History Taught In Cm Schools

[iainiain101]

There is a discusion currently going on in the main forum about the Pattaya Wax Museum use of posters of Adolf Hitler on adverts.

I do not want to discuss this, but what comes through that thread is some Thais know of him through their education, others dont.

My question is to parents of, say teen aged children in CM, have they been taught about World War 2 at school? If so at which schools?

My kids are still too young, but I would like them to go to a school with a good history education.

Thanks

Iain

[sassienie]

Ah brilliant, another Hitler thread.

I was starting to get bored since they closed the last one.

Before anyone starts the ball rolling, give me a chance to open a can of beer and get settled in.

Edited October 20, 2009 by sassienie

[endure]

My kids are still too young, but I would like them to go to a school with a good history education.

Which version of history would you like them to be taught?

[IanForbes]

All school really does is open children's eyes to the world. The good teachers inspire children to learn more on their own. Very little history we learn in school sticks with us unless we read more. Learning to read and enjoy reading is the one great thing anyone can do for their child. Books are a treasure and it's up to the parents to take an active part in the education of their children. In many fractured schools today the teacher is only there to play referee.

[Shazza]

I totally agree, I had a useless History teacher in NZ when I was 15 - she would sit up the front, read from a book and expect us to take notes and learn.... we sat bored through Hitler's Germany, Mae Tse Tung's China and Richard (King Dick) Seddon's New Zealand... so boring.... later on, however, I read heaps about World War 2 and the horrors therein....

Reading is definitely the key to learning, love of reading, love of learning....

I don't know much about Thai schools, but know that if going to an International school many are American based so you would get a lot of American History and not so much World History... if you're a Kiwi (you'll know what I mean) you won't likely get any New Zealand history, we're too little and unimportant, you'd need to do that yourself!

[Ulysses G.]

I like to read Winston Churchill's insights into Gandhi's character, but no school is going to go into that. Reading widely is the only way to true education.

[caf]

Thais are not taught their own history with unbiased facts, let alone that of any other country.

[rohitsuk]

I like to read Winston Churchill's insights into Gandhi's character, but no school is going to go into that. Reading widely is the only way to true education.

Sadly, Thai people know precious little of their own history, much less anybody else's. I have taught in Thailand on and off over 25 years at various levels but most university. Initially I was stunned when my fellow Thai ajarns at the nation's leading universities would ask me why I knew so much about Thai history, when they freely confessed to knowing little or nothing of it.

Reading, as OPs have already commented, is of course the answer. I "read" history for my first degree in the UK and read it exactly what I did for three years, anything and everything I could get hold of relevant to my subject so naturally before I first came to Thailand I read some Thai history. My Thai colleagues at the various universities also read but I was astounded to see that what many of them read was, cartoons !

Hitler, if known at all by Thai people, is rather in the same category as Dracula being a scary ghost like character, which is probably why the Pattaya museum had put him in the chamber of horrors, where he certainly belongs. It is difficult for many groups not to see this as offensive because of the pervasive effects of the evils for which Hitler was responsible. If it is excusable in Thailand then it would be on the grounds of ignorance in the normative and most literal sense of the word - a genuine lack of knowledge. This does not mean, of course, that it should go unchallenged and uncorrected which, is the light of independently acquired knowledge that reading brings. Remember the Olympic style torch which used to be the UK road sign for an approaching school ? Apposite indeed, but sadly degraded into a political ping-pong ball.

My grandsons attend one of the city's prominent Thai schools and study in the bilingual programme so mostly with foreign teachers. However, they know no more Thai history at M2 & M3 than did my ajarn colleagues, revealed a few weeks ago when I did one of my little instant check tests with them. I am ashamed to say that they did not know the names of the King's mother and father or that Prince Mahidol was a doctor and this at the end of a day when they had watched a video at school about the King's life and work. They know now and they won't be forgetting in a hurry because they read it in a book for themselves.

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[lis41]

I seldom jump into these threads but I find myself compelled to respond. I teach history at an international school here in Chiang Mai.

Firstly, Mr.IanForbes - I agree with your point 100 %. I characterize a student's secondary education as essentially a platter placed before them and it is their job to choose their favorite item - we give them a taste and now it is up to them to better develop their interests, talents, curiosities, etc. . it ultimately becomes their choice as to what to pursue. Hopefully, we've also given them the tools and skills to pursue it.

Secondly, Mr. Shazza, I do recognize my own experiences as a student being very similar to yours: history= boring in high school and I was never engaged by the teacher. But because of my own curiosities, I went off and read about what interested me. Looking back now, I am so thankful that I was a reader because those interests provided me with the basis of what eventually came to be my career. And I have never forgotten those high school experiences and continually strive to break the stigma that history classes carry: boring and covered in dust. Who would want to or could learn in that type of environment?

However I do have to point out that yes, although I do teach in an american curriculum based school, we do not have american history on the menu. I cannot speak for all of the international schools on this issue. We are very aware that our students, regardless of where they are from, are drenched with american culture - there is no need to throw more at them. Our history courses are 'world' courses and students aren't introduced to the modern concept of an america until their 10th grade year - after learning about the french philosophers who the american founding fathers so brilliantly plagiarized from. It is then that america becomes known and they really aren't mentioned again until the industrial revolution and world war I.

Are our textbooks american? yup. are they biased? embarrassingly so. And any teacher worth their salt should be pointing that out and using it as an opportunity to teach their kids that they need to question every source, just because its in a textbook certainly doesn't make it true! (An epiphany for some, i always enjoy discovering)

And thirdly, as for thai history - I tried, once. Overwhelming, discombobulated, and not enough proper, verified sources in English to create a solid (yet fluid) story. I could never find a straight answer!! And my thai students want to know it, they're hungry for it!! If given the time and resources, I would study it to offer it to my kids - i just had a really hard time finding information that corroborated with anything else. I ultimately put my trust in the thai department at our school and went back to what I knew.

And as rohitsuk had mentioned - they do know of Hitler, and you're right - like a ghost character they have a morbid curiosity in but very little base knowledge of the circumstances that created him. but i have found that to be the case of all students of this generation, not just my thai students.

[pjclark1]

Hitler is a fairly boring subject,

He tried to do a bit of 'ethnic cleansing' on the Jewish community and failed miserably.

Time to move on and let the past rest in peace.

Why does nobody ever bother mentioning the successful evil people who actually succeeded in wiping out races.

For example

The Romans destroying the Celt people and the druids.

The Americans wiping out the native tribes of America.

The Australian people wiping out the Aboriginals.

All did a far better job than Hitler!

Edited October 21, 2009 by pjclark1

[straightdave]

Hitler is a fairly boring subject,

He tried to do a bit of 'ethnic cleansing' on the Jewish community and failed miserably.

Time to move on and let the past rest in peace.

Why does nobody ever bother mentioning the successful evil people who actually succeeded in wiping out races.

For example

The Romans destroying the Celt people and the druids.

The Americans wiping out the native tribes of America.

The Australian people wiping out the Aboriginals.

All did a far better job than Hitler!

sadly,no one really cares about either the abbos nor the indians

the others are too long ago

hitler was recent and one can learn many things because when one looks at hitler one must look at everything around it

the unfair treaty of germany had to sign , the left wing movement, the greed of powerful nations...etc,etc

maybe by doing this we can avoid the same sort of mess, he came far too close to pulling off his plans

it would be nice to live in peace- but look around you,it just ain't happening,wish it was

[caf]

I seldom jump into these threads but I find myself compelled to respond. I teach history at an international school here in Chiang Mai.

Firstly, Mr.IanForbes - I agree with your point 100 %. I characterize a student's secondary education as essentially a platter placed before them and it is their job to choose their favorite item - we give them a taste and now it is up to them to better develop their interests, talents, curiosities, etc. . it ultimately becomes their choice as to what to pursue. Hopefully, we've also given them the tools and skills to pursue it.

Secondly, Mr. Shazza, I do recognize my own experiences as a student being very similar to yours: history= boring in high school and I was never engaged by the teacher. But because of my own curiosities, I went off and read about what interested me. Looking back now, I am so thankful that I was a reader because those interests provided me with the basis of what eventually came to be my career. And I have never forgotten those high school experiences and continually strive to break the stigma that history classes carry: boring and covered in dust. Who would want to or could learn in that type of environment?

However I do have to point out that yes, although I do teach in an american curriculum based school, we do not have american history on the menu. I cannot speak for all of the international schools on this issue. We are very aware that our students, regardless of where they are from, are drenched with american culture - there is no need to throw more at them. Our history courses are 'world' courses and students aren't introduced to the modern concept of an america until their 10th grade year - after learning about the french philosophers who the american founding fathers so brilliantly plagiarized from. It is then that america becomes known and they really aren't mentioned again until the industrial revolution and world war I.

Are our textbooks american? yup. are they biased? embarrassingly so. And any teacher worth their salt should be pointing that out and using it as an opportunity to teach their kids that they need to question every source, just because its in a textbook certainly doesn't make it true! (An epiphany for some, i always enjoy discovering)

And thirdly, as for thai history - I tried, once. Overwhelming, discombobulated, and not enough proper, verified sources in English to create a solid (yet fluid) story. I could never find a straight answer!! And my thai students want to know it, they're hungry for it!! If given the time and resources, I would study it to offer it to my kids - i just had a really hard time finding information that corroborated with anything else. I ultimately put my trust in the thai department at our school and went back to what I knew.

And as rohitsuk had mentioned - they do know of Hitler, and you're right - like a ghost character they have a morbid curiosity in but very little base knowledge of the circumstances that created him. but i have found that to be the case of all students of this generation, not just my thai students.

Often difficult for Thais to accept that they should question what is told them. And the available history is not full enough for anyone within Thailand to form a full or unbiased opinion. There is only one accepted view of the Japanese involvement in Thailand in WW2

[eek]

Reply in quoted text

Hitler is a fairly boring subject,

He tried to do a bit of 'ethnic cleansing' on the Jewish community and failed miserably.

Time to move on and let the past rest in peace. - "move on"? "let the past rest in peace"? Isnt remembering, what history is all about? I also find what you said offensive as we should remember the damage caused in war, and those who were lost to it. Its more than trying to do a bit of "ethnic cleansing" as you put it, and even that was HORRIFIC in itself. "Failed miserably"?..sorry but words fail really. However, i am biased, for although many people were affected in WW2, try telling my father and his sister to not remember that the grew up without their father because he served and died in it. Then again, maybe he was one of the lucky ones, he wasnt a Jew and subjected to the treatment they were put through. How you can possibly talk of it in such a blase' way seems beyond me.

Why does nobody ever bother mentioning the successful evil people who actually succeeded in wiping out races. So we should "move on" with regards to WW2, but remember other "successful evil people"? I believe all history is important and should be remembered. Not a 'oh im fed up hearing about that one, give me a new one instead'...

For example

The Romans destroying the Celt people and the druids. - As a Scot, there was me thinking i am a Celt. Thank you for informing me that my race was wiped out. I must have missed that one growing up

The Americans wiping out the native tribes of America. - well i dont know much about native tribes of America. But, i was under the impression that at least some native tribes are still in America. Maybe someone can better inform me (sorry, but at this point i dont quite trust your historical accuracy).

The Australian people wiping out the Aboriginals. - Erm..wiped out the Aboriginals. Has anyone told them yet?

All did a far better job than Hitler! ????????????

[PeaceBlondie]

When I tutored international students here, they studied Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon, Maya, Aztec, Inca, First Nations, etc. Surely they covered ww2. But Thai schools, probably not.

And whilst we should never forget the holocausts of USA, Australia, Germany, Serbia, China, Cambodia, Rwanda, etc., there's more to history than wars and holocausts. Gandhi changed how we change the world: by loving our enemies, which Christendom forgot 1,600 years ago.

[Ulysses G.]

Hitler is a fairly boring subject,

He tried to do a bit of 'ethnic cleansing' on the Jewish community and failed miserably.

Hitler killed other white people with a very similar culture to his own - many who were fellow Germans. That is the reason that he is considered to be so much worse than other mass murderers.

[Donnyboy]

if you could get a history lesson somehow bundled into a thai tv soap, you might get more interest

[slapout]

Probably the publication of, film clips of the after effect, first hand access to the atrocities by 3re parties, at that time, whereas Russia and many of the Japanese atrocities were to surface later, had something to do with the worlds perception. Not disputing you UG, but Russia and even the French and Italians (under German influence) to a somewhat minor degree fit your profile. Japan seemed to be in a league of their own when compared to the other partners in crime. I just hope that the world can be reminded periodically of the atrocities which took place on such a scale during this period and will put safeguards in to prevent a sequel.

[Xangsamhua]

if you could get a history lesson somehow bundled into a thai tv soap, you might get more interest

Indeed, that would work everywhere (the soapie method, that is, not just in Thai)

Hitler and the Nazi regime was horrific, not only for the sheer number of deaths they caused and in such horrible ways, but because they did it systematically, according to a well thought out plan, using technology and the skills of doctors, scientists, medical technicians and administrators, quite apart from generals and soldiers. The Nazis applied all the formidable resources and intelligence of their countrymen to the vilest of ends - to stamp out an entire race and culture because they were alien and because Hitler and some others thought (1) they had stabbed Germany in the back in the First World War and (2) they were the main force behind Bolshevism. Thai people may relate better to the Hitler-Nazi phenomenon if they were taught it as a horrendous example of the results of "wrong view" - in this case, nationalism, chauvinism and paranoia. "Wrong view" is a key delusion pointed out by Buddhist psychology, something to be avoided by non-attachment, awareness of impermanence, and compassion.

I loved History as a schoolboy, fuelled by the opportunity to live in the UK and Germany for a couple of years in the early-mid 50s, surrounded by historical artifacts and landmarks. However, it wasn't until Grade 7, when an inspired History teacher revealed quite explicitly the biases in our textbook that I realised that the past is not an uncontested area. How important a good and courageous teacher is.

Unfortunately, in Thailand, academic freedom has not yet reached History departments, so much of what Thai history is available to read is suspect therefore. I read Manich Jumsai's "histories" in the early 70s and haven't read any Thai historians since. I'm not interested in glorifications of Thai military exploits and hagiographies of past monarchs, but I'm afraid that that's what Thai students get in whatever Thai history they're exposed to at school. Tell me I'm wrong. I hope I am. If not, I hope things change.

[IanForbes]

Interesting topic and many different turns and twists.

I believe that caf nailed it when he wrote... "Often difficult for Thais to accept that they should question what is told them. And the available history is not full enough for anyone within Thailand to form a full or unbiased opinion. There is only one accepted view of the Japanese involvement in Thailand in WW2"

From what I've learned of Thais and Thai teaching, the students have been programmed to never question what the professor tells them. That would mean that students wouldn't take an active part in any discussion and would soon grow bored. Just sitting there and trying to memorize what someone is saying will put you to sleep. Correct me if I am wrong in this supposition, but I've been told it by more than one farang teacher working in Thailand.

I think Donnyboy had a pretty good idea when he suggested a Thai soap television program devoted to Thai history. Of ALL the academic subjects in school I believe history should be the one that should be MOST interesting. It can be made exciting and fun because it is real life.

And, that is precisely why I totally disagree with pjclark's idea that history is boring.

I still believe that the greatest thing we can do for children is instill a willingness to learn. Some teachers can inspire learning and others seem to quell it. My daughter, who is a teacher, is currently dealing with a fellow teacher who is like the nurse Cratchet in the movie "One flew over the cuckoo's nest."

[caf]

When I tutored international students here, they studied Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon, Maya, Aztec, Inca, First Nations, etc. Surely they covered ww2. But Thai schools, probably not.

And whilst we should never forget the holocausts of USA, Australia, Germany, Serbia, China, Cambodia, Rwanda, etc., there's more to history than wars and holocausts. Gandhi changed how we change the world: by loving our enemies, which Christendom forgot 1,600 years ago.

I am sure they did cover WW2; but HOW was it covered? That was my point.

And talking about the crusades is a bit selective, isn't it?

[rohitsuk]

Reply in quoted text

Hitler is a fairly boring subject,

He tried to do a bit of 'ethnic cleansing' on the Jewish community and failed miserably.

Time to move on and let the past rest in peace. - "move on"? "let the past rest in peace"? Isnt remembering, what history is all about? I also find what you said offensive as we should remember the damage caused in war, and those who were lost to it. Its more than trying to do a bit of "ethnic cleansing" as you put it, and even that was HORRIFIC in itself. "Failed miserably"?..sorry but words fail really. However, i am biased, for although many people were affected in WW2, try telling my father and his sister to not remember that the grew up without their father because he served and died in it. Then again, maybe he was one of the lucky ones, he wasnt a Jew and subjected to the treatment they were put through. How you can possibly talk of it in such a blase' way seems beyond me.

Why does nobody ever bother mentioning the successful evil people who actually succeeded in wiping out races. So we should "move on" with regards to WW2, but remember other "successful evil people"? I believe all history is important and should be remembered. Not a 'oh im fed up hearing about that one, give me a new one instead'...

For example

The Romans destroying the Celt people and the druids. - As a Scot, there was me thinking i am a Celt. Thank you for informing me that my race was wiped out. I must have missed that one growing up

The Americans wiping out the native tribes of America. - well i dont know much about native tribes of America. But, i was under the impression that at least some native tribes are still in America. Maybe someone can better inform me (sorry, but at this point i dont quite trust your historical accuracy).

The Australian people wiping out the Aboriginals. - Erm..wiped out the Aboriginals. Has anyone told them yet?

All did a far better job than Hitler! ????????????

Probably best, dear friends, to assume that in no matter how deplorably bad taste, OP "eek" is seeking to be un agent provocateur and  is not entirely serious and certainly not factual in his comments.  The alternative would involve believing that it is possible for someone to truly be as utterly crass and inane as he seems to want to portray himself.  However, should that be the case then it would be best to treat it with the contempt it so richly deserves, not rise to the bait and totally ignore it.

[pjclark1]

And, that is precisely why I totally disagree with pjclark's idea that history is boring.

I don't believe I said history was boring. Have another read.

Hitler is currently being used by a nation to excuse their own 'ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Yes, Israel is busy trying to kill off another race at this moment.

Forced sterilisation of Native Americans was still being carried out in the USA during the late 1960s by the American Eugenics Society (an organisation that Hitler gleaned many of his ideas from). Many tribes were wiped out.

Shooting 'Abbos' was still popular in 1950s Australia

I'm always amazed that so many people know so little about what is happening around them.

[eek]

Probably best, dear friends, to assume that in no matter how deplorably bad taste, OP "eek" is seeking to be un agent provocateur and  is not entirely serious and certainly not factual in his comments.  The alternative would involve believing that it is possible for someone to truly be as utterly crass and inane as he seems to want to portray himself.  However, should that be the case then it would be best to treat it with the contempt it so richly deserves, not rise to the bait and totally ignore it.

Im sorry rohitsuk, im not quite clear what you mean. You think i was being crass or the OP or the person i was replying to?

[PeaceBlondie]

eek, I think rohitsuk's post was garbled nonsense or a direct attack. Best ignored.

[Xangsamhua]

eek, I think rohitsuk's post was garbled nonsense or a direct attack. Best ignored.

I think Rohitsuk's rather confused. His earlier post misread Ian Forbes as the OP, but then was quite coherent and informative.

Come back, Rohitsuk, and explain where you're coming from. Your dismissal of Eek's comments is way off beam. Clarification and apology is in order.

[Ulysses G.]

And, that is precisely why I totally disagree with pjclark's idea that history is boring.

Hitler is currently being used by a nation to excuse their own 'ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Yes, Israel is busy trying to kill off another race at this moment.

Utter stupidity.

If Israel wanted to "kill off" anyone, they could have done it long ago during the first war with no repercussions and they have won many wars since then.

The Palestinians have had a million chances to sign a peace deal for their own country, but they are their own worst enemy. They rather fight and die than make peace and they are getting exactly what they have asked for.

[pjclark1]

And, that is precisely why I totally disagree with pjclark's idea that history is boring.

Hitler is currently being used by a nation to excuse their own 'ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Yes, Israel is busy trying to kill off another race at this moment.

Utter stupidity.

If Israel wanted to "kill off" anyone, they could have done it long ago during the first war with no repercussions and they have won many wars since then.

The Palestinians have had a million chances to sign a peace deal for their own country, but they are their own worst enemy. They rather fight and die than make peace and they are getting exactly what they have asked for.

I have been to Israel and seen the Palestinian relocation camps with my own eyes, they pretty much match anything that Germany managed to do in the past. Sign a peace deal with people who invaded and occupied your country then killed and imprisoned your friends and relatives, I would certainly find that hard to do.

Another point I find hard to swallow about Hitler, is that it was always Hitler that did the damage and never the German people. No Germans appeat to have ever had relatives in the SS or the Hitler youth (apart from the pope). Hitler must have rushed around Germany like a mad thing. Still, always easier to blame one person for all the wrongs done, rather than a government or entire nation. Most of the plebs are such sheep they will swallow any old propaganda without engaging their own brains even for a minute.

[eek]

Another point I find hard to swallow about Hitler, is that it was always Hitler that did the damage and never the German people. No Germans appeat to have ever had relatives in the SS or the Hitler youth (apart from the pope). Hitler must have rushed around Germany like a mad thing. Still, always easier to blame one person for all the wrongs done, rather than a government or entire nation. Most of the plebs are such sheep they will swallow any old propaganda without engaging their own brains even for a minute.

Actually, pjclark1, thats the part that i think SHOULD be left in the past. Why should anyone need to say if they had relatives in the SS? They are not responsible for the crimes of their forefathers. Plus, I was under the impression that Hitler was very clever, and that many Germans had no idea of the brutality of it all, at least not initially? Any person who was directly involved in the cruelty, it is/was their crime. Not their childrens, or grandchildrens, or any other family members crime. When i meet someone who is German, there are no associations of WW2 flashing into my mind. They are just someone who is from Germany.

War is messy. There are no real winners. The only hopeful outcome is peace.

Sorry OP, seems im going off topic on your thread again. It would be great, not only for kids in Thailand, if there were some more great tv made (which can then be followed up by reading). Unless a teacher is really dynamic, its hard for kids to be engaged in history, because it seems so removed. When i was at school we had an excellent BBC documentary series called "How we used to live". It gave a lot of insight into everyday life in the UK. How people dressed, spoke, what was happening around them and how it felt. It did more for me than dates and statistics etc, because there was a connection with the characters. If there were more educational series like that, it would be helpful i think (as in the Thai soap idea too).

Books of course are excellent, but for those of us who like to read. The trouble can often be getting kids into reading in the first place. Introducing a topic in a series/soap then continuing it via book could be one way.

[WaiWai]

Another point I find hard to swallow about Hitler, is that it was always Hitler that did the damage and never the German people.

I must agree with this point.

The same applies to the treatment of indigenous Australians, N. Americans and others.

I understand that times were different and that demagogues can manipulate the human tendency to "group think", but responsibility remains with us all.

[Ulysses G.]

I have been to Israel and seen the Palestinian relocation camps with my own eyes, they pretty much match anything that Germany managed to do in the past.

What a crock.

The Nazi's purposely starved, tortured, slaughtered, and gassed Jews in the concentration camps to death on an industrial basis. There is nothing like that in the Palestinian compounds or they would all be long gone.

They live in shitty places and they get killed by attacking soldiers and sending suicide bombers and rockets to kill civilians until Israel has had enough of it.

It is sad, but that is what happens when you lose wars and refuse to accept it.

You are right about one thing. It was not Hitler that killed all those pacifist Jews. It was his willing executioners, the German people and there are a lot of people who would love to do it again who are still out there and they are not all German.

That is why Israel has to act as strongly as it does and no one who has been in their shoes could ever blame them.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Ulysses G.