Why Are There So Few Thais In Britain?

[citizen33]

DP25's estimate of about 30,000 Thais in the UK is probably about right but it is very hard to get a handle on this. A recent research project by Jessica Mai Sims quotes 2001 census data showing only a reported 16,256 people of Thai birth in England and Wales (note not the UK), of which 72% are women. 4824 of these were living in London (Thai British Families: Towards a Deeper Understanding of 'Mixedness'. pp 10-16 in Sims, J.M. (ed.) Mixed Heritage: Identity, Policy and Practice. London: Runnymede Trust, 2007). This seems very low and my guess is that it doesn't reflect the loosening of immigration policy in the years before the recent shift to points-based immigration. In my provincial city there must be several hundred Thai people, mainly wives but also a few students. Like another poster, I find that my wife has more friends than I do. I'd group most of the UK-based Thais I know into two categories: (a) those who see themselves as staying for a while to build up funds for an eventual return, and (b ) those who enjoy the UK and plan to stay. Either way I don't see too many pining for an early return. Two different women I talked to recently have split from their British partners but are desperate to find a way to stay. A lot of the gossip centres on how to get a UK passport, which is seen as very valuable. The points-based immigration system and the rising price of visas may have some impact. I've heard that it is making the UK less attractive for Thai students compared with say Australia or the US.

P.S. The weblink for above report is here.

http://mixedness.millipedia.net/Default.as...001.Lang-EN.htm

Edited January 4, 2010 by citizen33

[DegenFarang]

A better question is why would a Thai even WANT to go to Britain? Nobody else does unless they are trying to escape from turmoil in their own country... hence you get a lot of displaced people from Pakistan, India and Aftrica. And, those that arrive bring all their problems with them and try to perpetuate it in Britain.

You really don't know the answer to that?

Non-skilled entry level job in Thailand pays 8,000 baht per month for 6 10+ hour days a week. How much do you get in the UK for bagging groceries for 60 hours a week for a month?

[jackspratt]

[astral]

Why would anyone want to live in Britain????????

Miserable climate, unfriendly people, need I go on?

PS I am British.

[londonthai]

She couldn't wait to go back home, couldn't eat much and found the "Brits" very unhelpful and thought they were angry people

in the uk you can easily eat any food you want - including thai (restaurants, shops, mail order).

as to "unhelpfulness" might be just a language berrier. thai might understand english, but native english (who never mixed with thai or travelled to thailand) won't understand them.

"angriness" might be just a different pace of life - thai tend to do things half the speed of brits, taking life too easy, mai bpen rai attitude.

For thai time has a different value. my wife says - we don't rush, just walk slowly and with a dignity, and we are happy.

when you come first time to the country everything is different and shocking for a year or two, after that many thai do appreciate many aspects of life in the uk (security, low crime, safety on the roads, cleaneliness, politness to everybody and not only to superior to you, responsibility)

[endure]

If you're looking for temporary Thais you need to look around the universities that are Asian friendly. Nottingham University has an arrangement with Thammasat. Warwick, Manchester, Cambridge and other universities have Thais students (usually post-grad).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Student_...#United_Kingdom

[GucciLittlePiggy]

I wanted to invite a Thai friend over to the UK for a few weeks. She had her own money in the bank, a hotel booking, a return air ticket, a car rental booking, annual travel insurance and owns her own home.

She was rejected without even being invited to interview.

Frankly the state the UK is in they should be welcoming legitimate tourists with open arms not spurning them like that. Needless to say she has no interest in going to the UK anymore, and instead applied for and was given an Australian tourist visa instead. So all her tourist $$ will go there.

Seems the UK just cannot get immigration right.

JJ.

My buddy disappeared to Pakistan for 2 months a while back, only to reappear with a bride on his arm. Nothing unusual there, other than he had never met her and she's his first cousin. FWIW he has cerebal palsy, a common genetic condition affecting families that inter-marry.

I sometimes wonder about the fairness of this. Why can't British citizens marry (and bring back) who they goddam like? There'd be an awful lot more thais around here if they could.

[7by7]

Your buddy's wife would have been subject to exactly the same immigration requirements as the non EU spouse of any other British citizen, including those from Thailand.

There have been a few posts in this topic which demonstrate almost complete ignorance of the UK immigration rules and procedures as well as the reality of the situation. Each year on average over 90% of visa applications made in Bangkok are successful. Experience has shown that, whilst ECOs do make mistakes, the most common reason for refusal is not that the applicant didn't qualify; but that they failed to show that they did.

A read through the Visas and migration to other countries forum may enlighten those who require it.

JJ, it is impossible to comment on the rights/wrongs of your friends refusal without knowing a lot more details; ideally what the refusal notice said. If you want advice on this, feel free to post in the above forum.

BTW, cerebral palsy is not a genetic condition

While in certain cases there is no identifiable cause, other etiologies include problems in intrauterine development (e.g. exposure to radiation, infection), asphyxia before birth, hypoxia of the brain, and birth trauma during labor and delivery, and complications in the perinatal period or during childhood.[3] CP is also more common in multiple births.......(source)

[GucciLittlePiggy]

90% may be approved, although i have my doubts about the figures, but the point here is only those with their ducks pretty well lined up are going to get to that stage in the first place - most will have been weeded out of application process long before and I'd imagine the 10% are the ones who cannot spell their names or fill in forms properly. Meet a girl in a gogo and try to get her back to the UK - very difficult I'd imagine. But the point remains; why should my mate be allowed to marry and bring back a girl he's never met, when I can't bring my long term girlfriend to the UK because she may have once worked in a bar? Ethics and morality, please, not stats.

CP may not be genetic - again I have my doubts - but rates within Pakistani communities are double that of people from equivalent socio/economic environments. The difference appears to be explained by the extremely high rates of interbreeding.

Edited January 4, 2010 by GucciLittlePiggy

[Larry321]

Yes I was of the same opinion few Thaïs in UK

Until I married one.... don't know why they popped up in town all over my wife got tired of me making her new friends.

If we passed a couple that looked Thai I would just say loudly "Swedee Kap"

A remarkable effect they appear.

Yes the climate is cold so they stay in side try the smell of green curry that too works.

Having said that yes they seem to be few, I would like to know the actual figures but I don’t think the UK has any idea who is here really but they are workers and engage directly in domestic and Service work Hospitals etc long hours and so straight home, so you don’t tend to find them unless a holiday or Saturdays but they are about and once you know 1 you will find a community very friendly and helpful people

[7by7]

GLP,

I'm sorry, but you are again displaying an ignorance of the UK visa process. You seem to have fallen for the propaganda put about by unscrupulous visa agents (many of whom are, I'm sad to say, Brits) in order to con the unknowing out of their money.

1) Why would the government produce false figures?

2) There is no long application process, no 'weeding out.' One submits the application, an ECO judges it on it's merits and a visa is issued or refused. That's it. Although for much of last year, for various reasons, applications were taking up to 3 months to process (some longer), the processing time is now back to it's more normal 2 to 3 weeks max; often much less (one recent poster in the visas forum said his wife got her visa after just one day).

3) You can bring your long term girlfriend to the UK, if you wish. I know of cases where a couple have lied in their visa application about where they met, the lie has been discovered and the application refused. I know of even more where they have told the truth and been successful. Ex bar girls do get UK visas; liars don't.

Personally, I don't give a dam_n how a couple met each other; it is their present and future together that's important, not their past. Experience shows that the visa staff at the Bangkok embassy agree with me.

The plain fact is that if ex bar girls didn't get UK visas there'd be fewer Thais in the UK than there actually are.

4) Your friend must have met his wife, or she would not have been allowed into the UK as his wife.

One of the most basic requirements of the immigration rules is that in order to issue a settlement visa to a spouse; the couple must have met. Furthermore, if someone were to apply for a visit visa based upon a relationship with a UK sponsor, if they had not met that sponsor then it is unlikely that the visa would be issued.

5) It does not matter what nationality a visa applicant is; the rules and criteria are the same whether one is Thai, Pakistani, American, whatever. Although I'll grant you that some nationalities may find it easier to meet the criteria than others.

You may not care for statistics, but the same ones I referred to earlier show that the success rate in Pakistan is far lower than it is in Bangkok; just over 50%! If the argument that there are not many Thais in the UK because they cannot get a visa was true, then there'd be even fewer Pakistanis in the UK than there are Thais!

5) Whatever the reason(s) for the low number of Thais in the UK compared to other ethnic groups; the difficulty or otherwise of obtaining a visa is not a factor.

(According to SCOPE, there may be a genetic link to cerebral palsy, but this is quite rare (source).)

[Jeddah Jo]

Your buddy's wife would have been subject to exactly the same immigration requirements as the non EU spouse of any other British citizen, including those from Thailand.

There have been a few posts in this topic which demonstrate almost complete ignorance of the UK immigration rules and procedures as well as the reality of the situation. Each year on average over 90% of visa applications made in Bangkok are successful. Experience has shown that, whilst ECOs do make mistakes, the most common reason for refusal is not that the applicant didn't qualify; but that they failed to show that they did.

A read through the Visas and migration to other countries forum may enlighten those who require it.

JJ, it is impossible to comment on the rights/wrongs of your friends refusal without knowing a lot more details; ideally what the refusal notice said. If you want advice on this, feel free to post in the above forum.

Thanks for the offer, but I don't really want advice. It is clear to me when someone has been treated unfairly and unreasonably and an injustice has been committed. It is really up to the UK immigration service in Bangkok to get its act together and not subject legitimate tourists to an inconvenient, insulting and offensive experience.

The Australian visa application process was smooth, respectful and trouble free. She was granted a visa without even being interviewed, she is now looking forward to dumping 2-3K GBP on the Australian economy during her forthcoming holiday rather than the UK one.

JJ.

[bangon04]

I'm amazed no-one has posted the main reason.....they cant get a visa.

If it was easy for a Thai to get into Britain then I am sure you would see a lot more over there, weather or not.

HL

It's easier for a Thai to get a visa than it is for an Iraqi or an Afghani. It must be that the truck ride is much longer and therefore too uncomfortable.....

[andyww]

I wanted to invite a Thai friend over to the UK for a few weeks. She had her own money in the bank, a hotel booking, a return air ticket, a car rental booking, annual travel insurance and owns her own home.

She was rejected without even being invited to interview.

Frankly the state the UK is in they should be welcoming legitimate tourists with open arms not spurning them like that. Needless to say she has no interest in going to the UK anymore, and instead applied for and was given an Australian tourist visa instead. So all her tourist $$$ will go there.

Seems the UK just cannot get immigration right.

JJ.

Indeed. Even the politicians cant explain it.

They state that the EU is a good thing and should be expanded as far as possible, which means more and more countries are allowed to enter the UK. Then they state immigration needs to be controlled/reduced. This means ever more stringent rules against Thai and others, even if skilled, whereas unskilled people from new EU countries can come in unrestricted. Its discrimination.

[7by7]

The Australian visa application process was smooth, respectful and trouble free. She was granted a visa without even being interviewed

I am not saying that the UK visa process and those charged with administering it are perfect; they're not and mistakes are made. However, if she satisfied the criteria for an Australian visit visa then she would also satisfy those for a UK one.

Therefore one only conclude that her UK application was so poorly prepared that she did not give a true picture of her circumstances and that the Australian one was far better prepared. Especially as the Australian visa officers would know that she had previously been refused a UK visa and so look at her application more closely than they otherwise might..

But as said before, it is impossible to tell for sure without knowing what reason the British ECO gave for the refusal. Without that information it is impossible to comment on whether she was treated fairly or not.

[GucciLittlePiggy]

GLP,

I'm sorry, but you are again displaying an ignorance of the UK visa process. You seem to have fallen for the propaganda put about by unscrupulous visa agents (many of whom are, I'm sad to say, Brits) in order to con the unknowing out of their money.

1) Why would the government produce false figures?

2) There is no long application process, no 'weeding out.' One submits the application, an ECO judges it on it's merits and a visa is issued or refused. That's it. Although for much of last year, for various reasons, applications were taking up to 3 months to process (some longer), the processing time is now back to it's more normal 2 to 3 weeks max; often much less (one recent poster in the visas forum said his wife got her visa after just one day).

3) You can bring your long term girlfriend to the UK, if you wish. I know of cases where a couple have lied in their visa application about where they met, the lie has been discovered and the application refused. I know of even more where they have told the truth and been successful. Ex bar girls do get UK visas; liars don't.

Personally, I don't give a dam_n how a couple met each other; it is their present and future together that's important, not their past. Experience shows that the visa staff at the Bangkok embassy agree with me.

The plain fact is that if ex bar girls didn't get UK visas there'd be fewer Thais in the UK than there actually are.

4) Your friend must have met his wife, or she would not have been allowed into the UK as his wife.

One of the most basic requirements of the immigration rules is that in order to issue a settlement visa to a spouse; the couple must have met. Furthermore, if someone were to apply for a visit visa based upon a relationship with a UK sponsor, if they had not met that sponsor then it is unlikely that the visa would be issued.

5) It does not matter what nationality a visa applicant is; the rules and criteria are the same whether one is Thai, Pakistani, American, whatever. Although I'll grant you that some nationalities may find it easier to meet the criteria than others.

You may not care for statistics, but the same ones I referred to earlier show that the success rate in Pakistan is far lower than it is in Bangkok; just over 50%! If the argument that there are not many Thais in the UK because they cannot get a visa was true, then there'd be even fewer Pakistanis in the UK than there are Thais!

5) Whatever the reason(s) for the low number of Thais in the UK compared to other ethnic groups; the difficulty or otherwise of obtaining a visa is not a factor.

(According to SCOPE, there may be a genetic link to cerebral palsy, but this is quite rare (source).)

Too much spin, mistruths and contradictions to even bother with. The rest is an object lesson in the bleeding obvious.

And top straw manning, fella.

But may I ask, what is your direct experience of this issue? Have you worked in immigration? For the government? Tried to bring a bar girl back to the UK? Or are you just trying to legitimise the unfathomable?

[Richard W]

But may I ask, what is your direct experience of this issue? Have you worked in immigration? For the government? Tried to bring a bar girl back to the UK? Or are you just trying to legitimise the unfathomable?

I know for sure of quite a few former bar girls (and I don't mean barmaids) who have been brought to England as wives or fiancées, as opposed to those whom my wife or I merely suspect of having been bar girls. I can name posters who have admitted on this forum to having done so - Shrek, Big Spuds and, unless I am confusing him with a poster with a similar name, Mae Rim.

I can remember someone complaining that on another forum that an official at the British consulate warned him that if his wife didn't admit to meeting him at a bar, she would be denied a visa. I can't say how many tried hiding having been a bar girl, but doing so nowadays would be very dangerous.

The UK Immigrant Advisory Service has, but it was about ten years ago, given the following simplified advice on bringing a bar girl to England:

1) As a mere girlfriend or less, forget it.

2) As a wife or fiancée, forget it if she's still working in the bar.

3) Otherwise, as a wife or fiancée, the odds are good.

I will admit that I have seen very little evidence that the ECOs know who is actually still working in the bars - do they have someone in their pay at So No Bangrak?

I have been told by an ECO in Bangkok that the main reasons for refusing settlement visas for spouses are inadequate income or accommodation, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.

Going back further (20 years?), I can remember a couple of Thai sisters playing the nasty game of spot the bar girl at the Wimbledon temple - they reckoned a high proportion of the ladies there had been bar girls, and this was in the days of 'primary purpose' and immigrant hotel staff from Thailand.

Finally, I would point out that many of the immigration rules about spouses seem to be targeted on brides from the subcontinent.

[7by7]

Too much spin, mistruths and contradictions to even bother with.

I challenge you to give just one example of the above in any of my posts on this topic, with an explanation of why it is spin, a mistruth or a contradiction.

The rest is an object lesson in the bleeding obvious.

If it's bleeding obvious, why do you fail to grasp the point that the difficulty, or otherwise, of obtaining a visa is not a significant factor in the number of Thais in the UK? Why do you keep pushing the line put about by the con men masquerading as visa agents that it is next to impossible?

At least, that seems to be your position based upon your posts; not straw manning at all. Maybe you can clarify?

But may I ask, what is your direct experience of this issue? Have you worked in immigration? For the government? Tried to bring a bar girl back to the UK?

I have successfully applied for settlement visas for my wife and step-daughter. I have also successfully applied for visit visas for various members of my wife's family.

I am not a qualified adviser, neither have I ever worked for UK immigration in any capacity. But I have read thoroughly the immigration rules, entry clearance guidance and other information on visa regulations and requirements provided by the UK government.

I have been reading about visa applications on boards such as this for nearly 10 years, and learnt from the experiences of others.

This reading means I have for some time felt knowledgeable enough to offer my own advice to visa applicants, a significant proportion of whom have been ex bar girls, and their sponsors. The majority of these have been successful, and I like to think that my advice has helped in that success.

Although I do not claim to know everything about the subject; far from it. I'm still learning.

What experience with UK visas have you had?

[7by7]

The UK Immigrant Advisory Service has, but it was about ten years ago, given the following simplified advice on bringing a bar girl to England:

1) As a mere girlfriend or less, forget it.

2) As a wife or fiancée, forget it if she's still working in the bar.

3) Otherwise, as a wife or fiancée, the odds are good.

I would disagree slightly with this.

If a girl is still working in a bar, then the ECO is going to suspect that she wants to enter the UK to continue in this line of work and the visa would probably be refused; whatever category she applied for.

However, if she is no longer working in the bar, then her chances are good for a visit visa as well as for settlement.

I know of plenty of ex bargirls through boards such as this one who have successfully obtained a visit visa to the UK based purely on the belief by the ECO that they are a genuine visitor in a genuine relationship with their sponsor. Most of them returned to Thailand after their visit and are know back in the UK with settlement visas.

[GucciLittlePiggy]

I challenge you to give just one example of the above in any of my posts on this topic, with an explanation of why it is spin, a mistruth or a contradiction.

Maybe. What would I win?

What experience with UK visas have you had?

None whatsoever, although over a decade of working for the Home Office, with many friends and colleagues in various immigration/asylum/embassy services, has given me a pretty good idea of how things operate. I know who's welcome and who isn't. I know how rules can be applied with indetectable discrimination.

All you really need do is look at the figures...

[GucciLittlePiggy]

But may I ask, what is your direct experience of this issue? Have you worked in immigration? For the government? Tried to bring a bar girl back to the UK? Or are you just trying to legitimise the unfathomable?

I know for sure of quite a few former bar girls (and I don't mean barmaids) who have been brought to England as wives or fiancées, as opposed to those whom my wife or I merely suspect of having been bar girls. I can name posters who have admitted on this forum to having done so - Shrek, Big Spuds and, unless I am confusing him with a poster with a similar name, Mae Rim.

I can remember someone complaining that on another forum that an official at the British consulate warned him that if his wife didn't admit to meeting him at a bar, she would be denied a visa. I can't say how many tried hiding having been a bar girl, but doing so nowadays would be very dangerous.

The UK Immigrant Advisory Service has, but it was about ten years ago, given the following simplified advice on bringing a bar girl to England:

1) As a mere girlfriend or less, forget it.

2) As a wife or fiancée, forget it if she's still working in the bar.

3) Otherwise, as a wife or fiancée, the odds are good.

I will admit that I have seen very little evidence that the ECOs know who is actually still working in the bars - do they have someone in their pay at So No Bangrak?

I have been told by an ECO in Bangkok that the main reasons for refusing settlement visas for spouses are inadequate income or accommodation, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.

Going back further (20 years?), I can remember a couple of Thai sisters playing the nasty game of spot the bar girl at the Wimbledon temple - they reckoned a high proportion of the ladies there had been bar girls, and this was in the days of 'primary purpose' and immigrant hotel staff from Thailand.

Finally, I would point out that many of the immigration rules about spouses seem to be targeted on brides from the subcontinent.

Yeah, why then, in light of your statement about "inadequate income or accommodation", can my friend marry the first cousin he's never met, bearing in mind he's on benefits and living in council accommodation? Doesn't the conclusion have to be; it's easier for a skint British Asian to settle his previously unseen new wife in the UK than it is for an affluent white British male to bring his long term Thai partner over for even a holiday?

[Richard W]

However, if she is no longer working in the bar, then her chances are good for a visit visa as well as for settlement.

I know of plenty of ex bargirls through boards such as this one who have successfully obtained a visit visa to the UK based purely on the belief by the ECO that they are a genuine visitor in a genuine relationship with their sponsor. Most of them returned to Thailand after their visit and are know back in the UK with settlement visas.

This seems to be a shift in policy. The argument for rejection used to be that as the girl was dependent on her sponsor, who was living in the UK, why should she return to Thailand rather than, say, marry her sponsor in the UK and apply to stay. Perhaps the shift has been caused by the ability to non-criminally marry at a registry office becoming dependent on one's immigration status.

I can remember when there were enough cases of unsuccessfully applying for a visit visa and then successfully applying for a settlement visa as a fiancée, that it was described as a racket, the racket being the extraction of visit visa application fees.

[Richard W]

Yeah, why then, in light of your statement about "inadequate income or accommodation", can my friend marry the first cousin he's never met, bearing in mind he's on benefits and living in council accommodation?

What were her job prospects? If they were good and the ECO was persuaded that they intended to stay married to one another, then that would have been enough for a settlement visa. What are they living on now?

[GucciLittlePiggy]

Yeah, why then, in light of your statement about "inadequate income or accommodation", can my friend marry the first cousin he's never met, bearing in mind he's on benefits and living in council accommodation?

What were her job prospects? If they were good and the ECO was persuaded that they intended to stay married to one another, then that would have been enough for a settlement visa. What are they living on now?

Er, benefits, which they'll be on for the rest of their lives. Her job prospects are poor, what with her not speaking a word of english.

[7by7]

However, if she is no longer working in the bar, then her chances are good for a visit visa as well as for settlement.

I know of plenty of ex bargirls through boards such as this one who have successfully obtained a visit visa to the UK based purely on the belief by the ECO that they are a genuine visitor in a genuine relationship with their sponsor. Most of them returned to Thailand after their visit and are know back in the UK with settlement visas.

This seems to be a shift in policy. The argument for rejection used to be that as the girl was dependent on her sponsor, who was living in the UK, why should she return to Thailand rather than, say, marry her sponsor in the UK and apply to stay. Perhaps the shift has been caused by the ability to non-criminally marry at a registry office becoming dependent on one's immigration status.

I can remember when there were enough cases of unsuccessfully applying for a visit visa and then successfully applying for a settlement visa as a fiancée, that it was described as a racket, the racket being the extraction of visit visa application fees.

A visitor to the UK cannot marry in the UK unless they have a marriage visit visa or obtain a certificate of approval from the Home Office (unless they marry in the Church of England, but that is being changed). Also the rules were changed a few years ago so that a visit visa can no longer be converted to settlement in the UK, the visitor would need to return home to apply for settlement if they wished to live in the UK after their marriage.

So current thinking is that if a couple are in a genuine relationship which may lead to marriage they would not want to jeopardise any future settlement application by overstaying a visit visa. A trawl through the visa and migration to other countries forum will find many cases were successful applicants have used this as their only real reason to return.

[7by7]

GLP,

1) If you do accept my challenge, and are successful, then you will have the satisfaction of proving me wrong and yourself right. If you don't, then there is only one conclusion that can be drawn.

2) So you have no direct experience of immigration or applying for a UK visa, and your whole argument is based on rumour and heresay!

3) I have looked at, and quoted, the figures: 90% success rate in Thailand, 50% in Pakistan. You stated that you don't believe them.

4) The rules on public funds clearly state that the sponsor of a spouse/partner may claim and receive any and all public funds to which he/she may be entitled; but cannot claim any extra due to their spouse/partner joining them. The rules also allow financial support from the sponsor's family, if necessary.

If you care to look in the visas and migration to other countries forum you will find posts from a member whose son is disabled and living on benefits. He recently successfully obtained a settlement visa for his Thai wife. So it is not just Pakistanis who can do this; and the conclusion must be that the same rules apply to all.

5) Your friend's wife may have little or no English at present, but in order to obtain ILR when her spouse visa expires in 2 years time she will need to demonstrate that she does have a minimum standard of English.

6) You say that it is difficult for "an affluent white British male" (you?) "to bring his long term Thai partner over for even a holiday" yet you admit that you have never even tried! Perhaps you should! A read through the visas and migration to other countries forum will show you that many have tried (most of them not very affluent!) and most have been successful.

[grantbkk]

A better question is why would a Thai even WANT to go to Britain? Nobody else does unless they are trying to escape from turmoil in their own country... hence you get a lot of displaced people from Pakistan, India and Aftrica. And, those that arrive bring all their problems with them and try to perpetuate it in Britain.

True 'dat!

[GucciLittlePiggy]

However, if she is no longer working in the bar, then her chances are good for a visit visa as well as for settlement.

I know of plenty of ex bargirls through boards such as this one who have successfully obtained a visit visa to the UK based purely on the belief by the ECO that they are a genuine visitor in a genuine relationship with their sponsor. Most of them returned to Thailand after their visit and are know back in the UK with settlement visas.

This seems to be a shift in policy. The argument for rejection used to be that as the girl was dependent on her sponsor, who was living in the UK, why should she return to Thailand rather than, say, marry her sponsor in the UK and apply to stay. Perhaps the shift has been caused by the ability to non-criminally marry at a registry office becoming dependent on one's immigration status.

I can remember when there were enough cases of unsuccessfully applying for a visit visa and then successfully applying for a settlement visa as a fiancée, that it was described as a racket, the racket being the extraction of visit visa application fees.

A visitor to the UK cannot marry in the UK unless they have a marriage visit visa or obtain a certificate of approval from the Home Office (unless they marry in the Church of England, but that is being changed). Also the rules were changed a few years ago so that a visit visa can no longer be converted to settlement in the UK, the visitor would need to return home to apply for settlement if they wished to live in the UK after their marriage.

So current thinking is that if a couple are in a genuine relationship which may lead to marriage they would not want to jeopardise any future settlement application by overstaying a visit visa. A trawl through the visa and migration to other countries forum will find many cases were successful applicants have used this as their only real reason to return.

Interesting report on BBC news tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8444360.stm

One foreign national marries another foreign nation. Neither have ever met each other before. Result? Both allowed to stay in the country.

One British national wants to marry a long-term-partner thai national and it's 'let's be VERY sure they're geniune' time!

Edited January 7, 2010 by GucciLittlePiggy

[GucciLittlePiggy]

GLP,

1) If you do accept my challenge, and are successful, then you will have the satisfaction of proving me wrong and yourself right. If you don't, then there is only one conclusion that can be drawn.

2) So you have no direct experience of immigration or applying for a UK visa, and your whole argument is based on rumour and heresay!

3) I have looked at, and quoted, the figures: 90% success rate in Thailand, 50% in Pakistan. You stated that you don't believe them.

4) The rules on public funds clearly state that the sponsor of a spouse/partner may claim and receive any and all public funds to which he/she may be entitled; but cannot claim any extra due to their spouse/partner joining them. The rules also allow financial support from the sponsor's family, if necessary.

If you care to look in the visas and migration to other countries forum you will find posts from a member whose son is disabled and living on benefits. He recently successfully obtained a settlement visa for his Thai wife. So it is not just Pakistanis who can do this; and the conclusion must be that the same rules apply to all.

5) Your friend's wife may have little or no English at present, but in order to obtain ILR when her spouse visa expires in 2 years time she will need to demonstrate that she does have a minimum standard of English.

6) You say that it is difficult for "an affluent white British male" (you?) "to bring his long term Thai partner over for even a holiday" yet you admit that you have never even tried! Perhaps you should! A read through the visas and migration to other countries forum will show you that many have tried (most of them not very affluent!) and most have been successful.

1. The conclusion is you're offering nothing, so I can't be bothered. Now if you were to offer me something - hypothetically, say, you'd do a poll of all your fellow boys and girls in red, asking them to declare their political alliegances, and post the results up for the board to discuss, then I will accept your challenge gladly.

2. As is your defence of the system.

3. Percentages like that are meaningless out of context. What counts are real figures - 30,000 thais (or whatever it was) versus millions from the sub continent. Points are awarded for things like existing family ties etc, something which an indigenous British male can't possibily fulfil when choosing to marry a girl from thailand. This is discrimination.

4. Then why has my friend told me his new bride gets her own benefits - she lends him money!

5. I wonder how many are rejected because of that? Not many, I suspect. If that is the case, how come dependents are allowed residency, dependents who are often elderly and are clearly never going to speak a word of English? I very much doubt my Thai wife's parents would be successful if they applied for residency here, but it's not uncommon for immigrants from other parts of the world to bring their dependents here. Again, discrimination.

6. Hypothetical - not me now, but who knows in the future. I want the same rights as my mate has, more if I'm being honest, as, unlike him, I actually like our way of life and want to preserve it.

[7by7]

Interesting report on BBC news tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8444360.stm

One foreign national marries another foreign nation. Neither have ever met each other before. Result? Both allowed to stay in the country.

Wrong!

Have you actually read all of the report? If you had you would have seen this bit

Immigration minister Phil Woolas said the government regretted the Law Lords' ruling and was looking again at the law. But he added: "Just because someone is married does not mean at all that their immigration status is granted.

"The registrars have a system of reporting where they think a marriage is not genuine. Those reports are then used by the immigration officials. The issue of marriage is different to immigration status. A visa will not be issued if there is reason to think the marriage is not genuine."

(My emphasis)

As for your other points:-

1) You have accused me of lying and contradicting myself. Justify those accusations or withdraw them.

2) My 'defence' of the system is based upon the immigration rules. Maybe you should read them.

3) As there are fewer applications in Thailand than there are from Pakistan, then the only way to compare success rates is to use the percentages.

Points are not awarded in spouse applications for family ties in the UK; Read the rules. Even if they were, as an indigenous British male surely you have family ties in the UK?

4) I have no idea why your friends wife lends him money, nor where she gets it from. What I do know is that she cannot claim public funds. Read the rules.

If she is claiming public funds to which she is not entitled, then she is breaking the law. As you feel so strongly about it, will you report her?

5) Any application for indefinite leave to remain in the UK would be rejected if the applicant did not provide the required proof of their English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic ability; unless the applicant is under 18, over 65, has a mental or physical disability which prevents them from learning another language or meets one of the other exemptions (see here). Read the rules.

Any immigrant to the UK can apply to have their parents or other family member join them. The requirements are pretty strict (read the rules) but if met then the visa will be issued. This is as true for Thais as it is for any other nationality.

6) You do have the same rights as your mate does. Read the rules.

Your comments about my 'fellow boys and girls in red' (presumably meaning 'pinko lefties'), that you want more rights than a non white and your assumption that because someone is not white he wants to destroy our way of life give a clear indication of your political allegiance.