China Keen On Eu-style Bloc

[Publicus]

Before proceding any further, the EU isn't any better than the People's Republic of China????????????????

We need to get past that one first and foremost, if possible.......

However, back closer to home and the topic of the thread, if the masters of the EU are so devious and diabolical, what might the PRC do to 'integrate' a so diverse and dissolute (!) East Asia into a union?

[whichschool]

Before proceding any further, the EU isn't any better than the People's Republic of China????????????????

We need to get past that one first and foremost, if possible.......

However, back closer to home and the topic of the thread, if the masters of the EU are so devious and diabolical, what might the PRC do to 'integrate' a so diverse and dissolute (!) East Asia into a union?

Seems you agree with what i wrote about referendums as you werent able to respond to my point of view.

You must be aware of Germans recent past, all of East and many parts of cental Europes, Franco in Spain, Portugals recent communist past, the Italians and the dictator that was Mussolini and nation only recently governed by a former communist. Then we have NuLabour who have no real interest in what the poeple say or think and have created the worlds most expensive big brother state, and a nation where one goes begging to the nanny state in times of need instead of the family.

Here is an interesting read from someone who knows what they are talking about, please read it.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865

The problem they will have creating an Asian Superstate is the peoples are culturally far more diverse then Europeans, but i'm sure they can market this to the peoples or Asia whether they like it or not.

Me im for small less intrusive govt. and low taxation as govts. cant be trusted no matter where in the planet theyre from, i believe in the eyes of others this makes me an evil right winger!

Edited October 31, 2009 by whichschool

[Publicus]

Without passing judgement, discussing per se the particulars and specifics of the processes and contents of the very recently concluded EU Lisbon Treaty (with someone who has an axe to grind) requires a hashing that is esoterically beyond the scope of this thread topic.

There is an advantage to the welfare state in that everyone in it contributes to the well being of its citizens, which relieves the family of the sole burden of assisting and providing for its own in times of great need. The disadvantage of the cradle to grave state is......well, I hardly need to point out anything of it to you and to others who share your views about rugged individualism.

The nations of East Asia cannot 'market' a common community to its radically diverse nation states, elites and peoples, exactly because of the immense variations of culture, language, customs, traditions, egos, ethnocentrism, history both recent and of the deeper past - all of which have bedeviled Europe in the past but which, unlike East Asian countries, Europe has successfully begun to overcome in significant and substantial if yet to be improved ways.

We remember the EU derived from the Common Market which was organized as the direct response to the Great European War (1914-18) and the Son of the Great European War, World War II. Altho East Asia was a theater of the latter war, East Asia hasn't any such compulsion to drive its unification either in economics and trade or in governance. East Asia would simply try to immitate the Europeans, which hardly equals or approaches the reasons that led to the EU, mild and milque toast as the EU is to date.

A final thought and reality in this particular post is that no one should trust the government, but that government can be a positive force in society so long as it is limited by checks and balances and the separation of powers, which is not a central or core feature of parliamentary systems. Accordingly, your extreme distrust of government is explainable, but to say the EU is no better than the People's Republic of China is just a tad OTT.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo

[animatic]

Interesting to think that Spanish and French and Germans and Italians are thought to be LESS diverse,

than Burmese, and Thais and Cambodians and Malaysians, Indonesians, Chinese and on and on.

Having been able to compare BOTH macro-sets of cultures anthropologically, as an outsider,

this point of view really doesn't hold much Perrier. Both groupings are filled with extraordinary diversity.

The main difference I see is that the political classes are more reigned in from their natural tendencies

towards rapaciousness. Egos run amok, are less likely to be given the field, and thus

a somewhat more mature viewpoint towards integration vs entrenched nationalism,

and an under-informed public sense of loss rather than gain via integration.

Here post-nation building and it's sediment of residual uber-nationalism,

makes it quiet problematic to envision a real integrated ASEAN bloc as 'region state',

unless China makes it VERY enticing financially to do it and keep quiet.

it's really up to the big dog to fish the puzzle into a coherent picture.

Edited November 1, 2009 by animatic

[Bagwan]

The future is not only with the BRIC* countries but also with other countries like Indonesia, Philippines, Argentina, Mexico, Turkey, some African Countries etc. and nobody, including the EU and/or US, is going to stop their train, and hat includes the creation of a EU style pact of Asian countries, one way or another.

An interesting thought. Precisely how are they going to achieve this? The only scenario that I can envisage is of the same kidney as portrayed in the movie 'The Mouse That Roared', but then I'm a 'prole' and peasant at heart.

[wolf5370]

considering china's history in terms of human relations and trade embargo et cetera.... imho it will be decades before anything will materialize.... if at all

for all the s.e.a. countries to agree on one currency, be it a new currency or consortium of current bills.... is virtually humanly impossible....

unless of course, if every s.e.a. country agrees on using juans.... lol

well, perhaps i know too much, or perhaps on the other hands--not enough, of the oriental cultures to believe that all s.e.a. countries can present a unified front, even if for only one issue--such as one single currency for s.e.a....

i could almost see taiwan and hongkong going at it already, even before the conference begins.... lol

now throw in the emerging india, japan, NORTH KOREA, south korea.... etc

guess 'who is coming to dinner'..... lol

Yes because of course the EU has completely agreed on a single currency - except for all the member states that, erm, haven't. Of course it will not happen overnight - the EU didn't either. It took many steps from the EEC onwards. The EU is far from a perfect unioin and even further from a well run or administered conglomeration. In its very short life it is already heavily criticized, often for being undemocratic and inconsistent/biased, and especially for its overly bureaucratic and secretive nature.

The more interesting thing in my view is how will PRC 'deal' with Taiwan - as a partner, or insist that it be taken as part of China itself. If done right, this could well be the best thing to tame the dragon - as trade becomes more important and big business starts to move more wheels than old men in collarless tunics, maybe things will improve politically - isolation is what creates (and maintains) communist states, they have a tenancy to fall apart as trade and communication becomes more and more part of the system.

I hope it does happen - one day. The world will sit more comfortably with many 'legs' to balance out the weight as it were. One superpower and one super-economy doesn't seemed to have cured the world of either wars or boom/bust episodes.

[Publicus]

Yes, the People's Republic of China is opened and opened in unprecedented ways. The West is anxious to do business with a developing PRC and is well engaged already, what with Tesco, Carrefour, Walmart, Seimen's, GM, McDonald's, 7-Eleven, shelf-clearing sales of "Prison Break" DVD's no sooner than they arrive at stores, Nike and Adidas school backbags, Nokia cell phones, IBM computers etc etc, unfortunately to include the invariably murdered American Fried Rice not to mention the ubiquitous "American Breakfast" .

KFC in particular captures the entrepreneural imagination as its stores have the story of Col Sanders and his finger lickin' good Kentucky Fried Chicken on the walls of each outlet, dating back to the original family shoppe at the turn of the 20th century. PRChinese know what a 'fried' and a 'chicken' are but continually ask me what a Kentucky is so I'm pleased to tell 'em.

The Chinese already are in deeper than they imagine, never mind think, and are only getting in much deeper than they know or realize.

The crunch will come just don't ask me when.

However, the serious snag is that the crunch won't be pretty when it does bump and grind. The Communist Party of China is far too invested in making Taiwan a part of it in order to close out the civil war and that period of history, and to squash anything that places the two words "Chinese" and "democracy" next to each other. The population of PRChinese sheeple are thoroughly and profoundly indoctrinated that Taiwan is a part of the PRC and shall in fact be liberated (from itself) to be incorporated into the PRC. PRC sheeple can get immediately violent on this topic and matter.

The CPC never will allow democracy in the PRC as the CPC knows democracy in the PRC would means the dissolution of the Chinese empire (Tibet, XinJiang Ughers etc etc). The CPC will kill half the country's population to prevent anyone taking control of the government or the country/empire from it. Tienanman Square (Beijing itself really) in 1989 was a sandbox suggestion to the population of what it means to challenge the ownership of the PRC held by the CPC. The CPC will kill a billion Chinese if that's what is required to retain absolute power and rule.

So this engagement business is a very sharp double edged sword.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Posters who like to speak of the People's Republic of China as the new "Big Dog" in the neighborhood certainly haven't said much, if anything, about the PRC's aggressive and entirely negative impact and record concerning democracy, human rights, liberty, individual freedom, social justice, the right of protest, petition and dissent etc.

It instead seems to be an embarrassment to such folk who speak of the PRC as the new Big Dog to mention these and other inconvenient matters pertaining to the Communist Party of China, the People's Republic of China and its policies of censorship in daily life across the board in all matters, the prohibition of any discussion of religion, politics or government that the PRC imposes on its people, the indoctrination of its people to the Party line in all matters.