Arrested For Not Having A Work Permit...

[davejonesbkk]

I know someone that was recently arrested for teaching without a wp. This person spent the night in jail and had to pay a very hefty amount for bail. They have a court date set in a few weeks time. What will happen to them?

[way2muchcoffee]

One of several things could happen.

1) Pay a fine, released, get papers sorted.

2) Pay a fine and get deported.

3) Held in immi for several weeks, pay a fine, get deported.

It's up to the judge to prefer the sentence, then it's up to immigration to decide whether or not to deport.

[davejonesbkk]

Ok so who actually has the final say on whether that person is deported or not? The judge or immigration?

[Mario2008]

The judge can sentence him to jail, maximum is 5 years and as a result he would also be expelled.

He will aslo have violated immigration laws, and after the court has dealt with him immigration can expell him on their own for that reason. I think that is however highly unlikely, unless he will be sentence to a jail term. That seems also unlikely, a fine is the norm.

The labour law has a preference for people admitting, agreeing to a fine and to be expelled.

[longstebe]

How did he get caught?

[siggie2]

How did he get caught?

Getting nervous???????

[Mario2008]

How did he get caught?

Labour and immigration are known from time to time to raid some places and check for work permits.

[longstebe]

Left myself wide open for that one .

Currently seeking work though. Any jobs?

[Mario2008]

Left myself wide open for that one .

Currently seeking work though. Any jobs?

Better ask around in the teaching forum, if you want a job as a teacher.

Now you are highjacking soemone elses thread

[longstebe]

A teacher.....erm no thanks.

If I wanted to stay here long term. That means going down the right path and not having to look over my

shoulder.

[davejonesbkk]

Not sure how he was caught.

[monty]

The deportation does not get decided on, but is normally automatic.

Thai law states that if a foreigner is convicted of a criminal offense, regardless of how small the sentence might be (e.g. small fine), that foreigner's visa is automatically voided, making that person defacto illegally in Thailand.

So, assuming that working without a work permit is a criminal offense, part of the paperwork the judge signs of is the deportation order.

The judge can also stipulate that the offender has to be deported to his own country alone, but his is usually not done for relative minor offenses.

Basically immigration does none of the judging, but will simply follow up on the orders of the judge.

After paying the fine you'll be cleared of your charges, but you will be handed over to immigration as youare now in Thailand without visa and have to be deported. Good timing (having airfare ticket ready) means all should move relatively smooth.

[Nio]

Since when do people working as school teachers have HEFTY AMOUNTS of cash to pay bail with?

I seriously have to question this poster?

If this person had hefty amounts of cash on hand, then why was he working illegally without a work permit in the first place?

This is another I have a friend story, short on any facts, dates, locations, names what so ever.

TV readers need to stop jumping on the heresay bandwagon and demand these posters present some kind of facts or evidence before riling up the whole forum

[TerryLH]

"After paying the fine you'll be cleared of your charges, but you will be handed over to immigration as youare now in Thailand without visa and have to be deported."

Would this be the case when the WP and visa are not tied to each other?

[Spoonman]

"After paying the fine you'll be cleared of your charges, but you will be handed over to immigration as youare now in Thailand without visa and have to be deported."

Would this be the case when the WP and visa are not tied to each other?

No, i would not have thought so.

[alyx]

Since when do people working as school teachers have HEFTY AMOUNTS of cash to pay bail with?

I seriously have to question this poster?

If this person had hefty amounts of cash on hand, then why was he working illegally without a work permit in the first place?

This is another I have a friend story, short on any facts, dates, locations, names what so ever.

TV readers need to stop jumping on the heresay bandwagon and demand these posters present some kind of facts or evidence before riling up the whole forum

Strange assessment

1) hefty: depending on their financial situation, "hefty" might start from 10,000 Baht for some.

2) Cash on hand: some people save money / some people have their families helping them when

3) It is not a hearsay: it is the OP's friend enquiring

4) In this kind of cases it seems a bit difficult to give more details to the readers, doesn't it?

I know, all of this is off topic but, a couple of times, I have been under fire of some of TV members who could not believe I was posting to help someone

Edited December 7, 2009 by alyx

[davejonesbkk]

Since when do people working as school teachers have HEFTY AMOUNTS of cash to pay bail with?

I seriously have to question this poster?

If this person had hefty amounts of cash on hand, then why was he working illegally without a work permit in the first place?

This is another I have a friend story, short on any facts, dates, locations, names what so ever.

TV readers need to stop jumping on the heresay bandwagon and demand these posters present some kind of facts or evidence before riling up the whole forum

Yeah sure I'll just post his full name, name of the school where he worked at etc etc perhaps I should put his email address and personal mobile number here too.

[Stumbo]

Let me guess what happens to the Thai business that employed him, wouldn't arrange a work permit and underpaid him? Um, er, nothing whatsoever?

[brahmburgers]

It irks me that farang get shafted with large fines.

In contrast, Thais get small fines, or no fines at all for serious offenses.

I grew up in a country which boasted, "justice is blind' ...meaning all people are treated equally in the eyes of the law. Ok, it's not anywhere near perfect in the real world, but at least the laws are meted out somewhat objectively om the US.

In Thailand, justice sees 20/20, when it comes to gauging whether a lawbreaker is Thai or farang. If farang, it's automatically assumed he/she can go innumerable times to an ATM to get limitless amounts of cash for whatever reason.

Hire 60 thugs to go and destroy a square block of downtown Bangkok, and you get off without a fine - if you're Thai.

Get accused of dropping a cig butt on a sidewalk (which you didn't do, in the 1st place) and you're subject to immediate 2,000 baht fine - if you're a farang.

[Spoonman]

You know where the door is brahmburgers...............

[Briggsy]

I have 2 friends who were arrested in totally separate companies in different fields, one in IT, one teaching. Each was arrested along with several foreign colleagues in a 'raid'.

Both were arrested in the morning and out by the afternoon after their employers paid a bribe to immigration to get all their foreign employees released. What has been given on this thread is the correct legal procedure. What I am giving here is what has happened to my friends, both of whom were back at work the following day still with no work permit.

[monty]

"After paying the fine you'll be cleared of your charges, but you will be handed over to immigration as youare now in Thailand without visa and have to be deported."

Would this be the case when the WP and visa are not tied to each other?

Yes. Definitely. Any conviction simply voids your visa. Whatever this visa might have been for.

If you are here on a tourist visa and you get caught for theft, you get convicted and your tourist visa gets voided.

If you are here on a non-o visa, extended based on marriage, and you get convicted of theft, the entire visa/extension gets voided.

Same if you get convicted of working without WP. Any visa you migh hold, it'll get voided.

[monty]

It irks me that farang get shafted with large fines.

In contrast, Thais get small fines, or no fines at all for serious offenses.

I grew up in a country which boasted, "justice is blind' ...meaning all people are treated equally in the eyes of the law. Ok, it's not anywhere near perfect in the real world, but at least the laws are meted out somewhat objectively om the US.

In Thailand, justice sees 20/20, when it comes to gauging whether a lawbreaker is Thai or farang. If farang, it's automatically assumed he/she can go innumerable times to an ATM to get limitless amounts of cash for whatever reason.

Hire 60 thugs to go and destroy a square block of downtown Bangkok, and you get off without a fine - if you're Thai.

Get accused of dropping a cig butt on a sidewalk (which you didn't do, in the 1st place) and you're subject to immediate 2,000 baht fine - if you're a farang.

Patently not true.

Most foreigners pay big amounts (they might cal them "fines") for not having to go through the proper legal procedure.

Any foreigner going through the proper legal procedure usually gets fined the same as what a Thai national would get fined.

Many reports of people with massive, multiple year overstays being fined just a few thousand Baht, many times less then what they would have paid just leaving Thailand through the airport...

The biggest problem foreigners have is the voiding of their visa's after being ordered to pay this small fine, resulting in deportation. Which might be a major hassle for example for people here on a WP. Hence a lot of people going for the pay-of to avoid being deported, losing visa, losing Wp etc...

I'm not talking about petty offenses such as cigarette butt fines or speeding fines, yes, foreigners will be asked more there.

I'm talking about court cases.

[monty]

I have 2 friends who were arrested in totally separate companies in different fields, one in IT, one teaching. Each was arrested along with several foreign colleagues in a 'raid'.

Both were arrested in the morning and out by the afternoon after their employers paid a bribe to immigration to get all their foreign employees released. What has been given on this thread is the correct legal procedure. What I am giving here is what has happened to my friends, both of whom were back at work the following day still with no work permit.

That's how it works in Thailand. In most, non capital offenses, people will be given the option of "settling" the case before going to court.

Most Thai people wouldn't even bother as they know the fine given by the judge in a court case will be low. The might maybe if they want to keep their record clean or some such.

They do not have the issue of losing their visa and being deported, they just pay the fine and go on with their lives!

[wintermute]

It irks me that farang get shafted with large fines.

If you think a 2,000 baht fine for littering is excessive then you're forgetting that you would have to pay several times that amount in the U.S. Not to mention most of the crimes in Thailand that would get you a slap on the wrist and a comparably small fine would get you real prison time in the U.S. and/or deportation as a foreign visa holder.

Stop whining or gain some perspective.

[brahmburgers]

You know where the door is brahmburgers...............

I'm here for the long term. I'll die in Thailand, and my body will get incinerated and contribute to the haze here, chortle. However, I mention these things because word gets out of grossly unequal fines, between Thais and farang, and it puts a damper on farang visiting the country, which affects the bottom line of Thailand's biggest money earner. Personally, I visit Bkk as seldom as possible (about once each 3 years), so extortion by cops and pseudo cops is not a direct problem for me. I made the decision from the get-go to reside in a relatively small city which isn't polluted by the scam artists and crooked cops that inflict touristy cities here.

It irks me that farang get shafted with large fines.

If you think a 2,000 baht fine for littering is excessive then you're forgetting that you would have to pay several times that amount in the U.S. Not to mention most of the crimes in Thailand that would get you a slap on the wrist and a comparably small fine would get you real prison time in the U.S. and/or deportation as a foreign visa holder.

Stop whining or gain some perspective.

If you bring comparative practices in US and Thailand, then the whole equation changes.

2,000 baht fine is excessive, particularly when the cops aren't really cops (in disguise) and the farang doesn't smoke and didn't litter - as has been reported often. Even if the farang did litter such a tiny bit, it's excessive when Thais dump garbage by the truckloads all over the country every day and you'd be hard pressed to find one who has ever been fined. ....not to mention the common practice of leaving outdoor grounds covered in trash after every outdoor event.

As for the person who said it wasn't a fine - that's just semantics. 2,000 baht paid to an authority for a petty offense, puts a dent in the wallet - whether you call it a fine or call it something else.

[mojaco]

<snip>

I made the decision from the get-go to reside in a relatively small city which isn't polluted by the scam artists and crooked cops that inflict touristy cities here.

<snip>

AGREED about Chiang Rai! Even the beggars are free from mafia control, no apparent overcharging we "farang", no such things as "cigarette police". A very nice town/city.

[Mario2008]

This topic is about what happens when you get arrested for not having a work permit. Please stay on topic.

[longstebe]

Having never worked in Thailand before, what would be the reason for not having a work visa?

Is it a tax thing or the leg work to get one?

If a teacher earns approx 25,000 baht per month how much would he pay in taxes?

Benefits must come with paying your taxes, surely?

I don't like the risk, especially if I wanted to stay here.

Also If your arrested, doesn't this go in the system for the next time you enter Thailand?

[monty]

There can be a multitude of reasons why people work without a work permit.

Maybe the employer doesn't cooperate as they need 4 Thai employees (with taxes/social security paid) for each foreigner they employ/

Unfortunately many employers tell the foreigner simply "not to worry", and many newbie foreigners accept that, unknowing to the risks they take.

Taxes on 25,000 Baht salary would be very low (around 500 Baht/month), with another 750 Baht in social security.

Yes, the risk is high. Arrest, fine and deportation. First offense will likely not result in being blacklisted though.

Yes, it goes on record, the person will likely have no problems returning, but the chance for him ever going legal (meaning receiving a work permit) are very slim after being caught!