Undiplomatic Remarks From Foreign Office Mandarins

[TAWP]

And the comments are not *supposed* to be diplomatic, they are informal, internal, information-snippets to their successors.

That they are now 'public material' is unfortunate for the diplomats, as they had no way of preparing themselves for retroactive freedom of information-acts.

[IanForbes]

Although everything written is often taken out of context for sensational purposes, I found the rantings of the various diplomates to be typical of pompous people who have lived with wealth and were protected by the local authorities. There are very good reasons why the Monty Python skits were and are so humourous... they are accurate depictions of what really happens... only taken to the extreme.

And, there was probably a good bit of truth to what the diplomates said.

[mrtoad]

And the comments are not *supposed* to be diplomatic, they are informal, internal, information-snippets to their successors.

That they are now 'public material' is unfortunate for the diplomats, as they had no way of preparing themselves for retroactive freedom of information-acts.

Agree on that, and also the fact that thse comments are 40 years old - so I really can't understand why people are getting so upset about it.

[jayboy]

Sir_Anthony_Rumbold.pdf

[Ulysses G.]

And the comments are not *supposed* to be diplomatic, they are informal, internal, information-snippets to their successors.

That they are now 'public material' is unfortunate for the diplomats, as they had no way of preparing themselves for retroactive freedom of information-acts.

Agree on that, and also the fact that thse comments are 40 years old - so I really can't understand why people are getting so upset about it.

Political Correctness!

[loong]

Thank you Jayboy for the the very interesting PDF of his whole report.

Having read it all, it is clear that this man was far from ignorant and it is a shame that the news article just concentrated on a few sentences to achieve their sensationalist ends.

[samuibeachcomber]

Interesting to see how the "colonial mentality" extended well beyond the Empire's colonial days...

I would gues these comments are typically british,a class thing,stuck up and they think they are so superior

hel_l, to feel inferior to Thais you have to suffer from a serious low self esteem problem !

funny reply,my gripe is that they feel superior to everyone,its a typical "upper class british trait" that was very much alive back yonder,and perhaps(i'll give them this) not so much today as the great british isles goes down the tube swamped in debt and mass immigration.

[Ulysses G.]

Let's face facts, in practical term high class Brits were superior to most of the world. They had much better educations than almost everyone and an Empire that covered the world. They caused a lot of sh-t, but they also made a lot of improvements in countries that they conquered. Many Indians still miss them!

[harrry]

Yes the report as a whole does not have much in common with the comments on this thread. I was impressed and I am certainly no friends of people in the Diplomatic service of most countries. I found man of his comments perceptive. In particular his comments about the effect of the ending of the Vietnam War and recall the very fast way in which the US forces were "returned" to their own countries. I was here at the time and wish I had had his oportunities to observe the country.

[geriatrickid]

Tempest in a teapot. Put the comments in context. Yes Thai music would sound odd to an Englishman, but so too would have the Beatles to a Thai. She loves you yea, yea, yea. Eloquent lyrics indeed.

Why would anyone be overly concerned about the comments diplomats coming from a country that was in steep economic decline and growing frustrated as the world passed it by? The era in which the comments were made was marked by coal stained skies, labour unrest and a society in economic distress. England was a nation that still had rationing into the 1950's. It's the time when England's hi so foreign service was distinguished by several high level betrayals.

Who cares if a bunch of English diplomats slagged Canada or Australia? We talk of losing face in Thailand. Think about it. If you were an Englishman of that era, you'd be jealous and feeling insignificant knowing that it was the Canadian 1st Army that was the only fully functioning force that stood between England and Germany after the loss in France and. You'd be resentful too knowing that Canada was the country that kept the Atlantic convoy route open during England's darkest hour and that Commonwealth troops were the difference between England's survival and death. You'd be envious of the happy Australians and their burgeoning economy and effervescent enthusiasm. The toilets flush in Australia and even though many Australians come from the UK and Eire, no one makes fun of Australian teeth or inbreeding, do they? So let the words of a bygone era be the hot air that they were.

[jayboy]

Thank you Jayboy for the the very interesting PDF of his whole report.

Having read it all, it is clear that this man was far from ignorant and it is a shame that the news article just concentrated on a few sentences to achieve their sensationalist ends.

Thanks.My earlier post was highly sarcastic -although it"s illuminating how many took it at face value- because the Ambassador was absolutely accurate in his comments, albeit over forty years ago.The strange aspect is how much is still relevant.

[samuibeachcomber]

fair comment GK,but i would like one last parting shot.the reason for my less than kind comments is that i grew up in england in the 50's and 60's and i just could n't stand the class system that was so prevelant then,the old school tie etc,the "what school did you go to" and "what does your father do for a living". I got out of the country at 22 and never regretted leaving.even today you still see and hear the those same attitudes but to a lesser degree.

[cmsally]

Sir_Anthony_Rumbold.pdf

Astounding, only goes to show what happens when things are taken out of context!

A very interesting, intelligent and intuitive report..

[Thai at Heart]

Sir_Anthony_Rumbold.pdf

Astounding, only goes to show what happens when things are taken out of context!

A very interesting, intelligent and intuitive report..

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

In many parts it was almost like reading a commentary from last Sunday's political and opinion section. The names change but the issues and character traits are still very relevant today. Very interesting.

[loong]

Thank you Jayboy for the the very interesting PDF of his whole report.

Having read it all, it is clear that this man was far from ignorant and it is a shame that the news article just concentrated on a few sentences to achieve their sensationalist ends.

Thanks.My earlier post was highly sarcastic -although it"s illuminating how many took it at face value- because the Ambassador was absolutely accurate in his comments, albeit over forty years ago.The strange aspect is how much is still relevant.

Yes, your earlier post was sarcastic. I'm very impressed that you took the time and effort to actually dig out the full report and share it with us. Thanks for that, I hope that a few people will actually have the mettle to change their opinions now.

[chiang mai]

Sir_Anthony_Rumbold.pdf

Astounding, only goes to show what happens when things are taken out of context!

A very interesting, intelligent and intuitive report..

Agreed, but honestly, we might have known that from the outset without the benefit of the interesting, but still "chip on shoulder" debate, that ensued.

[citizen33]

I'm another one who thought the original letter was more interesting and less objectionable than I had expected. The offending passages are in a section that takes the form of: "It is true that X, Y and Z... but....", which on my reading came across as something like: "My acquaintances may say these things and they may have a point, but I still see a lot to admire in this country". I liked the ambassador's comments about Dr Puey.

[seri thai]

"for envy" what is there to envy? i am from the UK but i cannot stand these types of people who think they are so superior to all others and belittle other countries.monty python used to lampoon them very well "upper class twit of the year" skit comes to mind.

Don't think I am superior at all, but facts are facts and the British Empire is the largest to date. be proud of your country man. The Empire changed the world and it was not all bad.

Cheers, Rick

"Now two boys have been found rubbing linseed oil

into the school cormorant. Now some of you may feel that the

cormorant does not play an important part in the life of the

school but I remind you that it was presented to us by the

Corporation of the town of Sudbury to commemorate Empire Day,

when we try to remember the names of all those from the

Sudbury area so gallantly gave their lives to keep China

British. So from now on the cormorant is strictly out of

bounds. Oh... and Jenkins... apparently your mother died this

morning."

-Monty Python ("Gor bless 'em Mum")

"When you're wounded and dying on Afghanistans plains

And the women come out to cut up your remains,

Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier"

-Rudyard Kipling

"The greatest lesson my country taught me was not to be proud of it."

-Seri Thai

[TheWalkingMan]

Thanks for posting and it was an interesting read. Many of the criticism outlined are some of the same complaints today. If you have time, please read it.

TheWalkingMan

[jayboy]

I particularly liked his closing comment:

"And if anybody wants to know what their culture consists of the answer is that it consists of themselves, their excellent manners, their fastidious habits, their graceful gestures and their elegant persons.If we are elephants and oxen they are gazelles and butterflies"

[Huey]

The Thais came out poorly too, in the eyes of Sir Anthony Rumbold, who served in Bangkok from 1965-67.

"They have no literature, no painting and only a very odd kind of music; their sculpture, ceramics and dancing are borrowed from others, and their architecture is monotonous and interior decoration hideous," he recalled.

"Nobody can deny that gambling and golf are the chief pleasures of the rich, and that licentiousness is the main pleasure of them all."

That is just so untrue.What possibly could have led a British Ambassador to make such ignorant comments?

Did you rub shoulders with the rich in Thailand from 1965 to 1967? Were you living in Thailand during that period. If not, then you have no grounds to contradict. If so, please give us your impression of the Thais in the 1960's.

Ok Sure you make a great point in that if you were not around here in Thailand during the late 60's it's kinda hard to say what the social habits of the Thais were like back then.

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

[jayboy]

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post reminding us of the need for intellectual rigour.Clearly what this diplomat needed was to sit through a number of the "cool movies" you mention (which would probably make him the first to do so without expiring from boredom), and thence to re-assess his view on the modest achievements of Thai culture.One small request, could you remind us of the great works of Thai literature that are universally acknowledged to rank with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

[caf]

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post reminding us of the need for intellectual rigour.Clearly what this diplomat needed was to sit through a number of the "cool movies" you mention (which would probably make him the first to do so without expiring from boredom), and thence to re-assess his view on the modest achievements of Thai culture.One small request, could you remind us of the great works of Thai literature that are universally acknowledged to rank with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

I have already asked for that information. Thais are not great readers. Do you see them reading or even having books in their homes.

[Samuian]

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post reminding us of the need for intellectual rigour.Clearly what this diplomat needed was to sit through a number of the "cool movies" you mention (which would probably make him the first to do so without expiring from boredom), and thence to re-assess his view on the modest achievements of Thai culture.One small request, could you remind us of the great works of Thai literature that are universally acknowledged to rank with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

I have already asked for that information. Thais are not great readers. Do you see them reading or even having books in their homes.

I have already asked for that information. Thais are not great readers. Do you see them reading or even having books in their homes.

yep, cheap Comic and ghost stories, more Soap Magazines and the Police Report Magazine!

[Samuian]

QUOTE (Samuian @ 2009-10-19 12:52:22)

Sorry, coming from Berlin/Germany and well acquainted with the Museums and Art-Scene of Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, London, Copenhagen, Paris, Florence, Milan and Madrid, that I had a rather similiar impression when I arrived at my "posting" in Melbourne/Vic. and that was 1985!

The the situation somewhat rather rapidly started to change... by 1988/9

Sidney was already a "bit different"

Who was Sidney ?

Anyway, to avoid any risk of being undiplomatic I shall just say thank you to the OP for posting this item .

The Brother of Woolongong and Marra Marra...

..... at least some are wide awake... Aussie?

Edited October 20, 2009 by Samuian

[WaiWai]

Sorry, coming from Berlin/Germany and well acquainted with the Museums and Art-Scene of Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, London, Copenhagen, Paris, Florence, Milan and Madrid, that I had a rather similiar impression when I arrived at my "posting" in Melbourne/Vic. and that was 1985!

The the situation somewhat rather rapidly started to change... by 1988/9

Sidney was already a "bit different"

WaiWai: Who was Sidney ?

Anyway, to avoid any risk of being undiplomatic I shall just say thank you to the OP for posting this item .

Samuian: The Brother of Woolongong and Marra Marra...

Ah, I was wondedring if you meant Sir Sidney Nolan .

Like Thailand, Australia has long standing indigenous cultures, as I am sure you know. Not so much found in museums ...

Edited October 20, 2009 by WaiWai

[Huey]

However, the bullshit about history, dance, and architecture...no that's just dead wrong. Because all of these have their roots set in Thai culture hundreds of years prior. Personally I think most of the historical information was made too distant for him to get off his chinless champagne loving ass to find out about. You didn't have all the cool movies about Thai history like "Suryothai" "Khun Pan, Khun Chang", and "King Narisuan" to spark one's interest in their history and liturature. This ment you would have actually had to READ THAI to appreciate the litereture that he so quickly trashed. And I doubt he spoke Thai or made a real effort to find out.

Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post reminding us of the need for intellectual rigour.Clearly what this diplomat needed was to sit through a number of the "cool movies" you mention (which would probably make him the first to do so without expiring from boredom), and thence to re-assess his view on the modest achievements of Thai culture.One small request, could you remind us of the great works of Thai literature that are universally acknowledged to rank with the best the rest of the world has to offer.

I have already asked for that information. Thais are not great readers. Do you see them reading or even having books in their homes.

Yes Cool movies I said it, and it's true. They are great movies about Thai culture and each of them are based off of Thai books, which are in turn based off Thai Stories. Who gives cares if the rest of the world universally accepts or appreciates their stories. The Thais didn't make them for the rest of the world to appreciate, they made them for their own people. They weren't off trying to colonize and exploit the world so they didn't need to make stories so watered down and universal that everyone could get it.

No, their stories are a lil more uniquely Thai and sophisticated. Take Khun Pan, Khun Chang for exsample. It has all the qualities of Romeo and Juilet only much more gritty, erotic, and distinctly Thai. Yet with even a basic understanding of the culture you can appreciate it's beauty.

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

[harrry]

.No, their stories are a lil more uniquely Thai and sophisticated. Take Khun Pan, Khun Chang for exsample. It has all the qualities of Romeo and Juilet only much more gritty, erotic, and distinctly Thai. Yet with even a basic understanding of the culture you can appreciate it's beauty.

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

quote from the website which contains the translation.

Sepha Khun Chang Khun Phaen is a Thai poem of 30,000 lines. The story originated in the folk tradition of traveling troubadours who recited for local audiences and passed on the poem by word-of-mouth. It’s a great story – love, war, comedy, tragedy, heroism, villainy, and knockabout farce. Among the great works of old Thai literature, it is the only one which is original rather than an adaptation from elsewhere (India, Persia, China, Java).

So can you show another example too?

[Matan]

.No, their stories are a lil more uniquely Thai and sophisticated. Take Khun Pan, Khun Chang for exsample. It has all the qualities of Romeo and Juilet only much more gritty, erotic, and distinctly Thai. Yet with even a basic understanding of the culture you can appreciate it's beauty.

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

quote from the website which contains the translation.

Sepha Khun Chang Khun Phaen is a Thai poem of 30,000 lines. The story originated in the folk tradition of traveling troubadours who recited for local audiences and passed on the poem by word-of-mouth. It’s a great story – love, war, comedy, tragedy, heroism, villainy, and knockabout farce. Among the great works of old Thai literature, it is the only one which is original rather than an adaptation from elsewhere (India, Persia, China, Java).

So can you show another example too?

One is enough! Thailand is better than anything!

[Ulysses G.]

Just because you can't relate to it, dosn't mean they don't have quality literature.

Don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. No matter how you spin it, Thai 'literature" is not up to much.