Atm Scam

[wilson steer]

From Pattaya Mail April 15th 2005:

ATM rip-off

Editor;

Please notify your customers that it is true that ATM numbers are being taken and used. I was down in Ban Chang playing golf with the ATM card in my pocket as 30,000 baht was stolen from my account. I notified Bangkok Bank - they made out a printout of my account and it showed that while I was on the golf course, 10,000 baht was taken out at the Thai Military Bank at Foodland and 20,000 baht more was taken out at the Bank of Ayudthya across the street.

I was told by Bangkok Bank to make out a police report. I did this and reported back to the Bangkok Bank. I was then told by Bangkok Bank to go to the Bank of Ayudthya and the Thai Military to identify who took my money as pictures are taken when ATM cards are used. I was doubtful but did this. As I suspected, no pictures were taken. (Just a bunch of bull) No one seems interested and doubted my word that my money was stolen. They tried to accuse my wife or someone else in the house. It was pretty hard as the ATM Card was in my possession on the golf course. None of the banks want to take responsibility for the stolen money.

A few months ago when I used the Siam Commercial Bank ATM at Foodland a strange thing happened. When I inserted my card into the ATM, the ATM screen came up with this notice: YOUR PIN NUMBER HAS BEEN STOLEN. I was shocked and quickly looked around to see if someone was near. No one was around. I reinserted my card and all processed normally. I checked the money in my account and all seemed well. I almost forgot this until 30,000 baht went missing from my account.

After all the running around I have come to the following conclusions. 1) The banks don’t care, 2) the police don’t care, 3) numbers are being stolen - I believe that my ATM number was stolen at the Siam Commercial Bank at Foodland where they do have personnel working, or at Bangkok Bank at Naklua where I have my bank account. I also believe that the bank that has your account should be responsible to replace the stolen money.

Anyway, let your readers know it is happening - if an ATM screen ever says your pin number has been stolen, change you pin number immediately. Also, the banks and police do not seem to be of any help.

Herbert H. Ishinaga

MY VIEWS:

This guy has been in Pattaya a long time and I believe this story, but just how does it happen. I have heard about 'skimming' cards but then they still need a PIN and what about bank workers, can they get PIN's?

Just how secure is it to actually own an ATM card for a Thai bank? I am checking my balance daily now...

Wilson Steer.

[LaoPo]

It happens.

Recently in Holland they arrested a group of people who had FAKE 'covers' installed at various ATM-machines around the country; They look very professional and nobody noticed they were false.

The 'covers' copy the pincodes and also 'know or remember' the bankaccount.........simple as that.

I don't know if this was also the case in the press-article but could be.

Maybe there is an international criminal organization, installing these FAKE COVERS on ATM-machines...

Watch very careful if the ATM looks real at any time you want to take money from any teller.

LaoPo

[Upcountry]

What LaoPo reports has also occurred in the US. But in those cases, the victims did not get a message saying their pin had been stolen. Instead, the machine acted as if it was our of order. Isn't it odd to tell the victim as soon as the theft occurs? I guess they are confident that the won't get caught!

It seems strange that after that message came up the user was able to get money out with a second try. That makes me think the thieve(s) use a different method to get the pin/account and money.

In the states, if the atm/bank senses a problem with the card, it’ll swallow it up and require the owner to contact the bank.

[LivinLOS]

Often amazes me to see how unprotected ATM's are here in Thailand.. There was even one on a cart that appeared to be on wheels !!!! Can you imagine that in liverpool !!!!

Scams for in collection can only happen in a limited subset of places.. False card insert slots into a genuine machine is undoubtedly the most sohisticated and unlikely.. False fronted machines (give an error after logging in) are not that hard to rig up and also totally flase stand alone machines appearing is also well with the bounds..

[Darknight]

They probably added a chip or software to the ATM

that

Scanned your magnetic strip

Then presented the message "your pin has been stolen, please type it again"

Recorded that.

Then put you over to the regular routine

By the way, ATM's are just regular NT or XP workstations these days.

[Rinrada]

The 2 most valuable things anybody has in their possession at any one time is their Passport and Credit Cards.(excluding wife on this..sorry)and should never be let out of your sight (including wife on that one )and what do we do.....

Did you enjoy your meal sir.....jolly good... that will be £76 please...or whatever..Credit Card that will do nicely as he dissappears to do the business (and skims your card)at the back of the curtain.

Later on you wanna hire a motorbike in Chiang Rai....we need your passport sir...just for security like......(he-he)

Never done anything so STU-PID ...have we

[baht&sold]

This is close to home, well sort of, I had this on my mind just a couple hours ago- Tonight, at foodland Ploenchit, I put in my BKK bank card into the Bkk bank atm. It took the card alright but after I put in my pin#, it said "Number is not valid". I shrugged, cancelled and reinserted it, same thing! Then I tried the Kasikorn ATM opposite and it said 'cannot complete' or something. The 4th time I put it into Bkk ATM, it warned my card would void (after succesive unsuccessful tries).

I called the 1333 # (I think that's it) on the atm machine and got thru to a real person. She said I could go to Central Chidlom before 8 pm to the branch there. I couldn't believe they had a branch open actually. Nervously wrote a withdrawal for 40k (not sure why, was worried my account was cleaned out!). My balance checked out roughly OK thankfully but there's a weird withdrawl for 1171.60 baht from 2 days ago??? The code says CMB which apparently means 'no book withdrawl'. Well, I only use ATM, didn't use my card for about a week, so wassup?

Have to wait untill monday to get a new card and I'm a bit concerned. I should've cancelled 'any possible' atm access at the sub-branch this evening, just to be sure. I guess if I was to be a victim, the perps would've cleaned me out already. Strange all the same, ' Number not valid' + the weird charge etc.

[Pattaya_Fox]

This letter was taken from a local newspaper this week and makes rather disturbing reading.

ATM rip-off.

Editor;

Please notify your customers that it is true that ATM numbers are being taken and used. I was down in Ban Chang playing golf with the ATM card in my pocket as 30,000 baht was stolen from my account. I notified Bangkok Bank - they made a printout of my account and it showed that while I was on the golf course, 10,000 baht was taken out at the Thai Military Bank at Foodland and 20,000 baht more was taken out at the Bank of Ayudthya across the street.

I was told by Bangkok Bank to make out a police report. I did this and reported back to the Bangkok Bank. I was then told by Bangkok Bank to go to the Bank of Ayudthya and the Thai Military to identify who took my money as pictures are taken when ATM cards are used. I was doubtful, but did this. As I suspected, no pictures were taken. ( just a bunch of bull). No one seems interested and doubted my word that my money was stolen. They tried to accuse my wife or someone else in the house. It was pretty hard as the ATM card was in my possession on the golf course. None of the banks want to take responsibility for the stolen money.

A few months ago when I used the Siam Commercial Bank ATM at Foodland a strange thing happened. When I inserted my card into the ATM, the ATM screen came up with this notice: YOUR PIN NUMBER HAS BEEN STOLEN. I was shocked and quickly looked around to see if anyone was near. No one was around. I reinserted my card and all processed normally. I checked the money in my account and all seemed well. I almost forgot this until 30,000 baht went missing from my account.

After all the running around I have come to the following conclusions. 1) The banks don`t care. 2) the police don`t care. 3) numbers ARE being stolen - I believe that my ATM number was stolen at the Siam Commercial Bank at Foodland where they do have personnel working, or at Bangkok Bank at Naklua where I have my bank account. I also believe that the bank that has your account should be responsible to replace the stolen money..

Anyway, let your readers know it is happening - If an ATM screen ever says your pin number has been stolen, change you pin number immediately. Also the banks and police do not seem to be of any help.

Herbert H Ishinaga.

[wilson steer]

I posted this early yesterday morning on 'Business and Banking' there are a few good replies. (There)

My paranoia, is increasing with Thai bank accounts. This guy (ATM victim) has been in Pattaya ages and I believe his story.

What can a falang do? I know in my heart that we (falang) have not got a chance, even in a bona fide dispute with a Thai bank.

Comments welcome.

Wilson Steer.

[DJ Pat]

What can a falang do? I know in my heart that we (falang) have not got a chance, even in a bona fide dispute with a Thai bank.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is really a sad state of affairs when crimes against farangs are just brushed under the carpet.

But you see, the Thai assumption is that we are all millionaires anyway so why are we complaining about a pittance 30,000 Baht?

[simey]

To get money from your account at an atm the thieves need two things, a copy of track 2 of the mag stripe on your card and your pin. If the atm you suspect has indeed copied your card then there will be two things, a skimmer device that sits over the original card reader and a someone to spot your pin or a camera to record it. The skimmers are difficult to spot and so your best defence is your pin - when you enter it cover the hand you use with your other hand to obscure the pin entry.

The message on the atm screen is very strange, i'll have to check up on what could happen there.

The banks normally refund you the money if you tell them it was not you and get the police report, it's cheaper for them than investigating it. I'm surprised they didn't.

This is a temporary situation right now, banks are moving over to using the chip on the card to verify the id and the chip is very hard to copy.

If you are suspicious of an atm, don't use it and move on to another.

[simey]

They probably added a chip or software to the ATM

that

Scanned your magnetic strip

Then presented the message "your pin has been stolen, please type it again"

Recorded that.

Then put you over to the regular routine   

By the way, ATM's are just regular NT or XP workstations these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The track from the card could be copied by the atm, it's recorded and logged anyway. The PIN is entered on the keypad which is a separate device that encrypts the number you enter before passing it to the ATM software, the PC never sees the pin in the clear.

[wilson steer]

But: can a bank worker obtain a PIN from insider shady business. I understand the concept of skimming cards, but to make a copy card the W/D cash, surely a PIN is needed, and there is a 1 in 9688 chance in that (the other 322 PIN's are not valid PINS)

W.S.

[the scouser]

Often amazes me to see how unprotected ATM's are here in Thailand.. There was even one on a cart that appeared to be on wheels !!!! Can you imagine that in liverpool !!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right! Within a millisecond the wheels'd be gone.

Scouse.

[simey]

But: can a bank worker obtain a PIN from insider shady business. I understand the concept of skimming cards, but to make a copy card the W/D cash, surely a PIN is needed, and there is a 1 in 9688 chance in that (the other 322 PIN's are not valid PINS)

W.S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All pins are valid (not sure what you mean by not valid). A bank employee could only get the pin by intercepting the mailer that was sent with the card that had the pin on it.

The pin is generated by applying an algorithm and a set of secret keys to the account number to generate the 'native' pin, when you change the pin the difference between the native and your choice (the offset) is stored either on the card or at the banks central system. The way the pin is retrieved is either over the shoulder watching, camera, or fake pin entry keypad. Protect your pin and bail out of any transaction at an atm where something seems wrong.

[stumonster]

I am not impressed with bangkok bank printing my card number on the reciept it issues - despose of your reciepts in a thoughtful manner.

skimmers mounted where you insert your card will also need a backup camera to record your pin - these have mostly been hidden in a stuck on pamphlet holder on the ATM.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/atmcamera.asp

http://www.utexas.edu/admin/utpd/atm.html

Freestanding ATMs should be veiwed with suspicion - many scams have been perpetrated with them , you place the ATM somewhere busy and it will even dispense cash , but you will gett pin numbers and card info without raising suspicion.

if you see a skimmer device attached to a machine , your best bet is to leave it alone and report it , as the person who installed it is likely to be observing it and probably would react violently to you removing his expensive device.

[aqua4]

Well the long and the short.

Fake ATm machines in Thailand would be a bit hard to hide, well at least to me. What I do know is that if someone gets a hold of your card, be it at a hotel or resturant, that can copy the card by machine. IT, there is a dupliate card running around.

NOW:

Baht&Sold, that is an odd amount. 1171.60 baht You cannot draw 60 setang from a machine. However if a card is cloned and even if it is a Thai card, if it has a VISA logo, you can still "swipe" the cloned card as a normal transaction. No need for pin numbers.

There are alot of scams around. Being in Thailand, you might not be on guard as you would be at home, so someone could still peer over your shoulder to see your pin if they wanted. What they use to do in South Africa after hours was to place 2 paper clips between the rollers in the ATM machine. In this way your card goes in, but does not come out, until you kow how to remove the paper clips from the rollers.

By this time you are thinking the card has been swollowed, but it is not so. This in mind you only call the bank the next day. However your card has been available the whole night to a gang.

[stumonster]

a fascinating summary written up by Diebold -- the leading manufacturer of ATMs -- of the latest card-scamming techniques (PDF link)

[wilson steer]

That is a great .pdf post stumonster. Absolutely facinating, and the previous post with the pamphlet holder concealing a camera. My paranoia level has gone through the roof!

On two occasions; I requested a withdrawal and the ATM made all the right noises yet no money came out. Once for £50 in the U.K. (The bank never took my complaint seriously) and another time in the Philippines (about £80 ish) and the bank never refunded that either.

I am sure that there was a collection cover now, so my money was grabbed later.

W.S.

[alex100]

This is not a new story _ I first encountered this in 1988 - Thai Farmers Bank that used to be where the Bush Gardens Bar is anyone remember big steps - I used to send 10000 baht per month by wire from Saudi to my 18 yr old tilac now my wife of 16 years with 2 great kids. She had her account raided twice by bank staff - when she went to complain it was dissmissed - a young percieved service girl with no comeback. The bank staff pocket the money and the complaint is dismissed. I then set up a monthly transfer from Lloyds offshore Jersey after the same thing happened the were very apologetic and the robbery was reversed. I am sure the same thing applies here - the scamming technology is not that advanced in LOS. I would bet the bank staff are still up to their old tricks tragetting farangs and people who find it difficult to complain and prove theft.

[Jack Jones]

I think he should have reported the incident when he saw 'YOUR PIN NUMBER HAS BEEN STOLEN.' on the screen as opposed to just ignoring it

[huski]

I think he should have reported the incident when he saw 'YOUR PIN NUMBER HAS BEEN STOLEN.' on the screen as opposed to just ignoring it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes, a very strange case

A few months ago when I used the Siam Commercial Bank ATM at Foodland a strange thing happened. When I inserted my card into the ATM, the ATM screen came up with this notice: YOUR PIN NUMBER HAS BEEN STOLEN. I was shocked and quickly looked around to see if someone was near. No one was around. I reinserted my card and all processed normally. I checked the money in my account and all seemed well. I almost forgot this until 30,000 baht went missing from my account.

to have a message come up, "your pin number has been stolen"... how can the bank know this unless you have either reported it, or a duplicate card is using the system somewhere else at the same exact time. regardless, how can the bank's software allow you to re insert the card and then withdrawl funds when your account should be frozen.

[Vulture]

Maybe your numbers been stolen busines is just a ruse by the scammers so that you enter your pin for a second time, ie just incase their camera does not clock it the first time around. Its about time the banks took a bit more responsibilty though.

[simey]

The screen is very strange, and also maybe a little suspicious. When you insert your card it checks the prefix to decide whether the card is accepted and if to offer langauges, then the ATM junps to a screen that is held on the hard disk. Technically it cannot jump to a different screen the second time, the programing of these is very simple. Until you select the amount and enter your pin nothing is sent to the bank, so the screen cannot have been generated there as he said it was displayed immediately.

There is no problem with the same card being used at the same time.

I suspect that the customer was confused with the PIn IS STOLEN screen, this happens a lot as customers get confused with the sequence of events. Also what kind of thief would go to the effort of skimming the card and then telling the customer that the PIN was stolen before actually letting him enter the pin?

Banks don't keep details of stolen pins, they simply change the card status to lost/stolen which will cause the ATM to be told to retain it.

[tuky]

I called the 1333 # (I think that's it) on the atm machine and got thru to a real person. She said I could go to Central Chidlom before 8 pm to the branch there. I couldn't believe they had a branch open actually. Nervously wrote a withdrawal for 40k (not sure why, was worried my account was cleaned out!). My balance checked out roughly OK thankfully but there's a weird withdrawl for 1171.60 baht from 2 days ago??? The code says CMB which apparently means 'no book withdrawl'. Well, I only use ATM, didn't use my card for about a week, so wassup?

bahtandsold,

similar problem with me recently. Only mine was the other way around.

It seemed that when my pay went into my bank it should have been xx amount rather then the x amount that was shown during the passbook update. The code alongside the deposit was CMB.

We went to the bank to find out where the rest of my pay went and had to pay 200baht and wait 1 week for a normal detailed statement .

However, the teller looked it up and told me that CMB means Combined, She said to save space when updating they will CMB (combine) all the recent transactions into one which will either be a deposit or a withdrawal, in your case it was a withdrawal that sounds to me like it was a couple of fees taken out, where as my deposit was what was left of my pay after our withdrawals had been processed.

Did that just make sanse?

[Pattaya_Fox]

I called the 1333 # (I think that's it) on the atm machine and got thru to a real person. She said I could go to Central Chidlom before 8 pm to the branch there. I couldn't believe they had a branch open actually. Nervously wrote a withdrawal for 40k (not sure why, was worried my account was cleaned out!). My balance checked out roughly OK thankfully but there's a weird withdrawl for 1171.60 baht from 2 days ago??? The code says CMB which apparently means 'no book withdrawl'. Well, I only use ATM, didn't use my card for about a week, so wassup?

bahtandsold,

similar problem with me recently. Only mine was the other way around.

It seemed that when my pay went into my bank it should have been xx amount rather then the x amount that was shown during the passbook update. The code alongside the deposit was CMB.

We went to the bank to find out where the rest of my pay went and had to pay 200baht and wait 1 week for a normal detailed statement .

However, the teller looked it up and told me that CMB means Combined, She said to save space when updating they will CMB (combine) all the recent transactions into one which will either be a deposit or a withdrawal, in your case it was a withdrawal that sounds to me like it was a couple of fees taken out, where as my deposit was what was left of my pay after our withdrawals had been processed.

Did that just make sanse?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well all I can say is that this is an absolutely appalling way of a financial institution supposedly taking care of your bank account.

To add or subtract debit and credit transactions together without actually itemising each transaction is stupid and unecessary in this modern computer age.

How on earth are you supposed to keep a track of your account?

Then they ask you for 200 baht for an itemised statement so that you can try to unwrangle their inept bookeeping.

When I cash a cheque or make a withdrawal at a bank in Thailand I would say that 90% of the bank staff have not yet even learned how to say please or thank you and treat you as if they are doing you a favour.

It is time that their attitude changed and they realised that the customers are paying their wages.

[wilson steer]

Yes; I agree,

When I update my savings book at the Thai bank, they merge every transaction into one and use one line of the book, so nothing is checkable.

Also it annoys me that I have to pay 20 baht, for an ATM withdrawal, 100 baht a year bank fee and 200 baht withdrawal fee overseas and get 0% interest.

But I dread the day I go to the ATM and all my cash In the LOS has vapourised. I have less than a million (baht) there but if it disappeared overnight, I would not be happy!!

W.S.

[thaieagle67]

I have recently sent in a reply to the Pattaya Mail rearding this ATM scam with a story of my own (signed off as Lightweight Dave). I have had no response from lawyers and the Police, so it realy grips me that the staff of the Bank Of Asia bank on 2nd road are still probably laughing at the angry farang.

I have lived on and off in Thailand for the last 10 years so i know i shouldn't get miffed with locals but i just couldn't help it. The treatment of my wife on immediately reporting a loss of funds from the bank (80,000 Baht) was a bloody discrace, my wife, her card and me were out of town on a fishing trip during the period of the theft but the staff wouldn't have it. When my wife asked to be shown full details of the transactions they just entered one figure into her bank book so we coudn't trace it back:realangry:

I have been led to believe that there is a web site and TV channel that the thais can contact regarding matters like this, to which apparently some success has been reached. The problem i have is that my wife is reluctant to push the issue to far in fear of retribution (mafia!!)

This is becoming a fear facture around the Expat & Thai friends i have in Thailand general, especially those who maintain large sums or retirement sums in a local bank. Is there anything else we can do? For me the banks of Thailand should come under a governing body and they should be accountable for the protection of your money, as in most European and North American banks. As for the cameras that should be mandatory installed inside all ATM's, all we keep hearing is that the cameras were off line at the time or no film or even no camera installed. I can only advise to use an ATM that you know for sure is protected with a working camera

[Eneukman]

Someone who lives in Pattaya offered this advice some time ago. Open a second account at your bank and keep the bulk of your funds in that account. Destroy the card for that account so there's no way anyone other than you can draw funds from it. Then transfer a regular sum to the other account monthly, which should restrict your losses if anything goes wrong.

This seems like a good idea unless anyone is aware of any pitfalls - apart from the obvious of not keeping sufficient funds in the account you have a cash card for!

Alan

[Khutan]

Protect your pin and bail out of any transaction at an atm where something seems wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent advice.