Were You A Dishy Young Man (when Under 25)?

[Jingthing]

I posted an answer with a pic when I was 16 with my friend and it was removed saying that I was insinuating...

OK, if I can't even adore myself when I was young innocent lad then this will be the last post ever.

Have a gay day! Nothing dishy here I see!

Sorry for your hurt feelings but I saw your photo and I felt it opened a can of Sunnee Plaza type worms. Really, we can do without those kinds of misunderstandings.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Jingthing

[onni4me]

Sorry for your hurt feelings but I saw your photo and I felt it opened a can of Sunnee Plaza type worms. Really, we can do without those kinds of misunderstandings.

That just goes to show what kind of mentality people here have...

I have decided to skip this forum for now and concentrate on real life instead.

[Jingthing]

Sorry for your hurt feelings but I saw your photo and I felt it opened a can of Sunnee Plaza type worms. Really, we can do without those kinds of misunderstandings.

That just goes to show what kind of mentality people here have...

I have decided to skip this forum for now and concentrate on real life instead.

Well, good bye and good luck then..

Edited October 26, 2009 by Jingthing

[wpcoe]

Hmmm. I was going to suggest we open the thread to posts with pics of ourselves as young (but legal age) adults and let others comment on our dishiness, but based on what just happened, above, maybe not?

[Ijustwannateach]

Onni4me, the people HERE I trust. It's the people who would use any possible leverage against us as gay people or as a forum I worry about. Sorry if this is hard to understand, but we can't be responsible for the types of misunderstandings that might ensue (among ANYONE, ANYWHERE) if a questionable picture is posted here in a prurient context, even if that person can be proven to be you. If we can keep the photos to age 18+ (and following the other guidelines above), then no problems. Sorry if this seems to be a killjoy, but better safe than sorry.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, since you *do* want to discuss this after all, I would ask: where did you get your idea for what 'dishy' means? Why can't a 40yo be 'dishy,' 'yummy,' or what have you? Is the delusion that a wide variety of attractiveness exists, or that only a very few individuals defined by movies, advertising, etc., are actually attractive? Perhaps the first of these ideas (that there is a wide variety of attractiveness) threatens the image you have of yourself as having been 'special' for a short time as a young man? Has holding on to that perception (and its subsequent loss) really been of benefit to you (this are questions you raised yourself in reverse, so I think they're fair!)?

-- I got the idea of the use of the word dishy from personal experience in America. It is not used to describe older guys. It is use to describe especially toothsome young men, at least in common usage. You are free to use it to describe anyone you like but I think it is more useful to use words in the way they are usually understood. For example, the ladies seem to like George Klooney for some reason, an attractive older man (though not my type), they call him a handsome man.

-- Of course a 40 year old can be an attractive 40 year old, no doubt, who looks 40. There are some freakish exceptions where an attractive 40 year old really looks like an attractive 25 year old. The guy who actually looks 40 is not dishy, the rare exception that looks much younger than his years can be dishy. Again, dishy is inclusive of different kinds of attractiveness, but in my opinion it really is a word to describe young men.

-- I reject your media brainwashing idea, I just do. I know what I like, and most of you do too.

-- It is my opinion that the majority of gay men (NOT ALL!) find younger men more attractive than old men, even when they themselves have grown older. The same is true for straight men being more attracted to younger women. No amount of PC platitudes will change this perhaps base reality. I think you could probably find many academic studies to back up my assertion (but I am too lazy to do that so I will call it only an opinion).

-- Another non-PC opinion: I feel for mainstream gay men the ages of 18 to 25 (or 30) are the golden years of desirability, when if we are in the least bit attractive, most gay men want us. Base, but real, why be afraid of reality? This is different than the hetero universe, where most women don't want anything to do with young guys like that. Straight men peak later in their desirability to women, again, my non-PC opinion. Try being a dumpy 50 year old walking into a West Hollywood gay bar, it isn't pretty, it isn't nice, but it is real.

-- Yes my attractive period was definitely a benefit to me. Attractive people attract more success in free societies. They are more likely to get the job, more likely to make a lucrative networking connection that can change their life, usually for the better. Again, these are base realities, not very nice, but still very, very real.

Fair enough- you're probably right about the term (I'm not big on the jargon). I think we have bought into very different views of the world. I don't deny the power of the programming that has given most of us our notions of what 'cute' means, or that it constitutes a big influence on ourselves and others in the context of our society. I just don't think we have to let ourselves or our real appreciation of people be defined (and limited) by it.

I'm constantly puzzled, for example, by what Thais consider attractive- you can find out by watching their media, their TV shows, their ads. Sure, a lot of the guys are fairly cute or handsome- but really, not what I would consider to be the most attractive of the Thai population. Then you get these perfectly 'dishy' guys (IMHO) putting themselves down because of the oddest kinds of things related to their appearance, simply because it's what the MEDIA here tells them is wrong with them.

The same thing is true in respect to U.S. media, I think, but it's much harder for those of us who grew up there to see that because we have immersed ourselves in it- just like the Thais are immersed in their own media visions of themselves.

Then you have all the kinds of guys who like different types of people than the media wants them to- and who are almost ashamed of this because they are not 'supposed' to like those things.

I think my reality is pointed to more by the complexity of the issue across cultures and peoples. Our mileage may vary....

[peridot]

Well, since you *do* want to discuss this after all, I would ask: where did you get your idea for what 'dishy' means? Why can't a 40yo be 'dishy,' 'yummy,' or what have you? Is the delusion that a wide variety of attractiveness exists, or that only a very few individuals defined by movies, advertising, etc., are actually attractive?

-- I got the idea of the use of the word dishy from personal experience in America. It is not used to describe older guys. It is use to describe especially toothsome young men, at least in common usage. You are free to use it to describe anyone you like but I think it is more useful to use words in the way they are usually understood. For example, the ladies seem to like George Klooney for some reason, an attractive older man (though not my type), they call him a handsome man.

Princeton defines "dishy" as "sexually attractive". It can apply to anyone you find sexually attractive, young or old, man or woman. I remember my father using the word frequently when I was a child, always about women in tight skirts, usually blonde. It was used frequently in movies from the 30s and 40s to describe women that men wanted to consume, like a dish of food. Just because one person learned it in a young gay context does not mean that is the only common usage. If you hung out with straight men or women you might hear a different common usage.

[Jingthing]

Right. I am talking about the usage when describing MALES as this thread being in the gay forum is clearly about male to male sexuality. The usage is different than when describing females. Again, back to my non-PC assertions, in the gay world, it is mostly the attractive young men that are considered the good enough to eat beauties, not the 40 plus set.

If you don't believe, see how fast you go broke opening a go go bar in Thailand featuring old man ex-baht bus drivers (even really handsome ones if such exist) ... Uh oh, have I gone too far?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[peridot]

I'm constantly puzzled, for example, by what Thais consider attractive- you can find out by watching their media, their TV shows, their ads. Sure, a lot of the guys are fairly cute or handsome- but really, not what I would consider to be the most attractive of the Thai population. Then you get these perfectly 'dishy' guys (IMHO) putting themselves down because of the oddest kinds of things related to their appearance, simply because it's what the MEDIA here tells them is wrong with them.

I agree very much with this statement, and am constantly puzzled by Thai men who tell me they are ugly because they have dark skin or are over 30 or have a big smile (!!!!). I often think they could be models in the USA, and certainly would be very popular in the gay scene. In Thailand we are presented on TV with stars who are all very pale, often mixed race Thai-Chinese or Thai-farang, tall and rich. Anyone with color in their skin plays either a comedian, a servant or at least a subservient role. Compare the people on the street with the people on TV. Not much variety on TV, and not much color.

I wonder sometimes if the Chinese pale skinned ideal of beauty is completely manufactured by the media, or if it has a basis in aesthetics. My more paranoid side imagines the rich Thai-Chinese want everyone else to feel less than them, and so promote ideals that most Thai people cannot possibly live up to. I don't personally agree with the idea that "Chinese looking" is better than other types, but I hear Thai people say it frequently.

[Jingthing]

I agree there are cultural differences in perception of beauty, but it is only part of the equation. I still don't believe most people are "brainwashed" by the media into thinking what they think is attractive. Otherwise, would there be any gay people, we would all be "brainwashed" to like women to fit in, yes? Bottom line, for men, any men, what floats your boat, that doesn't lie ...

Edited October 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

JT, on reflection, I think the term is more general than you want it to mean, but I suppose it's possible you have lived among persons who used it only in the way you do- either way, arguing over it is kind of futile because if we refer to the dictionary you're simply going to say it's insufficient to explain the gay argot you learned.

To comment on your economic example: I'm pretty sure that the commodification of sexuality implied by go-go bars and prostitution goes hand-in-hand with low self-esteem (among both patrons and providers); surely that would have nothing to do with a stunted capacity for intimacy that focussed on young, undeveloped lives and whose perception of value was tied up solely in a fleeting and, according to your estimation of the self-selected youth on one website, inadequately attractive physical appearance? In that respect, yes, your baht-bus driver bar would fail economically among those who would represent its clients, as far as I am able to imagine their demographics and motivations. On the other hand, there are huge numbers of people having sex in Thailand every day who do not treat it as a commodity or something to be paid for, who possibly accept a degree of reality, expect a bit of maturity, and enjoy some variety in terms of the types of people they are with- not to say they would all appreciate your baht-bus drivers as free and willing partners, but surely SOME would.

In other words, the types of people willing to be gogo bar patrons are not, IMHO, an ideal group for representing or testing a mature model of gay interpersonal attraction... or for extending this theory of yours (which you apparently are doing) to say that not only are the 'dishy' youth special in their own age, but also somehow superior to good-looking guys of every other age.

I know that my opinion would be a minority one among gogo bar patrons- but I'm kind of ok with that.

[Jingthing]

To repeat, the title of the poll was

Were You A Dishy Young Man (when Under 25)?

That does not exclude later in life dishy. It was just a poll about how many of us were stunners as young men. OK? Next ...

That said, if you don't believe that attractive gay young man are the top of the heap in the gay sexual marketplace (and competing for non-commercial relationships is of course included in that), I think you aren't paying attention or just don't want to face real life as it is. Here, or anywhere. Also consider that males in general peak sexually at about age 18 (and decline by age 30), much older for women.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/4...crease-with-age

I will agree with you on one thing (expanding perhaps on your message about the destructiveness of chasing youth and beauty). If you get used to only relating to beauties, it can be very addictive, and quite difficult to ever get excited again about old Barney or whatever the old coot's name is.

BTW, why didn't you vote: This is so looksist! I protest! in the poll?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Fair enough, but you did seem to want to discuss some of the other points I raised, too!

As a last thought from me here: is it possible that people focussing so much on what makes a 'stunner' somehow superior in that age range- which is really a trend I detect in this thread- ruins their ability to appreciate most of the sexually mature human race (i.e., adults older than 25)? Are physical looks really separable from psychological attraction (in other words, is it ONLY the youthful looks, or ALSO the immature minds and narcissistic qualities of the 'stunners' that such people are drawn to)?

I once knew a Korean-American girl- a very vain and vapid one- who, around the time I was 29 (she was 22 at the time) told me in all seriousness that she was focussing on having as much fun as possible because, as everyone knew, social life ends at 30. Admittedly, that's an extreme example- but could that be a self-fulfilling prophecy for some?

Anyway, I've already answered the poll question in the thread- any other formerly dishy guys around? Or how about any *presently* dishy guys?

[Jingthing]

Are physical looks really separable from psychological attraction (in other words, is it ONLY the youthful looks, or ALSO the immature minds and narcissistic qualities of the 'stunners' that such people are drawn to)?

I think that would be a case by case basis, both for the admirer and the object of desire. In this case I feel it is you who may wish to simplify the complexity of our attractions. I strongly feel the very notion of this idea (which I think is objectively provable) , that attractive young men are indeed the most popular people of desire at least among western gay men, and not only those who come to Thailand, offends you at your very core. Perhaps I am wrong. In any case, you have every right to be offended. In my view, it is an inconvenient truth to those who want the world to see homosexuals as exactly the same as heterosexuals.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

What I'm trying to suggest is that attraction is *primarily* a psychological phenomenon. *Primarily*. You have seated the source of the 'attractiveness' in the object. The object is outside you, but the attraction is inside you. Since you have surrounded yourself with like-minded types- and the culture and mass media have generated more of them- you all agree together that 'young persons are attractive.' [although not many of them, according to you!] I am suggesting you turn that around and start saying to yourself, 'I am attracted to young persons [of such-and-such a type, physically and psychologically].' In the second case, you are taking responsibility for your feelings, and attributing the attraction to its true source, not an inherent quality of the object.

I'm offended by certain aspects of mass media and its exclusionary nature, and as that extends to the way people get programmed to live their lives, I find it very discouraging (as I feel it creates many victims of various types). People being attracted to each other is not inherently offensive (within legal limits [added for our homophobe audience]), whether young or old.

[submaniac]

You boys have such a GREAT topic! I loved reading this thread. And if I may add my $0.02 I think whether or not you were 'dishy' when you were younger is not necessarily a 'gay' topic, so forgive me but I wanted to add my hetero opinion to this discussion. I pieced together pictures of me from my old ID cards that I had and put the compilation on my facebook (so no, I did not create it just for this thread) from age 15 to 22.

I remember when I was growing up, I always thought I was an ugly kid. Could be the typical adolescent self image problems, or that I was growing up Thai in the midwest United States with alot of "Nordic" type people (German, Scandanavians) about. Anyways, always thought I was ugly. And now, looking back on those pictures at age 35 I realize, I really wasn't so bad. However, I can see the gradual 'uglification' as the pictures progress to where I am now (the picture in my avatar). I think back, and go, you know I probably wasn't really that bad. And now, theses days, I think I look good for my age. Like most of my friends are bald, and wrinkly, whereas my darker Thai skin has protected me from becoming too wrinkly. And lets not forget my full luxurious head of hair.

So guys, what are your opinions? Was I "dishy" back then, or more of a wonk.

I also wanted to add another thought that what may be dishy for a gay man, may not be dishy for a heterosexual woman. I remember my lesbian friends choice in the types of girls she like, and I just didn't get it. But anyways. Fascinating topic boys.

[Jingthing]

So guys, what are your opinions? Was I "dishy" back then, or more of a wonk.

I also wanted to add another thought that what may be dishy for a gay man, may not be dishy for a heterosexual woman. I remember my lesbian friends choice in the types of girls she like, and I just didn't get it. But anyways. Fascinating topic boys.

Welcome heterosexual!

OK, well I won't comment on any pre-18 year images as per legal specifications. So the 18 year old photo, I would call Dishy enough for government work. At 22, not dishy. (Actually, you look scary in the 22 year old photo, your current age picture is nicer.) This is rather typical. Thanks for playing. Opinions will vary. Yes, I agree in rough generalities the tastes of hetero women and gay men are different.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

What I'm trying to suggest is that attraction is *primarily* a psychological phenomenon. *Primarily*. You have seated the source of the 'attractiveness' in the object. The object is outside you, but the attraction is inside you. Since you have surrounded yourself with like-minded types- and the culture and mass media have generated more of them- you all agree together that 'young persons are attractive.' [although not many of them, according to you!] I am suggesting you turn that around and start saying to yourself, 'I am attracted to young persons [of such-and-such a type, physically and psychologically].' In the second case, you are taking responsibility for your feelings, and attributing the attraction to its true source, not an inherent quality of the object.

I'm offended by certain aspects of mass media and its exclusionary nature, and as that extends to the way people get programmed to live their lives, I find it very discouraging (as I feel it creates many victims of various types). People being attracted to each other is not inherently offensive (within legal limits [added for our homophobe audience]), whether young or old.

I think you are confusing the intent of the poll, which by necessity needs to be more generalized, with my own personal feelings, which you seem to have made some bizarre assumptions about (which in my view tells us a lot more about you than me). If it makes you feel any better, OK: I am attracted to different kinds of people, I know them when I see them, and these are my own feelings. To spell this out some more, nowhere did I ever say nor is it true that I personally am only attracted to dishy young men, in fact, I find many such men unappealing (too perfect, I can't relate). I have not been brainwashed, the d--k don't lie, mate.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Jingthing

[yumidesign]

when i look at photos of me say ten or so years ago, i see this dishy number that at the time i did not think that i was dishy at all, so i guess in 10 years time, when i will be somewhere between 60 and death i will look back at now and think mmmm dishy..... wonder why i did not appreciate it at the time, so yes to answer the original question i was a spunk at 20 something and did i appreciate it at the time?......... so its good to be generous and kind to yourself all the time is it not!

Edited October 31, 2009 by yumidesign

[submaniac]

Actually, you look scary in the 22 year old photo, your current age picture is nicer.

Funny you should mention that, cuz it's one of the GF's favorite pictures! And getting back to my comment on differing tastes of heterosexual women compared to homosexual men...girls like the badboys, thugs, sleazebag-douchebags-ala-Kevin-Federline-types...gay men have a little better taste than that!

[sbk]

Not this girl. I can't say I like bad boys at all. Or at least, not bad looking boys. I like the clean cut type, tbh.

Anyway, at least for me, yumi has hit the nail on the head regarding dishiness as a youth. I remember looking at photos of myself at the time and thinking "oh my god, I look awful" and then, ten years later, looking and thinking, "wow, I looked pretty good, why did I hate this photo so much?" and the process continues today.

Is it, as JT says, kinda sad to have not been dishy as a youth? No, cause some men (and women) develop their dishiness as they get older. And some people are just so charming and interesting that physical appearance isn't the reason for their dishiness. But, some people have neither and yes, that is kind of sad, but the world is made up of all types and not everyone gets graced with dishiness.

[submaniac]

not everyone gets graced with dishiness.

except for sbk. she has it in droves

[Jingthing]

Is it, as JT says, kinda sad to have not been dishy as a youth? No, cause some men (and women) develop their dishiness as they get older.

Some, but not all.

So people who have never been dishy, and perhaps include with that those who never realized they were dishy, will have to speak for themselves whether they were sad about that. I don't doubt that most aren't sad, people have ways of adapting to the deck of cards they were dealt.

In my case at age 19 I was at the peak of my je nais c'est dishie phase and I bloody well knew it. This was the pre-Aids time so you could find me most any night at the Lost and Found disco, attracting almost anyone I wanted there (no money, much honey), sowing my wild oats, and literally having a ball. Without the dish factor, the only "wild" oats I would have likely seen would have been from the old Quaker dude.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Jingthing

[marc11864]

I DID dishes at a Perkin's cake and steak house when I was a young man! Does that count?

[Jingthing]

I DID dishes at a Perkin's cake and steak house when I was a young man! Does that count?

We would have to see a picture.

[Ijustwannateach]

Submaniac: you weren't ugly, then or now!

SBK: Better watch out, I don't know if "dishiness" is allowed to be applied to women (better ask JT! )

JT: Ok, this is your thread, so I'm bowing out of more serious discussion- so when are we going to see 'then and now' photos of you?

[Jingthing]

Submaniac: you weren't ugly, then or now!

SBK: Better watch out, I don't know if "dishiness" is allowed to be applied to women (better ask JT! )

JT: Ok, this is your thread, so I'm bowing out of more serious discussion- so when are we going to see 'then and now' photos of you?

Of course women can be dishy; however this thread is about male beauty from a gay male perspective. My contention is that their are unique aspects to the gay male experience, you may agree or not.

Not being ugly is not the same as being dishy, that's like praising an actor for knowing his lines.

No pictures of me, you must be joking.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Jingthing

[Unfaithful]

I was super dishy.Now I wash dishy young men.

[Svenn]

I'm 24 now and recently emerged from nerdity, so I guess I feel 'dishy' now (omg that word is so obviously British). Until just a couple years ago I was very akward and lanky and I think that detracted from my attractiveness. So the next 6 years will probably be my best, and then I'll start balding. Farang usually all look old to the Thais- even 18 year old backpackers will be mistaken for 30.

[Jingthing]

I'm 24 now and recently emerged from nerdity, so I guess I feel 'dishy' now (omg that word is so obviously British). Until just a couple years ago I was very akward and lanky and I think that detracted from my attractiveness. So the next 6 years will probably be my best, and then I'll start balding. Farang usually all look old to the Thais- even 18 year old backpackers will be mistaken for 30.

Enjoy your time under the dishy sun. Dishy British? I suppose so, being as I come from New Joiseyshire , innit?

Edited November 2, 2009 by Jingthing