kilometres will be open during the first half of next year. And China announced this month that they will construct 13,000 - 13,000 THOUSAND - kilometres of high speed rail to be completed by 2012. They’ll be in a race to see if they can open their 13,000 kilometres before the BTS can open their five kilometres from On Nut.

Can't fault you on anything you say (leastaways not in this posting) Everything "well almost everything" that you say could have come from my own keyboard.

But remember ya gotta be careful b'cos no one is allowed to slight the denizens of the realm.

But regardless, nothing is gonna change in the next hundred years.

Edited October 3, 2009 by john b good

[brahmburgers]

With such a sizable project, there must have been some people relying upon that equipment being on-site. When the equipment didn't show up, what did the others do? My guess is they did pretty much nothing. Sample dialogue among coordinators of the project.......

Head Mechanic Somchai: "Yup, the track is done, now we're waiting for the signaling equipment, so we can install it. Porntip, do you know where the equipment is?"

Secretary Porntip: "Don't know, Somchai. I was going to call the office of signal equipment procurement, but I couldn't find the phone number, because phone books don't exist in Thailand."

(3 weeks later) Mechanic Somchai: "Ms Porntip, why don't you drive across town and ask at his office?"

Secretary Porntip: "Are you kidding? I could leave at 9 am and would be lucky to arrive at the office on the other side of town by 4 pm. Plus, I would miss my skin whitening appointment."

(several weeks later) Mechanic Somchai: "Can you send him an email, asking about the status of the signaling equipment?"

Secretary Porntip: "He's old school, and doesn't know how to use email. I tried writing him a letter, but the Thai alphabet on the keyboard was too confusing, and didn't even have the numbers in the same keys as numbers for farang keyboard."

(additional weeks later) Mechanic Somchai: "Why the heck can't we find out when the signaling equipment will arrive on site? We've got everything else ready, and we need the equipment in order to proceed with the project."

Secretary Porntip: "Somchai, you must not be full blooded Thai. If you were, you'd know that being insistent like that is 'mai supap' (not proper). Thai people are always 'jai yen' (cool headed), and refuse to respond to pressure."

Edited October 3, 2009 by brahmburgers

[clinique]

The number of times I have seen thais pull a "deer in the headlights" antic and freeze-up rather than make simple decisions in an office environment are just too numerous mention. Even routine things like ordering office supplies can and often do turn into an "I don't want to choose wrong so I won't choose at all..." scenario.

The all pervasive mythical and alleged phenomena known as "thai culture" (which is really just generations of mass brain-washing) is the most serious impediment to this country ever moving out of "developing third world nation" status into anything resembling a first world country.

The ingrained tendency of thais to never question someone who is older or in a higher position is a real ball-breaker. Too many times it comes back down to the "I know my boss made a mistake or forgot to do something BUT because he is the boss and I can't question him about it". I know very few thais that can actually break out of this innate "thai-ness" or the mindset they have been programmed with since birth. It is in every level of this society from the poorest to the wealthiest (although the really wealthy are educated abroad and sometimes are able to overcome this debilitating "disability").

edited for sa-pelling. ...

well said !

[clinique]

Just to be a little picky,,, and show absolute respect ... the eh..hum ...Birthday in December is for HM , he is not an HRH.

[Rumfoord]

I think you've missed the point old chap! The project has been delayed 2 years because someone didn't order the signals, and everyone else turned a blind eye. Millions have been lost and thousands of people will be inconvenienced, but hey at least no one lost face!

I MEAN THIS TAKES THE FREAKIN DEAKIN BISCUIT!

What an incredible tale!

How does an official not doing his job for 9 months result in a 2 year delay? Is it inflation? Or are they simply tacking on another 15 months of finger pointing.

My guess is that there are other issues besides the signaling system that need to be addressed, but this was the easiest for finding someone to blame.

it's hyperbole and telling only half of the facts to get that superior feeling that grumpy old white men need when they have their "expert talk" on thailand.

scheduled test run was original set for December 2010, now comes the delay and the official said in the bangkok post they cannot be sure if they are ready at mid-2011, because the consulting and bidding process normally takes about seven months.

Thaivisa rules don't allow links to the Bangkok Post. but The Nation has also a small article on this :

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30112654

Skytrain delay: deputy city clerk blamed

Deputy Bangkok Governor Thirachon Manomaipiboon yesterday blamed a deputy city clerk for the delay in the Skytrain extension between On Nut and Soi Bearing.

The test run along the route was initially scheduled to start late next year.

"Because this deputy city clerk is approaching his retirement age, he has chosen to play safe by refusing to sign crucial documents relating to this route," Thirachon said.

He did not name the deputy city clerk.

"He is worried about the risk of being charged with negligence because he has seen what happened to former city clerk Khunying Nathanon Thavisin," Thirachon said.

The National AntiCorruption Commission has indicted Nathanon for her role in the firevehicle scandal. She was accused of being negligent.

According to Thirachon, the provider of the signal and electrical systems on the On NutSoi Bearing route should have been looked for as many as nine months ago.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30112654

just await and see the final outcome of the firetruck scandal after all dust is settled or that could be also seen as somekind of a silent protest or strike by that city clerk. unsatisfied with the internal measure the name, shame and blame process within the administration and now refusing to be pushed and afterwards getting the blame for being negligent if there some minor flaws in the contracts. not to sign "crucial documents" hmm, whatever that means. maybe the best offer came from a company that is somehow connected to a certain family or is otherwise hot, better avoiding a political mine field at this time.

ps. and who is that BangkokWoody? and if his website cannot be linked here, because it didn't get along with the holy Thaivisa rules you should also not copy&paste his work here. that is not fair. links and references are the essential things in the world wide web. as user i want to read the text on its original site. if the SEO master of this place is too stingy to give somebody else credit, because a link could help to increase the pagerank of the other site, than the content should not appear here to increase his own pageview rate.

[brahmburgers]

Skytrain delay: deputy city clerk blamed[/b]

Deputy Bangkok Governor Thirachon Manomaipiboon yesterday blamed a deputy city clerk for the delay in the Skytrain extension between On Nut and Soi Bearing.

The test run along the route was initially scheduled to start late next year.

"Because this deputy city clerk is approaching his retirement age, he has chosen to play safe by refusing to sign crucial documents relating to this route," Thirachon said.

He did not name the deputy city clerk.

"He is worried about the risk of being charged with negligence because he has seen what happened to former city clerk Khunying Nathanon Thavisin," Thirachon said.

The National AntiCorruption Commission has indicted Nathanon for her role in the firevehicle scandal. She was accused of being negligent.

According to Thirachon, the provider of the signal and electrical systems on the On NutSoi Bearing route should have been looked for as many as nine months ago.

- from Nation newspaper

thanks for the above quote. It sheds light on an aspect of a near-dysfunctional bureaucracy. It's akin to a little schoolboy who won't do his homework because he's afraid of any corrections from his teacher.

BTW, if the ding dong is 'deputy city clerk', then there must be a 'city clerk' (above him) that he has to answer to. Who's the City Clerk who outranks the guy who can do nothing better than sit on his hands for months? Surely, he/she should hold responsibility for the ineptitude of people working under him/her.

....oh sorry, I forgot that 'responsibility' is a odd western concept not embraced within the Thai character.

Off topic, but got to say it: One glaring example of how non-responsibility is ingrained in the Thai psyche, is the complete lack of repercussions (legal or social) for deadbeat dads.

Edited October 4, 2009 by brahmburgers