Songkran Week Tolls – 351 Dead, 8,769 Injured

[sammo]

I LIVE IN ARANYAPRATHET AND THIS TIME OF YEAR IS FOR THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOTHING ELSE. LET THEM ENJOY IF YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT LOOK ON LIFE MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Forgive my ignorance, but i have travelled a fair bit throughout the land of smiles and have never ventured upon Aranyaprathet. So i was just wandering what is so desparate about the place that the only thing its residents have to look forward to, is throwing water around one day a year.......

Seriously though, the statistics given for the road carnage in Italy are complete nonsense. I hope it was a typo, otherwise whatever that guy is on - i'd like some.

Using the figures given, it would only take 3 hours to achieve the sort of death toll that the 9/11 attacks achieved! ("War on Holidaying" anyone?!)

The huge loss of life here though is without doubt tragic and needless , but it is Thai folk doing what Thai folk want to do. Yes there are laws that exist and there are laws that could be introduced to combat this 'problem'. Personally i am with AJARN on this subject. The distant shores that most of us left behind to pitch up tent in this country are brimming with laws and rules governing our everyday lives, and I simply don't want it here to that extent. Countries that can send a 70 year old man to prison for persistently refusing to pay a parking fine, cannot preach to this country about 'how it should be done'. Do we really want to see the land of smiles rife with speed cameras, speed bumps, parking meters, nasty cops in high speed cars?. Let's enjoy the relative freedom this country allows us and stop trying to import our 'nanny state' ideas to try and make this place like the one we left behind. For sure, there would be a lot more whining and moaning on this great website if that were the case.

Assuming readers and posters of this forum have a good level of common sense, then let's use it as we go about our everyday lives here, and let the Thai people do as they wish to do.

If we all hate Songkran so much, we could follow an old mate of mine who, after 20 years in Pattaya, simply flies to the Phils for two weeks holiday at this time of year.

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Aranyaprathet. So i was just wandering what is so desparate about the place that the only thing its residents have to look forward to, is throwing water around one day a year.......

It is truly ghastly.

The counterpoint to the border town of Poipet - which I have read described as 'the armpit of Cambodia' - and it is.

Edited April 15, 2005 by The_Eye_Of_Sauron

[sammo]

Aranyaprathet. So i was just wandering what is so desparate about the place that the only thing its residents have to look forward to, is throwing water around one day a year.......

It is truly ghastly.

The counterpoint to the border town of Poipet - which I have read described as 'the armpit of Cambodia' - and it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that. I'll give it a wide berth then!

[The_Other_Mac]

Chiang Mai sounds more dangerous than Bangkok. I made a couple of laps of Silom today and yesterday, and I was interested to see that relatively few people aimed at moving motorcyclists and the odd cyclist (very odd). Tuk tuk drivers in motion were also left alone, although their passengers were fair game. And the three young (rather shy) ladies I was with were touched only on their faces. Have people actually paid attention to the bombardment of TV safety ads?

I reckon Chiang Mai could really do with more pedestrian zones (that allow Songkran pickups).

[Boatabike]

Once again, the story utterly fails to put the statistics used into perspective.  Thailand had a bit over 13000 traffic fatalities last year - 36 on an average day, with or without Songkran.  I imagine most people take away from this story that 351 deaths occurred in these 7 days due to Songkran festivites, but keep in mind that in the 7 days prior, assuming it was a typical week, about 250 died in traffic accidents, even without water fights.    Accident rates go up about 60% during the '10 days' of Songkran. This is hardly suprizing with all the mahem and people driving drunk.  The Songkran road death toll certainly tragic, but not so shocking when held up against the tragedy of the daily carnage that happens on Thai roads every single day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would i be right in assuming that the majority of the anti songkran festival people posting here live in the big cities? Where traffic is already a heavy problem? Add songkran to any large city and of course its mayhem, but then it is supposed to be. I tried songkran in Bangkok, i wouldnt recomend it to anyone, apart from the constant 10 baht 10 baht to fill your water pistol up which is not what the festival is about at all, the fun factor was minimal. Try heading out to the smaller towns where the people behave in a better and much more social way, in fact stop asuming that your one city is Thailand in general. Bangkok or pattaya are not the whole of thailand. In fact there about the worsed of Thailand as i see it, so when u sit there judging Thai people, Thai festivals in your high and mighty European / american way, sitting behind your comp screen feeling so smug and superior the rest of us will be having a ###### good time playing songkran safely!

[jdinasia]

Please ... don't be idiots guys. Compare the number of accidents/deaths on the roads in any of your home countries due in large part to drinking and driving over a big holiday weekend like New Years (or 4th of July in the USA)

Most of the fatalities are NOT caused by throwing water. They are caused by drink driving.

Then look at your home and see if on those same occassions fireworks being thrown etc don't cause a number of deaths too.

But basically .... really .... if you don't like it move back to your repressive "Judeo-Christian" countries! Please! (or at the very least do what the other old codgers do during songkran .... stock up on videos and call out for delivered dinner .... or make your visa runs!)

Edited April 16, 2005 by jdinasia

[maxisrael]

The security guard of our building crashed his motorcycle yesterday and broke his collar bone. The reason: someone splashed water in his face.

I bet a lot of the accidents are caused by motorcycles either trying to dodge water or being temporarily blinded from water in their eyes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the reason I stay at home had once a bucket of ice-water in my face at apx. 60kph lukely i was be able to stay on the bike.

And Beware of the Farang on a madness spree they are usualy the worst of all

Edited April 16, 2005 by maxisrael

[maxisrael]

The security guard of our building crashed his motorcycle yesterday and broke his collar bone. The reason: someone splashed water in his face.

I bet a lot of the accidents are caused by motorcycles either trying to dodge water or being temporarily blinded from water in their eyes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the reason I stay at home had once a bucket of ice-water in my face at apx. 60kph lukely i was be able to stay on the bike.

And Beware of the Farang on a madness spree they are usualy the worst of all

[Tippaporn]

Plus consistency. This is where I see the crux of many problems here...

All of the usual joking about crackdowns aside, this lack of consistency in the application of the law is really why there are so many crackdowns in Thailand. A crackdown in Thailand is the periodic enforcement of some existing law, rarely the implementation of new legislation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And to a lack of consistency in parenting, teaching, religion...

Enforcement of laws works here, as does most everywhere else but it's rare to see it happen, thn when it does happen, we are told where, along with the start/stop dates.

The only consistent enforcement of laws I can think of are the ones regarding farangs and immigration laws.

The thing is, all of us continue to benefit by other lax laws, no matter who you are.. Frankly, an attraction (not the only one!) for me. I've never liked rules much, or others telling me what to do. That's part of my reason for moving here. Not that I am doing anything bad, but I still want the choice in case I ever change my mind

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I LIVE IN ARANYAPRATHET AND THIS TIME OF YEAR IS FOR THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOTHING ELSE. LET THEM ENJOY IF YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT LOOK ON LIFE MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Forgive my ignorance, but i have travelled a fair bit throughout the land of smiles and have never ventured upon Aranyaprathet. So i was just wandering what is so desparate about the place that the only thing its residents have to look forward to, is throwing water around one day a year.......

Seriously though, the statistics given for the road carnage in Italy are complete nonsense. I hope it was a typo, otherwise whatever that guy is on - i'd like some.

Using the figures given, it would only take 3 hours to achieve the sort of death toll that the 9/11 attacks achieved! ("War on Holidaying" anyone?!)

The huge loss of life here though is without doubt tragic and needless , but it is Thai folk doing what Thai folk want to do. Yes there are laws that exist and there are laws that could be introduced to combat this 'problem'. Personally i am with AJARN on this subject. The distant shores that most of us left behind to pitch up tent in this country are brimming with laws and rules governing our everyday lives, and I simply don't want it here to that extent. Countries that can send a 70 year old man to prison for persistently refusing to pay a parking fine, cannot preach to this country about 'how it should be done'. Do we really want to see the land of smiles rife with speed cameras, speed bumps, parking meters, nasty cops in high speed cars?. Let's enjoy the relative freedom this country allows us and stop trying to import our 'nanny state' ideas to try and make this place like the one we left behind. For sure, there would be a lot more whining and moaning on this great website if that were the case.

Assuming readers and posters of this forum have a good level of common sense, then let's use it as we go about our everyday lives here, and let the Thai people do as they wish to do.

If we all hate Songkran so much, we could follow an old mate of mine who, after 20 years in Pattaya, simply flies to the Phils for two weeks holiday at this time of year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, let me throw in my two satangs . . . after reading the entire thread my favorite quotes are the two above, by Sammo and Ajarn.

I'm all for Songkran in it's present form. If you want to use statistics to make a point why not compare the degree of joy felt by millions during this festival to the degree of pain? Say, 10,000,000 to the total dead and injured of 9,120 as the figure given in the first post. That would come out to approx. 0.09%.

So let's abolish the opportunity for the tremendous joy felt by so many in order to avoid the possibility of pain experienced by relatively few. Sounds like the traditional western approach. Help the helpless who are lost without your help by limiting their choices because they just aren't as smart as you are to make choices for themselves. Halloween in the U.S., which brings joy each year to millions upon millions of children and adults alike is now highly regulated with set trick or treat times, generally confined to daylight hours, and in some instances moved to a day other than Halloween.

May Thailand never graduate to a Western approach to life!

There will always be people literally ranting about doom and gloom. They'll provide endless lists and statistics for everything and anything that could go wrong in any given situation to help convince people that they need to be just as afraid to live life as they are. This is life, folks. It's time to accept that living means dying because in one way or another that's where we're all headed.

Death is a little understood subject. Now, does anyone ever consider that how a person dies is not the same as why a person dies? Does anyone ever consider that maybe, just maybe, death is a chosen event and not an event forced upon anyone? Maybe then people would leave others to live and die as they choose. Take care of your own business, which is your own life, and don't worry so much about the 'helplessness' of everyone else. They're in control as much as you are.

Edited April 16, 2005 by Tippaporn

[iang]

"I bet a lot of the accidents are caused by motorcycles either trying to dodge water or being temporarily blinded from water in their eyes."

AND also motor bikes swerving into the side of vehicles or worse, in front of other vehicles, to avoid the water.

[ChrisP]

The Deputy Interior Minister urged drivers to be careful and encouraged them to use roadside rest stations if they are too exhausted or too sleepy to drive in order to reduce road accident and fatality.

Nobody picked up on this wonderful "face-saving" quote then..?

ChrisP

[Boatabike]

This is the reason I stay at home had once a bucket of ice-water in my face at apx. 60kph lukely i was be able to stay on the bike.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What type of road was this and if in town isnt 60km breaking the limit some what? and if so doesnt that make u as much in the wrong as the idiot throwing water? Or perhaps more so for driving so fast when you know that there are idiots throwing water into peoples faces. Just a thought.

[pschef]

how[/i] a person dies is not the same as why a person dies? Does anyone ever consider that maybe, just maybe, death is a chosen event and not an event forced upon anyone? Maybe then people would leave others to live and die as they choose. Take care of your own business, which is your own life, and don't worry so much about the 'helplessness' of everyone else. They're in control as much as you are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this qoute sums up not only Songkran, but also the whole way of life in Thailand. We are here because we choose to be, so enjoy it while you still can. As others have said, if you dont like it, fly out or stay indoors. Great Quote Tippaporn, I will keep my eyes open for your wisdom.

[taxexile]

Maybe then people would leave others to live and die as they choose. Take care of your own business, which is your own life, and don't worry so much about the 'helplessness' of everyone else. They're in control as much as you are

when a drunk driver hits your car head on , then your death is not in your control or of your own choosing , even though you are taking care of your own business.

neither is the quadriplegia , brain damage , amputations , disfigurement , blindness etc.etc. caused by the stupidity of revellers who go over the top.

neither is the drunk driver in control of his actions , he and others like him are just messing things up for others.

this could apply to anywhere in the world and not just thailand.

its down to common sense and awareness and respect for others.

death due to the inconsiderate acts of others is usually called manslaughter , you can try and hide that reality by dressing it up in quasi- religious or quasi - philosophical cotton wool , tippaporn , but try telling the loved ones of someone who has been terribly injured or killed by a drunk that "there is no need to fret or worry , because it was meant to be."

Great Quote Tippaporn, I will keep my eyes open for your wisdom.

you can keep your eyes open for as long as you like , but you wont find much wisdom in the ramblings of tippaporn !

[Ajarn]

This is the reason I stay at home had once a bucket of ice-water in my face at apx. 60kph lukely i was be able to stay on the bike.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What type of road was this and if in town isnt 60km breaking the limit some what? and if so doesnt that make u as much in the wrong as the idiot throwing water? Or perhaps more so for driving so fast when you know that there are idiots throwing water into peoples faces. Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many of these speeding bikers are trying to avoid getting doused. It's usually pretty easy to see the wet road ahead... In observations yesterday out of town, when bikers slowed or stopped for 'blessings', the were mostly treated okay, but anybody trying to speed on by was hit with all the water force they could muster... And any young women were preyed upon by all. Most were clearly not happy.... Drunk guys seemed to be the biggest sources of annoyment for all around.

[bangkokian]

According to ITV, Songkran Zoning law is expected to be issued next year.

Someone also suggested banning alcohol throughout the festival.

If people ain't gonna show more responsibility, there'll be more and more excuses to turn LOS into a police state.... This is the trend all over the world.....

[Zoltan]

Everyone knows the risks.. so if you dont like it stay indoors. Would you rather go running with the Bulls.

[ovenman]

This is the reason I stay at home had once a bucket of ice-water in my face at apx. 60kph lukely i was be able to stay on the bike.

What type of road was this and if in town isnt 60km breaking the limit some what? and if so doesnt that make u as much in the wrong as the idiot throwing water? Or perhaps more so for driving so fast when you know that there are idiots throwing water into peoples faces. Just a thought.

Is this some sort of rationalization in which you are trying to make an it serves them right claim (i.e. motorcyclists deserve to get knocked off their bikes because they are traveling at a blazing 60 km/h)?

[taxexile]

Everyone knows the risks.. so if you dont like it stay indoors

some people have to go out to get to work etc.

[ovenman]

According to ITV, Songkran Zoning law is expected to be issued next year. 

Someone also suggested banning alcohol throughout the festival.

Don't worry masterchief, the good people of Aranya Prathet can relax (who, as we all know, have nothing else during the year to look forward to). It's a very safe bet that the Thai government will do neither in 2006.

[The_Moog]

Asked Mrs Moog....her Thai-take is....

1) The truck guys with water jets are trying to knock down the cyclists, but not to kill them.

2) The cyclists (not those who are going to work etc) , are also playing Songkran, the getting soaked and avoiding the dousing is part of the scene - falling off the bike and dying is not what they want (obviously), but its part of the risk - the Game.

Ovenman below: 'The latter is reassuring, but if the motorcyclists do get killed in the process, mai pen rai, right?'

Broadly speaking, she says, they're not happy if someone gets mangled before them.

(I guess they see it all just as a big 'Dangerous Sport', like the midnight motor-bike races I saw last month in the downtown Jakarta streets) .

Edited April 16, 2005 by The_Moog

[ovenman]

1) The truck guys with water jets are trying to knock down the cyclists, but not to kill them.

The latter is reassuring, but if the motorcyclists do get killed in the process, mai pen rai, right?

2) The cyclists (not those who are going to work etc) , are also playing Songkran, the getting soaked and avoiding the dousing is part of the scene -  falling off the bike and dying is not what they want (obviously), but its part of the risk - the Game.

See above response.

[tolsti]

at least the smelly backpackers on Kao San rd get a shower... like it or not.

[daeng1212]

I just talked to a Thai friend who told me his pickup truck was in an accident with a motorcycle. The cause: the motorcyclist swerved into the path of the pickup to avoid being hit by a bucketful of water being thrown at him. No significant damage to the truck, but the motorcycle went down and the motorcyclist's leg was broken. I also saw a guy who was unloading cases of Coke get hit by a blast of water thrown from a passing pickup truck. He was definitely upset about it. Not all Thais like what Songgran has become. From what I've read, in the past it mostly involved people pouring (not throwing) reasonable amounts of water on other people (not motorists) as a kind of blessing. Nowadays it usually involves teens, kids, and young adults throwing large amounts of water forcefully at motorized vehicles. As a motorcyclist, I dislike this behavior. I agree that we farangs don't have a right to complain too much about practices in a country that is not our own, but I also think that helping educate our Thai friends about the dangers of throwing water at motorcyclists is a good thing to do.

[The_Other_Mac]

death due to the inconsiderate acts of others is usually called manslaughter , you can try and hide that reality by dressing it up in quasi- religious or quasi - philosophical cotton wool , tippaporn , but try telling  the loved ones of someone who has been terribly injured or killed by a drunk that "there is no need to fret or worry , because it was meant to be."

Great Quote Tippaporn, I will keep my eyes open for your wisdom.

you can keep your eyes open for as long as you like , but you wont find much wisdom in the ramblings of tippaporn !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I see the wisdom.

So what exactly DO you say to comfort the loved ones of someone who has been terribly injured or killed by any other method? Death is sad, it generally upsets people. So stop smoking, drinking, eating too much, eating the wrong food, drinking tapwater, drinking the wrong type of bottled water, going outside at night, crossing roads, living near pollution, living near sickness... Stop living on this planet, it's dangerous.

Any time I hear of the tragedy of death statistics, I wonder what we are all supposed to be dying of. Can your non-religious, non-philosophical, no-nonsense scientific approach answer that?

[ovenman]

Any time I hear of the tragedy of death statistics, I wonder what we are all supposed to be dying of. Can your non-religious, non-philosophical, no-nonsense scientific approach answer that?

I can assure you that for whatever reason(s) people should be dying, getting blasted off one's motorbike with buckets of water by drunk &lt;deleted&gt; riding in a pickup truck, all in the name of sanuk, is not on that list.

Edited April 16, 2005 by ovenman

[The_Other_Mac]

Any time I hear of the tragedy of death statistics, I wonder what we are all supposed to be dying of. Can your non-religious, non-philosophical, no-nonsense scientific approach answer that?

I can assure you that for whatever reason(s) people should be dying, getting blasted off one's motorbike with buckets of water by drunk &lt;deleted&gt; riding in a pickup truck, all in the name of sanuk, is not on that list.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Should we avoid it by having the govt. repeat the statistics, advertising campaigns, and on a personal level reminding others how dangerous it is, frowning at people who aim at motorcyclists, teaching children that it's not sanuk to aim at motorcyclists? Yes.

Should we avoid it by banning water guns, banning pickups, banning alcohol, banning spaghetti tops* and generally regulating the ###### out of the festival? No.

(Coming next year: "Spaghetti tops and wet clingy clothing cause carnage road on our roads by distracting motorcyclists at a time when they need to be on the lookout for water-throwing. If you won't think of yourself, think of the danger to others.")

[taxexile]

Should we avoid it by having the govt. repeat the statistics, advertising campaigns, and on a personal level reminding others how dangerous it is, frowning at people who aim at motorcyclists, teaching children that it's not sanuk to aim at motorcyclists? Yes.

Should we avoid it by banning water guns, banning pickups, banning alcohol, banning spaghetti tops* and generally regulating the ###### out of the festival? No.

(Coming next year: "Spaghetti tops and wet clingy clothing cause carnage road on our roads by distracting motorcyclists at a time when they need to be on the lookout for water-throwing. If you won't think of yourself, think of the danger to others.")

so its perfectly ok for out of control revellers to throw buckets of water onto motorcyclists who may then lose their balance and crash into other vehicles.

would you send your kids out on motorcycles over songkraan?

drinking the wrong sort of bottled water , smoking cigarettes , eating the wrong kind of food is your choice , do it or dont do it.

dying or being left maimed due to the actions of someone else is not your choice.

[Pattaya_Fox]

Any time I hear of the tragedy of death statistics, I wonder what we are all supposed to be dying of. Can your non-religious, non-philosophical, no-nonsense scientific approach answer that?

I can assure you that for whatever reason(s) people should be dying, getting blasted off one's motorbike with buckets of water by drunk &lt;deleted&gt; riding in a pickup truck, all in the name of sanuk, is not on that list.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Should we avoid it by having the govt. repeat the statistics, advertising campaigns, and on a personal level reminding others how dangerous it is, frowning at people who aim at motorcyclists, teaching children that it's not sanuk to aim at motorcyclists? Yes.

Should we avoid it by banning water guns, banning pickups, banning alcohol, banning spaghetti tops* and generally regulating the ###### out of the festival? No.

(Coming next year: "Spaghetti tops and wet clingy clothing cause carnage road on our roads by distracting motorcyclists at a time when they need to be on the lookout for water-throwing. If you won't think of yourself, think of the danger to others.")

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When any celebration gets out of hand and results in so many deaths and injuries then even your flippancy looks out of place....

If you understood what the traditional meaning of Songkran and the water festival was you may not look at some of the comments made by members as being restrictive, but more as being constructive.

It`s ok to merry make and have a good time, but in my opinion slaughter through idiocy should not be condoned or tolerated.

[The_Other_Mac]

taxexile:

>so its perfectly ok for out of control revellers to throw buckets of water onto motorcyclists who may then lose their balance and crash into other vehicles.

No, it isn't perfectly okay. That's why I said it should be discouraged (but not regulated).

>would you send your kids out on motorcycles over songkraan?

Obviously I wouldn't "send" them, I might or might not ban them, perhaps depending on their age, responsibility, ability with the bike, and whether they intend to join or avoid the action. I'd also make sure they had another option that they could choose, without feeling too embarrassed in front of their mates. But then, I would have taken the same attitude any other day of the year.

I personally don't ride them anywhere, at any time, as they, and Thai traffic, are so obviously dangerous.

> drinking the wrong sort of bottled water , smoking cigarettes , eating the wrong kind of food is your choice , do it or dont do it.

So how come cigarattes are being taxed out of reach and banned everywhere? In Europe, T-bone steaks were banned due to mad cow disease, as various soft cheese have been due to bacterial content. So much for personal choice. How about choosing not to ride a bike during Songkran (or at all), why isn't that a personal choice?

>dying or being left maimed due to the actions of someone else is not your choice.

Judging and taking personal risks, is.

Now let me just emphasise my point again, so you don't quote those answers out of context. Throwing water at motorcyclists is BAD. It should be avoided. People dying in road accidents is BAD. It should be avoided. It is NOT appropriate to deal with these things by banning alcohol, or by banning Songkran, or by banning water-throwing or pickups or water guns or other suggestions. You could make up a silly law banning propelling-more-than-50cc-of-liquids-towards-people-in-charge-of-a-motorcycle-in-motion-while-under-the-influence-of-alcohol-

-and-standing-in-a-pickup-during-official-Songkran-dates

if you want. I don't think it will help very much, but at least you can feel righteous that there's a law about it. Or, you can just encourage people not to do it. Notice that food-vendors and small children don't come under fire very much? I doubt there's a law about it, it's just considered bad form.

Pattaya Fox:

> When any celebration gets out of hand and results in so many deaths and injuries

It appears to be a 60% increase over typical days. That sounds comparable to the biggest festivals of western countries.

>If you understood what the traditional meaning of Songkran and the water festival

Spare me the TAT version. Throwing water has been a tradition for a couple of generations. Same in Cambodia and Burma. 100 years ago, there weren't any motorbikes or water guns so it wasn't an issue; however we live in a modern world, not some dreamy classical vision of Siam that had little resemblence to how common people lived then.

>It`s ok to merry make and have a good time, but in my opinion I'm going to repeat the same blah as above without making any connection.

And I bet you hate Christmas too.

Edited April 16, 2005 by The_Other_Mac