Should A Woman Be Allowed to hold the office of President of the USA?

[sbk]

Given this news post regarding new projects in Rayong:

Court Injunction Halts 76 New Industrial Projects In Rayong, pollution concerns

Do you think the halt is justified? Will it further damage investor confidence in Thailand? It seems there is a fine line to be trod here, what do you think the government should do?

[paulvingt]

Yes - I think this is a fine example of the community's, country's and local people's interest over those of the evil CAPITALISTS. The environment is something over which we can not negotiate - these businesses should think of the impact of their evil actions rather than just MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. Greed is what lead to the global financial crisis and again these businesses are only interested in thier own self vested interests. If things continue like this (busines interests winning over the rights of the local people), then eventually we will all die because of smog, pollution, global warming etc.

I applaud the court's verdict and I hope that it is not overturned.

[pieter73]

Yes - I think this is a fine example of the community's, country's and local people's interest over those of the evil CAPITALISTS. The environment is something over which we can not negotiate - these businesses should think of the impact of their evil actions rather than just MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. Greed is what lead to the global financial crisis and again these businesses are only interested in thier own self vested interests. If things continue like this (busines interests winning over the rights of the local people), then eventually we will all die because of smog, pollution, global warming etc.

I applaud the court's verdict and I hope that it is not overturned.

No its stupid .. new projects are a must for this country..

Only rich people with enough money can afford to say things like you do...

It has nothing to do with rights....

Local people want first enough to eat and second a big flatscreen TV and 3th a big car and a little bit some good education for their children

come on dream on...

Peter

[jasreeve17]

Peter, folks can't feed or educate their children when they're dead; Look at the health studies, never mind the environmental impacts...

People's welfare and environmental concerns must come before profit and easy cash. That's why we have laws, which the courts are doing well to uphold - under duress from politicians acting on behalf of industry, and in direct conflict with their responsibility to the people who voted for them...

[thaihome]

Peter, folks can't feed or educate their children when they're dead; Look at the health studies, never mind the environmental impacts...

People's welfare and environmental concerns must come before profit and easy cash. That's why we have laws, which the courts are doing well to uphold - under duress from politicians acting on behalf of industry, and in direct conflict with their responsibility to the people who voted for them...

The problem is what is actually happening has very little to do with protecting people’s future health and all about local activist groups and NGO’s demanding that they get payoffs in form of “community programs” funded by the companies wanting to build new projects. Every single one of the projects in this lawsuit are in full compliance with existing laws, including IEA and HIA studies that have either been done or will be done as the projects develop. What is really funny is several of the stopped projects are actual environmental projects such as starting clean fuel production to be in compliance with Euro 4 standards.

Note that not a word is said about cleaning up existing problems or plants. They have not figured out to get money of doing that.

TH

[jasreeve17]

TH said: 'Note that not a word is said about cleaning up existing problems or plants. They have not figured out to get money of doing that.'

Yep, that's the awful thing TH. The state of the area is awful, well it's worse than that; it's deadly. My feeling is that all expansion needs to be stopped until existing problems are solved. As I said in another thread I've seen quite a few presentations (independent student projects) on this problem over the last couple of weeks, and it's unbelievably bad. I suspect many posters on this site have no idea about the severity of the problem...

Edited October 7, 2009 by jasreeve17

[thaihome]

Well, though there is some groundwater contamination, limited to a small area, and at times there are significant emissions of organic compounds from specific plants. I do think that some NGO’s, with support of some academic researchers have overblown the problem for their own interest.

In all fairness, for an over 20 year old industrial estate in a developing country specializing in petro chemicals it is not as bad as most. I do think that pressure should be maintained on continuing the efforts that had already started 2 years ago. This particular effort is a waste of time and money, but is typical of how the environmental NGO’s operate around the world.

Have you ever been inside the Map Ta Phut estate and the surrounding area? Have you ever been to a similar estate in say China? Indonesia? Malaysia? Brazil? Germany? USA?

TH

[jasreeve17]

TH, do you work in the industry? You do make some reasonable points, with bias, perhaps?

The burning, the toxins, the leaking of pipes on land and under sea, the chemicals used, the intensity of the built up area; amongst housing communities, massive sea pollution, massive air pollution, ground water pollution, extreme rates of leukemia and other cancers which are directly linked to the byproduct pollutants from the industries. The problem is far greater than you're suggesting, and comparing Thai problems with international problems doesn't magically eradicate our problems or take away our local responsibilities...

This area is a huge problem, which as you rightly state, is unsolved. We should not be heaping more problems upon the existing problems - and let's be honest here: it's for financial gain, pure and simple.

This whole area is a case of money being more important than peoples lives and the environment. You can try to belittle the fact by talking about economic gains, but dead people with deformed kids and infertile land wouldn't agree with you - of course they don't benefit very much economically anyways. (You could study the list of coutries you gave to prove this point - add Nigeria to easily see the benefits to local people: none!)

[jasreeve17]

Well, it damaged my confidence, and I sold my holdings in the stock. Sure Im not the only one....

Vibe, with all due respect, I care more about the health of the local kids than I do your portfolio...

(I'm sure you must be throwing a line, but I'll bite anyway. )

[jasreeve17]

Vibe, you are ranting. You don't know me, and you're not ably defending the pollution issue either.

I can assure you that I practice what I preach, making choices for sustainability. I also work to educate others on the issue, for positive sustainable change... Because, as you say, we are all part of the global problem, and we must all 'buy into' the global solution - well said.

With regard to the specific issue: the companies involved are directly responsible and must act accordingly. Ranting at me won't take away their responsibility.

[jasreeve17]

Well, it damaged my confidence, and I sold my holdings in the stock. Sure Im not the only one....

Vibe, with all due respect, I care more about the health of the local kids than I do your portfolio...

(I'm sure you must be throwing a line, but I'll bite anyway. )

The health of the local kids is NOT your responsibility, so why are you trying to make it yours? There would would be a much better place if everyone focused on themselves and theirs instead of what they think is in the best interest of others. Your intentions may be good, but it just does not work that way. This, is the reality.

I care more about my OWN health than I do about the local kids, so does that make me a bad person? That I would use profits from my stocks to better MY OWN situation? My own life is the only one that I have direct control over, so I tend to focus on that, that which I can control.

To answer your question: Yes, it does make you a bad (selfish, irresponsible, insensitive, socially damaging) person.

[pieter73]

The big solution is that people stop to make children

I have been in Rayong and did a project overthere ...

It is when we also had to stop for a week because the washed water plant was not good and that was before we even had any washed water

There where some complains about smell (before it was started )

So after coming home with another 200 plastic bags after a visit to the supermarket..

and looked around into Bangkok ..(one of the dirty's cities I know )

Yes this is the future of the earth

New project should never be held responsible for the past

[quiksilva]

Its a case of money and the old NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) problem that is found throughout the world.

Thailand(like any developing (or developed) country needs heavy industry, and it certainly could do with the investment right now.

But certainly not at any cost, and nobody wants it near them, but somebody will eventually have the unfortunate luck of living nearby.

If these projects comply with EIA , IEAT, and official standards then I don't see the legal validity in the court's injunction.

The villagers could be well within their rights to complain and bring attention to their plight if the official standards are set too low, but they are not that bad, check them out yourself at www.pcd.go.th they make numerous reference to the standards set by the US Environmental Protection Agency. Of course the people have right to petition the government to raise them, further, but that should not stand in the way of progress (unless it was seriously life threatening)

But the standards then are not problem, as is the case throughout Thailand, the real issue is enforcement.

The penalties for environmental contamination in this country are pitifully low. I have heard of a case where a factory had severely contaminated the ground with lead and was fined the grand total of THB 20,000. !! Hardly what one could call a deterrent to polluters. Something similar in the US could fetch damages in the millions.

So whilst it is good to see the court taking an active interest in environmental issues, punishments such as this, halting many much needed investment projects before they have even got off the ground is a mistake, and it could prove to be very costly to everyone in Thailand.

What the courts need to do, is enforce existing standards, and properly punish those who have been found to be actual polluters.

This is of course a difficult and expensive process, requiring specialist skill sets, which might explain why enforcement in this area is a joke.

[thaihome]

TH, do you work in the industry? You do make some reasonable points, with bias, perhaps?

The burning, the toxins, the leaking of pipes on land and under sea, the chemicals used, the intensity of the built up area; amongst housing communities, massive sea pollution, massive air pollution, ground water pollution, extreme rates of leukemia and other cancers which are directly linked to the byproduct pollutants from the industries. The problem is far greater than you're suggesting, and comparing Thai problems with international problems doesn't magically eradicate our problems or take away our local responsibilities...

This area is a huge problem, which as you rightly state, is unsolved. We should not be heaping more problems upon the existing problems - and let's be honest here: it's for financial gain, pure and simple.

This whole area is a case of money being more important than peoples lives and the environment. You can try to belittle the fact by talking about economic gains, but dead people with deformed kids and infertile land wouldn't agree with you - of course they don't benefit very much economically anyways. (You could study the list of coutries you gave to prove this point - add Nigeria to easily see the benefits to local people: none!)

Yes, I do indeed work in the industry and in the very area under discussion. Perhaps what you perceive as bias, is in fact knowledge of the situation that you do not have.

Local people benefit. Rayong province enjoys the highest wage rate and lowest unemployment rate for all of Thailand. People come from all over Thailand to work there. The majority of the people benefit greatly from the development. To compare this to what is going on in Nigeria is an insult to Thailand and shows how ignorant you are of the industry and how much you have been brainwashed by the tree-huggers.

The housing areas that are adjacent to the site are mostly there because of the estate and the surrounding support businesses. In almost every case, people choose to live there. I also take exception to your statement on massive sea pollution. To my knowledge, no plant discharges directly into the sea any longer and has not for some time. In case you didn’t notice, there is a very large fishing industry based in the Rayong area and all you have to look out over the ocean every night and see the huge numbers of fishing trawlers out there to see it.

Yes, in some of the older plants there are discharges which have caused leukemia and other cancer clusters in cases where people are directly downwind or have used shallow wells for household water. The rates for Rayong are the highest in Thailand and something needs to be done and is being done to keep this from continuing.

What I fail to see is how stopping plants that have or will undergo extensive environmental scrutiny and will meet all international standards is going help the current situation or make it worse. In any case, it is very hard to believe the people behind this are sincere in their motivations when I have witnessed myself local people coming to complain and when the offer is made to give each person their household a cash payment or some other personal benefit they withdraw any objection.

The companies involved would be glad to have a systematic, open discussion of impact of their plants that comes to fair conclusion rather then the current system of preparing a detailed IEA study, following it exactly, and then still having to make payments.

Now, if all you want to do is stop development, then I suggest you listen to the poster who mentioned all the products you need to stop buying. I might add, in addition to virtually all the plastic used in Thailand, this would include your computer and mobile phone as one of the leading producers of tantalum is located there (look it up). Oh, and you can’t drive a car as 3 gasoline and diesel producing refineries are there (3 of the other 4 are within 20 km), and you cannot use any electricity as about 75% of the natural gas comes ashore there and is processed before being piped to power plants. The list goes on and on.

TH

[jasreeve17]

TH, you basically reinforced what I said; many forms of pollution, luekemia, other cancers, corruption, intense industry mixed amongst living areas...

With regard to the other porsters comments; I won't bother having a discussion with a poster who feels that his financial portfolio is more important to him than local children's health...

As far as a global answer goes, as I'm sure you know full well, we must use a multitude of efforts to divert away from polluting fossil fuels towards sustainable and people / environment friendly solutions. The days of raping our resources without care will soon be over; either because we over-pollute the planet and all die... Or, because the resources just run out... Nobody knows for sure...

I like the way you got passionate about the Nigeria analogy; it shows that you understand how big industries and corrupt governments can work together to thoroughly rape a nation. This is a danger in our home that we must protect against.

My argument remains the same: until the existing industries are completely cleaned up and we can trust the industry / laws / politicians. then we should not be building more and more industries. Firstly, we need to manage what we have - which you keep pointing out we have not. Let's start at the beginning and make it right, instead of just focussing on making more money. Frankly, these businesses have proven incapable and unwilling to sacrifice profits and correctly maintain their businesses. For example:

Thaihome said: 'Yes, in some of the older plants there are discharges which have caused leukemia and other cancer clusters in cases where people are directly downwind or have used shallow wells for household water. The rates for Rayong are the highest in Thailand and something needs to be done and is being done to keep this from continuing.'

Well, TH, let's fix these problems first before looking for more profits...

[jasreeve17]

VIBE said: 'Are you religious by chance? Not one the the missionaries I see riding around on bikes trying to convert the locals are you??

You know nothing about me, or how I give to those that are more needy than myself. You my friend, live in a bubble of ignorance. Just because I care more for my own well being does not mean I dont help those that need it. Think about it.'

I retort: I thought about your statements above, and answered according to them.

I thought your line where you stated you care more about your OWN health than you do about the local kids... was a little gem. Says a lot about you...

[thaihome]

blah, blah, ...

I note with some dismay that you continue to focus on an issue that is not even the subject of the current problem. Nor have you addressed how stopping current projects is going to help someone that is exposed to chemicals in the groundwater. Your statement about not letting profits go on smacks of punishing companies that had nothing to do with current problems and your continuing reference to it certainly identifies your true political beliefs.

Like I said, the day you quit taking full advantage of the world we live into today (such as posting on Internet forums), then you can criticize the people that provide that world and do it because they make money at it.

At the same time, why don't you go to the MAp Ta Phut area and go around and tell the hundreds of thousands of people that make a living there you think they should all go back upcountry and grow rice and give up all ambition to join you in the developed world...

TH

[jasreeve17]

Thaihome, you are choosing not to see...

I stated very clearly: The current industries are causing huge problems - as per the long list that we both added, I used your Leukemia and other cancers example. If the current industries cannot be correctly managed, and they can't as you have said several times, then we need to fix that before we expand. Simple: Something is not working properly. First, fix it.

We have seen that the current industries are causing huge problems (yes, many benefits too), and these problems are killing people and destroying the environment. No, I am not joking or over-reacting, they are killing people and destroying the environment. That is a fact. When these problems are fixed, so that the industries no longer kill people and destroy the environment then we can look to expand the industries.

Your second paragraph is nonsense. I am all for the free market economy and making money. However, I believe that the big dollar sign does not take away responsibilities. I'm sure you do not support the ill practise that causes kids to die from luekemia; neither do I. Secondly, I'd prefer to make less profit now, personally, and for my grandchildren and great grandchildren to live a healthier life in a better environment. Yes, I do care more for our children than I care for myself.

Regarding your last sentence: I simply said we must clean up the current industries; I did not say close them down...

Edited October 7, 2009 by jasreeve17

[GuestHouse]

A point to note here is that the industries in the affected area are all major national and international corporations, most of which have procedures and corporate statements which specifically address environmental impacts.

Further more, an environmental impact study is a requirement to obtaining a permit to build and operate any of the plants built and operating in the affected area.

On top of this, the basis of design will include assumptions and commitments made in the environmental impact study - The amount and kind of emissions from a modern (ie built in the last 20 years) process plant is a key factor in the design of the plant.

And finally, the reports of emissions, health hazards and environmental damage incidents in the area to which the court ruling applies are not new - They have been mainstream press issues for over a decade - a decade in which the megga buck corporations have had a chance to put their house in order.

They've done exactly what one might expect in Thailand - Ignored their own procedures and practices, ignored international procedures and practices (that many of them adhere to outside of Thailand), ignored public and local opinion (despite many having blurb in their company publications about being part of and caring for the community) and they have ignored the law.

The ruling is in this sense a very positive one that bodes well for the Thai industrial investment sector - Yes you can do business here but you are not going to walk over Thailand, its people and its laws.

The poster above bleating on about only being concerned for his own profit needs to take a look at where that attitude got us all in the wider financial markets.

Far from personal share holder greed being the driving force that will give us viable and sustainable markets, viable and sustainable industry and commerce - it is the abdication of share holders in caring anything about what the companies that they own, other than the personal profit, that has got the world and the wold markets into the mess they are now.

As a share holder in a company that pollutes the environment and damages the health of workers and the local community, your profit is in part accredited to the ignoring of practices, laws, opinions and the actual environmental damage that results from doing only what turns a profit.

[GuestHouse]

Please forgive me, I had no intention of hitting a raw nerve.

[rfukata]

Given this news post regarding new projects in Rayong:

Court Injunction Halts 76 New Industrial Projects In Rayong, pollution concerns

Do you think the halt is justified? Will it further damage investor confidence in Thailand? It seems there is a fine line to be trod here, what do you think the government should do?

Pollution-related health scares are common in Thailand, where an emphasis on economic growth has lead to widespread disregard for environmental protection. Corrupted politician mis-lead business leaders to invest in these area to gain monetary value.

The injunction ruling is not strange, the court is only upholding the Law which somehow has been neglected or breached by

the corrupted governing body.

In the short term investment confidence will be impacted, also affecting local employment hires. Hopefully for the long term, upon

revised environment studies and technology upgrades, business should return. (there has to be a fine time line set, and some government compensation guarantee for businesses affected otherwise businesses will not return for ever)